SPEAKER_06

The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.

SPEAKER_04

The distant individual with a big beard who no one ever sees. He is irrelevant to the vast majority of our lives, except when we want things, and then we might send in a request. He may reward us if we're good, which is why he's making a list and checking it twice. He's gonna find out who's naughty and nice. And while we seem to know next to nothing about him, he is apparently conducting round-the-clock surveillance of our lives. He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake. And when you think rationally about this person for more than five seconds, you must conclude that he is a deeply creepy individual, and you are not even for a moment tempted to believe in him. That's of course how most people view God. Um most people see God as a kind of Santa in the sky, a distant figure, an impersonal moralist, an utter irrelevance to our lives. But clearly Christians have seen something different in Jesus, or we wouldn't believe in him. You see, everyone stops believing in Santa when they grow up and examine the facts. But millions of people around the world start believing in Jesus when they grow up and examine the facts. That's because Jesus is very different to Santa. He is the God who has actually shown up in time and space and can be investigated. And I recommend that you do that. Pick up a biography of Jesus, a gospel, and start reading. But as you do, you'll encounter a God who is the very opposite of Santa. Here is the God who doesn't give presence, he gives himself. He doesn't reward the good, he draws near to the broken. Jesus is the God you can believe in. Every year, it's just you know it's Christmas. Absolutely. When Ren starts ranting about Santa.

SPEAKER_03

We're not covering any controversial topics today at all.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. For the Christmas and Brexit. Yeah, yeah. I was doing a carol service recently, and someone said, You're not gonna do your Santa thing, are you? Because there might be children here. I'm like, it's alright. I'm not gonna say he doesn't exist. I'm just gonna say he's a monstrous legalist.

SPEAKER_03

That's that's all. Absolutely. Yeah. So is it wasn't it? Um did you get some it was at Four Kinds of Christmas? There's a bit where you say like the kids are naive or something. Yes, yeah, the kids are naive. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I do believe or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I see through the curtain.

SPEAKER_03

We played that in our Carol service that year and um I think it had I can't remember, I think we had discussion about it beforehand and we were like, no one the kids aren't gonna no one's gonna notice. So like they probably did. And we destroyed the news of Christmas, but yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04

So no yeah, so well, but then it's good news because the monstrous legalist doesn't exist. But Jesus is different. So it's funny, so Premier Christian Radio, they did a uh uh uh an interview with me one year ago, and I did an hour-long conversation with Sam Hales, and they clipped 90 seconds out of that video and turned it into what's the gospel in 90 seconds. Yeah, and which we've done the animation for, yeah. Which we've done the animation for. You should check out the animation, it's great because it's um it doesn't have my face. And but it's yeah, it it it did really well, and then they decided, well, let's get Glenn to do 90 seconds on lots of things. So stay tuned over the next year, they'll be releasing a whole bunch of videos.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, okay. So it's quite a lot out of an hour. Quite a lot of things. Well, no, I went back. And then they made it I see, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, literally I said, Can you do the question of suffering in 90 seconds?

SPEAKER_03

I was gonna say it's amazing that you answered so many questions in the space of 90 seconds, you know, every time.

SPEAKER_04

Just a skill. What a coinky thing. But uh yeah, so I went up uh and they what was the last one? Oh yeah, is Jesus a myth? Yeah. So I did I did that that they they released that one like a month ago. Not long ago, yeah, I remember that one coming up. And this is the latest one about is uh God just Santa for grown-ups? And what's interesting is that you know it gets posted on like the Unbelievable like Facebook page, which is an interesting Facebook page to be part of. I love the unbelievable show. The Facebook page is feisty.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah? Um, yeah, a lot of yeah, you get quite a lot of people who are just atheists who tune into things and want to chip in.

SPEAKER_04

Oh yeah. Um this is what I say about Justin Briley, he's actually reaching non-Christians in a way that few evangelists in our country are. Yeah. I th I think he actually on a weekly basis reaches more unbelievers than any other evangelist I can think of.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, and and when we went to the Jerusalem Awards and uh you know had a chat with him for about five or ten minutes and um I was saying, you know, I'm amazed how how many kind of get he gets really high quality guests on. You know, it's not like just he's not just some random bloke getting, you know, some guy from the church and you know the atheist down the road, he's getting big names on, and so people people want to see people like that, you know. The atheists will tune in to see, you know, their their team and the big thinkers and the Christians will tune in for their big thinkers as well. Yeah. Um so it's yeah, I think I think he does a great job and it's a really great show, lots of good stuff going on.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, and it was the podcast that really is the reason for that, because you know, it it sort of sits on Premier Christian radio and it goes out on a Saturday afternoon, but by far the largest audience is this international audience that podcasting creates, and uh yeah, and they're doing really exciting stuff with the big conversations, so yeah, do check out uh the unbelievable podcast. But um yeah, so this this uh Santa vs Jesus kind of 90 seconds got shared on on that page. And it's just interesting, like you you try to address this issue. No, honestly, God's not just like Santa in the sky. Um and literally the the comeback is nobody is. Nobody is, yeah. Nobody is. You know, and and you're like celestial North Korea as uh Christopher Hitchens wants to say. Yeah, no, exactly. And and it's kind of it kind of betrays a view of the God that many atheists don't believe in. Yeah. I think the god that many atheists don't believe in is an individual within the created order, far away, um, watching and waiting to, you know, checking his list and checking it twice. Checking it twice. Yeah. And that that is the God that they don't believe in. And you're like, well, welcome to the club. Yep, me neither. Me neither. Um and then just pointing out stuff like, you know, actually I've I've met countless people who are Christians now because having become an adult, they've looked into the evidence and now they believe in God.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um I I've never met any adults who having not believed in Santa during his childhood years came to believe in Santa. You know, yep, that's very fair.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

Um the y yeah, that should be a really uh you know obvious asymmetry between God and Santa. But just yeah, just the I the idea that God is a located individual within the created order is pretty much, you know, the the God that most atheists I mate reject. And you're just kinda like, no, like it's it's not as though gods like the Loch Ness monster, it's not as though gods like the abominable snowman or Santa or the flying spaghetti monster, like you know, we exist to this god the same way that Hamlet exists to Shakespeare. You know, and for Shakespeare for for for Hamlet to say, yeah, but where is Shakespeare? I can't see him. Um you don't you don't point to stage left. No, no, there's this little corner, you know, it's it's it's actually, you know, behind the scenes, back of stage left. That's that's where God is. You're like Nope, nope, we believe in something totally different. So anyway, we'll see if this little 90 seconds does some good in scattering the seed far and wide. Yeah. Sure, it would generate some discussion. Yeah. You know, actually that Santa vs. Jesus video that we did, so I did if you're if you're not familiar, I've I've done three different versions of the anti-santy ranty. There was the there was the first one that we did that you played on the show a couple of weeks ago that we recorded in church. In the church. Which is just you know, it's nice to watch that to see how far Speak Life has come. It's nice to see. Because that must have been like twenty twelve or something.

