This week, cross-cultural mission has come under the microscope after the tragic death of John Alan Channel. One of many journalists to join the chorus of Twitter outrage at Channel's nerve was Janet Street Porter. She wrote, John Channel's sad death should be a wake-up call to all missionaries targeting uncontacted tribes. Why? Well, Channel sought to reach perhaps the most isolated tribe on earth with the good news of Jesus. He was met by arrows and spears crying out, I love you and Jesus loves you. Here is Janet Street Porter's telling of it. As John Chanel stepped ashore on North Sentinel Island, he was met by angry tribesmen who filled him with poison arrows. The next day they buried his body further down the beach. The foolhardy 27-year-old American, a self-styled adventurer and evangelical missionary, had already tried to contact the inhabitants of this remote atoll in the Andaman Islands a few days earlier, paying local fishermen to break the law and ferry him there. He left gifts of a pair of scissors, safety pins, and a plastic football. Crass or what? says Janet Street Porter. This was an act of cultural imperialism and insane arrogance. Cultural imperialism and insane arrogance, says a woman who has not noticed the triple irony in her position. Let me point out the three ironies here, and then we'll deal with John Allen Chow after that. But first, irony number number one. Janet Street Porter cannot believe the arrogance of someone who thinks that their culture is superior to another. But she is a journalist who spends her time analysing cultures and making judgments of better and worse. For instance, earlier this year she wrote of her grudging agreement with Boris Johnson that the Nicab and the Burqa are highly distasteful in modern Britain. She made the perfectly intelligible and reasonable feminist point that this denigrates the dignity of women. Well, is that just crass cultural imperialism, Janet? Well, apparently it is, but only when other people do it. The second irony is that as she makes her judgment against the arrogance of Christian mission, she herself is evangelizing us about a certain view of the world. Janet's view of the world is that every cultural belief and practice is as valid as every other. That's the dogma she's espousing here. Of course, she's not consistent with that. She wants to be able to say that Berkers are wrong. That's irony number one. But let's take Janet at her word. Every culture is equal to every other culture. So some cultures welcome strangers, bringing gifts, some spear them to death. But every culture is equal, really? Well, that's that's the dogma anyway. That's what she lays out here in her article. She tells the story of her trip to a non-Western culture. Quote: A few years ago I spent a couple of weeks in Papua New Guinea and was taken by boat to the remote outer islands. The people I met had no currency, but barted using shells. They had all the food they needed growing in abundance, and the fish were plentiful. Then she goes on and says, Sadly, missionaries might have brought medicine and education to parts of PNG, so she'll grudgingly admit that. But Western culture has only brought violence and unrest to places like the capital, Port Moresby. Notice that she grudgingly admits that Christian missionaries brought medicine and education to parts of PNG. Also that she says Western culture brought violence to Port Moresby. Well, alright, as a Christian missionary to Western culture, I'll take that as a fresh encouragement to bring Christianity to the violent West. I agree with that. But Janet Street Porter wants us to learn a different lesson. She says, the assumption that bringing Christ's word via the Bible to remote tribes will enrich the lives of isolated tribes is hard to stomach. John Chow, she says, claimed he wanted to introduce Christ to the Sentinelese. But why would their own culture not include a deity, a belief in the afterlife, or some sense of fulfilling spirituality? Why would his evangelical creed be superior or necessary? That's the point. Why would the Christian gospel be superior to anything the Sentinelese already believe and practice? Well, the fact that they've tried to kill everyone coming close to them might suggest that they've got something to learn about peace and love, don't you think? Maybe? But if Janet is adamant that no culture, belief, or practice could be deemed superior to any other, well that's a dogma that is so non-obvious that not even Janet believes it. You see, Janet wants all Christian missionaries to heed this notion that all cultures are equal. She wants Christians to stop having their view of culture and start having her view of culture. It's an exclusive belief that Janet holds, which is fine. She can have her exclusive belief about cultures. But this is the second irony. She tells us that we can't have our exclusive view of cultures while insisting on her own exclusive view of cultures. We can't think that the we we can't think that the gospel is superior to the beliefs of others, but we ought to believe that Janet Street Porter's view of cultures is superior to ours. That is irony number two, and and here comes irony number three. Janet Street Porter ends her article with these words about Christian missionaries. She asks, why can't these zealots, why can't these zealots accept that some non-believers do not need the words of Jesus? Janet Street Porter writes these words from the comfortable west, a civilization founded upon the words of Jesus. Janet herself has been built by the words of Jesus. The fact that she holds the views that she holds about the equality of the sexes, about the innate dignity of every member of the human family, about the universality of human rights across cultures and practices, about the wrongfulness and arrogance of pride, and about the need to advance our civilization peacefully by words of persuasion. Everything she believes is shaped from the ground up by the words of Jesus. So here she is, incalculably in debt to Jesus for her incredible privileges and blessings, as are we all. And here she is benefiting from a culture that was built by the good news of Jesus, but she decries Christian missionaries trying to introduce others to these benefits. It was Christian missionaries who brought the gospel to the unreached peoples of the British Isles while they were drinking the blood of their ancestors. And that gospel has built the Western world. Now Westerners like Janet Street Porter are complaining about those pesky Christian missionaries taking their beliefs to others. This is the third and most obvious irony. So these are the ironies of Janet Street Porter. But let's let's finally just turn to John Chow. In the wake of John Chow's death, we've seen the benefits that we've seen the beneficiaries of cross-cultural mission decrying the existence of cross-cultural mission. I'm not defending the tactics of John Alan Chow. From what I've read, it was a doomed mission without the proper support of Christians around him, churches at home, churches in India, without a proper long-term strategy for seeking to disciple the folks that he wanted to reach. I don't think Chow's example is to be followed in Christian missions. But when I think of spears piercing his body as he cries out, I love you, I can't help thinking of another cross-cultural mission. From heaven to earth came the ultimate missionary, and I'm sure glad he did not leave me to my own culture of fear and selfishness and death. He intervened, though it cost him everything. So let's not copy Chow in the way he expressed his passion, but let's be inspired by it. Let's be inspired by his passion, by his faith, and let's look through his example to the one he loves. Christ's mission of love really is this world's hope. It's everybody's hope. From those in the jungle, even to journalists. I just got one more mouthful of sandwich to go.
SPEAKER_01So if you're listening on the podcast now, you're thinking what on earth is going on in still. You'll never know.
SPEAKER_03Like MP MPR. Do you ever listen to the MPR kind of uh podcasts and things like that?
