The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_08If I should die, think only this. A bullet flew by that did not miss. What story of the war is told? Romance bright or horror cold? Triumph's tale or tragic loss? The iron or the wooden cross? Lost lament or victor's boast? Full brass band or lone last post? Heroes, villains, cowards, kings, it's war. It's all these things. It's us, unleashed, for good and ill, the gallant heart, the savage will, a Kaiser's pride, a nation's fear, a global greed. It's all in here. What causes war? The old book asks. Beyond the history, beneath the masks begins a want, becomes a will, demands its way, prepares to kill. The wars we mark as long ago are close to home. They're all we know. What ceases war? The pressing question. What can halt inborn aggression? To end all wars and retribution, war itself is no solution. Can terror end all terror now? Brute force subdue itself and bow? Can darkness drive out darkened dread? Or death extinguish death instead? We need to interrupt the spiral, find the anti-retroviral. The story is told in anti-Zus, a god of peace, made human truce into our world, into our midst, a walking, talking armistice. To stand and turn the other cheek, to take the blow, absorb disgrace, then rise to give again his face in grace undimmed and arms unfurled, to bless and pacify the world. A new sweet surrender brought, forgiveness be a battle's fought, peace to pass to every soul, then warfare cease and hold up. And uh we've got with us uh video maker Dan Rackham. It's great to be here, thank you very much. Award-winning Go Chatter Videos Entrepreneur, and how else should we describe you, Dan?
SPEAKER_03That's enough. I quite enjoy kithing. And kite surfer.
SPEAKER_08Kite surfer. Yeah. Video maker. World champion kite surfer. Uh no. Six years running. I don't know. We just we just make stuff up. Uh in the future. In the future. And uh oh, Paul Feasy is here as well. Everybody. And uh we don't have a camera that has all of us in. Well, one one reason is because there's too many of us. So we are uh wedged into uh our little sound booth and uh and Andy is wedged into the corner, and if there is a fire, we just pray. I think we just do that. But uh yes, thank you for joining us uh over your lunch. Do feel free to keep on munching, that's fine. We don't we we we we won't be offended if you eat your sandwich while you uh watch along with us. Uh but we just had our um uh Remembrance Day video to End All Wars. I guess we filmed that uh oh gosh, four years ago, something like that. And uh and out it went. But Dan, you um with GoChatter Videos are involved with collecting together all sorts of videos like that on similar themes in order to resource the church. Tell us some of the wisdom behind GoChatter videos.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, certainly. Well, we felt that it was worth collecting together a whole load of good material that's out there, Christmas videos. Uh these ones are remembrance, there's three on the channel. Um there's about I think twenty or twenty-five Christmas videos, and I'm aware that there's so much good content out there, but where do you find it? How do you download it? So I headed out to various organizations who gave us permission to make those videos available to download. And churches have been checking our websites, downloading them and using them in church services.
SPEAKER_08Fantastic. So uh Andy is now taking us to gochattervideos.com. You can go there yourselves and you can go up to categories. And for instance, if you typed in or just uh selected Christmas down there, you would get all these uh many videos, including Meet the Nativity, including the award-winning wrapping paper uh that just won a premier premier digital award. Um that was uh the Co Mission Churches in London. Um so actually, do you want to yeah, do you want to go to that, Andy, and and just see that once you get to that page, uh it's very simple to then download it. You could play it there or you could download it, and um uh and and there's also some resources uh moving down that sort of tell you about the um the video. And then you've even done some possible questions that people could ask if you were gonna watch the video with a friend.
SPEAKER_03And is that is that the hope that's right, or maybe a youth group, but you know you might want to uh chip in some questions just to get a bit of discussion going, and the transcript there as well uh and how you'd share the video.
SPEAKER_08Fantastic. And so there there is a remembrance section there with with our video video, you've done a video as well, and that sort of thing. And uh you won an award for for Go Chatter Videos just on Saturday, is that right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what a joy. We were at the Premier Digital conference, which was a great day, meeting with other Christians and just being inspired about how we can use digital uh to get people to talk about who Jesus is. I was greatly encouraged and uh You were the People's Choice Award, is that right? Yeah, yeah, fantastic. I was delighted with that. It's just I think a little bit of an encouragement to keep going with this bit of a ministry.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, absolutely, and uh and we wish you great success with it. Um because it it is just such a great resource for people around festivals, everyone's looking for stuff to to either share on online or to use in youth groups and church services, and so yeah, people should go there. And if they go there, they will find your remembrance um video as well. Uh so you you bring up some really interesting points in that remembrance video about how it is that we can speak of Christ and the gospel at this time of year. What what what do you think is wisdom for us if we're maybe a a youth leader about to give a talk or if we're preaching perhaps on Sunday? What are the sorts of things you think we can say that will sort of lift up the name of Jesus at this time of remembrance?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm particularly struck. I mean, we're a hundred years on from the end of World War One, and I'm amazed, you know, I'm struck by just how much debt I owe to those service men and women who went and fought, uh, who served at the front lines, and ultimately many of them gave up their lives. Um I'm I'm very grateful as I as I come to this period and and think and remember on that. The Bible um says that uh there's no greater love than to give up, to lay down one's life for one's friends. There's no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends, and that's exactly what those service men and women did. Um, you know, they went out there, and many of them did pay the ultimate price, um, laying down their lives for their friends, for their children, for their children's children, for uh their families back home. And uh I mean that's remarkable. Yeah, what a debt we owe. Yeah, um, but at the same time, the Bible says that uh God showed his great love by sending his son to die in our place when we were still his enemies. Right. So, you know, I wasn't a friend of God, uh and yet Jesus came down and and died a horrific death um for not just his his friend, but but for me as as an enemy, you know, somebody who didn't care anything about God's rules or or wanted God out of my life, or didn't sort of praise him or bring him glory. Um and so I'm struck that that is great love on on an even big bigger scale. An even more extraordinary sacrifice. Yeah, and that and then Jesus and then God offers us almost this rescue and you know offers offers us in terms of peace. Um if we come to him, then Jesus' death buys our freedom. And um, you know, Jesus' sacrifice offers us eternal life and peace with God.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. Not just the peace of the armistice a hundred years ago, but ongoing, eternal, global peace. Yeah, doesn't the world crave that? Um yeah, I'm gonna be speaking this Sunday um at a service, and of course it's it'll be the eleventh of the eleventh on Sunday, and and um I think my one of my ways in, I think, is to kinda have a look at uh James chapter four, where um James says, What is it that cause f causes fights and quarrels among you? And then he says, Is it not your desires that wage war within you? Um and so yeah, it's all it's all well and good pointing at the Kaiser or pointing at Hitler or pointing at all these other warmongers. Um you know, last time I gave this talk, I said, you know, it's not just about the the wars that are in history, it's about the wars that are in our hearts. Some of us had a war in the car on the way here. And there was lots of nervous laughs. There was lots of nervous laughs. I was like, oh, I struck a he knows a chord, yeah, yeah. So yeah, what is the cause of war? You know, is it nationalism, is it globalism, is it this ism? Is it capitalism, communism? What uh what are the what's the cause of war? No, me. Yeah. It's me. And so what is it that's going to bring peace? Yeah, it is that great sacrifice of Christ and the peace that he offers. So lots of opportunities. Uh this remembrance.