SPEAKER_03

It's your first one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Kind of, yeah. I think I in twenty eleven I did a um uh the King's English sort of video. But yeah, it was it was very homemade, that uh anti Santi Ranty to begin with. And then we did an animation and then we did an updated version uh in about twenty fourteen. But but having that twenty fourteen version up my sleeve has been really helpful in lots of online conversations where people say, well, God's just Santa for grown-ups, isn't he? Yep. Um you can say no. Here you go. So if you check out uh speaklife.org.uk slash festivals, um you'll see the the Santa vs. Jesus video and lots of other content that can help you reach out this Christmas. That's speaklife.org.uk slash festivals. So that's um controversy number one. Is it controversy or controversy? What do you say?

SPEAKER_03

Uh there was some controversy. Yeah, controversy.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, let's you take controversy, I'll take cont controversy.

SPEAKER_03

Controversy.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, trust you to come up with a totally discount. You're putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. Um So having gone from the Santa controversy, uh we are now going to uh strap in, strap put our helmets on. Yeah, my word. And dive into Briggs. Reading between the lines, we're not gonna do that. That was my bad. I just clicked on the wrong thing. Like So last night we released a video. Yeah. Um what was what was the video title?

SPEAKER_03

Uh Ten Questions to Get Beyond Brexit Battles. Yes. That's the actual title, I think, in the end. So questions, not answers. No, we don't claim to have any answers. No, we have all the questions, but we've got literally nothing. What would you to respond with? No.

SPEAKER_04

What would what would you say was the goal in uh releasing this video last night?

SPEAKER_03

Uh well, I guess we everyone's talking about Brexit. Yeah. And we mentioned Brexit a few weeks ago in passing, with a bit of uh our comedy hats on, just you know, here are our thoughts on it, tumbleweed. Yeah, crickets flows by.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um actually Which we thought was funny. Um and a number of people kind of said, you know, oh, please do have some thoughts on Brexit because everybody's talking about it and stuff. And we we we say with our videos, don't we, that we want to do the water cooler moments, you know, the things we're other people talking about. And even though people might be a bit fed up of it, everybody is talking about it, you can't get away from it. And you know, just like with any other subject we talk about from the news, we we want to talk about it in a way that Christians can use it to therefore engage on a on a deeper level than just chatting about you know um the culture, but actually getting to Jesus. And so hopefully the questions in the Brexit video are there to say, well, rather than just you know, when we talk about Brexit going Oh, aren't we all fed up of this and having a moan? Um why don't we use those conversations productively to kind of probe a bit deeper into people's thoughts and things?

SPEAKER_04

Um, it's really interesting when you mention that because like um in Philippians two verse fourteen and fifteen it says, Do all things without complaining or arguing, and then you'll shine like a star in the universe. Um and it's in the context of of uh holding out the word of life and pouring yourself out in in mission. So it it's this very evangelistic kind of method. And what's the evangelistic method? Don't complain or argue, which is so difficult because like social what is social media? Social media is with design for complaining and arguing. My Facebook post is a complaint and then the comments that's where you get the arguing, you know, and and so like the Apostle Paul in in Philippians, in a letter all about joy and finding the secret of contentment in any in every circumstance, is like, okay, if you resist complaining and arguing, then you will shine like a star in the universe. And I think I think that is interesting, that against the black backdrop of complaining and arguing, if you actually happen to be a person of peace, joy and hope, when the backdrop is complaining and arguing, like that's different. You'll stick out, but you won't just stick out like a sort of nine.

SPEAKER_03

Which is interesting because so many people tend to think then they the default is we're all like the we're all the ones who are peace and hope and lovely things, and then there's all these other people who who are, you know, that's the twist, that's the distortion. Yes. Is the complaining and the moaning, but the reality is the complaining and the moaning is pretty much our default position, and then you know anything else is it is rich for Brigazeteers to call remainers Ramoners.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then to moan about it. Yeah, but that's so how can we be different? How can we be those who, without complaining or arguing, actually shine like stars in the universe? Well, here's here are some suggestions, and we're gonna work our way through these ten questions that we might want to start asking in a conversation. So should we have a look at the first couple? Yep. Question one. Are you optimistic about the future? So many Brexit conversations slide into questions of ultimate destiny and hope. On the one hand, people often have Martin Luther King Jr.'s view: the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. So they really believe in progress, and that maybe they're on the side of progress, they're on the right side of history. But where does that belief come from? If the world is a random flow of purposeless cause and effect, why do you think history is headed somewhere? I believe in Jesus, and his story shapes history. I think he'll come to bring about ultimate justice, but without Jesus, where do you ground your optimism? Question two.

SPEAKER_03

Are you pessimistic about the world? When Brexit comes up, hopelessness is not far away. Many people think the world is headed to hell in a handbasket. You'll find a lot of pessimism around when Brexit is mentioned. But again, we should ask, why? Where's the pessimism from? It might be really well founded, but it might also betray a view of the world that says things will only get worse and then you die. It might be an opportunity to talk about a greater hope.

SPEAKER_04

So that's the first couple of questions are about this sense of where does our moments now fit in the grander scheme of things. So are you optimistic about the future? Because you think that you know history is heading towards some, you know, wonderful denouement? Or you know, whenever I'm lost for a word, I just I just reach for some French. It's certain I don't know. Denouement et coup de théâtre. Um you think you think that you know life is heading towards uh this finale. It's all it's all French.

SPEAKER_03

Save me from with a baguette and uh Voulez-vous du beurre.

SPEAKER_04

Um de fa um Yes, you might think that history is heading somewhere good, or you might think that history's heading somewhere bad. Um how do we engage people on on those sorts of issues? What what do you reckon about this this sort of historical question?

SPEAKER_03

Well, we were talking, weren't we, about sometimes whether whether we have a a sense of uh perspective on stuff, you know, we often think, don't we? I mean I think if as a Christian like we we hopefully we've got a a a more eternal perspective and we we have a longer view in mind or we should do. And so the thing that's kind of struck me as we thought about you know what's gonna happen next, um and we'll come onto that maybe in a moment as well, um, is you know, if it is very, very bleak, you know, and the reality is that this will be what it's like for us for however long you know, it could very well be that we will just live this generation or these few generations will live through a a a season of slump where quality of life isn't as good as it was. It's still gonna be very good, you know. Let's not be you know blinded Westerners and here we are, yeah, it's also terrible. Yes. Um caviar's run out, you know. But um hopefully, you know, if we live through a period like this, you look back over history and you say that well there were people who lived to periods where life never got better, you know. Um but if you don't have a longer view, if you think life this is just you know, this 70, 80 years is what you get and that's it, yeah, then you're gonna be really miffed that like that this is happening and you're gonna want to fight tooth and claw to get make things better for you, for your life to accumulate and get what you can.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yeah. Um so with a shrunken sense of your horizon, like the here and now, like really matters and I mean obviously economics matters, and poverty matters, and and if people uh are going backwards and and and slumping further into poverty, that's a real problem. We we we want to um have all the compassion in the world for that. But if our if our horizon is literally just this generation, um then economics becomes everything. And and if our only horizon is this little blip, we won't actually look up from our little moment in time and space and realize that we're actually on top of a an in an incredible mountain of privilege and world mountain day. Um it is World Mountain Day. So you know. Stay tuned next year for our seasonal video about mountains.

SPEAKER_03

How can you use World Mountain Day to reach for those watercooler moments?

SPEAKER_04

Wow. Jerusalem is like Mount Zion surrounded by the hills and library. Writes itself.

