The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Welcome to the Speak Life Podcast. It's Glenn Scrivener broadcasting here from Sydney. And I am here in Australia just seeing family and doing a few mission things. And perhaps we'll catch up in future episodes with what I'm doing over here, a few different speaking engagements in Canberra and Sydney, reaching out through some great churches here. But I've taken the opportunity today to have a great chat with John Dixon, who's been a hero of mine for gosh, 25 years really. I guess I first came across John Dixon with some of his books for teenagers, especially Sneaking Suspicion kind of got under my skin as a teenager and was significant in me becoming a Christian, really, or at least giving uh the Christian faith a great hearing. And uh so he's a terrific author and has continued to pen uh multiple books. Uh things like A Skeptic's Guide to Jesus, a great one for inquirers if you want to give uh to people these days. Um but uh yeah, check out some of uh some of his books online. Uh he is a tremendous author. Uh he's also a filmmaker, and uh we get into a conversation about his new film, For the Love of God, uh, how the church is both better and worse than you ever imagined. Uh so going back through history and seeing some of the things that the Christian Church has done, and it's a very warts and all look, but uh in engaging with how the church has been worse for the world, um uh they get a wonderful platform for being able to talk about uh the way that the Christian gospel has absolutely shaped the world as we know it. And uh as I'm often saying uh when considering the Bible, you know, the Bible is so huge that uh even your problems with the Bible have been given to you by the Bible. The immense impact on Christianity that Christianity's had on this world means that uh if you are a Westerner or if you've even been just impacted by the West, even the problems you have with Christianity have been given to you by Christianity. And I think this resource, for the love of God, is uh really brilliant at communicating that. So we had a tremendous uh conversation uh which uh was so helpful for me in thinking about the fact that witness is martyrdom. I don't know if you know that from the Greek, that uh actually the the Greek word for uh witness is uh maturo, and uh to witness is literally to martyr, and to martyr is to be a witness to Jesus Christ. And therefore, shouldn't there be a posture of witness to the world that looks like losing well? That looks like somehow losing victoriously. And I guess that is that is the the history of the church at its best. The history of the church at its best has been this cruciform, this cross-shaped posture to the world, uh, in which uh though we are moaned down, yet the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church, uh as they used to say in the early church. And uh and so John Dixon beautifully kind of takes us through that history of the church, uh, but also in our conversation, we get to thinking about the way in which our modern witness today, whether that's online or face to face, can take that same cruciform posture, how we can lose well in debate in the public square, and how that actually ends up being a win for the gospel. So uh really loads to chew on, and uh something that whether you're involved in uh speaking uh publicly about Jesus or if you're simply a a Christian uh seeking to live out your witness in the workplace or in your neighborhood or wherever, I think uh there's plenty in our conversation for you to be chewing on uh for weeks. Uh I I think I I will be chewing on this for months and years, actually. Uh, how we have this cruciform witness, this losing well witness, this uh witness of martyrdom in a culture that will crucify you. But we believe in the God of resurrection. So uh I hope you really enjoy uh our conversation uh between myself and John. And in uh perhaps in a future week, I'm I'm just trying to nail down the details whether we can um uh broadcast another interview I'm having over here uh in Australia with a woman who has an incredible story uh of uh really martyrdom, uh near martyrdom, and uh and how that's been a tremendous witness for the gospel here in Australia. But just nailing down whether we can do that. But do stay tuned for that. And without further ado, I give you Dr. John Dixon. I am here with the wonderful Dr. John Dixon, who is a pastor, theologian, historian, filmmaker, and all around good egg. Uh good to have you with us on the Speak Life Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Great to be with you, Glenn.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks so much for having me over. We've just been chatting uh in Roseville, kind of a suburb of North Sydney, and you are the rector of St. No.
SPEAKER_00St. Andrews, Roseville Anglican Church, uh here in the local suburbs.
SPEAKER_02Okay, tell tell me about Roseville as a as a context.
SPEAKER_00Middle class, highly educated, leafy, um uh godless. Uh um a great place uh to raise our kids, um, but a lot of work to do for the gospel.
SPEAKER_02And you've been rector here for about eight years? Eight years.
SPEAKER_00Before that I was um a curate uh for three or four years. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And would you put the label on yourself, evangelist? Like like how do you I how do I self-identify?