SPEAKER_05Uh yeah, just saying we've got a few people here. Uh Amy Robinson just saying about the GoChatter resource, saying like awesome resource. Is there a way to suggest videos for it? How can people begin to how do you how do you collate them? Where do you get them from? Which videos would you want to suggest then? I'm just wondering. She's just saying asking for a friend.
SPEAKER_03Well, actually, actually, Amy, um I was just showing some of your videos, awesome work. Um I we have got a form which people can fill out, um, but by all means get in touch with me. My email is dan at gochattervideos.com. But ultimately, we would love to redevelop this site so that people can suggest and and maybe even upload their own uh videos um so that so that so that churches can can download those easily. Fantastic. Do get in touch. Thank you.
SPEAKER_08Do search for Armistice Sonnets on Facebook. We put a we put a link in the comments section of the Facebook uh video. But uh you can search for yourself on on uh Facebook Armistice Sonnets and you'll get four. Not one, not two, not three, four of uh Amy Robinson's brilliant sonnets. And uh they are great uh videos that you can share online or use offline. So yeah.
SPEAKER_05Cool. And also just to s uh Elliot Locke I was asking the question uh just generally about this our whole discussion here. Is there another way to listen to it? Not just on Facebook? Yes, you can get this as a podcast. Uh speaklife.org.uk forward slash SLP, which is short for Speak Life Podcasts. You can go there and find them and download them, or wherever you get your podcasts, you can add just uh add us to your feed and get it.
SPEAKER_08Or on YouTube. YouTube as well. Yeah. And speaking of YouTube, uh you you kind of started being a YouTuber about four years ago. Is that right? Isn't that just a tremendous waste of everybody's time? Like why why why be on why be on YouTube and what are you what are you hoping to achieve on YouTube?
SPEAKER_03Sure. It probably does waste a lot of my time. But um I felt I felt it was worth investing in creating videos. I also quite enjoyed it as well. The the uh I'm I'm not like a uh a video professional, not done a degree in how to use a camera, but I just watched a whole load of YouTube tutorials and figured out okay, this is how you do it. Um I enjoyed um putting together short videos that got gave people a flavour, a window into uh uh what was going on in Liverpool. I'd go to some events, uh music events, or um we had uh Liverpool's by the coast, or we had quite a few um events that were um you know on the river or uh where boats came into the pool.
SPEAKER_08What was that? Was that the QE2 or was that the well the three queens came in? Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So those sort of events I went along, just enjoyed them, documented them in short videos, and uh I found that people quite enjoyed that. You see, people from Liverpool love anything to do with Liverpool. Right. Yeah, yeah. People from Liverpool, you know, yeah they just really champion Liverpool. Somebody's got to, isn't it? It's a great place it's a great place to live. I lived there for four years. Yeah, um, and um I did that uh and really enjoyed doing that, but also found that people then were fairly interested in checking out my videos that I'd done about my church and what was going on there. So I don't know, a weekend away that we did at church, I made a short video about it. Or some of our services, I made a short video about that, and we did something called Toxas Got Talents. Uh obviously a rip-off of some TV programme. Yeah. Um and uh I I made a short video about that with uh some short seg segments um of a talk that just pointed people to who Jesus was. So I was aiming to be myself and uh document what happened in Liverpool in the hope that people all say were interested in what was going on in my church and might start to ask questions about well, who is who is Jesus?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, so you started to see a lot of traction online, you started to see ways in which you could draw people to to the message of the gospel, and then you started doing it like for a living, and and you've been doing that for for for quite some time now. And now you're trying to think about ways of raising up more people to do this sort of stuff, and we're we're trying to think of the same. So we've been we've been banging our heads together um in a creative way um for the last couple of days, trying to think of um yeah, how how do we harness a whole bunch of creative talent that also wants to make a noise for Jesus online? How do we study together, go on mission together, and produce resources together? And we've come up with a little idea called the Foundry.
SPEAKER_03Sounds exciting.
SPEAKER_08Sounds exciting. What do you what's exciting you about the Foundry?
SPEAKER_03I think um the chance that uh as m as just me making YouTube videos, I have a little bit of an impact. But actually, if if we were able to encourage and spur on others to be making content and to be living as a Christian in in whatever uh uh sphere that was digitally, I just think that that that could be that could be wonderful in terms of other people being reached. But I guess that your friends respect you and my friends sort of respect me. To your face anyway. And um I I think I think if we can encourage individuals to be contacting and putting out stuff and and being a Christian witness through their social media platforms, then then there can be so much greater impact than just me making videos about Liverpool.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah. And so we we want to reach out to creative people, you guys, you who are listening in. Um so you guys, you obviously know something about social media. Here you are on Facebook, or maybe you're listening on YouTube, or maybe you're listening on a podcast. Um social media is some part of your life. Um could it be uh that you could help us? Um and could it be that we could help you in putting a bit of Jesus out there through our social media content? And so there's lots of different buy-ins. Uh and so, you know, would you like to come to a meetup where um like-minded creatives get together and start thinking about how we can make a noise for Jesus? Or would you like to come to a weekend? Or would you like to come to a a week of of training and uh and hands-on activity? Or would you like to come uh to an internship? Uh down here in Eastbourne, we'd love to run an internship for one or two years uh where we study together, where we go on mission together, where we produce resources together. And uh I I can see this being a really exciting time of we want to call it this foundry because we've got this idea of forging evangelists and evangelistic resources, iron sharpening iron and kind of the the the iron smelting furnace together. And I and I think something can happen when you get people together, and especially creatively minded people. Um we become far more than the sum of our parts. And I think we could we could then be a resource for other churches, we could then pump out stuff online, and I think we could raise up creative evangelists and and give them the the technical training and the theological training to stand them in good stead for the rest of their lives, so that they can be servants of the church, so that they can preach Jesus in the creative space and so that we can keep on producing resources. So I think it's exciting. Um so if if this could be you or if this could be a friend, um the if if you're just hearing me describe that and you think, oh yeah, so and so. Um can you direct them, please, or can you go to speaklife.org.uk slash foundry. Um we we made this page about an hour ago. So um not that phase. So speaklife.org.uk slash foundry. Foundry is spelt found R Y. Foundry, like that. And uh down there, there's just a little form that you can fill out so we can get your details and capture those. Um stay tuned to that page. There'll be many more things that we'll let you know about. But uh, if you go there, we'd love to start a conversation with you. And uh who knows at what level you could buy in. Maybe you could just come to a meetup, maybe you just want to be kept abreast of what's going on, maybe you could come for a year, maybe you could come for two years, who knows? Um, but we'd love to to get this foundry off the ground because uh Jesus is worth it. Yeah. Brilliant. Anything more to say, Dan?