SPEAKER_03

So where was I paying money to Patreon now? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Our crowdfunder for World Mountain Days beginning. So if you if your horizon is just you know you and your generation, then not only are you gonna fight tooth and claw for everything now, and not only you're not gonna have a sense of the future, you're not gonna have a sense of the past and actually how much better you've had it than every other human being who's ever lived on planet Earth. Um and so we collected together like a a a few graphs to show people um where we actually sit um in terms of a a few different metrics like violence. Um yeah, so violence, here we go, that's homicide. So starting in the year thirteen hundred.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. So if you're if you're listening on the podcast, we've got some diagrams up. Yes. And it basically shows how many homicides was that annual homicides per hundred thousand people.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um and from the year Would you say the trend was up or down, Paul? What would you think?

SPEAKER_03

I'd say largely down. Largely down. Basically you've got w what basically a drop off a cliff. Yes. Um as the homicide rate in Europe has been plummeting since the thirteen hundreds.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Uh it does it it does take a tiny little uptick at the end, but I I think that's kind of a hundred million violent deaths in the twentieth century. I think that might be a problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But on the whole, you gotta look at that and say that's a that's a positive change there.

SPEAKER_04

Right. So the violence graph goes down, and then we've got an income uh graph. GDP, yeah. So look yeah, there we go, GDP. So this is um in England and the United Kingdom since about the same time, since 1270. And uh again, Paul, for those listening in, uh would you say that the income graph goes up or down?

SPEAKER_03

Uh definitely goes up. Well and and and interestingly, I mean you've got a you've got a very kind of gradual rise, haven't you? Yeah. Through all the way up until about 1800.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And then suddenly Industrial Revolution. Bang! Like uh it's like climbing a vertical face, you know, isn't it? Almost goes up and up and up and up and up.

SPEAKER_04

It's a hockey stick, people. It's a hockey stick. Um so so income up, and let's have a look at infant mortality.

SPEAKER_03

Um here we go. Here we go. Infant mortality rate, so deaths under one.

SPEAKER_04

So this is just in the last this is since 1930. Um so sort of an infant mortality rate of in 1930 about 60.

SPEAKER_03

Uh probably nearly up to yeah, nearly up to 70 there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, up to 70 at one point. So seventy per 1,000. That's that's a lot, isn't it? Which is quite a lot. Less than 100 years ago, that's what you were facing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But that was in 1930, and you can see well there's been a there's a bit of a spike in the forties. Yeah. Um, like maybe just stretched resources. But then it's again it plummeted massively through to 2010, it goes up to, which it's down probably uh, you know, what what's that gonna be? You can't tell two or three. Maybe lower, yeah, yeah. So it's definitely well under ten, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

So And that's just that's just massive infant mort mortality down to to that degree. When when you were you know a sixty fold decrease in infant mortality is just uh that's just stunning. You know, you go from a time when you might expect that one of your siblings won't make it out of out of adulthood to that being uh just a absolute rarity.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. You know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well you don't know how well i in in a sense, y you know, you don't how know how good you've got it. Right. That's the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Right. Um and we've got we've got one more movie life expectancy. Life expectancy, and this is for Latin America, Southeast Asia, South Asia, and sub Saharan. Africa. So we're not talking about um the West, not talking about Europe, North America, Australia. Um but again, Paul, for those listening at home, uh what'd you say the graphs are going up or down?

SPEAKER_03

Uh they've all gone up, haven't they? Since this is nineteen sixty up to two thousand and ten. Yeah. So yeah, everyone's kind of grown, you know, or got a longer age uh life expectancy there. Right. So what what's what have they gone up? Probably about fifteen years each? Yeah. You know, maybe maybe.

SPEAKER_04

Latin America's gone from fifty-five to seventy five percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Some have gone a little bit more. So on the whole, I mean there's one or two blips there, but again, the the trend is up, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um so now there's many graphs that we didn't show. Um when you talk about a hockey stick graph, sometimes people talk about CO2 emissions, for instance. That's a hockey stick graph too. Because massively since the Industrial Revolution, that's gone through the roof. Um there are there are you know extinctions of animals, for instance. Again, that's gone up, and that's that's not a happy thing. Um incarceration of of people has been, you know, on the rise, especially in the in the United States. So there's there's all sorts of graphs that people say um it's a mixed picture. And so someone like Stephen Pinker comes and and writes a book called The Better Angels of Our Nature and starts to talk about how there is human progress, people, and and s you you would much rather live in 2018 than in 1918, wouldn't you? And you'd much rather that than live in 1718. No doubt about it. Um and so he he makes those progress arguments, and then people come back on him and sort of say, well, there are other graphs that you could draw. You know, what about what about the what about the millions of babies killed in the womb, for instance? Um and that's absolutely true. But but I think we do need to remind ourselves, especially when all the all the talk is of catastrophe, um, that actually we're living in such privileged times.

SPEAKER_03

And I wonder whether it it is that thing, isn't it? Of the the c because the questions are, are you hopeful about the world, are you pessimistic about the world? And I think when we lose the sense of how well off we we've had it or we've got it, um even the smallest decrease then feels like a step backwards. And I mean you see it uh in uh you see it you can see it in individuals, you know, uh someone who who gets very used to living a particular lifestyle because they have a certain job with a certain income and they they use that income you know for that lifestyle. And things that, you know, previously that you know you you know you had a job and you you could live off of you know twenty thousand when you started earning forty five thousand pounds a year, suddenly you found you couldn't live off anything less than forty five thousand pounds a year because you changed your lifestyle. Right. And then if you watch and then it seems like a disaster when you go down to thirty thousand pounds, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Um Right. Downsizing seems just impossible.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like well, that's the worst thing, isn't it? Because what a step back in your status, you know, to um you don't downgrade your phone, you know, your your mobile phone package. Oh no, no, some people do. Well I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

I do, but it's i it's almost this unthinkable thing.

SPEAKER_03

Of course you upgrade Yeah, but then I use that to make myself feel superior to other people. Because I'm like these idiots just paying for their monthly phone contracts, just throwing their money down the toilet, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. But there's all sorts of things that we all do to Oh no, absolutely, absolutely. So one thing we need to do is get a a bigger sense of a a further horizon uh on things and and as well when we're talking about are you hopeful about the world or are you pessimistic about the world? Um I I often teach about sort of three views of history. There's there's there's three different ways that people tend to think about history. There's the circle, there's the frown, and there's the smile.

SPEAKER_03

I do it for people in case yeah, for those who can't see, Glenn is making the motion of a circle. And then the frown.