SPEAKER_00It's a really difficult one. Um because it depends who I'm talking to, what context. I mean, y I'll admit to being an evangelist to you and now your guests, uh because you know that means someone passionate for articulating the heart and soul of the Christian message to those who don't yet believe. Right. Right. Uh but in my public work, would I say I'm an evangelist? I wouldn't, because the word doesn't mean what I think it means in the ear of an ABC journalist. Right. They think um a pushy proselytizing person. Yes. And and I and that's not what I do. Yes. So um I default to just saying I'm a public Christian or a public advocate for the Christian faith.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00They seem to me to be sort of more neutral terms. I'm not trying to hide anything. I just don't want to use words in a way that it doesn't make any sense to those I'm talking to. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So on tele, you're not an evangelist, and you're certainly not a tele evangelist. I'm not. Yes. Okay. Good. And you have many opportunities to speak publicly for Christ in various ways. Um I I first got to know you through your books, so they were very helpful for me as a as a teenager reading sneaking suspicion and books like this, which I've come to realise are now exceptionally controversial texts that should be should be banned from the public space. Well, that was very cool.
SPEAKER_00Um I mean, apart from lifting the sails, uh do you want to just explain what uh what went on in 2019 with the book of Sneaking Suspicion has been used in schools um as a as a text in Christian studies and so on, um, for twenty years. Yeah. And then two years ago, uh because of a big push by a very anti-Christian group that's trying to get all religion out of schools, uh, they produced a report which they sent to the government, and the government freaked out because of the report, because of what was said. And their knee jerk reaction was to ban the book. And so a memo went out to all headmasters of schools in New South Wales banning the book. It was quite a controversy, you know. It hit the newspapers. I had uh TV uh uh news come to my house and interview me about it. Um and uh my wife sneakily placed uh uh Solsenipson's book in the just behind me when I was on national TV as a sort of you know, what other books have been banned in history? Um that was a lovely in joke on her part. Um you know the the interesting thing was I I was I had really good advice when it happened um to not overreact. To lose well. Yes. And so Against Nature, I did. I I um and and I but I basically just said, Oh well, I'm sure the government's thinking first of children, you know, they don't want children to be harmed. Um, you know, it's things like you know, the opening chapter on sex has quotations from lyrics that are a bit risque, and on the other hand, um advocated uh not having sex before marriage um and was heterosexual in it in its assumption. Um and so these were the dangerous things, apparently. So I so in my interviews and so on, I just said, look, I'm confident the government is you know motivated the right way, and maybe they'll be able to review it and um and it'll be overturned. So that's how I played it.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And actually I was I was glad because within three weeks the ban was lifted and um yet the book sales went up because it was a banned book.
SPEAKER_02Of course, it would have made me read the book much quicker if I'd known it was so dangerous. Um But yet losing well seems to be uh a a kind of theme uh uh about your your posture, your approach in witness. And and I think that very much comes to the fore uh in this latest film that you've uh produced with the Centre P for Public Christianity uh called For the Love of God, uh how Christian history is How the Church is better and worse than you ever imagined. Yes. Uh a film it was an exceptional documentary I got to see last night and really enjoyed it, and and very much that posture seems to be um losing well. I don't know, it certainly seems to be sorry, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I'm so struck by the passages in the New Testament, just to speak theologically for a second, that um urge general Christians to be public, and they consistently um urge a we call it a posture, uh an attitude of of gentleness. So um, you know, the Apostle Peter will say, return insult with blessing. Wow. So you've got to think, what does that mean in filmmaking? Or Peter says, always be prepared to give an answer, but with gentleness and respect. So what does that mean? Paul says that we are to let our speech always be with grace so that we may know may know how to answer everyone. So it seems the consistent theme is not get out there, be pushy, be strong and strident, but hold your convictions with um a gentleness, a blessing, and um so so that does inform what we do. And uh when you're dealing with a question about has Christianity done more harm than good, which is basically the question we're we're trying to uh approach, um any honest account will have to confront the fact that there are many bodies buried in Christian history. Right. People have uh in Christ's name done despicable things. Right. So to avoid that and only focus on the good, it seems inappropriate. To say, oh, but they weren't real Christians, because if they were real Christians, they wouldn't have done those things seems a bit too much the no Scotsman, no true Scotsman argument. And in any case, if if you read the letters home from Crusaders back to Europe, the sort of eyewitness testimony we have, it's pretty hard