SPEAKER_03No, I'm just excited about the possibility of getting together with other creatives. Yeah. I've I've always felt when I'm with other people creating content, it is so much more effective. Like I I guess I've probably created about 80, 90 videos on YouTube, and the best ones have been ones where I've written a script, I've sent it around to 10 or 20 friends, and they fed in ideas, and then I've got other people who have been involved acting or presenting, and you know, collaborations I I just feel um have got much have got much better as I've been working with other people.
SPEAKER_08Yes, yes, totally. We are stronger together. Yeah, fantastic. Um so do check out that foundry, do uh that page and do share it with your friends. Um another video we'd love to see on GoChatter, so we'll we'll go and fill out this form in a second. But uh there's a a video that uh we put out there just last night uh called The Good News in Ninety Seconds, and maybe you'll see it uh on Gochattervideos.com. But before then, uh you can see it right here. Andy, hit it.
SPEAKER_06In the beginning there was light and life and love. A father loving his son in the joy of the Holy Spirit, and everything has come from light and life and love. But we look today at the world and we see it's not like that. We see a world full of darkness and death and disconnection. Where's that come from? Well, we've turned from the light, and when you turn from light, where else do you go but darkness? When you turn from love, where else do you go but disconnection? When you turn from life, where else do you go but death? But then what does love do when love sees the beloved in trouble? Love says, Your pit will be my pit. Your death will be my death, your darkness will be my darkness, your death will be my death. So is Jesus Jesus? You in the darkness, you might you in this, you want my life, you in this connection, you want my love. And anyone who turns and says yes to Jesus, we now belong to him. We get his father as our father, we get his spirit as our spirit, we get his future as our future. It's for free and it's forever. So do you want Jesus?
SPEAKER_08That's the good news in 90 seconds. Um that was based on uh a video that uh Premier Radio made about this time last year. Not this time last year, we were doing Meet the Nativity, um, our Christmas video, and um annoyingly, at the very same time as we were like pouring body and soul and blood, sweat, and tears into Meet the Nativity, um Premier Radio kind of clipped out a 90-second uh answer to a question that uh Sam Hales asked me and uh turned it into a video and it got more views than all four episodes of Meet the Nativity combined. Um so uh but what I f what I got from that was that actually Christians really actually when they hear when they hear the goodness of the good news, they um they really like it. Which is good. It's good to know that Christians like the gospel. Um and what you like you share, and so out it went, and it and it got six hundred plus thousand thousand views and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Um but how could how could you improve on that? Well, you could get rid of my face for a start. No comments. Yeah, uh that's yeah, I should be heard and not seen. then uh yeah josh bannister did some great uh music behind it and dan jones an an illustrator did some great illustration so I hope that this does just as well as as the last video but you know but that's down to you people that's down to you what are you gonna do are you gonna are you gonna be able to share it out uh online so there's a there's a YouTube version of it a Facebook version of it so uh sharing is caring let's get it out there yeah um and at this stage um let's just uh highlight a couple of ways that people um can give towards our ministry because you know the gospel in 90 seconds the these these videos um we offer totally for free um but if you want to support uh the ministry here we are entirely supported by people like you um people who believe in our ministry people who have uh found use in our ministry and you know people give towards Netflix and gym membership and why not why not give towards uh speak life as well it really helps uh we exist because of your generosity so um there's patreon.com slash speaklifeuk uh if you want to give to us uh via Patreon and uh if you want to go to the website the speaklife.org.uk slash give speaklife.org.uk slash give and uh every little helps. Thanks so much. So Paul, what is uh what is in the news? What's what's happening around the world?
SPEAKER_05Yeah well I guess the big thing well there's lots of things but the big thing today I suppose is is pretty much eyes on the US aren't they? Midterm elections and what's going to happen there. Yes. Um and I mean I was listening to the radio in the car this morning they were talking about it and saying they were saying well depending on what happens today will will give us a pretty clear idea of what's going to happen in two years' time. They were saying if Donald Trump, you know if they if the Republicans hold on um to their you know their kind of places and their positions today then two years time from now Donald Trump is likely to still be president um and this was the moment we're gonna find out what the the American public really think about what Donald Trump has been doing.
SPEAKER_08Yes. I think that's I think that's really interesting that people people are like we have no idea which way things are going. But if we just know this thing, then in two years we'll be certain to the future for the next two years. And we know and of course of course everyone's fingers have been burnt by like what happens in elections in America you know people did not really predict Trump and and they they laughed at him when he was just just to get the Republican nomination. People nobody thought he'd get the Republican nomination.
SPEAKER_05Some people were just la I think like Ben Shapiro and a whole bunch of other guys on election night when Trump they were they were in hysterics that he even won. They could they just they couldn't believe it. It was a joke on the radio this morning they were saying that Trump didn't even have a proper transition team because he didn't think he was going to win. Right. And he fired the the people he did have on his team he fired overnight and started again the next day.
SPEAKER_08Donald Trump did that really how how I'm Trumpian or you know the example on this side of the the Atlantic is is Nigel Farage on on the night of of the Brexit vote on June the twenty third and he was being interviewed and said no we've got no hope. And of course by the morning you know um Brexit had won and then Theresa May calls a snap election and she thinks it's in the bag and no. No not at all. No so we just don't know. But it's just so interesting that because like none of us know these things, we we get all these pundits saying ah yeah there's going to be a blue wave of Democrat support or there's going to be a resurgence of of the right or something and um and once we get this little result then we'll know what the future is and and I I just think people people both on the left and on the right speak in the language of history and historic movement as though they know which way the tide is turning. You know or we you know and so we we we talk in terms of so and so is on the wrong side of history. Or history will not be kind to that movement or whatever. Yeah. As though you know like how do you know which way is history going? You know it's like you live in the present, I live in the present and unless you live in the future, I don't know it seems like everybody everybody's in the present but everybody's claiming to know which way history kind of is headed in. And I wonder whether that's a kind of there are two beliefs going on in that and one of them is profoundly Christian and one of them is profoundly anti-Christian. And I think the profoundly Christian side of that is this idea that the the moral arc of the universe is bending towards justice.