SPEAKER_04

Glenn's actually pulling a frowny face. You can probably hear that. Glenn's speaking with a frowny face. And then a smiley face. And those are the three views of history. So a more eastern view of history is um the idea that it's just karma and comes around. In samsara, you know, the the cycle of birth and rebirth, and that's that's and even within Buddhism that sort of says, hey, let's stop the cycle of birth and rebirth, I want to get off, even then your only hope of of of uh getting out of that is to dissolve into the ocean of being like a drop of water, and that's nirvana. So actually this this view of history as like a cycle is really a view that um nothing progresses, nothing really changes. It all just goes around and around. And therefore the clever move, if that's the way history is running, the clever move is to detach. So mindfulness, meditation, don't you know, don't get on this train. This train's not going anywhere. Why would you get on the train? On the ring road. It's just a ring road. It's going nowhere. It's going nowhere. So why don't you just, you know, stop at the motorway services. Stop at the Cobb a costa. I highly recommend the Hazelnut Latine. Um and and that's it. And you detach from the historical process, you don't really throw yourself into it. And so that's that's one view of history that leads to one kind of engagement. But then if you think of the tragic view, Julius Caesar, for instance, um, he was the first person who began teaching that the day begins in night, you know. So before then, we had the biblical view, and and ancient cultures all shared that biblical view that you begin with evening, and then there's the triumph of the light, right? It's a very hopeful view of the day. You know, you begin at dusk, but then through the darkness, the light wins. That that was the classical view of the day until Julius Caesar, right? And he was like, Well, that's not the way life works, right? You emerge from the darkness, you enjoy your brief moment in the sun, and then you plunge down into utter nihilism, right? That was Cheery Fella. Cheery fella, and you know, he you know, killed a thousand ghouls and enslaves a thousand more because that's if if you have that tragic view of life, the frowny face, the hill that you climb, then really you do want to engage with history, but you want to engage with history to win. Yeah, to get the most whilst you're on that hump. Right. And you grasp and climb and scratch and take and kill and get. And that's the tragic view of history that leads to a a kind of engagement with history that is, okay, we're we're in a war and we're gonna win, right? So that's that's the tragic view, and and and really it's it's a kind of a modern atheist view as well. Um this is you know his This is all there is, and we've come from nothing, we're headed nowhere. Enjoy it while it lasts, right? Um and so that's the that's the frowny face, that's the tragedy. Um and so you fight to win. But then the third view of history is is kind of the Christian view, which is the smile, right? Um though we do go through the darkness, we come out and the light wins, the light is stronger. Um and so aga as against the Eastern view, the Christian says, no, you can engage with history because it's heading somewhere, and it's and it's worth trying to be in on what God is doing in this world, and it is heading towards justice. And so Martin Luther King Jr. said um that famous line that um history the arc of history is long but it bends towards justice. Um so he's kind of doing the smiley face thing. The arc of history is long, and it was long, and you know, certainly black people in in the United States really knew about the depths and the and the darkness of of slavery and then discrimination and Jim Crow laws and all that. Um but he had this Christian hope that the arc of history bends towards um uh bends towards justice, and therefore he wanted to get on board with God's project and and and and engage with that with that process, and so that that was how he wanted to engage with the world. And and maybe with Brexit there's a there's a chance to to go to 30,000 feet and just ask people what is your view of history and why? You know, do because the the view that most often surfaces is the world's going to hell in a handbasket. Sure. Um but also there there is a kind of a an optimism and a utopianism at times that sort of says we're on the right side of history and um But for both those things you just want to ask, well why? Why do you why do you think why do you think positively, why do you think negatively? Um And while while in the West it's very popular to think that the arc of history is long and it bends towards justice, you don't have a right to say that without Jesus.

SPEAKER_03

How do you know? Literally no reason to think it's gonna get any better.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's the whole, you know, the sun will come out tomorrow, you're like, well Not on your view, not necessarily. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It'll it'll explode tomorrow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's what you're aiming for, right? You know, that's where we're going.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe on issues of uh hope, on issues of the future, you can get into fruitful conversations around those sorts of things. So those are the first two questions. Are you hopeful about the world or are you pessimistic about the world? Uh and then in our next clip, we're gonna have a look at three more questions. Take it away, Paul. Question three Is politics important to you? It takes up the column inches of our newspapers and it floods our news channels, but how much does Westminster or Brussels affect us day to day? How much importance do we give to those power centres? I mean, who has the power?

SPEAKER_00

If the right people don't have power, do you know what happens? The wrong people get it.

SPEAKER_04

Is Westminster or Brussels really where power lies? It might be, but it's worth talking about.

SPEAKER_03

Number four, what are the personal effects for you? Just be curious. Maybe they have insights into the financial world or imports and exports. Or maybe they're a farmer or northern Irish, or involved in fishing, or many other areas very closely connected to Brexit. You might be able to learn something on the ground about the issues, putting a face to the generalities we often speak in. But if there aren't any specifics, but only a generalized view, it might be worth pressing into that. What what should we be concerned about day to day? What really matters? That brings us to question five.

SPEAKER_04

What really matters to you in 2019 and beyond? Here you want to get beyond the issue of Brexit, start talking about the important things in your life. At a local level, family and neighbourhood and church and our everyday interests take up so much more of our time. And at an international level, the good news of Jesus is going forwards. The church, the largest sociological phenomenon the world has ever seen, is growing. You won't read about that in the newspapers, but the headlines don't always capture what's most important. So those were those are three uh different questions. Uh how important is politics in your life? How are you affected personally by these issues, and what really matters to you um as you go forwards? So what what what's your sense of of where the rubber hits the road for people with with Brexit and and how personally they are affected by it?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, good question. I mean I mean, thinking about how important is politics in people's in our lives, I mean I was thinking, you know, for me, I I mean I don't think to myself, oh I don't feel I'm politic particularly political. But then I was you know, realised that in the car or in the news I'm often reading about the politics and thinking like, oh, this is important stuff, you know. Um and so the these whatever goes on, whether it's Brexit or other things, these things will make a difference, you know, who who we elect and the decisions they make about you know where they're gonna spend money, you know, and yada yada yada. Um but um and I kind of assumed for everybody was that clued up on what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. Um but then like the other day in some other context that you know someone joked about you know, like, oh we'll have a hard border or backstop, they were using it in in something else context, another person just didn't register. They were like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_03

And we were like, you know, the backstop.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, Brexit, like Northern Ireland, hard border, and they were like, No. And I was just like, How can you have no idea what's going on? Like, literally, have you been living under a rock? Like I bet they were much happier though. Ignorance is bliss, I'm telling you. But like, um, you know, it it does it really affect people's lives, you know, uh and and m I don't know whether it's gonna affect me, that's the thing. I don't think anyone knows. You know, so so even though I think politics is important, because it does make a difference, I was thinking from day to day, do I really notice the things they do? You know, do I notice the difference in my actual life? Right. But then for Brexit, they're saying that, you know, potentially people are stockpiling food and medicines and they were gonna have lorries backed up down the motorway. And the reality is I don't know whether that's gonna happen. Of course, if it does happen and I go to the shop and suddenly I'm like, well there's no food here, then I might go, yeah, actually this has had a bit of an effect, hasn't it? Yeah. Um or if I was sick, you know, I I don't really get sick, I'm generally quite healthy, like um like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable, that's what I'm like But um uh I just don't get ill. But um if I was if I was someone who was who who was dependent on drugs, you know, uh often and regularly, yeah, if it turns out that this will really screw up a supply chain, that would be that'd be quite important, wouldn't it? Yeah But the reality is I don't think any of us know. Yeah. You know, because and we'll come on to it later about who do we trust, we just don't know. Everyone says, Oh, this is gonna happen, and someone goes, No, that's not gonna happen, what a load of nonsense.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Which is why it's important to to ask about like how it will affect individuals, because if you're Northern Irish, it it it would have like a much deeper effect. If you're a Northern Irish farmer or a Northern Irish or or any kind of fisher person, um then it's it's gonna you know it impact you if if your whole business is imports and exports.