to argue against the proposition that they really loved God and Christ. Right. Right. And weirdly thought they were doing a good thing in slaughtering men, women and children in Jerusalem. So we've got to own that, right? And and then only um as a secondary thing, the practical outcome of owning that is you have permission to say yet there are these amazing things Christians have given the world that are unique. Yes. Um Christians behaving violently, that's not that's not unique. Romans were behaving violently, Greeks er that that's base human culture, right? And it's disappointing that Christians have sunk to that, but we have to own that. But what isn't you you know, what what is unique to um the Christian uh activity in the world is establishing charities and um hospitals for all and the ethic of humility. Uh these things didn't come from Greece and Rome. Right. They were unique gifts of the church, but you can't really talk about any of that unless you've owned the terrible stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Which seems you know, so Christopher Hitchens um on the other side would say, Well, Christianity's only religion's only been a force for evil, and in order to make his case, he he would have to put you know Stalin in the religious category, and he has to put Martin Luther King in the non-religious category. Of course. And you're like, yeah, yeah. And it's such it's such an obvious uh tactic on his part. Yes. And then there are Christians who are mirror images of him, yeah, who would do the no true Scotsman, and of course, you know, no no true Christian has ever done evil, you know, in Christ's name. Um but yeah, but your approach very much seems to to mirror a a lot of the the the non-violent stuff you talk about. So quite early on in the documentary, you begin with the uh the the crusades, um and and you do talk about this on the other side of things, uh, a a this radical idea of turn the other cheek and love your enemies and and do good to those who persecute you and and and all that kind of stuff. Um and it seems to me that the the entire project is kind of an incarnation of that. That you you are actually taking it on the chin. Yes, right, and then turning the other cheek in order to bless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and kind of rising up again, and there is that gospel shape to things.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that is the gospel, right? The gospel is God loved his enemies, right? Entered into the world, right, and bore the judgment that should have been theirs in himself on the cross.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00That's the gospel, and the gospel ethic that flows from that is love of those who are opposed to you. Um and so the church looks more like the gospel it believes when it's doing that. Yeah. That is absolutely at the core of the film. And you know, we as you know, we we describe it as a beautiful tune that Jesus has given the world. Yes. And sometimes Christians have sung wonderfully in tune with that and establish hospitals and charities and bless those who curse them and so on. And sometimes they've been so out of tune it's just the cacophony is terrible. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And what's interesting about that analogy is you maintain that it's a beautiful tune and you almost appeal to your average secular westerner to say if you're judging the discordant notes, it's kind of because you assume the tune, don't you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Um we make the case, which is easier than many might imagine, that uh the best secular values are just Christian values. Yeah. That they didn't come from Greece and Rome. They did not come from the Enlightenment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They came from this story of God Almighty emptying himself on a cross.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's where the notion of human rights came from. Right. And we don't just make that up. We've got s Samuel Moyne from Harvard uh University, one of the leading experts on the history of human rights, not a Christian, saying exactly that. Yeah, sure, Jesus gave us this idea, and you Christians haven't lived by it. And so um and and and so the average secularist will recognise in the tune of Jesus what seems common sense to them. Right. Because of 2,000 years of Christianization of culture that's been owned by the secularists, and fantastic. I'm glad that that that's the ethic that they choose to be attracted toward, or or just innately are attracted toward. But we hope to articulate that that is rooted in something, yeah. An actual way of looking at the universe that secularism has now cut itself off from. Right. Like the intellectual framework for that ethic of love, that that view that everyone, regardless of capacity, is equal. I mean, we don't stop to think about how dumb that is. Right. You could not convince a pagan Greek that everyone is of equal value. They would just keep saying to you, Oh, hang on. So this person who's stronger than that person, you're saying they're equal. And we go, yeah, yeah, yeah, really equal. So this person who's smarter than that person, you're saying they're equal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're really equal. Yeah, yeah. In what like what does the word equal mean anymore, they'll say? Right, right. How is it how how is it possible that in the distribution of skills and powers that nature has given the world, how how on earth can you say that that is equal to does not nature teach you that some are born to be living tools?
SPEAKER_02Which is Plato and Aristotle.