SPEAKER_04It's kind of the they all lean into the microphone like this, and they all they all sound like they're chewing on a bagel while they speak in this spacey FM kind of voice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I I I hope those on the podcast really. We should totally get onto onto North Norfolk Digital. Let's try and get onto North Norfolk Digital. Hello, everybody. Hello, welcome. Welcome to Tuesday, the 27th of November, 2018. Goodness. Um we very much hope that we are going to launch our Christmas videos. Um we've said 2 p.m. T minus whatever. T minus 49 minutes. Hopefully. Hopefully, but they are they are uploading. Well, certainly the documentary is uploading as we speak to Facebook and to YouTube. So we uh actually no, we we don't we don't do fingers crossed, do we? What do we say? Knees bent. Fingers bent. You pray. We very much pray that in the providence of God um we might be able to launch our Christmas videos. So we've got two Christmas videos to to drop on you. One is a 90-second exciting trailer, and the other is a 12-minute beautiful documentary about how our peacemaking mission to space is a faint reflection of God's peacemaking mission to Earth at Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. So that'd be a good one. It oh, they're awesome. I can't wait for you to see them. Um yeah, especially the documentary is just it looks exquisite. They've got they've got these NASA um images. Um, Alan Wichells, who's been doing uh work on the videography, has done a brilliant job with NASA footage, which is all um free, it's all copyright free. So you can use all that stuff, and then Josh Lucas, who does the music for most of our videos, has just put a beautiful score to it. And it's cinematic and epic and groundbreaking.
SPEAKER_01Um I've I'm yet to see the finished product. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't think I've seen the whole thing from woe to woe because we are on a tight schedule. That's it. But uh if you're the praying type, uh we've got forty-seven minutes to go until we launch that video. Maybe. This is exciting. Blast off. This is the most exciting podcast ever. Um so what's been in the news, Paul? What's what uh what what what should we talk about, do you think?
SPEAKER_01Uh well well this has been such a we're so on the minute here that uh even I'm not sure what we're doing. Um But uh look uh we well we've just seen our monologue, haven't we? And that's been kind of in the news in the last few days. There's uh John John Allen Chow. John Allen Chow and his visit to uh the Sentinelese people, well and then his ultimate death. Um So I'd come across I don't know, I mean I'd come across them before, I'd heard of them. Had you? Okay, no, I I'd heard of the pe these this group of people who basically were on this island and they were in complete isolation and you know when people came they chased them away or killed them. Yeah. Um so I was kind of aware uh you know, in the back of my mind somewhere I wouldn't say I was I mean, no there's not really much to know about them because you know a few pictures here and there of We don't even know what they speak or you know how they speak it and like yeah Yeah, yeah, presumably presumably they've got their own language and yeah, the whole thing going on. So Yeah, so obviously it was a bit of a you know, it was came out of the blue, but and and it's a bit of a tragic case, isn't it? Um tragic story really of what's happened to this guy.
SPEAKER_03So to get a timeline on it, I think on something like the twenty maybe the twentieth of November, he sort of first went to the beach and he had gifts that he gave to them of like a soccer ball, a football, um, and s some other supplies, like safety pins or something like that that he thought might have been useful to them, and they kind of chased him away and he got shot out by like a twelve-year-old, and and so it was it was fishermen that sort of um uh ferried him to the to the island and then he sort of you know ran quickly back to the to the fishing boat and and retreated. And at that stage he he wrote letters home and they're actually actually quite uh there's quite a l uh a moving and lengthy 13-page letter that he writes um back to his mother, um kind of encouraging her and and saying, Look, you know, they they might kill me, don't hate them for killing me, and and I think Jesus is worth it. And and he sort of quotes from Revelation 7 at the end that around the tri uh around the throne of God there will be every tribe and nation and people and tongue, and and these guys will be part of it, and and it's worth giving you all in the in the mission of Christ. And that's kind of the the last that we've heard from John Alan Zhao, and he he went back a couple of days after that and and uh was speared to death, and uh by all accounts some of the last things that he said to the Sentinelese were was I love you and Jesus loves you. And uh and with that he was killed. So uh very sad, very tragic in lots of ways. Um and then the internet gets a hold of it and it takes on a life of its own.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03So there's all sorts of comments um by yeah, by people who are appalled by this kind of you know, cultural colonialism and and arrogance, and uh and why do why on earth do we think that the tribes people would be any better off with the words of Jesus than they are left to their own devices? Yep. Um and then there's the the issue of the legality of what he did, because it's illegal to, you know, to to go to this island. So the Indian authorities have have declared it off limits, and they declared it off limits for a good reason, because they might not be immune to all the diseases that Westerners might have. So he he leaps over a number of different um barriers, I guess, in order to make his one brief encounter with them, and then he dies. So, like what what are some of your thoughts as you start to think about the the John Allen Chow case?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I mean you know, you you read people kind of critiquing it and saying, Well, what did he expect to achieve? in the sense of you know, he doesn't s you know, he wouldn't be able to communicate with them in in with in a language at least. Um you know, running and kind of shouting, Jesus loves you and I love you. I mean that's not gonna mean anything to them really at that stage. Um so yeah, I mean, as you look at it, you kind of think this does seem like it was a pretty unwise thing. I mean, uh but then I also look at it and think the heart behind it is is right, you know, and I think you touch upon it in your monologue, don't you? That I mean, ultimately if there were well I think other people have touched on it as well, there was no cross-cultural mission. If people had never pushed across these boundaries, then well Christianity would never have moved outside of Judea, you know, Jerusalem. Right. Um and so I take the point about the the illnesses, you know, that and I think there's uh real questions around that. Um I wonder what the stance would be if if we knew somehow that they were fine. There was no immune that they were immune to everything, and it wouldn't be an issue. I wonder what the stance would be then, whether people would still be and my suspicion is people would still be outraged because we live in an era of you know, throwing around terms like colonialism is kind of the popular thing to do. It's a nice way to signal your virtue online, isn't it? To you know, be ashamed of how white and yeah, you know, colonial you are. Yeah. Um it's slightly ironic that, you know, Christianity isn't really a white colonial thing anyway. Sure. Okay. Which I think probably is just the ignorance of white colonial people coming through there anyway. Yes. Yeah, yeah, to think about it. This is a Western thing taking over there. Well, Christianity isn't really a Western thing, is it?
SPEAKER_03Um I wonder To be honest, Christians and non-Christians both need to be rebuked by that. Yeah, you know. I think we yeah, we need to take that rebuke too.
SPEAKER_01I think though, um the it's interesting, so a lot of people I've seen it's been very negative towards him. But I've not seen any real negativity towards the Sentinelese. Right. Which I think is fascinating as well, because 'cause I wonder if if it was any other cultural group if we were saying like imagine if we as Christians just said, well, we don't want anything to do with any of you non-believers. Right. And if you come near us we kill you, would people just go, well, just leave them to what they want to do? I it it seems a little bit strange to me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You might leave them alone, but then when they when they act violently towards outsiders, you might want to say that's right, and so do they get a free pass on doing things like that as well? And if giving and does the very act of giving them a free pass actually mean that you are devaluing them in your eyes, because you're basically saying, ah yeah, I I know that there's the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That that applies to most people, but it doesn't apply to these people. And you're like, well, no, I I actually want to give them the dignity that says thou thou shalt not kill applies to them too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because they are utterly my equals in every single way. And if they are utterly my equals in every single way, then it's not like, oh well, they don't know any better and you know, each to their own. It's it's like, no, no.
SPEAKER_01Which is an incredibly patronizing thing. They're kind of, well, they start thinking they don't know any better, that kind of idea.