SPEAKER_03

Um if you you know, I guess potentially there's a lot of businesses who people spend time going abroad and whether that will be an issue, you know, visas and travel, whether that will be hampered or more expensive, who knows?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And there are a lot of people saying, well, it it affects the poorest people in the in the country, and therefore, you know, Brexit is is the immoral option. Um but but actually if you break down um how people voted by income, um those with less income voted more for Brexit. Um So that that's a that's a complicated that's a complicated one. But um it it is just interesting the the fact that our world is flooded with politics. Like I think I think you could imagine a daily publication called a newspaper that did not cover like that did not was not taken up 75% with politics. I think you could imagine such a such a publication. Like like why why why the weighting of stuff, you know? Yeah. When actually, you know, what goes on in Google and Facebook is probably gonna like rule our lives.

SPEAKER_03

More so it could yeah, it could well be that it's the the stuff that's just daily, so you know, like why why don't people put in the newspaper, you know, wow, so many years of peace. You know, this is brilliant. Yes. You know, things are great, you know, you know, things go well. You know, it's the whole that's not a story, it's like you know, man walks dog, you know, dog walks man type thing. One's a story and one's really not, you know, and and that's what people go to the newspaper for.

SPEAKER_04

You have a war correspondent, you don't have a peace correspondent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, I suppose. Still peaceful here.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, still peaceful. And hooray for that. And you don't get the you know, those graphs that we just showed where infant mortality rates are plummeting and life expectancy is going up. You that like that's rarely headline news because it's incremental and it and it's just it's it's an ongoing thing, and the you you don't really you you don't notice the good that is happening, but you you sure as heck notice when you know when something's taken away from you. Um and also people talk about there's an evolutionary reason, so evolutionary psychologists sort of say, well, if you think about it, if if our ancestors were um uh not worried about extinction level events, then the first gone extinct, right? And so like just naturally, biologically, we're we're kind of wired to overestimate the threat in the future. Um and therefore, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, right? Yeah. Like on on on on newspapers and all that kind of stuff, and and that actually things that are more threatening uh are gonna trigger us and and get us to be concerned and buy more newspapers. And there is an industry that that's you know i i it tips you towards fear, actually. Um But yeah, uh but yeah, is politics that important in our lives? Yeah, it absolutely is. And and people will always point you back to, well, you know, one Timothy says you when and one Peter, you know, tells you to pray for your um your rulers and and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03

And the authorities, you know, bear the sword as well, which you know, we're we're expecting our our government and law, you know, the people who make the laws to enforce laws and to bring about justice in our nations and whatnot.

SPEAKER_04

So Yes. But it is i yeah, it is just interesting that um surely the biggest news story in the world should be that the greatest sociological phenomenon the world has ever seen that's actually like transforming lives and crossing the globe and crossing every border is the church. And it's bigger today than it was yesterday and it'll be bigger again tomorrow, and this is this is this is headline news in heaven. Yeah. It's it's not headline news here. Um But I I think some of these questions, how important is politics in your life, how are you personally affected, what really matters to you going forwards, um, is is an opportunity to start getting to talk about, you know what, actually what matters is is my family and my local community and this passion of mine. Um and it just gets people off the the headline chasing. You know, I I think I said on a previous uh live cast that I was on the train recently and there were two pieces of women talking. Two professional women in their twenties, and one of them just said, Oh, it's been a horrible year, and the other one said, Oh, babes, why? She said, Was it something did something happen? Was it something personal that happened? She says, Oh no, well, you know, first Alan Rickman died, and and then it was David Bowie. She said, Babes, that was 2016. To which her response was then, yeah, but there's probably been some people die this year too. I'm sitting next to trying not to burst out laughing.

SPEAKER_03

And they were the MPs for witches, Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_04

But there can be a sense when you just follow the headlines. Like like this woman had lived under headlines that were two and a half years old about David Bowie. And that's why 2018 was a terrible year.

SPEAKER_03

That was twenty-few years old.

SPEAKER_04

But it is just interesting how that steady diet of the media does change what we think is important.

SPEAKER_03

If if you s I mean, it's like just with in a group of people, you know, i if one person in the group or eve or it doesn't need to be just one, you know, is in the in the group is continually just saying how awful everything is, you're gonna hit a point where you just feel like everything is awful. You know. Yeah. Yeah. That person who just kind of sucks the life out of everything and you know, brings it down. Right. And if that that's actually what the newspapers and the media do, if they're continually putting that message out there that this is what everything is like, the world is terrif in in news today, the world is still terrible. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, which is why it's good to remind yourself of Philippians too, that even back in his day, everyone was doing everything according to complaining and arguing. And that was the black backdrop. And and so here's the calling as Christians is to be people of hope and peace and joy. And then you'll shine like a star, you know, against that backdrop. Um So those are um some more questions that you can ask, and then uh here are questions six and seven.

SPEAKER_03

Six and seven. What's your view of politicians? Can't you morons do anything right? Yep, that's how we tend to see politicians. Briefly, we put politicians on a pedestal, but only for about four and a half seconds. Then we want to bring them down.

SPEAKER_06

Borders Borders forces We think of politicians as liars and fools.

SPEAKER_03

Politics is just show business for ugly people, right? Well, where do we get those views from? Actually, all of us deep down want a ruler to make everything perfect. We expect our leaders to be a messiah figure. So of course they'll disappoint us. There's only one messiah who can meet our expectations. Which leads us to Question seven.

SPEAKER_04

Do you think you or I could do a better job? I'd like to see you do better. This is vital. Many of my Facebook friends think that they could solve Brexit when they can't even spell it. We can definitely have grievances with the way that many people have acted throughout this whole process, but it's important that we recognize that with every pointed finger there are three fingers pointing straight back at us. In the Brexit OmniShamples, we can see the problems with the whole human race, me included. But unfortunately, we don't tend to think like that. We tend to think that we're fine, it's the other guys that are the problem. So, how do you tend to think of politicians, Paul?