SPEAKER_05That things are ultimately moving towards a a better end.
SPEAKER_08Yeah history history has an end point and the end point is justice and and so Martin Luther King Jr he he made that quote famous somebody else says it I forget who who said it but he said the the um the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice. And Barack Obama loved that line so much he had it woven into a rug in the Oval Office and this is so you know all the decisions that are being made in the free world are sort of founded on this belief that history is headed towards some kind of happy happily ever after where justice reigns. Now Martin Luther King Jr made it obvious that a belief in that kind of view of history was totally grounded in the scriptures. It's totally grounded in Christian faith.
SPEAKER_05You've got no grounds for that if if you if you if you take a Dawkins type position, there's no guarantee that things are really going to get better, whatever better really means. Right. Everything could go to hell in a handbasket or we will go down the pan. Right. Yeah well effectively that is the atheist outlook isn't it that totally it doesn't matter if you get towards justice because then the sun will explode and that's it. So fine.
SPEAKER_08Yeah yeah is that just I don't know whether it's just or not but you know you know everyone gets that's the thing with the atheistic worldview is every everyone gets exactly the same. You know so Hitler gets the same judgment as all the people he's killed right is that justice like he gets death all in the Holocaust get death they all get the same. It's it's the most outrageously unjust system the world's ever seen. So actually yeah atheism does not give you that sort of moral arc of the universe bending towards history. So when somebody says something like you know Christians are on the wrong side of history there's something deeply ironic about that because they are using a profoundly Christian view of history framework of stuff in order to say that Christians are behind the times. So there's something profoundly Christian about saying the moral arc of the universe bends towards history and we know which way it's going. That's the profoundly Christian bit. But the profoundly unchristian bit is to assume that you are on the right you are in the you're on the right side of history. And you know, right? And you can judge everybody else. And actually the beautiful thing about the Christian vision is that yes Christ will ensure that that we end with justice but he will come to judge the living and the dead not me not you not my political opponent not not my political party it's Christ and and so he saves you from the judgmentalism of of thinking you know which way history's going and you you know who's right and who's wrong.
SPEAKER_05But we see it all the time don't we even if people aren't thinking in those categories of you know justice and things there's just that chronological snobbery of you know of course we are progressing and so it back then you know that was the old you know old times, olden days but now we know better. Right. You know um times have moved on and the the kind of assumption behind that is that having moved on we've moved on to something better. Yeah. Um but there's absolutely nothing to suggest that that is the case. Yeah. You know you've got no real r r way to ground that and say here is why this is better.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You could say it's technologically better. Yeah sure yeah not denying that. But I guess particularly in the moral sphere. Right. Why is that a moral claim yeah yeah there's all these claims aren't there that now we've moved past this or that or the other and you say well hang on a second how do you know that was any worse really why do you think that you are the ones who've got it right.
SPEAKER_08It's profoundly arrogant really isn't it right of the of us to be you know saying we're on the right side of history and and and it also it it depends on like looking at planet Earth right now and assuming that this this state of affairs is going to be carried on into the future. So if you if you see the benighted Christian view of marriage or something and and that's that's a sort of a a hangover from medieval times or the 1950s or something like that and and now we know looking at history that that view of marriage must be in the past. You're actually you're actually making that judgment based just on the present and surely you can think of things that are happening in the present that you you know think are morally questionable. So by by what standard are you saying that this is better than that and all those sorts of things and but but we love to be judgmental. Like it's just so much fun. Yes it is to describe somebody else as as an idiot and it made me think of um Matthew chapter thirteen so here here is Jesus speaking a parable and he and he says Matthew thirteen verse twenty four The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field but while his men were sleeping his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also and the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, Master did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds? And he said to them, An enemy has done this So the servant said to him Then do you want us to go and gather them? But he said no, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn So it's this this idea that yeah there's there's good and bad going on in the world and there are people who are saying, you know, I think I can identify which are the wheats and w which which is wheat and which is you know weeds and I I reckon I can kind of perfect society you know and and in a church environment it's like I I think I can can perfect the church and purify the church because I can identify which of the wheats and which is wheat and which is weed. And uh and Jesus is like yeah not sure you can and not sure that you can do that purification act without actu you know absolutely uprooting the wheat as well. So leave it to judgment day. Leave it to the judge who really knows. And I I just think that's a really important word in the culture um you you know you you might just identify the other party as totally weed and your party party is totally wheat um that would that would be stunning wouldn't it be it would be quite a remarkable thing if your guys happened to get it entirely right and their guys happen to get it entirely wrong. But instead it's a it's a real belief that yes the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice but you are not the judge and let Christ be the judge of the living and the dead and then maybe we don't have to play judge so much. Wouldn't that be nice? If we if we weren't so judgmental in all things. So who knows? The thing is who knows about these midterms and who knows whether they will predict uh what will happen in twenty twenty who's to say who's to say but there's one thing we do know is that Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father and from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead and and also you know we know whatever happens God is God is sovereign over these things.
SPEAKER_05And I always remember a friend of mine like um uh in the States say having a conversation at the at the gas pump, the petr petrol station um where you know this guy was totally bummed out that Obama was president, you know and uh and he just said to him he said yeah well I'm just glad that I don't I don't put my trust in the president ultimately you know that ultimately I believe there's a there's a there's a higher higher power at work here. And the thing is you know even regardless oh I've just made my chair go down. Regardless of what you think of um Trump, you um I mean we see time and time again throughout the Bible don't we that there are all these bad rulers. Yeah. Um but yet God's hand is at work through them in many ways. Um and I suppose yeah in some way I'm making a value judgment there on Donald Trump for what I'm saying. I think uh you know just he doesn't conduct himself in a great way.
SPEAKER_08But we know God is sovereign so yeah and we have to pray for our rulers even though the rulers during New Testament times were people like Nero. So you know you think we've got it bad. Um so if you want to check out a little sermon on the creed that I gave uh recently at Emmanuel Church in Brighton we've put a little link in the Facebook uh post and we'll put a link uh in the YouTube and on the podcast as well where I kind of make some of these points about uh Christ being the judge of the living and the dead and what good news uh that is uh what else is there in the news Paul?