SPEAKER_00And of course, Nietzsche um spotted this with great clarity in his genealogy of morals and and said Christianity is stupid. Right. It's the upending of the good values of the classical world that said if you're born smarter, you're better than someone who's born dumb. If you're more creative, you're better than someone who is not creative. Because your contribution will be much greater to s to society. So you are no longer engaging in true valuation, Nietzsche would say, if you're saying, Oh no, no, no, we're all equal, we're all equal. Well, the the reality is the secularist still loves the idea that we're all equal regardless of capacity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I don't think they can argue it anymore. Right. I really don't. I mean, so why I love having that conversation with um with secularists around So let's just stop. You l you and I both love the idea that the poor, uneducated person with no contribution to society is exactly equal to the queen. Right? Articulate that for me. Yeah. Because I can do it in one sentence. Yeah. You you try it. And and it's a really interesting conversation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And people like Stephen Pinker try to do it. Um and obviously you think they fail.
SPEAKER_00Well, they do fail. Because they fail at the um rational intellectual framework level. Um all all they end up saying is things like, um things go better when you treat people like that. Right. That's not what I'm asking. I'm saying, why are they like that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Is it true that the poor, useless person is equal to the you know, the rich, smart person? Like, is it true? Yeah, and all you're saying to me is if you if we just pretend it's true, we get on better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's not actually the intellectual framework I'm asking for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And how do you guide against tribalism? Because I can un I can imagine a situation in which my tribe would very much benefit from oppressing a small minority. Of course.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But if you think of everyone is made in the image of God, it changes everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There it is on page one. It's astonishing. It is everything that no one else can found is just assumed on page one. Yeah, brilliant. And I so I love that I love that illustration. Jesus has given us a beautiful tune to sing, we have sung out of key. Um, and you return to that many times during the film. And you you address um different different areas where Christianity is better and worse. What are some of the different areas that you look at in human history?
SPEAKER_00Well, there's violence, there's the crusades, right? They've um that's worse than you'd ever imagine. I mean, um, you know, think of Christians bursting into Jerusalem on July 15, 1099, and thinking it was a good thing to do, to slaughter the women and children who were huddled up there outside the Alaksa Mosque, throw them over the walls, you know, cut them in pieces. How that's worse than you could possibly imagine a Christian doing. On the other hand, um think of uh the Christians uh like um Saint Ignatius in the early second century, who's on his way to be executed in Rome, he knows full well what's gonna happen to him, and he's writing to the churches along along the way in the in the several weeks' journey to Rome about how to respond to your oppressors, and he says, be gentle in response to their um uh their violence. That's losing well, right? And bless them when they insult you. And he's just repeating the Sermon on the Mount.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and Christians did do that. People people like Ignatius did that. Um the early Christians weren't persecuted all the time, but when they were, they were always instructed to maintain love for those who were trying to kill them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And as so yeah, that's that's losing well, because it's martyrdom, and martyrdom is witness. And I think we that that kind of in my head kind of comes to full circle in what is our posture toward towards the world, what is our witness to the world towards the world? It should look like martyrdom. Yeah. It should look like losing well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because i if the gospel you're trying to proclaim is God emptying himself for the sake of enemies, um, what else would the right posture be than at least being willing to lose wealth toward your enemies. Yeah. Um I'm not saying we go out looking for opportunities to be martyrs.
SPEAKER_01Right, no, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um but but there should be a posture that says, I'm perfectly willing to lose wealth. Yeah. Um because that that's what my gospel's about.
SPEAKER_02And that's different to so when the subject of the crusades comes up, uh there would be one Christian apologist who would come back and basically say, Well, the Muslims started it, and they kill people too, so you know Yes, yes, they do do that.
SPEAKER_00Um and look, there's no question that a that a a decent reading of the history of the Crusades makes clear it was a defensive politics.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't start in 1099.