SPEAKER_03

Well, you know, the it's the classic uh the phrase, isn't it? They say, How do you know when a politician's lying, you know, their lips are moving, that's what they say, don't they? And that's the kind of classic thing. I think is particularly in in the UK, I don't know how how so much in the rest of the world, but Australia's even more cynical. Oh really, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we'd we generally feel quite negatively about our politicians, you know, and we we think quite poorly of them that they're opportunistic and out for themselves. Um we're not, but yeah. Yeah obviously not. But um you know, I was saying earlier that you know we've been uh my wife and I have just started watching Designated Survivor on Netflix with um I was gonna say with Jack Bauer Keith Sutherland. Um and you know, he's this politician who's become the president, and you know, one of the guys describes him and says, you know, here's someone who values um uh values service over ambition and integrity over expediency. Um and this idea of course that that's what politicians should be like, that they're there to serve people and they should have integrity, not just doing the easy thing and whatnot. And I think often though, we look at our politicians and we think that's not what they're like at all. We we think they're out for themselves and and whatnot. And I mean we were talking, you know, I was uh saying earlier that here we are in the middle of this m this shambles, you know, this kind of shambolic affair that's going on, and it just seems bonkers to me that in the midst of that, someone like Boris Johnson can take a day out to do a photo shoot of himself running through fields of wheat to mock the Prime Minister. And you think, like, are you really are you really gonna use this this kind of crisis we're in simply for your own personal gain to try and further yourself up the rungs of the ladder? And even people in the party I mean, I I'm I'm you know, whatever happens to Theresa May, you think, is this really the time to try and oust tow and get up to the top yourself? Like that seems to be people self-serving rather than thinking about the country.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um So Benjamin Disraeli said that politics is about climbing the greasy pole. That's what it's all about. Climbing the greasy pole. But like, why why would we hold them to that standard? Why would we ever think that our rulers should be servants? You know, and I think in every other culture you'd just be like, Well, your rulers rule, right? Yeah. They don't serve, they rule. So why have we got this sense that actually our rulers should serve? Mm-hmm. It's actually really weird, you know. And it, you know, it's it's Jesus. Yeah, yeah. In a word, the Son of Man did not come to and interestingly in the Old King James, in um Mark ten verse forty-five in the Old King James, the Son of Man did not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, mm-hmm and to give his life as a ransom for many. He did not come to be served, but to serve. And it's that word minister that means servant. Um and we just take our cue from Jesus, who in a sense was the prime minister, right? He's the prime minister of heaven in the and he's the chief servant. And he expresses his lordship by picking up the towel and washing his disciples' feet and pouring himself out to death because he he is the ruler who serves. And then Romans 13 says, you know, your rulers ought to be ministers. And that and that just like totally totally shapes the way it totally shapes what we expect from our leaders. Of course, our leaders don't deliver on it. But it's only Jesus that makes us even expect that from them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I I think even if we even I mean I guess people would agree that that's what we want, but people have a different view as to what that means as well. So so I I would say, and maybe this partly becomes part from working in a church as well, that you know, you we we have so people always say about democracy, you know, and uh and they they people mean different things when they say democracy, don't they? That some think, you know, we elect these people and they are to do what we say, what the people say. Right. Hence that you know the referendum is a good example of that. The people have spoken, now you put it into practice. Um and I'm not actually sure that's what I think democracy is, because we my understanding is we elect people to do something on our behalf um and to make decisions for us. You know, so in a sense, we we sort of give them the responsibility to do it, which may mean that they make decisions that actually the people don't want. Yeah. But it may well be that you know you know, you know, so my doctor might make a decision about something that's to do with my health, and he knows a lot more about it than I do. Yeah. Now there may be some dis there there may be uh some discrepancy between how much a doctor knows about medicine and how much a politician actually knows about Brexit and things. Not denying that. Um but you know, it is the case that we elect leaders to to rule.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. With expertise and uh Hopefully so. Yeah, Roger Marshall's made a great point. He says, um uh you know, when when we accuse politicians and and then the comeback is, well you couldn't do better, could you? Roger Marshall says, yes, but when a surgeon botches an operation, we don't say to ourselves, well, I could have done better or I couldn't have done better. Politicians are trained, supposedly, in the kind of analysis and geopolitical diagnosis that most of us, supposedly, are not capable of. Um and that yeah, that's a good point. That you should not expect the entirety of the population to read the six hundred page document that, you know, analyzes the withdrawal agreements, right? Yeah. Um that's why we have, you know, politicians who supposedly have expertise and time and can devote themselves to this.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and whole teams, whole teams of people kind of saying, like, you know, this yeah, you're right there, but actually there are these points here that make a difference and that we're just not aware of. Yeah. Um I mean the reason I said as uh the reason I said maybe it comes from working in church is that, you know, I don't think church is a democracy. No. You know, so church is is similar that we put people leaders in place who are to lead us and make decisions for us, and it you know, which is why, you know, I don't always think it's a great idea to be like, let's do votes in the church. I mean you let your leaders to make the decisions and you know, yeah, I'm sure there might be the things every now and again.

SPEAKER_04

But um Yeah, yeah. Yeah, democracy is not uh is not an unfettered good. It is it is something uh that we we we don't put democracy top of the tree of our of our hierarchy of values because um you know I mean to make to make democracy absolutely the number one power um would be, well, we've got the technology these days to vote on everything on everything. Yeah. Right? So, you know, Brexit swipe left and remains swipe right, and and then you know, you could have you could have votes every every single day.

SPEAKER_03

But you know what would happen though, because you'd be voting every day. Yeah. And people would be going flipping eck. Like, why can't people why can't they just make some decisions? Like they're always asking me every day. Yeah. Whereas at the moment they're we're saying people's vote program, yeah. I want the people's vote.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, do you?

SPEAKER_03

They prefer to grumble and complain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And how many votes do you want? And and so even if they could solve all the technology problems, because there's a technology problem about security, for instance, you know, you could you could hack elections much more easily if it was done via smartphone. But but even if you could do it, um would it would it be a better s set of affairs um to actually just have everybody vote on everything? And that would that would be pure democracy, wouldn't it? And we all have the sense that no, actually that there's there's problems there. Um that actually we want people who are representative who also have expertise.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and and without and and this is not at all a reference to the Brexit, but like it it is absolutely the case that just because a majority think something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Right. You know, and that's not at all a reference to Brexit in any way, shape, or form. But I mean you know, it's just the case that there are people who know more things about some sort of the average layman. I mean I've got to be honest, my my understanding of how on earth the economy really works and the ins and outs of things is pretty much zero. Yeah. You know? Like the difference things will make. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um the way you framed that sentence. The difference things will make. I don't know. Some things make some difference and other things make a different kind of difference. I I know that much.

SPEAKER_03

But I'm a very simple money-in, money out kind of person. You know, that's how it works for me.

SPEAKER_04

That's nice. That's nice. But so where where do we get the idea that democracy is a good thing at all? Because you might just think, well uh Winston Churchill said the best form of government would be uh dictatorship tempered by assassination. And he he also said that democracy is the least bad form of government. Yeah, it's the worst form of government after all the others. You know, the others are the really bad ones. But but why do we why do we have this um love of democracy? Well, the the the great statements that kind of undergirds a lot of democratic thinking is we want rule of the people, by the people, and for the people. Rule of the people, by the people, and for the people. And that that's great. Um but where did that phrase first appear in literature? And actually it first appeared uh with John Wycliffe in um uh the late 14th century as he was translating the Bible in a preface to his um New Testament translation. He just got into politics a little bit and sort of said, and and because of Jesus, the rule of the of the country should be rule of the people, by the people, and for the people. And his reasoning was basically, well, Jesus, the man, our brother, is at the right hand of the Father, ruling the cosmos as one of us. And so he should model what kind of government we have. Um that it should be so that we should be represented in the highest places, and everybody should be represented in the highest places, because humanity is represented in the throne room of God. Yep. So so actually democracy in that sense has has deeply Christian roots. Um but obviously Jesus doesn't, you know, do votes on everything. Though he does represent us and represent all of us, um he does what he's gonna do, because he has certain expertise, right? Yeah, absolutely. Um yeah. So you know there there are times when democracy works and there are times when I guess democracy just does not work.