SPEAKER_05Yeah so one of the other things that's uh it's kind of quite high up on the news at the moment uh at least over here in the UK we've just had fireworks night bonfire night yesterday I guess if you're maybe if you're not from the UK you might not have a clue where that is but it's where we remember the gunpowder plot of uh I don't know what year it was actually but um back a while back a long time ago well before I was born where Guy Fawkes uh was tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament um so we remember that by blowing lots of stuff up basically and starting fires um but the thing that's been in the news is is that some people have there's been footage that's emerged of uh some people who had a bonfire where they burnt an effigy of Grenfell Tower um which I guess many of us will remember the Grenfell Tower instant um big fire in a in a block of flats um in London uh was it last year? Last summer was it? Last summer yeah um and the reaction there's got to that and I mean and we've seen the video we watched the video this morning horrifying and it is it is appalling it's absolutely appalling um you know they're kind of laughing burning this this mock tower with mock figures with mock figures that are hanging out the window then saying jump out the window you know and stuff like that stay in your flat you know which was one of the things that had come out of the investigation wasn't it that people had been told to stay put. Yeah um and obviously had then you know died in the in the process. And the laughter around it was just chilling wasn't it too just just purely no seemingly no um no one had any reservations about right should we be doing this. Yeah. And I mean i it it's all over like I say it was all over the news Teresa May Prime Minister said you know she's described this as utterly unacceptable and then you know we've had you know from the BBC's news website Morris Morris Samuels part of the Justice for Grenfell campaign group told the BBC the video is a disgusting attack on vulnerable people. She says we have no doubt there are actually decent generous people across Britain this actual act doesn't represent ordinary British people.
SPEAKER_08So yeah so yeah we watched it ourselves and just thought yeah horrific wrong sinful um but then how the story has developed is that they've turned themselves into the police station.
SPEAKER_05Yeah so it's public order offence wasn't it so they've been arrested for public order offence.
SPEAKER_08So is this a crime is is the next question.
SPEAKER_05And I Because we can all as a we can all look at it and say this is in horrifically bad taste. Yeah it's reprehensible. It's wrong. It is wrong it is morally repugnant is what they've done a crime.
SPEAKER_08Yeah and I think that's just a really important question that both Christians and and those outside the church I think we all need to wrap our heads around this like first of all I think Christians need to realize that sins are sins and therefore they're very serious but they're not the same thing as crimes. And sometimes Christians hear you say that and they say oh so you're saying it's not very important. No no no no sins are absolutely the most important thing but do we criminalize every sin? Obviously not you know adultery is a sin. Adultery is not a crime does that mean that adultery is not very serious? No it's incredibly serious. It's a total homewrecker it's a society killer it is reprehensible, it is morally repugnant but is it a crime? Well no we've we've actually decided as a society that sins and crimes are different things. And I j I I worry in the church that um we we tend to conflate sins and crimes um and that's just that's just not healthy. When somebody does something wrong t towards me, my response should not be to call the cops the police yeah so I think within within the church I think we need to stop leaning on the state to enforce morality but then outside the church I I like even if someone's not a Christian, I want to make a case to you you don't want the police to be enforcing your morality. There's got to be something else that's not the state that says what's right and wrong and there's got to be pressure there's got to be social pressure that's not the same thing as the long arm of the law that actually has a has a measure of constraint and control over people's activity. Otherwise like otherwise the state just enforces their own morality and the state becomes um religionized right the the state suddenly becomes this yeah overreaches massively with this and we're gonna push down some other avenues of this kind of idea is that I mean looking at what a public order offence is I mean it talks about kind of insulting and threatening behaviours and things like that.
SPEAKER_05Within the scope of it there's there's it's quite loose. Right. I mean when you talk about insulting I mean the thing is how do you define whether s what someone said was insulting yeah I might someone would say I've you know what they said to you was very insulting and you might say well I didn't think so. And and I find that quite worrying you know and we well more than quite worrying that um we're thinking we can now arrest people because someone maybe felt insulted by something. Right. So I look at the the Grandfeld Tower thing and I think it's terrible it's a terrible taste and it's and it's and it is reprehensible is and it makes you wonder about a society that produces even if you were going to do that why would you film it and put it on your Facebook like in in some way be proud of it. Yeah um but have they have they actually is it a crime? No I I don't like it I find it repugnant but it's not a crime. And yeah I think that's what worries me about it in particular.
SPEAKER_08I've actually penned a poem for this for this very this very day. Yeah this very morning so uh ladies and gentlemen without further ado let me let me um give you sins are not crimes. Sins are not crimes crimes are not sins sins and crimes are different things. Sins are not crimes crimes are not sins we do violence to both when we treat them as twins.
SPEAKER_05There we go Glenn Scrivener Glen Scriven 2018 people get it here first.
SPEAKER_08Yeah yeah I'm gonna write a little children's book about this now.
SPEAKER_05In the style of Dr Zeus but I I think you know they and so there may be people hearing this and saying well hang on like people shouldn't be allowed to say these things. And and I think we need to flip it round and see how actually if as Christi I mean obviously it's not just Christians getting outraged by what's happened, but if as Christians we start to conflate these two things it can easily flip round on us. Right. And this is why I think we need to be aware of um why stuff like this is actually quite unhelpful. So some people might have seen recently on the news um I don't know if it did go on the news it probably it didn't hit the news did it it was just kind of I yeah I read it online. Yeah just online somewhere um that the there's been two incidents where the Scottish police have put up some signs around Scotland. We got a picture of the first sign that went up I think that's one yeah says dear if you can't see this because you're on the you're listening in it says Dear bigots you can't spread your religious hate here end of sermon yours Scotland and then it says hate crime report it to stop it and there's a whole thing by the Scottish police there. And then there was another a tweet which wasn't from the Scottish Police it was from the Yorkshire police South Yorkshire Police and so they've tweeted this out in addition to reporting hate crime please report non-crime hate incidents which can include things like offensive or insulting comments online, in person or in writing hate will not be tolerated in South Yorkshire report it put a stop to it now this has caused a little bit of a stir amongst some people or the first one first of all the Scottish one Dear bigots dear bigots yeah I mean your religious hatred.
SPEAKER_08Wouldn't it cause a stir would that really cause a stir?
SPEAKER_05Dear bigots you can't spread your religious hatred here now clearly I mean the the the lack of self-awareness of what you're doing in putting up a poster like that is incredible. That is the police force the police force calling people saying that the people who are bigots are probably religious because you know don't spread your religious hatred around and you know that's that's quite worrying. Yeah. And then on the second one don't report you know or please report everything Even if it's not a crime, just report incidents.