SPEAKER_03Right. It's it is almost as patronizing as the noble savage idea, which is that the it's it's only Westerners that that teach the noble savage ever to be violent and that sort of thing. And that that's kind of pat patting them on the head in one sense, but I think it's patting them on the head in another sense to say, um, yeah, well, what do you what do you expect? They're tribal people. They're gonna murder, you know. And you're like, well, okay. And then and that's from the same people who say, well, they don't need Jesus, and they don't need the, you know, why why would we consider any culture to be superior to their culture? And I'm like, oh, come on. Like Janet Janet Street Porter kind of made that argument in her article. And at the same time, she's wanting to make the the argument that putting women in burkas and nicabs is is not right in our society. And so she's wanting to make a judgment on that section of of the human family, but she's not wanting to make a judgment on another section of the human family. And you're like, well, why why the double standard? And if they are truly equal in dignity and worth and value, which I totally believe as a Christian, then I think it's it's it it's right to sort of say Well, I actually what I think it is, it's it's right to say what John Alan Shaw said before he died, he said, Don't get angry at them if they kill me, right? Which is which is not to say that killing is right, but it is to say that there's there's even an ethic that goes beyond thou shalt not kill, which goes to I will give my life, even for those who who want to kill me. Now, if you don't see that as a superior ethic, I I I don't know what you're thinking of. You know? Like if if you don't see that the rule of law that says thou shalt not kill is a step above just the rule of nature in which you know you you just kill outsiders. If you don't see that that's not a step up, I you l you live as though that's a step up. Yeah, you know, you don't go on holiday, you don't do what John Hao and Chao did. You go to places that have a rule of law, right? So you you believe that you know the rule of law makes one culture a nicer place to live in, a better place to live in. But but even on top of that, there is the gospel that says that the giving of life for the sake of another is like this supreme virtue. And and if you don't see that that's superior, I I don't think you've got your eyes open. But guess guess who it is? Guess who are the people who are trying to bring that supreme ethic, that supreme good news to the world. It's the people who go in the name of Jesus, you know and who end up, you know, often looking like Jesus, speared to death saying, I love you. Um So I th I think I I don't think John Allen Chow is is a a model for how we should do Christian mission. I think I'm inspired by him. Um I'm in s I'm inspired by his passion and his love, but not to do exactly what he did.
SPEAKER_01There's having a wisdom in in the way you do things, isn't there, as well. I mean I think the I mean the Babylon Bee chimed in, of course, on this one. I don't know if you saw that. Yeah, yeah. You know, the Babylon Bee, the satire, Christian satire kind of site saying, you know uh Christian who never told anyone about Jesus criticizes John Allen Chow, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And there is that sense, you know, of uh and a few people had said in the comments, you know, it used to be much more the case that that kind of all inness was that's just what the Christian life was about. You know. And and yes, there's wisdom I suppose in how you how you do it, but now there's very much a kind of, oh well, we're just like he's that's a bit extreme, isn't it? Rocking the boat, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um now I'm sensitive to Like people want to say, well, it's rocking the boat for the Sentinelese, because what if it infected them with the flu and it could have been a genocide? I'm sensitive to people who say that. And I I'm especially sensitive as an Australian, knowing that when when the English settled Australia in 1788, like within a hundred years, ninety percent of the Aboriginal population was wiped out. Um from from that area, largely through influenza, but all also there were violent incidents as well and that sort of thing. But but the spread of disease is something really to think through, really to think through carefully. So yeah, it was recorded.
SPEAKER_01I mean, maybe I'm crossing my wires in here, but I just wonder whether there's an irony as well in like people saying, like, you know, these are you know, because of all these things, these cultures should kind of be keep kept separate and allowed whatever. But yeah, you know, these are probably the same people who are compla uh complaining that we're leaving the EU because they want open borders and people just to pass through in multiculturalism. And you're like, well, you I I imagine Janet Brought was all for that, right? You know, I don't know personally, but there'll be plenty of people like her bemoaning for going into other cultures and mixing with these other cultures and causing issues. And then at the same time they'll be going, isn't it terrible we're leaving the EU and why can't we have it? People just don't think about stuff that much. Of course they don't. I'm not saying I've got it all down. I'm not saying I've got it now down.
SPEAKER_03Um but I mean one person who really one person who really exposed that double think was a politician I do not endorse or support in any way in Australia called Pauline Hansen, who is very much for closed borders and and you know, in a sense she doesn't think the Australian immigration system is harsh enough, which is you know, put on my heart. But uh for closed borders and let's protect our culture.
SPEAKER_01Sentinel island for the Sentinelese.
SPEAKER_03That was what you were saying. So that's tweet. I think we've written written a letter and and made a a motion in Parliament that we should you know honour the Sentinelese for protecting their own culture. And uh if they're allowed to do it, why can't we do it? So that I I think people are thinking to it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that you say you're not endorsing that kind of uh idea. No, but those double standards are right for right for everything. Just like you point out in Janet's reporter's article, they're just the thing she's completely oblivious to that you know her entire culture is built on the thing that she's saying people should not take and put anywhere else. So I guess irony alarm, irony to explode. Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Well, I thought what we could do is actually bring in um some uh some voices that actually they they know what they're talking about for. Um the first episode the last live cast for um I thought we could ask um Jeremy Hambright and Jack Crabtree, who are uh missionaries to an unreached people group in Papua New Guinea.
SPEAKER_01Someone has commented about Papua New Guinea actually as well. Rachel over someone told someone in Papua New Guinea told me that before the gospel came they were living in fear, but now when evil spirits come they aren't scared anymore because they know Jesus is more powerful. That's amazing she should mention that.
SPEAKER_03Because that's exactly what Jeremy and Jack uh have been saying to me this morning. So I managed to Skype with them, or Zoom, I think it was a Zoom, and uh and we had a great conversation about um let's not throw all cross-cultural ministry under under the bus um because of one unwise act. And uh and I I really love my chat with them. I hope you love it too. Uh there's a lot of wisdom between uh Jeremy Hambrice and Jack. Um uh Jack Crabtree, let's have a look. Brilliant. So I am with Jack Crabtree and Jeremy Hambrais. Uh you guys are missionaries in Papua New Guinea, is that right? Tell tell us about where you are right now.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so uh we are sort of uh right in the middle in the interior part of Papua New Guinea in the Highlands region. Uh we're on a mountain that's about 7,000 feet up. Uh, and uh we live with the Wantiquia people. Uh we've lived with them for about four years now. We've been uh going through the painful process of trying to learn their unwritten language. Uh but with the Lord's help, we've accomplished that, and now we're just in the beginning stages of translating the Bible uh so that we can so that we can teach it to the Wantikea people.