SPEAKER_06

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Democracy simply doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04

There we go. Did we hear that? Oh yeah. Who knows if that would be it? They heard it. Yeah, yeah. Kent Brockman from The Simpsons sayings, democracy just does not work, people. Um But you know, we we we mentioned before how we have messianic expectations of our politicians. Um and I guess that's that's a problem. Um but you know, I think you made the point in the in the in the video, you know, uh there's only one person who's fit, you know, for fit to rule. For that job. Yeah, absolutely. And the government is on his shoulders, you know. So as we remember at Christmas, and the government shall be upon his shoulders, you know. Truly strong and stable government. Hey? Hey Boom. Boom. See what I did. Shall we move on?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we're running out of time actually, because we're uh we're five to two at the moment. We'll get there, we'll get there. So let's have a look at questions eight and nine. Eight and nine. Go. Wait. How do you think of the other side? The other guys are the problem, right? She's the worst person I've ever met. Brexiteers say it's Remainers, Remainers say it's Brexiteers. It's always the other side. This tribalism is described in the Bible from day one. We're brilliant at playing the blame game.

SPEAKER_06

You know what I blame this on the breakdown of? Society.

SPEAKER_03

It's easy to blame others, even to blame society. But again, you want to nudge the conversation towards a bigger view of human nature. I often mention the Alexander Solzhenitsyn quote, the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. That brings us to question 9.

SPEAKER_04

Can you put the other side's argument? In one sense, it's really easy to describe someone else's view. You stupid boy. But it's really hard to describe someone else's view in a way that they would recognize.

SPEAKER_00

So you've you're saying you've done your research and women are unhappy dominating men.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't say they were unhappy dominating men.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe play a game with your friends. See if they can put the other person's point of view. It'll be a great exercise in transcending tribalism. Yes. Can you can you put the other side's view? Um almost never. Almost it's it's so like Yeah, if you're on one side of a debate, it's so difficult not to caricature. The other side.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it that's the thing, isn't it? It's uh I suppose it's easy on and particularly a Brexit. That's exactly what goes on, isn't it? Yeah. And because you assume that of course despite the fact we've just said we know that we don't know everything about these things, we're like, but we're probably right. You're definitely wrong. So that's right.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, if you yeah, if you don't know the other person's argument at its strongest, you don't even know your own arguments. You know, John Stuart Mills said something very similar to that. Um yeah, if you don't know if you haven't if you can't even formulate the other person's argument as strongly as it possibly can be formulated, you probably can't formulate your own arguments. Because you you don't know what you're up in. Um and I think with this one and the whole slide into tribalism, I think Christians have this unique uh uh resource called the gospel, like called being saved by grace and not by works. I am not in the right because I get it right. You know? Um and yet so much of tribalism is just I've got I've got my stuff right and the other side doesn't. And so if you're wrong, you're bad and I can't be bad, I must be good, and so therefore I'm right. Because we're we we we kind of we think of a a kind of a righteousness by works, a righteousness by ideology, and belonging to the right party, and all of us are are seeking that sense of of being in with the right group. And as if that's your highest goal, then you must point the finger at others and say, You're in the out group, you're wrong, you're evil. Um and so it's gotta be Christians should be modelling a kind of their salvation by grace by being the most the the least tribalistic and and the most open to be able to to have friendships across the divides and and that kind of stuff. I don't know how well we do at that, but we ought to be modelling the way forward. Um there was a there was a lovely um Facebook graphic um on the eve of the the vote back in twenty sixteen and it was um uh a husband and a wife kneeling down at communion and he had a Romaine t-shirt on, she had a Brexit t-shirt on, um, but they were holding hands at the communion rail, and it was just this yeah, surely at the foot of the cross, you know, some of these tribal things can fall away. Yeah. Because it's not important that I get my politics right. Um I've been made right by Jesus. Um so hopeful hopefully that's that's one way of of of avoiding the tribalism. Um and then should we have a look at uh the final question? Question ten.

SPEAKER_03

Who do you trust on this? Information. Information. You won't get it. The trouble with Brexit is not just that I don't know what to think, I don't know who to trust. There are so many voices and they're all very loud. Who knows? And how do we know that we know?

SPEAKER_01

And when it comes to establishing the worldview, I'm just curious what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read?

SPEAKER_03

This gets us into the question of faith directly. For me, I don't ultimately trust humans who have only a breath in their nostrils, but I do trust a guy who endured pretty incredible political upheaval. He was born under Roman rule. Some of his countrymen, like the tax collectors, were colluding with the Romans. Some of them, like the zealots, were freedom fighters who wanted a violent exit from Rome. Jesus made both into disciples, both Matthew the tax collector and Simon the Zealot, and he got on with his world changing ministry largely apart from politics. Eventually politics caught up with him and he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. But God raised him from the dead to birth a kingdom that is spreading throughout the world and crossing every border. I don't know where history is headed in the short term, but ultimately I trust him. Well what about you guys?

SPEAKER_04

Have you ever had You don't need me. Yeah, yeah, so who do we trust in that's just a huge one, isn't it? You know. Cause you've got, you know, what Trump would call the mainstream media, right? And the the lying media and all that kind of stuff. And like and every now and again, like you s you see the bias in the media, or you know, it's it's always interesting when when a journalist starts talking about an area that you know about and you realize how little they know.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, they'll they'll start pronouncing about Brexit and you go, Oh yeah, I'm sure they know what they're talking about. And then they'll start pronouncing about like some aspect of the Church of England or theology or you know, Christianity in general, and you're like, oh wow, you don't even know the difference between an evangelical and an evangelist or information. Like, yeah, absolutely. And you and then and then you start to think, wait a minute, maybe when they're talking about that other stuff, they're just as ignorant. Then the answer to that question is almost certainly yes.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um but then other people come along and you get these conspiracy theorist bloggers, and you know, like Alex Jones comes and talks about the lizard people taking over the world. And um so you probably don't want to go You probably want to go down that end that way.

SPEAKER_03

And you're like, who do you trust? But that's I think that's what the lizard people want us to think.

SPEAKER_04

So like, yeah, so who do you trust and could you be wrong? And yeah. And I I guess as a Christian you kind of go, uh I can be wrong, and I might well be wrong.

SPEAKER_03

I think like one of the things I've thought about recently is is is you know, in conversation is maybe and I've not really tried it, but whether it's helpful in conversation just to say to people, is it possible that this could be the case? So they they think something else, yeah, but you say, could you conceive that it could be possible that actually this is the case? Yeah. And you say, you know, and if we can both find a place where we can say, Right, yeah, we might neither of us might have quite the full picture on this.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I just wary of like so much conversation, particularly on the internet, seems to just be people bashing heads. Yeah. And no one backs down one way or the other, and there's no common ground, and it's just you over there, you're the evil ones, and we must purge the unbelievers and all this kind of stuff. And actually maybe holding our hands up and saying, Well Yeah, yeah. I I believe this is the case, but yeah, I don't I can't be sure.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um and that's the thing with that is that is the big difficulty with Brexit. That I mean I mean it was interesting the other day when um uh the Stephen Fry video came out. Right, yeah. And people almost talked about it like um, well finally finally the truth. And you're like, well, you know, I watched a video and and I I like Stephen Fry, and I'm I don't I don't think to myself that Stephen Fry is gonna set out to deliberately mislead. Right. But it could still be a load of rubbish for all I know. Like I got no insight into the inner workings of it. You know, if he tells me that's how it works, then I'm gonna look and go, Yeah, I'm I'm assuming that's how it works. Yeah, yeah. But then someone else might come along and say, Oh, but he's not mentioned yada yada yada. And I go, okay, well I didn't know about that, so now what do I do? Right. There is an interesting hierarchy of experts there where Stephen Fry is top of the tree. He's the comedy actor Stephen Fry. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But I think it's come along too. Beyond State, Top Trump's.