SPEAKER_08The police are not interested in just crimes. Just crimes, but incidents as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And and and it talks again about that insulting offensive behaviours, kind of things like that. Um and again the problem is how do you well again we're conflating sins and crimes, but how do you define what is the motivations and the the Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I mean th there's part of a I think we've got a a picture of David Robertson who um Scott he's a Scottish minister, is that right? He'd he'd replied to the Scottish police. He'd written to them about their their completely ridiculous poster.
SPEAKER_08He did a brilliant thing. He just said, I'm offended by this.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, he's yeah, this offends me. Yeah. And um he he basically accused them of hate speech in what they were doing. Yeah. If there is such a thing, surely saying dear bigots would fall under it, but anyway. Yeah, and um and interestingly, they replied it with he had a reply back from the superintendent David Pettigrew, who's the Equality and Diversity Unit Specialist Crime Division kind of head there, superintendent. And in the letter, David Pettigrew said a hate incident is any incident which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated wholly or partly by malice and ill will towards a social group, but which does not constitute a criminal offence. And then it said the police Scotland hate crimes standing operating procedure directs that ordinarily the perception of the victim or any other person is the defining factor.
SPEAKER_08Oh the perception of the victim.
SPEAKER_05And this is mind-boggling. If you if you can't get your head round why this is so dangerous, all it takes is I mean, and so so this is I mean completely hypocritical, first of all. So the brilliant part later on is that they say the motivation of the Scottish Government campaign is not based on malice or ill will towards any social group. Therefore the circumstances will not be recorded as hate related. And you're like, hang on a second, but David Robertson is saying he perceived it as insulting hate, which you've just said is the defining factor. But they also say they qualified it by saying, but of course officers will have to use their own judgment and discretion. You're like, well then it's just a free-for-all. Yeah. Right, oh yes, well, this one is racially motivated, you know, this is uh motivated by ill will and malice in some cases, but in other cases and that would just and that would become a complete free-for-all. Right. Now, of course, the issue for us as Christians is that all it takes is for someone to say, Well, I felt that when they said this, yeah, you know, whatever it is, I felt offended by it. Yeah. And suddenly we're saying, Well, now you can you you can you're you're gonna be reported for a hate crime.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Um it's interesting, it sounds really subjective to say it's the perception of the victim that is all important, right? But you haven't yet established that they are a victim yet. How do you know they're a victim? Right?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So it's it's it's objectively calling them a victim and then saying that, oh no, but they are the victim of this, and therefore their perception counts. Well well, who defines who the victim is? Let me not be the victim. Maybe I'm the victim because I'm just ex exercising my free speech, and why can't I say what I want to say? And if you're gonna shut me down using these hate speech rules, why aren't I the victim? But they've already decided who the victim is, and it couldn't be them.
SPEAKER_05And and is it not worrying? Not only is this letter received back from the police force uh completely hypocritical, they completely contradict their own standard of how you do this, but the person who gets to judge whether they what their motivation was is them. Yeah. So there's not like a standard, you know, you need someone else outside the police almost to come in and say the police are doing this wrong. Here, they're just a law unto themselves, there. Yeah, you know, they're they're we're above the law, we make the law, you know. Yeah, I am the law. I am the law. You know. Um and that is very, very worrying. And and so so for me as a Christian, when we talk about uh should people be allowed to say X, Y, and Z, I mean uh everyone Christians will have different views. I'm pretty much of the opinion that I'm I'm quite happy for people to say literally anything. Right. I'm not when I say happy, I might not agree with it, it might be repulsive. It might be a sin. It might be yeah. But um I'm I think you know, if we if we if we want uh like in this country uh freedom of speech, yeah, um I think we need to just let people say stuff. If they say stuff which is insulting to Christians um and God and Jesus, I think you ride that out because I know equally every if we try and crack down on that, it can be turned round on us. Yeah. Um you know, and at the end of the day, people say stuff and and again it's like we're gonna see in a moment. What's the worst that's gonna happen? You're gonna get offended. Yeah. Nothing happens. It's fine.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. Ian McCarthy has just said, uh, this is what a senior police officer re raised recently. It's easier to criminalize crude behaviour than to chase after violent criminals, I suppose. And you know, a lot of people made that point about South Yorkshire police who who've you know been um Yeah, who haven't always done their job and and now they want to get into the incident business. They haven't quite proved that they're quite good at the crime business for a time. Um Yeah, Amy Robinson says it makes them sound like a head teacher who feels they've lost control. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um But I think I mean I I think we should be worried about this. I don't think it's I don't think it's overblown to start saying that when people start policing your language and your thoughts, which is effectively what I mean because they're saying here we can tell by what you said, I can now define and determine what your thoughts are. Right. And therefore we can you know convict you of some kind of crime. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So I mean, so one thing to say to Christians is look, you know, we we you might get really offended by Jerry Springer the opera, which was horrifically blasphemous at times. Horrifically blasphemous, and you can definitely complain that your license fee is being used to produce that, because like like there's a lot of Christians and they're very offended by that. So why should we pay for all that? So that's fine. But don't call the cops, man. You know, don't call the police. Um we need we need to have a thick skin and a soft heart, I think. Um and instead we have thin skins and hard hearts, and that's our that's our problem. But um should we should we have a look at this uh this clip? Um who's who's the comedian?
SPEAKER_05So he's the Australian guy, Steve Hughes. I came across him a few years ago. Um I think this is him on Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, talking about being offended.
SPEAKER_02And then we have political correctness, which is which is this joy that is the other side of health and safety, which is health and safety, which is a small oppression of our physical movement, so we can't do anything without permission from the state. And political correctness is the oppression of our intellectual movement, so no one says anything anymore in case somebody else gets offended. What happens if you say that and someone gets offended? Well, they can be offended. What's wrong with being offended? When did sticks and stones may break my bone and stop being relevant? Isn't that what you teach children? For God's sake. That's what you teach toddlers. He calls me an idiot. Don't worry about him, he's a good thing. I'm offended, and I have right. I went to the comedy show and and the comedian said something about the Lord, and I was offended. And when I woke up in the morning, I had to represent the money. You an idiot. How do you make a law about offending people? How do you make an offence to offend people? Being offended is subjective. That has everything to do with you as an individual or a collective or a group or a society or a community, your moral conditioning, your religious beliefs, what offends me may not offend you, and you want to make laws about this? I'm offended when I say boy band, for God's sake. I'm an offence, I'm offended corporate shills posing as musicians to further a modelling career, and frankly, I'm disgusted.
SPEAKER_01They're on the telly this time. Five them, that's it. Yep, white suits dancing like girls, that's them. Five minutes, I'll be at the front traumatised. Bye.