SPEAKER_03Amazing. Four years, and you describe it as a painful process. Uh tell tell tell us about uh where you've come from in the states.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um, so we all are natives uh of the state of Arkansas. Uh my family, uh Jack's family, and uh another coworker family of Arsa Sanders. Uh we all met up in the States and uh just felt like we were a good fit together and uh we're sort of headed in the same direction. Uh we're all sort of uh influenced um by the same sort of thinking uh from the Bible. Uh we were all you know college graduates and looking for work and uh at the same time uh heard a pretty clear message from God's Word uh that uh God uh has a huge desire to make Himself known to all people. Uh and that desire is very clear uh from Genesis all the way to Revelation. He makes promises like to Abraham that uh he's going to bless him, and and through him he's going uh to be a blessing to all the families of the earth. And those promises sort of follow along the narrative of scripture. And you know, we we grew up in the church and we heard about missions. Uh, and when once we see that even Jesus' command was to go and make disciples of all nations and how that fit into the overall narrative of scripture, uh, then to see the Bible close uh with the book of Revelation, uh, where we see people from all tongues, tribes, and nations standing before the throne and worshiping the Lamb. Uh, this was really a message that that captured all of our hearts, Mindjacks, our coworker BJ, and our wives. Um yeah, it's for me personally. Um, yeah, I was pursuing a baseball career and and working my my way through the ranks with the New York Mets and their minor league baseball system. And um, yeah, I was starting to ask the question, sort of, yeah, God, what's your what's your will for my life? Uh and uh I sort of got smacked in the face with a different question. Someone said, Yeah, that's that's an okay question to ask, but why don't you ask, God, what are you doing? And and how how can I fit into that? And so for the first time, I was shared, uh, it was shared with me, this this overall grand narrative of what God's doing in the world and and how I could fit into it as a believer. And it was something that, you know, I was writing my own story, but once I saw God's story and its completeness and what he's doing in the world, uh, I just, man, I had to be a part of it somehow. And so uh for a lot of things, here we are uh in the middle of the jungle with the want to give people because we believe that God uh has a great desire to make himself known to them and it's gone to great lengths, uh, even so far as sending his son uh to save them. And so that's that's why we're here. We're here to give them that message.
SPEAKER_03That's fantastic. So it's it's not about God, how do you fit into my life, but but uh God, how can I fit into your great mission and great plans? So so Jack, tell us tell us why Papua New Guinea and why the Wanta Kia people.
SPEAKER_06Sure, yeah. Well, you know, there are hundreds of language groups around the world that don't have the Bible in their language, they're unreached or least reached, however, whatever name you want to call them by. There are so many language groups that are like that. And Papua New Guinea has more than 800 distinct language groups, uh, but also the government is totally happy with missionaries coming in, and many of these language groups are actually asking for missionaries to come in and give them the gospel. Um, the catch is that most of these language groups are incredibly remote, and so they're hard to get to on the logistical side of things. The logistics is crazy, trying to live out in the bush, uh, you know, our houses run off solar. Um, you know, you're just out in the middle of nowhere living in a village uh with these people. And um, so the logistics are hard, but the hunger is there. These people are really hungry, they want to know this message. Um, and so it's kind of different from a lot of other countries where maybe the country itself is close to the gospel or something like that. Um, but here in Papua New Guinea, there are so many languages that need to be reached. And so for us, um we like the idea in Colossians. Paul says, he basically gives his mission statement. He says, I'm proclaiming Christ and warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom. Why? So that I can present everyone mature in Christ. And so we said, Wow, if Paul's goal was to present people mature in Christ, uh fully grown up in Christ, what do they need for that to happen? Well, they need God's word and they need to be able to read it. And so we thought, man, we want to go with an organization that's committed to creating a literacy program for these people, uh, translating the Bible into their language, and then teaching them through the Bible so that God's word becomes the authority for them, uh, not us missionaries. They can look and go, oh, this is what God's word says. And that's something we can lead with me even after we go, uh, they'll be able to stand on their own. Um so that's kind of what draws to the one that he wanted us to move in with them.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Wow. And so it seems like there's there's a lot of collegiality, there's a lot of um community going around uh along around you. You are families together, you have a ascending agency, is that right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's right. We're with um Ethnos 360, um, and uh used to be New Tribes Mission, they changed the name recently. But yeah, it we're we're all sent out by local churches from the states, but then we're also under this organization that that's our ascending agency. And so we have leadership in Papua New Guinea that we work under, uh we get advice from. We have consultants uh in just about every area of our ministry, whether it's learning language, we have language consultants that help us uh figure out how to learn a language that no one's ever learned before. We have translation consultants, literacy consultants. So we have a whole community that's focused on helping us function well out here as a team, as the body of Christ represented in this language group. Uh, and they're we're getting advice from people who've already been there and done it. And that's huge, you know. We don't want to reinvent the will, we want to learn from those who've gone before us. And so that's something that really drew us to this is it's a model of the church fulfilling the great commission, not one person by themselves. And um, man, we just thought that's what scripture seems to portray is the church um trying to fulfill the great commission.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And just to add to what Jack said there, um yeah, we it not only do we have this network around us, us as our co-workers, our three families that live with the WandaKia, and and just the umbrella of the organization that we we work under and the accountability that we have within. But uh when we we first came into the country, uh we we had to come in as learners. Uh we had to uh uh learn the national language and culture we have and around the Wantiquia are other language groups, uh, some of them that have already been reached by the gospel, where missionaries uh some 20 and 30 years ago moved in, and the same process that we described that we are planning to do with the Wantiquia has already been done among them. And so our first step was not just uh to fly in here, uh parachute over what God is already doing and just parachute right in to live with the Wantiquia and sort of start our own thing. Our first step was to go and and ask these other churches from these other language groups, uh, you know, get their advice, ask them if if they wanted to partner with us in this endeavor. Uh, and uh and a few of those actually have have become uh really, I mean, strong uh mystery partner and what God desires to do.
SPEAKER_03That's fantastic. So this is uh a good background for now talking about what's happened in the last week. Um so in the news, uh there's been the story of John Alan Chow, who um 27 years old, and um felt that God had really laid it on his heart to bring the gospel to the Sentinelese, um, one of the most, if not the most remote tribe in the world. Um perhaps there's only a dozen or more, or you know, who knows? Between a dozen and and at tops, it seems like a hundred, um, live on this island. And uh he went first bringing gifts, and uh they shot at him, and he and he went back, and uh and he has been killed by this tribe, um saying to them, I love you, Jesus loves you. Um and so how how are we meant to think about John Alan Chow and what it means for us as Christians looking on, what it means for the world looking on, because I know that um kind of online there are a lot of non-Christians who for whom this is like completely baffling and um evil and dreadful and colonization and um and then there's also Christians looking on saying, hang on, not sure that that was the wisest thing to do. Um how do you guys think about it as as pioneer missionaries to to an otherwise unreached tribe yourselves?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, you know, uh this seems like a very big story now, even so much that it's reached us here in the jungles of Papua New Guinea. Uh so it's something we talked about. Um, yeah, first, yeah, just really saddened to hear uh about John's passing and and we we feel for his family. Uh we know that our families have made sacrifices for us to be here and for one of our family members to get the news like that about us would would be hard. Uh and so uh yeah, we definitely want to remember them uh and keep them in our prayers. Um yeah, I think as we talked about it, you know, uh these this brings up lots of issues uh with missions and what we believe about God, what we believe about those uh who haven't heard the gospel, um, what's their fate, what's what's at stake for them and their eternity. And um, these are all questions that you know we had to consider up front before even coming here. And and some of the answers to those questions are even why we're here uh in the middle of the jungle with the Watakia people. Uh so one thing I think is that uh it's an opportunity uh maybe for us as the church uh to really clarify some of these things uh that we believe and talk about them with um you know other believers. I think as we've we've thought about John, um one thing that stands out to us is really whether we agree with what he did or not, or his methods and what he was doing. Um, one thing that we talked about this afternoon was that really um what John did in our minds as we look at who God is in the scriptures is that he really put on display the heart of God. Um God has a great desire to make himself known to all people. Uh, we don't want to shy away from that as Christians. We want to tell, remind Christians of that. We want to tell unbelievers that hey, hey, God, he has a deep desire uh for you to know him, and so much so that uh he would take on flesh and come and live with you, and and he would come and die for you. And so I think as we've talked about John this afternoon, uh it sort of reminds us of a picture of the gospel, uh that that God has a deep desire for us to know him and that he's willing to lay down his life to make it so.