SPEAKER_00Um they are they are it starts with, you know. 610. Yeah. Hundreds of years of Islamic aggression and expansion. Acknowledged. Um But but Muslims aren't the ones following the God who said, Love your enemies.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Um they they don't follow the God who emptied himself, became a human, and died on a cross. That's a blasphemy to Islam. Yeah. But it's the centre of Christianity. So it doesn't make no sense to me to say But they did bad stuff too. Um and and in any case, even if the crusade, the first crusade, was a just war, and I think a good argument can be made that it was, because um the the Byzantine Emperor um pleaded the Europeans to Christians to come and help before Islam uh took over, and uh they the those those European crusaders really thought that they were gonna protect their brothers and sisters from aggression. Even if you can make that case, and I think you can, um how they conducted themselves made it a completely unjust war.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00They slaughtered Jewish villages along the Rhine as practice as they made their way to the Holy Land. And when they got there, they killed women and children, which goes against every just war principle. Right. So that that that line of apologetic argument, which is becoming really um popular, and um people like Rodney Stark have you know written books that that that have bolstered a kind a new sort of Christian assertiveness about the crusades? Right. I think it's mistaken. Yeah. We love history wars.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And that that and that's not the posture. That's not the posture of of cruciformity. So what what happens when your film goes through issues like humility, issues like charity, issues like non-violence, um, education, that kind of stuff, as as great blessings that the church has brought. And you've you've shown how Christians have not sung the tune, but the tune is beautiful. Um doesn't that stir up in the non-Christian mind, wonderful, okay, great, but what about the battle now? And the battle that's coming to their minds is sexuality, human sexuality. Um how do you bring the principles of for better and for worse to that debate today?
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean you said it. Uh Christians are better and worse on that topic too. Um it didn't seem appropriate to us to deal with a topic like that in the documentary, given it it's it was a more historical documentary. Right. But I think it's one of the elephants in the room. Um, how how the church has conducted itself. And it seems to me that the same logic applies. Christians have done terrible things in this area. Um they uh allowed their sexual ethic, their biblical ethic, to lead to unbiblical um ideas and behaviors and and speech toward the gay community. So I think the first thing that has to be acknowledged and and freely and and generously um appropriately acknowledged is the mistakes that that we've made. And so there's a sense in which sorry, which is, you know, maybe words are cheap, but where that's where we have to begin.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um that we're profoundly sorry. Which doesn't mean we're sorry for our view that we think is the good. Right. Um, but we're sorry for allowing the good uh to be what we think is the good to be used as a as a bludgeon um against people who who don't who disagree with us. And Jesus was the master of having conviction and compassion at the same time. He could flex both muscles. And in the history of the church, it seems that we've only been good at doing one of them. Yeah. There are periods of the church history where it's all conviction, all theology, all morality, no compassion. And there are other periods in church history, and particularly today, where it's all compassion. Come as you are, etc. etc., and no conviction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think both um I mean the latter may be more pleasant, uh, well you know, for for contemporary culture, but both are kind of heresies, both are departures from Christ.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Who could thunder in public about judgment coming on the wrongdoing of the world and then sit down at the dinner table with the sinner of the town.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It um it seems to me that that's what Christians need to recover: an ability to profoundly care for those they profoundly disagree with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we need to beg the gay community to the degree that it's possible, that they would be able to return the compliment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That they'd be able to hold their convictions, thinking we're idiots, but with a kind of compassionate, you know, willingness to have a ha hand of friendship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It seems that's the only way we're gonna be able to get along. Yeah. Because I don't think classical forms of Christianity will cave in on this topic in the long term. I I I they are just they're gonna remain committed to a view of the sexual good that is about monogamy and heterosexual monogamy. Uh I don't think that's going anywhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um So we need to work out how to get along.
SPEAKER_02And have you been able to get to the stage of begging their indulgence and they say, okay, tell me how it's better. Tell me how the Christian Christian story about sexuality is better. Have you been able to get to that stage? And if so, what what do you say at that stage?
SPEAKER_00Um rarely has it been uh possible to get there. Um but the few opportunities that that we've had, I I I guess I I try and point people back to why did ancient Romans um view marriage as only between a man and a woman? And yet they could not be accused of being homophobic because they were perfectly happy uh with sexual activity and even intimacy. Um not not just lust, but actual intimacy between people of the same sex. They were fine with that, but they never countenanced same-sex marriage. So what's going on there? And um I I like to sort of lead people through this sense that actually what Romans thought they glimpsed, and Greeks the same, what they thought they glimpsed was a unique kind of human bond. The only kind of human bond that intrinsically has the capability to produce offspring and care for that offspring as the two people responsible for that offspring. There's no other way to produce offspring and have the that offspring raised by the two people responsible for its life. There's no other way to do that, to achieve that, than for it to be a man and a woman who procreate and stay together for the for the sake of that child growing up, knowing the two people responsible for its life. And an ancient Romans spotted that logic and insisted, therefore, that um the best sex, one could say, is sex in the context of creating and nurturing human beings, nurturing them by uh with the two people responsible for their very existence. Um and so I wonder if that's where the conversation can go in terms of the good. Is it a good thing for a human being to be raised by the two people r responsible for its life and breath and DNA and personality and so on? I hope that most people can see there's a logic to that. It's not just arbitrary, yeah. There is only one kind of bond. Yeah. Even in principle, yeah, yeah. That can produce offspring and raise that offspring. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So a natural law argument, and you'd be you'd be happy, you know, making that a lot of things.