SPEAKER_04

He's totally Top Trump's. But it it's this idea that well, I I think it is psychologically impossible to do what you're describing. To to kind of, hey, for the sake of argument, you know, I could leave my entrenched position and just you know, wander over no man's land and just, you know, join you in your delusion, right? Like that is psychologically impossible if your identity is based in being right, or your identity is based in a certain political group or a cause or a view of the world. Yeah. If if you are in that thing and if that is your identity, then you're not going to be able to cross the divide and think outside the box. You're really not. So I I I so again I think the gospel is absolutely core to that. That, you know, fundamentally I'm not an Australian or I'm not an Australian living in the UK, or and if you want to know how I voted, actually, on on um these these whole issues, I I I very much am of the view that uh Australia should leave the Eurovision Song Contest. We're all of that people. I don't know why Australia there. But like, you know, if let's let's say, you know, let's say I'm an entrenched Brexiteer or an entrenched Brahma or anything, like um I really need to do some some deep work on, you know, Jesus is Lord, and that's that's my identity. And I could flip flop on this issue. I could I could wake up tomorrow and find it uh myself in a different place politically, but find myself absolutely secure spiritually.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean that and and actually so I would say I would have described myself as like generally More like left, but in the last 18 months, I've heard a lot of more right stuff.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. The YouTube algorithms are throwing these things to me.

SPEAKER_03

And I kind of go, okay, like, yeah, there's some really sensible stuff here. Yeah. And so, I mean, of course, I like to think of myself as a centrist, you know, because I'm the balanced one. Not like you leftists and rightists. I've got it absolutely right. Right, you're right. Keeping the balance. Keeping the balance.

SPEAKER_04

See, I'm I'm not even on the spectrum. I'm a libertarian, so I'm just above you guys looking down from on high.

SPEAKER_03

But what do you say to the person then who says, ah, yes, I agree with you, but aren't you just like that as a Christian, that you're so entrenched in your position that you won't give up any you you won't even look at the reality.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Of of the Christian versus non-Christian debate. Yeah, I mean, this is coming out of intra neural.

SPEAKER_03

But just people would say, like, oh, but you know, you're you know, you're you're saying my identity might be as an atheist, and I'm so entrenched in that that I won't come out of it. But you're just as entrenched as a Christian, what what do we say?

SPEAKER_04

Well, step one, you just say, yeah, okay, that is reality, that actually you are committed to things first and foremost, and you're not a rational decision maker who is above it all, just assessing the evidence, because nobody is like that. But then you've got to you've got to admit that everyone is viewing the world from somewhere, and you can't view the evidence from nowhere. There there is no neutral position to take. Um so that at that point it's then about what what are um what are the what are the foundations that allow you to make sense of the world best. And and I think, you know as best as I can, I can try and put the spectacles of certain kinds of atheism on, I can as best I can I can put the spectacles of of Islam on for a minute and look around at the world and um but you know, I I I do happen to think that the you know, as C.S. Lewis said, uh, you know, I believe in the sun not just because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. And I think Jesus is the light of the world that illumines everything else. Um But yeah, but yeah, it is it is impossible to get out of a position. Everyone looks at the world from somewhere. But I think if the and this is one thing that recommends Christianity above all other things, is that he gives me an identity that is not based on my performance, it's not based on my flesh, it's not based on my works, it's not based on my ideology. It's it's based outside of myself in him. And so if my identity is in him, he gives me the best shot at looking at the world from a position that's not about entrenched kind of um privilege and all that kind of stuff. So um So, yeah, interesting stuff to think about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um Well, let's hope that um Theresa May has been watching. Because it will have pretty much solved most things, I imagine. That's the back of that. You know, she'll have come to an epiphany and the whole government really will have sure be watching this on their lunch break. Um and they can get back to uh get back to work. Absolutely. If that golden staff has been put back. Oh yeah, the cold. We didn't get the video, sadly. I don't know if anyone saw the the Member of Parliament, Labour MP, picking up the magic golden staff from the middle of Parliament as a protest, which I didn't even know there was a magic staff.

SPEAKER_04

You didn't know that? That's when the Queen comes in and they knock on the door.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well now you say that I do, but I didn't realise it was there, and they can't pass any laws unless it's there. Okay. Okay. Good job there getting that sovereignty back. We can't do anything. Can't do anything unless the magic rod's here. The inanimate carbon rod. Like Dear me.

SPEAKER_04

Right. But you know. A bit of decorum, Paul. You need these things. Democracy is, you know, based on such things. Um last thing to do. Oh, let me have let me have a check. We've been running a competition on this little nifty number. It's not little at all. Let's cut take a line. Here it is. Look at this, isn't this brilliant? Haven't ten of those done a fantastic job. Reading between the lines. Look at that. That's a chunky, uh chunky tome as well, then. Love thy neighbour, it says. There we go. You get your money's worth on that. You do get your money's worth, it's about 120,000 words in there. I was gonna say 120 pounds. That's the case. Um No, I th I think in in terms of pound per word, this is this is the best value of all my books. Wow. Um get onto tenofhose.com and you've sorted Christmas. Hey? Yeah. Just and you get you get twenty-five percent off if you get a box of ten. Get free shipping, you get a free ebook with every every copy sold. And if you get a box of ten, twenty-five percent off, and you've sorted Christmas for everybody. Brilliant. And it lasts a whole year. And it lasts well, this one lasts six months. Oh. Six months, and then volume two is coming out early in the new year. There we go. There we go. So let's have a look. Uh we we did a competition um so that people could get copies. And uh here we go. Now what am I gonna do? I'm going to. What's a random number generator? Here we go. Random number generator. Seven. You know, not you. We're gonna use technology. Okay, here we go, people. Here's my random number generator. Hang on, let me put you up. Let me put you up so people can see. Between one and eleven, here we go, it's going live and random number generator. Number three. It was three, I can confirm. Who was the adjudicator tonight? The third person is Rachel Sloan. Rachel Sloan has just won the speedboat. She's 14 miles from the sea. Yeah, yeah. The speak life checkbook and pen. So fantastic. Rachel Sloan. Uh you win this, we'll send out uh a copy. And hey, everybody else, you could get your own. Just come on.

unknown

Come on.

SPEAKER_04

Baby needs new shoes. Yeah, blend needs Christmas. Yeah, paper Christmas. Yeah, it's not just Christmas for you. It's Christmas for me. So get on and uh and get reading between the lines in your Christmas stockings.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. Well, it's almost quarter past two. Okay, so it's time to stop. Just stop. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_04

Awesome. Well, it's a great pleasure.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, thanks very much for watching, everybody. We hope it's been helpful. And we are we're in next week, aren't we?

SPEAKER_04

We're in next week, so yeah. Shove this out on social media and uh share the podcast which comes out on Friday, and uh have good Brexit conversations. That's right. Cool. Take care. See ya. Bye.