SPEAKER_03I mean, one of the one of the words that people are using about him has been foolhardy. And I was just thinking about that this morning and thinking in the context of 1 Corinthians 1, that you know, the the the Greeks look for wisdom, but Christ crucified shows up and and looks incredibly foolhardy. Um so I'm you know, I'm not saying that that's a blanket endorsement of everything that John did, but but it is it is a window onto something of the foolishness of the gospel. Here comes a God who says, I love you, um, even as they're spearing him. Um there is something profoundly gospel-shaped about that. Um Yeah, so I mean, what what are we what are we to make of um one of one of the big um critiques uh of what he did was was you know he he didn't learn the language, he didn't he didn't know how to communicate with the Sentinelese, and you guys have spoken about the hard work of four years learning the language. I mean, how how would you even begin to think about reaching the Sentinelese?
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, one thing we've talked about is, and we've already alluded to it earlier, is that the Great Commission is really meant to be done by the church. And so, I mean, reading a little bit about what happened, it sounds like for almost a decade he had had this burden to reach this language group. Um, and I don't know, in my opinion, I think one of the best uh next steps he could have taken was to go to the church in India. There are so many believers in India and say, Hey, what do you guys think about this language group? Have you guys been praying for them? Are you aware of them? Do you are you thinking of praying about reaching them and go to the national church there and try and partner with them and just see what they even think, and then also learn national language and culture and take some time to try and see, okay, what are maybe some culturally appropriate ways that we could go about this? But I think exploring that partnership with the church that's already in that country would have been a very important step. Um and so, but the other thing too that I think about is he's had this desire for so long, and yet I think he wrote, uh Man, if I die, who's gonna take my place? Like he felt totally alone, like he was the only person on the planet allowed to reach this language group. Um, and I thought, man, how many people in his life I wonder knew about this desire and who could have stepped in and walked with him and helped him plan or strategize or counseled him or uh something like that. Um, and so I see I don't and I don't know, I don't know all the details, but I wonder if the church could have played a bigger role in coming alongside him and helping him think through this desire to reach his people. Um, so those are two thoughts that came to my mind as far as maybe what some other deaths could have been.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And what about the issue of um disease? I mean, here is an isolated tribe that won't have built up the uh immunity to the sorts of diseases that we have immunity to. Is that something that you guys have had to think about as you've kind of gone into uh less reached tribes? I mean, what how do you think about that issue?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, we definitely get lots of immunizations before moving out here. Uh yeah, the problems in Papua New Guinea, there's tuberculosis out here. Um there are quite a few things out here that we don't have in the States very much anymore. Um, but yeah, from from their perspective, from the people, um in PNG, a lot of people have been immunized for for quite a few things. Um, so it's I guess it's less of an issue here um for us here in Papua New Guinea. Um but yeah, I mean that that would be a real thing to consider. I mean, you're thinking about the welfare of these people. Um on the flip side, though, there's the there's the whole idea of oh, well, these people must be happy the way they are, but we've lived with the Wantakeans for four years now, and they honestly just feel disenfranchised. Just this week they're saying, we are the last people on earth, we are the last people to get everything. We there's so many services we don't have, and they just feel disenfranchised. They don't they haven't had the opportunity yet for much education, uh for medical help. There are so many things where they just feel like our life out here is hard and we want help. Um, and so I think this idea that these people are just happy the way they are, leave them alone. But when you actually live with the people, you realize that their life is really difficult, and there are a lot of things they would want to change. And we in the West, we're industrialized, it'd be like me telling you, hey, you don't want the industrial revolution. Uh, it's not you you don't need that, you know. I I don't want you to have that, but I don't want to take away my industrial revolution that my society went through. I'm happy keeping that. So there's kind of a double standard that we place on a lot of these people. And I don't know if you want to share about the spiritual side of it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um, yeah, we've we've seen in some of the articles that we've read uh about this whole situation and and some of the comments that are that are coming in and some of the articles that are being written. Um yeah, you know, just from our experience, uh, and and we know lots of people who are in very similar context to us, not just in Papua New Guinea, uh, but really all over the world, uh, living with what we would call tribal people uh that that um would be considered as that. Um but yeah, you know, uh these these people as we've lived life with them. I mean, we live we live right in the middle of the village. Uh we see Everything that goes on here. Now we can communicate, we can hear them speaking. What we see, Jack alluded, that their life is hard, but not just that. Boils down to it. The way that these people view the world, the story that they live by, really as we consider it and compare it to the biblical story that God gives us, it couldn't be incomplete. It couldn't be more different. And so these people, man, speaking for us in the other context I mentioned, really it's a life that's that can be summarized by fear. They live in constant fear of the spirit world. They are continually trying to appease them and manipulate them so that either they can have success in life or avoid failure, which is what we see as really the most common case. And so whether they're going to their garden or doing things around their house or going hunting out in the bush, there's always this spiritual side of things, and it's always from a vantage point of fear. And so when we talk about uh replacing what they believe with what God's word uh says to be true, um, we we already know that these are gonna have tremendous consequences for their life in a good way. Uh, instead of being fearful of the spirits when they go out, they're gonna get to hear about the one who's already conquered the spirits. And so um, yeah, those those are just some of our perspectives after we've lived with uh the Wantikea people.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's a really strange feeling to be walking out in the bush with some of your good Wantakeean friends and feeling totally secure because they know the trails, and you feel like I'm in good hands. And then for them to turn and go, Jack, I am so freaked out right now. I think there might be a spirit over there. And you're like, wait, this is like your turf. You should be totally fine. You're like the ultimate mountain man, you know, but yeah, they're they're they're still afraid of these things. And so that's right.
SPEAKER_05And and here we are with them in total freedom, maybe not so sure about our footing on the mountain trail, but we're we're really sure uh with with the Lord Jesus by our side and living within us. Um, and so just it couldn't be you know more different between what God says and and what their worldview tells them.
SPEAKER_03So, what would you say to uh non-Christian journalists like uh here in the UK? Um, there's a journalist called Janet Street Porter, um, not a believer at all, and um, she wrote on on this issue. She said that the assumption that bringing Christ's word via the Bible to remote tribes will enrich the lives of isolated tribes is hard to stomach. It's hard to stomach. Uh she said um uh uh John Chow claimed that he wanted to introduce Christ to the Sentinelese, but why would their own culture not include a deity, a belief in the afterlife, or some sense of fulfilling spirituality? Why would his evangelical creed be superior or necessary? Why can't these zealots accept that some non-believers do not need the words of Jesus? What would you say to that?