SPEAKER_08Yes.
SPEAKER_05So I mean that that might not be the the best way to win over doubters to our position, but uh No, but I think I mean the thing, I mean obviously we we have a bit of fun with it, but um the thing I think he he does make some good points he just pulls out in the middle about um how do you make a law about being offended? Something that's entirely subjective. Right. Um I mean it's just open to a huge amount of abuse, isn't it? Right. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_08It's yeah, it's thought crime. And uh yeah, let's not get into thought crime. Um Brilliant, let's uh let's talk about what's what's new with us at Speak Life. Um a couple of really encouraging things. So I was up at the Midlands Gospel Partnership uh their um uh their men's convention, Midlands uh men's convention uh on Saturday, and then spoke at uh St. Ebb's uh church in Oxford um on uh Saturday and Sunday. Uh but while I was there, just just two really um encouraging messages. Uh one was an email um uh from a woman that we met at the Mind Body Soul Show. Uh so uh if you've listened into the live cast before, you'll know that we went up to Alexandra Palace a couple of weekends ago, and we were just reaching out to the New Age community, and there was one woman there who was just uh uh thrilled to meet us. Um she's sort of when she was six years old, she she sort of her grandparents took her along to church and she's always loved Jesus. She's always thought of Jesus as her brother and alongside her. But um she's had she's had a a a rough life and a rough time recently. Um but just able to pray with her and preach the gospel to her, and um, she's now wanting Jesus, loving Jesus, and wanting to find a church uh in the in the town where she is, and so we've just been in contact with one another, trying to get her hooked into a church there, and uh so that was just really thrilling uh to hear about um that one one piece of fruit, one one of many pieces of fruit from um from that outreach. Uh and then another great uh encouragement on Saturday night, uh a guy tweeted uh from the States, and um he he said this uh do we have it on the screen? It said, uh Last week I became a Christian and ended my 15-year addiction to alcohol, pot, and nyquil. God made this happen, but he worked through Jordan Peterson. There it is. Ding we we have to mention him every week, but there it is. Uh he said, My new goal in life, uh quote, my prayer is that when I die, all hell will rejoice that I'm out of the fight. A quote from C.S. Lewis. And then he followed up with a tweet um to me saying, I should mention that I found you through Peterson. So you helped to get me to the end zone after Peterson got me to the ten-yard line. I think I understand that.
SPEAKER_09I think I understand that.
SPEAKER_08Please keep doing what you're doing. Um so that was just hugely encouraging because um I mean we've we've only really YouTube about Peterson in the last six weeks or so. So we put we put out some videos on Peterson versus Sam Harris about six weeks ago and and uh been getting into conversation with with different people. And clearly, um yeah, God has used it to you know as a tiny part of one person's story. So that's really thrilling.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and it you know, I think I I've definitely wanted to guard myself against um you know the the the danger of Peterson the the saviour.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_05Uh but I was it did we talk about this on the live cast before we we were talking about how the you know the here's these guys, you know, the disciples saying someone else is casting out demons in your name, but it's not one of us and Mark chapter nine the unauthorized exorcist. Yeah, yeah, and it's and I don't know if we talked about it on the live cast, but there is maybe that sense that Peterson is he's pointing people in some way. Yeah. He's driving out demons from people, you know. Yeah, the gateway drug.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Here's a guy who's ended his fifteen year addiction to alcohol pot and nyquil, you know. What do you call that? I don't know. You know and one Christian response to that would be stop Peterson! Because he's not doing it in our name. Maybe yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Maybe a healthier response is But it you know, he's a fascinating figure in what he's doing. And I mean I know you've been chatting with Paul Van der Clay, um, I think we're gonna get a clip from that in a moment. But um you know, he he's and and I've been struck, you know, I I went for a period where I was watching a lot of Peterson and then kind of stopped, and then I watched a bit more the other day after your Van der Clay thing. I just thought this guy is so he's just on the money so often, isn't he? I mean we know he obviously he's he he's not he's not a signed up um Jesus follower or anything like that. But I mean he just p pokes holes straight through so many things that are often thrown up at him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08And he's doing that job of getting people to the ten-yard line, you know, in in that footballing, you know, in that gridiron analogy. Um and I've I'm encountering people all the time who are getting into the end zone um because Peterson's got them a l a long way towards church, so every single place I've gone if there's people who've who are kind of thinking, I still don't really know who Jordan Peterson is, what do you think if if we were to say like it's worth checking him out, what do you think is the the place to start?
SPEAKER_05Because I mean there's a lot of stuff which is hours and hours long, which is it's not easy to just pick up and do two hours worth of biblical lecture, but uh I mean an entertaining introduction is the is the Kathy P um Kathy Newman interview.
SPEAKER_08That's ha that's a half hour intro. But if if you can give two hours to it, the Doctor Oz um interview is him on sort of primetime TV in the States, and actually Doctor Oz does not do a hit job on him at all. He just allows Peterson to kind of explain himself to a wider audience. That that interview, that two hours really gets you to the heart of Peterson.
SPEAKER_05I'm not sure you've seen that when I chatted.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, it's good it's a good first stop because uh he is the sort of person you you need like 15 videos to kind of figure out like what on earth is going on. It's it's like watching the wire, you know. Like I remember like the first four episodes having absolutely no idea, you're like furiously googling like who is this person and what's the plot and what's going on, and Peterson's a little bit like that, it's all um so but yeah, uh find search search for the Dr. Oz um OZ um interview with with Jordan Peterson. Um or you could even have a look at um this video that I do with Paul Van der Clay. So Paul Van der Clay is uh he's known as the uh the pastor to the intellectual dark web. What a cool, what a cool phrase. Commander of the armies of the north. Where's your parish? Dark web. The dark web. Acton. You know, like and um I mean interesting so so like I say, like every every place I go, including Oxford this weekend, um just there were there were people there who weren't yet Christians, but Jordan Peterson, they were massive Jordan Peterson fans, and he was making them interested in church. Right? Everywhere I go. Literally everywhere I go. Even we in the church can't do this. No, this is No. No. And this is what we talk about in in my my chat with Paul Vanderclay. So do do do look it up um afterwards, Paul Vanderclay, Glenn Scrivner, if you search that in YouTube, you'll you'll find our our talk.
SPEAKER_05I think it's in the links on the com uh comment section already. Great this video.