SPEAKER_06Well, the obvious first answer is why does she think that her answer is superior enough to uh espouse in a way where, oh, these people don't need anything? Um, the other thing to think about is how can you say what's good for anyone if you don't know what the purpose of humanity actually is? If you don't know what the purpose of something is, you can't say whether it's good or bad. If I don't know the purpose of a shovel and I try to, I don't know, paint a picture with it. I can't say this is a bad shovel because that's not the purpose of the shovel, it's for digging. If it's bad at digging, then it's a bad shovel. So when you say, well, what could enrich the lives of people? Well, you have to know, you have to believe that there's an actual purpose for humanity to say something could be good or bad for them. And for us, we believe that the Bible lays out the purpose for humanity, that our purpose is to be one with God and to be a part of his family, and that because of sin, we're separated from that. And so the only way to achieve our true purpose is to be reconnected with God, and the way that for that to happen is to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so from that standpoint, that makes total logical sense. But from her standpoint, how could you even say what is good for anyone? Um, so I think that would be on the philosophical side, that'd be where she's being just as exclusive.
SPEAKER_05Um what we've already eluded. Yeah, that's right. And and and just from our experience in living with uh people who those like uh this lady you just quoted would say, you know, they're happy the way that they are, just leave them alone. Um, well, we've experienced that not to be the case. You know, we you know, just through our process of learning their language and their culture and being with them and doing everything they do, uh hearing all of their stories, um, you know, having them say, you know, in our all-night singings that we do, we stay up all night and we sing, we sing, and and we tell our children about the spirit world and we warn them that there's spirits there and there's spirits here, and that you don't need to go there, you need to be afraid of those spirits. And and then as we sit around and sing and discuss, we we think about our future and our eternity, uh, and we don't know, we don't know why we're here, and we don't know what's gonna happen to us when we die. Um, we we sit around and we sing about these things and we talk about these things and and we do it in tears sometimes. Um and so to live here and experience that and see that firsthand, um, you know, I would challenge someone who has that perspective, come live for a moment in their shoes. Come come become one of them and and hear them speak and see what they do, and and then and then maybe determine whether you think they're happy, whether you what you determine is happy or not, uh, and see what you think uh if that's true or not.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, very wise, very wise. So tell me tell me some encouraging stories of what you what you've seen and uh among the people that you work with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, you know, this has been uh we've we've sort of said this was a you know a terrible process to try to learn language, and and some of it has been, but the highlights have been the relationships that we've gotten to build uh with the Wantikea people. You know, we're we're looking at Jesus' life. Uh, you know, he is our example. Uh he he he came to earth, he took on flesh, and uh, you know, it says he dwelt among us. Uh, and so you know, with Jesus as our example, that's what we're here doing with the Wantikia, these relationships we've built uh have been great, and we feel like the Lord is really using those our times with them uh to really prepare the hearts of the Wantikia for the gospel. And so now that we've learned their language and beginning the process of translating the Bible into their language, uh we're we're going through lots of a big process to make sure that God's word actually is accurate when we translate it, that it's very clear to them when they hear it, and then it sounds natural uh to them. And so as we go out and we're reading some of the portions that we we've translated, we're uh and for them to say to us, hey, we've we've never heard any sort of talk like this. This talk, you know, talk that I usually hear, I hear it sort of up here in the clouds, but the the the talk that you're telling me right now, I'm hearing it all the way in my stomach. And so it's just really cool for us to get to see uh, you know, we're we're not even there to, we haven't gotten to the point where we're even teaching them yet, but as we're reading and checking God's word to see how powerful it is already, uh are some of the really cool things that we're getting to do right now with the one.
SPEAKER_06And it's just among some of our best friends now, some of these guys have been so faithful to meet with us every single week. They've got other work they could be doing, but they want to help us and they believe that this message is important. And for four years now, they've been meeting with us consistently, and it's just so cool to build these uh friendships. You know, people are people, no matter where you are in the world, and man, you start to learn about their family lives and about their dreams and just uh what makes them sick and their sense of humor, and they're not just these remote tribal people anymore, they're your friends. And so doing life with them that way, you really earn the right to speak into their lives. And we start off as learners. We're daily humbled by making mistakes in language, you know, and you're just humbled over and over and over, but gradually you start to shift from being the learner to the teacher, and that's kind of the shift that's happening right now. And they have told us so many times, oh, Jack, Jeremy, VJ, we can't wait. We're we're happy to teach you, but we can't wait till you get to be our teachers and we get to hear this message. And so that's what's happening now, and it's just really cool, it's really encouraging.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant. So, final question. Um, as you've lived among the Wantakea, how have you started to see the gospel differently? How have you started to understand some of the riches of the scriptures um in a deeper way as you've walked alongside them?
SPEAKER_06Oh man, you know, I think one danger that happens a lot, especially in the West, is what they call split-level Christianity, where basically Christianity is there to give you an answer for the afterlife, and an answer for what comes next after you die, and that's really what it's all about. And so for the here and now, there it you don't really talk too much about how the gospel impact my day-to-day life, and that's sort of what happens in the West a lot. And since we've been living here among the Wantikeans, like I said, you see how difficult their life is, and you see that man, they have so many hardships day to day. The gospel has to impact their day-to-day life, and it's really caused us to examine our view of the gospel and how does Christ's spirit in us empower us to live a more enriched life and to live uh like and fulfill his purposes for us and fulfill us and uh give us strength when we're I think that aspect of the gospel and how it impacts our day-to-day life has really um kind of become a lot more clear to us. And as we think about how we're going to teach them about the gospel, we we're thinking, man, we've gotta make sure they understand how it impacts in day-to-day life.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think I think for me personally, um, yeah, I think I I would have said before coming and living with the Wantiquilla with my my wife and my three girls that I needed the Lord and I was dependent upon him. But um living out here for the past three or four years, um, that has really become obvious. Um, and so the Lord has really shown me my weakness, and I'm so thankful for it, you know, because the scriptures tell us that uh when we're weak, Christ's strength is made perfect. And so um, yeah, I think just us having to depend on the Lord to do such a difficult thing. I mean, just living out in the jungle, uh, even though Jack already described some of the physical hardships about that, those are challenging in themselves, but you tack on living in another culture that's not your own, trying to do something that is so far beyond you, like learn an unwritten language, uh, has really brought us to our knees in weakness. And and we feel like the Lord uh has really uh given us new strength. You know, my my theme verse for basically the last four years is Isaiah 40. You know, there's young men that grow weak and weary, but those who wait on the Lord receive new strength. And uh that's been true in all of our lives, I think. We've we've had to continue to wait on the Lord for new strength, and He continues to give it to us.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we've really seen the faithfulness of God. I mean, it's it's not just an idea, it's reality pretty much every day.
SPEAKER_03So wonderful. Wonderful. And if people want to keep up uh with you guys, would uh reachwantea.com. Would that be a good place to to keep up with uh your story?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, that's a great place. Our videos and blogs and things like that, we put them on that site. So that'd be a great place to track along and see uh what's happening in Wantikea.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we we'd love anyone who's watching this and anyone who may go and find out more on the website there to continue to pray for our missionary team. Uh, but just or more as importantly, to continue to pray for the Wantiquia. We're shooting for sometime next year, 2019, that we're gonna open up the pages of the Bible that the Lord has helped us translate with the Wantiquia people, and we're gonna get to tell them uh in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And so these are exciting times for us with the Wantikia people, and and we would just want any of you who are listening to this to be praying that God in this next year would be preparing their hearts to hear that message.