SPEAKER_08Great. And and one of the one of the kind of the paradigms that I use to think about Peterson is um it's a bit like the story of the prodigal son. You've got the younger boy and the older boy, and the younger boy goes off to the far country. And in Peterson language, that's he's turned his back on order and he's gone into chaos, right? And there he is in the pig sty. And what does he do? He wants an antidote to chaos, and in the pig style he decides, I'll go back to my father and I'll become a hired servant. So actually, all he wants to do is balance chaos versus order, which I think is Peterson's problem.
SPEAKER_05I think that that's That's where Peterson wants to finish.
SPEAKER_08He wants to finish. Let's just balance the chaos versus let's just have an antidote to chaos and let's just be a little bit more older brother, right? I I think that is kind of Peterson's sort of solution. But wonderfully, people like Junto and and others that I've met, um, they're kind of being caught by the father, right? The father himself, because the father is not the same thing as the older brother or the younger brother, and he's not halfway between the two. He's doing this grace thing. So I think Peterson's got order and chaos, which is the law, but the gospel is what the father does. This arms wide open embrace that brings him home. So we we talk in in those sorts of terms, and then uh let's just catch the last few minutes of uh of our interview as we talk about younger brothers, elder brothers, and the difference that the father makes.
SPEAKER_00And I hear those stories all the time, and and actually begin to find the church to be helpful. Helpful in terms of they're coming to the church and saying, I don't really know a lot about the Bible. And so for the church to figure out how to talk about the Bible in a helpful way for them, and have the church come alongside them and they say, you know, I've got these, you know, I've got these addiction challenges, I've got these behavioral challenges, and what I really need is someone who cares and supports and for the church to be able to come around and be helpful. Because you know, Billy Graham, you know, was wise enough, you know, he had his moment in the you know, in the 50s and 60s, but he brought the church with him and tried to at least mobilize the church. And I find churches often hostile to Peterson on the right and on the left. And my prayer is that the church will stop and say, Hey, people are coming to you and saying, I want to learn about the Bible. What's so hard about this? Maybe shut up a little bit when they talk about the Bible and figure out well, what might be helpful for them? What are the questions they are actually asking? And have a conversation with them. Don't be the don't be the know-it-all answer man older brother. When the older brother comes back into the fold, don't sit outside in the field and say, So that's that's my prayer. That's my prayer in all this.
SPEAKER_08Right. Because how does the father respond to the returning boy? He runs to him, throws his arms around him, throws the feast, and he doesn't let him ask to be the slave. That's right. I love that. When he when he practices the speech, that's right. He says he practices the speech and he says, Let me be one of your hired men. That's right. But then when he comes to give the speech, the father cuts him off. You know, I don't want a slave, I want a son, I want a boy. And then what Peterson then I think helps you with is I I often imagine the next day, you know, the the next day the prodigal son kind of waking up and just sort of patting down to the kitchen, and and there's dad making some eggs, and and uh you know, the the younger son says, you know, dad, about last night, I'm about this whole thing, I'm really sorry, and the father just says, Shut up and eat your eggs. And then you know, at some point the the son says, you know, you know, what do you want to do today, dad? And dad says, I don't know, what do you want to do today? And off you go. And and then it's the embodied logos. It's the it's what you want to do now as this freed son. Right.
SPEAKER_00Um well then actually I think the father will say, Well, son, you know, I um sold a third of my property when you took it to the far-off country. So let's go out to the field and the um, you know, they're calving today. So let's get out there with the workmen.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_00And let's do the let's let's do our work in this totally earth.
SPEAKER_08Totally. And I yeah, and I I totally think that like you know, one of one of the things I think Jordan Peterson fears about Protestants is that we we won't have a work ethic, which I don't know, you know, historically we we seem to have managed a work ethic, but it's it's it's like I think his fear is that the gospel kind of removes that's right.
SPEAKER_00Um guilt.
SPEAKER_08I mean you're a psychologist, you say? But it's like, you know, my my thing is that you know like the the shift from the old testament to the new testament is not that you have you know one day in seven is rest, and then in the new testament is seven days in seven rest. It's the shift of in the old testament, you work towards that day of rest. In the new testament, you begin with rest. Like the first day of the week, day off. Enjoy the Lord. Now let's walk out into the world. And those 12 rules for life might prove really helpful as you you know from that place of rest, out you go. But um, there we go. Yeah, yeah. So it was a great I really enjoyed my my chat with Paul Van der Clay. Um, you can get the whole thing, and we're gonna have another chat next week. And it might even be a chat with both Paul Van der Clay and Adam Friended from Think Club. Great um, who's another big Peterson fan who's an atheist. And um, yeah, we might we might get a bit of a three-way chat on Peterson and objective morality and Jesus and some really helpful stuff in there though.
SPEAKER_05Just I mean it's just you know, you hear you've people on the left and the right, Christians kind of going, Oh, a bit wary of Peterson. And then Paul's just saying, Look, these guys are coming to you and saying, I'm kind of interested in the Bible. Right. And he's saying, Well, shut up and get out of the way then, you know. Just as Christians, shut up and get out of the way, let them come and get on with it. Right. Simple as that, really, isn't it?
SPEAKER_08Simple as that. At at Oxford, so I was at a church on Saturday night, and there was a table, and there was um there must have been eight people on the table, and five of them were all massive Peterson fans, two of them weren't yet Christians, three of them were. And the entire night I didn't I didn't mention anything about Jordan Peters, I just sat back and listened. And they just they just were just consumed by by this, and they were in church. Certainly the um the the couple that weren't Christians yet, they they were there because of Peterson because they wanted to hear some wisdom, you know, some biblical wisdom. And you know, if we don't use this moment, we're fools, total fools. Yeah, pounce on it, pounce on it. Brilliant. So uh stay tuned for more. No no doubt we'll mention Jordan Peterson again at some point. Um not least because he's on Question Time on Thursday nights. Yeah. So if you're not in uh the UK, Question Time is when uh yeah, um it goes around different towns in the country and people fire questions at politicians and journalists. And uh they've invited Jordan Peterson on, so should be worth a look, I reckon. I might actually stay up and watch this time. Um so there we go. Jordan Peterson on question time. That that might that might be next week's episode. We shall see. Brilliant. Well that'll do us. I think we've gone over our hour, but um that's alright. We don't mind doing overtime, do we, Paul?
SPEAKER_05No, not at all. And you know, we've got a good you know, had lots of people watching in and commenting and stuff, so thanks for joining us. It's been good to have you with us. Fantastic. Encouraging us along, and hopefully we've said some helpful things as well. So one or two, maybe.
SPEAKER_08Maybe the the wheat and the weeds have grown together. Which is which. Weeds, weeds, he's not weeds. Brilliant. Uh thank you so much, and uh see you next time. Take care, bye.