SPEAKER_03Fascinating, fascinating interview. And if you want to hear the full uh interview, we'll have it on the podcast and we'll have it on the uh the YouTube uh video. Yep. That we'll make uh of this. But I just absolutely loved uh the wisdom of Jack. Um just their their in particular kind of uh talking about wanting to bring maturity to um you know the tribe that they were reaching, not just wanting to see converts who uh make a decision uh and you know tick the box and get to heaven, but wanting to see wanting to see churches behind them, wanting to see church around them, wanting to see the local church on the ground, reaching beyond itself into the jungle, wanting to Yeah, really wanting to see Jesus lifted up in in a way that is not the um is not just seeking conversions, but is seeking discipleship um for the sent for the Sentinelese and and in their case uh for those in Papua New Guinea. But um Yeah, what what are some of your reflections on on the wisdom of those who are actually on the ground, actually doing it and and and investing the the time in it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean I think it's interesting the bit they were saying just at the end there about you know the the the church in India and uh it reminds me of I think it was I forget what the guy's name is now. I read his book a while ago, Revolution in World Missions. Oh yeah. Um I know it. I know it's um but he was talking about how uh the you know the the old mentality is kind of you know west to the rest and that but actually what they've seen, I think it was in India kind of where he was. So actually they're raising up local evangelists, people who know the culture, know the area, and they themselves are the ones who then reach out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and I mean obviously you can't raise up someone who is Sentinelese, but I mean uh someone in India culturally is far more likely to be closer to the Sentinelese, I guess, in in many ways. Yeah. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It was KP Johanna, by the way. Gospel for Asia. Um yeah, a great a great organisation. That that again is is looking to resource churches on the ground and not parachute over them and and you know that can be a huge danger, can't it?
SPEAKER_01It seems crazy though, I mean that he cause because uh reading about it, it does seem that this is something it was a long-term thing for him. It wasn't just you know he was in the area and thought, well, let's give this a go. He was burdened with this thing for almost a decade and had thought about it and you know trained for it or whatever. It seems strange that it was just him by himself. You know, there wasn't even a team there. Right. Um thinking like who's gonna take over from me? Which which again is is you know, this this question of the just the wisdom behind it and stuff. But I mean uh b also maybe what I took from those guys is that you know, what are they now? They're kind of four years. Yeah. And in a sense they're saying next year we might get to do some Bible. Right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Um which is you know, which is great, but it's taken that long to to kind of assimilate and to learn the language, yeah, know the get to know the people, yeah, and just become part of the group. Yeah. Um and I mean, you know, who's to say whether the sentineles will will ever be reached, but yeah. Um maybe it's a longer thing than just turning up with a few bits and saying Jesus loves you. Yeah, it totally is. Um it totally is. But I mean we we we we know that in our we know that even in our culture here. Yeah. We I mean we it's very rare that we just we we expect just to rock up to someone and bash out some gospel lines and whatnot. Right. I mean we do because you're gonna do it, but like in three two one in ninety seconds. No. But you know, no, you know what I mean. We always talk about the relation it's relational, isn't it? Often, and it you have that relationship with people and you build the relationships and you share your life with them, and they share their life with you, and there's that witness through that, and then there were those m opportunities to sweep Jesus into that. Yeah. Um that's not the only way. Um and there are those moments where just suddenly you know, there are those those times where there's no relation relational thing and stuff just happens.
SPEAKER_03Um I'm reminded of uh like the Korean peninsula before there was North and South Korea uh around about the the turn of the last century. And you you you had these perilous missions, you know, there was a there was a Welsh missionary, I forget his name, who was on the boat and um yeah, the the the locals did not want to receive any Westerners. And and yet he had this sort of shipment of Bibles and that kind of thing. And and and he died without I think without stepping foot on the Korean peninsula. And yet one of the one of the people who kind of ordered the death of this man ended up plastering pages of the Bible around his home, using it as wallpaper and then reading it and then coming to Christ. And you know, and and then there was an extraordinary turnaround on the Korean peninsula, and around about the turn of the century, the you know, through through prayer-filled revivals, there was you know and and today there's fifty percent of of uh of South Korea are Christian and uh and are actually in church or something, like fifty percent in church. I mean, that's just extraordinary. And it all started with what you might have seen as as a tragic gesture from someone who barely set foot on the on on the peninsula.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I think i again I think it was Babylon B that just said like I think their closing remark was something along the lines of how you know his stuff has achieved absolutely nothing apart from all those thousands of Christians now made aware of the North Antilles and praying for them. You know, like Yeah. And obviously to the to the outsider that that that is nothing. But you just don't know, do you?
SPEAKER_03In the wisdom of God, he will lose he will use what looks foolish um in order to achieve his ends. And and uh again, that's not to endorse every aspect of the strategy uh of James Alan Chow, but it is to recognize that actually God works through the foolish things of this world to shame the wise and who know, who knows about that. But um I I I love uh I love the guys Jeremy and Jack and and Reach uh Wantakiya. Um if you want to check out some of their stuff, um they've got a great website, Reach Wantakea, and Wantakiya is spelt W-A-N-T-A-K-I-A. Want Achia. So it's like want IKEA. But it's not it's A Kia. A-K-I-A at the end. And they've got videos about what they're doing, videos about their their methodology, you know, they've got this five five-step sort of process of of learning the language and getting the language into a written form and then translating the Bible into their um, you know, understanding they're kind of at that stage. Um having begun the translation work, they're now at the stage of kind of checking the translation with the locals. And does this sound like what you would say? Because we we want you to hear God's word as though it was spoken by God in a conversation with you. That it come it comes home to you in your mother tongue.
SPEAKER_01Was it those guys who were saying that they basically had to like make an alphabet and things with them? Right. Like there's literally no written language. That's not a written language. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy kind of commitment right there, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03And they're hoping in 2019 they'll be able to launch with Genesis 1-1 and begin teaching. And they're they were sort of saying, you know, at the moment they're just totally in learning mode because they're just learning from the locals. And and uh and the locals are just saying, look, we we love learning from you. We can't we can't wait to learn from you. Uh we we we love teaching, we can't learn wait to to learn from you this this epic story. Uh because they're saying, you know, they they just don't have a concept of whatever it is beyond the hills. Like what is it beyond their the horizon? They just don't know and imagine just imagine the thrill of being able to bring in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth with a cosmic vision.
SPEAKER_01It's yeah, it's hard it's just hard to get ahead around, isn't it? Because at least I mean for us, obviously we tend to we we might travel places but we are still in one kind of area on the whole. But we have this picture of the scope of the world and the universe. You know, but if you're just living in that kind of community where your world is however many hundred kilometres around you and not a lot else, yeah, if that's you know, the right it's just mind-boggling, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Like and the other thing that that they were mentioning is and it was g it goes to that message that uh someone uh made on Facebook, the comment that actually um so much of the spiritualism of the locals is grounded in fear. And there's a spirit behind that tree, and there's a spirit down in that valley, and you don't want to go over there because the spirit there's a bad spirit here, bad spirit there. And and just the the fear that they live in, you know, minute by minute. And the difference that the Christians are able to kind of model in just you know walking through the land. And then you know, they're not afraid of these spiritual forces because Jesus is Lord.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And here's the story of the guy who had authority over demons and cast them out and which is quite powerful in a in a community like that, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And wouldn't you want to if you see a culture like that that is bound by fear, wouldn't you want to liberate them? Wouldn't you want to free them? them what's the liberal thing to do? Janet wouldn't. Janet, wow. But she wants to she wants to liberate the Muslim woman from the burqa. Why does she not want to, you know, liberate the the the Wanta Wantachians? Yeah, the Wantachians from spiritual bondage and fear. Like why does she not want to liberate them on that level? And you know, so yeah, there's there's a lot of double think going on there. But um yeah do be praying for for Reach Wantachea and how they want to Yeah bring the the the wisdom and the liberating power of Jesus to Papua New Guinea. And uh yeah I was I was just so blessed by uh chatting with them. Um so we we had a we had a problem just with the the playing of the interview just then but we'll have the full interview um on the YouTube version of this and we'll have the full uh interview on the podcast version of this as well. So uh we're also monitoring what's happening with our desire to launch into space. Andy where are we up to in launching launching into space? Yes oh well I think there might be failure to launch there might be there might be travel in the launch. Maybe man just isn't made for the stars such a defeatist attitude but you might be right you might be right so it might it might be it might be beyond 2 pm I'm afraid people it might be more like 4 pm but it'll come it'll come do we have a chance to show people the trailer should be there I think the trailer should be there. This is really worth having a look at let's watch the trailer for on earth as in heaven for many. How about that? Looks pretty good I'd see the film. Doesn't it? I'd go it looks good and sounds it sounds even better. So Josh Lucas did a great job on the music and uh Liam Camps uh was doing the editing on that and uh yeah just just loved thinking around that issue of um we're not gonna play that yet Andy but um in a in a second but just uh just loved um playing around with that quote by uh James Irwin the eighth man on the moon he said God walking on the earth is more important than man walking on the moon yeah and uh I keep on getting that quote wrong I always see God walking on the moon is more important Wait a minute no God walking on the earth is more important than man walking on the moon I think it's gonna really be really really good and I'm but I'm already anticipating the uh people coming out saying like well the moon landing was fake just like your phony religion like I am ready for that I'm ready for this one like I am totally ready for that because they I think I think the analogy is totally apt like totally like I think have you ever seen the Michelin Webb sketch where they talk about faking the moon landing?
SPEAKER_01That'd be my afternoon.
SPEAKER_03So basically that they have this conversation so they're they're in the Ministry of Defense and they're they're saying well the Russians have uh are saying they they're gonna reach the moon.
SPEAKER_01Oh is this the kind of repeated idea where they're always at the end of the sketch they find out that this has just happened.
SPEAKER_03No they think the Russians are about to reach the moon so they say right we've got to hoax a moon landing. And then the and then they say so what do we need to hoax a moon landing? Well we actually need a a large rocket because like we can't just we can't just show people pictures of the moon because they'll ask how did you get there? And we need to be able to say on that vast rocket that just blasted out of the Earth's atmosphere obviously and then they said well how much is the rocket going to be and then and they were like well that that that is pretty much the bulk of the cost of reaching the moon. And then they're like so is it going to cost as much to fake it as it is to actually go to the moon? And then the person says actually I think it'll be less costly because you won't have to worry about catering. So we'd actually make a saving if we went to the moon because the hoax would be more costly than the genuine thing. Yeah yeah and so my point like if people want to say that Jesus God walking on the earth was hoaxed just as man was walking on the moon was hoaxed, I I want to say actually it would be more extraordinary if it was a hoax. Yeah. Like like yeah what it would cost you if it was a hoax is that you die for a lie and all that kind of stuff in the New Testament. So well bring it then bring the comparison conspiracy theories bring the conspiracy theories because if you are a Jesus mythicist you're basically like uh a moonwalk hoaxer. That's what that's what you're like there I said it I said it. Um so I think we're not gonna make our 2 pm launch but that's okay. Hang on there people hang on there we'll we'll be with you uh later on this afternoon with with a launch both of that trailer which we hope you you share around the place uh but also this documentary it's a 12 minute documentary um talking about how going up into the heavens man going up into the heavens was costly it was dangerous but it was worth it uh but God coming to earth was exactly the same costly dangerous but worth it um and uh churches you can use it as well there's a great point halfway through the 12 minutes right at the six minute mark where you can pause it and if you want to go to uh a carol and then come back and and watch the second half I think that could be a great way of doing it. So we will launch uh those two videos the 90 second video and the 12 minute video later this afternoon but we've got one more thing to do before we go and Andy can you um go to the browser and uh let's let's play an old video that I quite enjoy and we'll tell you why in a second.
SPEAKER_02Is that faith?
SPEAKER_03Great Paul Will you really impressed us with a life of tireless sacrificial service giving up both kidneys was a really lovely gesture but I'm afraid it was Andy who actually got his theology correct so Andy why don't you come on in and uh have a lovely time the bar's just there on the left and uh Paul uh if you've got any complaints please do take them up with management downstairs wouldn't it be ridiculous that's all we need that's all we need and uh where is it we cut into me every time because I'm never ready I'm never ready scratching my face now the reason we did that Andy do you do you have a do you have your selfie um camera ready um because that's that's one of my favorite scenes from uh from Andy's long career at Speak Life Andy has Andy Cam has Andy's been with us since 2000 is that right the year 2000 amazing so eighteen years uh back in the day the Hour of Revival Association and uh we've been speak life for a few years now and uh I I love that that clip of Andy getting into heaven ahead of you because he had his theology right but uh Andy's been a tireless servant for uh Speak Life for so many years and we just couldn't have done what we've done um over the years. Radio outputs and podcast outputs and videos and Facebook and YouTube and website and every every IT crisis prompt.
SPEAKER_01There's gonna be a lot more of those now I feel spike in IT. And day it's when the entire live cast is done through mime because I can't get the sound working.
SPEAKER_03So yeah. So uh it is a sad and fond farewell uh for you Andy but uh thanks so much uh for all you've done as a as a servant of the gospel um for us and and you know the mission the mission of this charity has reached millions and and you've been a big part of that so uh thank you so much and we wish you all the best in the future. There he is Andy Cam. Unexpected how brilliant um so I think that's that'll that'll do us for now. I think yeah we've we've covered a number of things so we'll we'll tidy up a few errors in the YouTube version and in the podcast version and uh yeah do do download the uh the uh the YouTube or the the podcast because that uh interview with Jeremy and Jack uh was really heartwarming and I I loved talking to them earlier today. We get to hear the whole thing. Yeah. Brilliant well uh thank you so much for joining us this week and uh we should have a sign off what's our sign off I don't know keep smiling touchdown the three two one blast off yeah yeah keep speaking live how about that yeah anyway yeah bye great take care