SPEAKER_00I am happy with a natural law argument. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um because I think I think we see we have to explain, we have to find an explanation for, everyone has to find an explanation for why um uh classical marriage is classical. Why Greeks and Romans and the Chinese um and Indigenous Australians all have exactly the same view of marriage. That it's between one man and one woman. I mean even polygamy. No, but even polygamy is one man, one woman. Because um the man who has three wives um is in three marriages. Mm-hmm. He's not in one marriage to three women. Mm-hmm. Right. And the women aren't married to each other. Right. So the logic is actually the same in polygamy.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00One man has one marriage to one woman.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00The other woman he he has, it's it's one marriage.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00It's a separate marriage. Now I actually think, you know, polygamy is problematic for all sorts of reasons. I think it's unfair to women, I think it's usually an elitist patriarchal phenomenon. And and in the in the in the course of history, even polygamous cultures, it was really only the elites that could have multiple women. Um the norm but either way, even polygamous marriage is defined as one man, one woman. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. That's interesting. Um, how do we get here? We got here from for better for worse. Uh yeah, the the history of the church is better and worse than you would imagine, and the current debate over sexuality, we can take that same posture. We can we can say, sorry for the worse, there is a better here. Hang in with us. And I've seen you online, and perhaps we can we can move to sort of online engagement as well, because um obviously referendum in in Australia last year on on same-sex marriage, and that was an incredible culture war. And I was very glad to not be in the country. I was I was in England for Brexit, that was bad enough. I wasn't in Australia for for this, and and incredibly uh toxic stuff was being thrown on both sides. And and you seem to have, you know, I I've called you a an ireneic controversialist. Um you you seem to have this presence online that was able to host debates on social media, and the sky didn't cave in. Um how?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I agree with you, it was a terrible debate. Um I was embarrassed by the no campaign and refused to be involved with the no campaign. Um and the yes campaign had its own mistakes, uh, you know, and that they were vitriolic and and brutal toward anyone who was from the no campaign. So it was it was just horrible. What was missing, um, even in the Christian community, what was missing was a a posture that said, look, we do believe the classical marriage is the good, but you know, we're not trying to impose it. And we just want to make the case, and and and if we lose, we'll we'll be fine. Because you know, Christianity um can only hold out what it thinks is blessing, and if people think it's bad, then we'll just continue to bless you. We'll continue to you know just offer the good and lose well. We're back to that theme again. Um that wasn't heard. Um what what the Australian public heard was this is our view, and you better believe it. And that the terrible consequences if you don't, you know, stay, hold the line on marriage. I think uh it seemed a terrible approach. It really should be about we believe this is good. If you think we're idiots for doing so, thank you very much. Right. Uh we're fine with that. It's a Christian specialty from the beginning, looking like idiots, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um so in terms of online debate, yeah. I was I was trying to um do that. Not just on that issue, on lots, on lots of issues. Um there's lots of controversy on my Facebook page. Um how does it get there, John? It magically appears. It magically appears. Uh yeah, so I've I've got gentleness and respect. I've got Peter whispering in my ear, gentleness and respect, gentleness and respect. Yeah. All the time when I'm I'm engaging. And I don't always pull it off beautifully, um, but uh but I'm absolutely committed to it. Um and I think if you are activating people's tribal brains in the way you speak, you're not gonna persuade. Right. But if you can bypass that tribalistic, whatever it is, that part of the brain that goes, ah, now that person's from that tribe, I'm from this tribe, I need to destroy them, zero-sum game arguments, yes, then that there's no point. That does that that serves no one well.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um but conceding the pretty good arguments that others have is important. Being able to articulate the arguments other people have is really important.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And um as sweetly and rationally as you can, wear people down with grace and good sense. That's that's the model. Um and I also in the online space, I'm always thinking about the people reading over my shoulder online who aren't engaged in the debate.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes it becomes pretty clear the person I'm arguing with online is never gonna change their mind. Right. No matter how you know how much I try to be gentle and respectful and wear them down with grace and good sense, it ain't gonna work, right? They're they've activated their tribal uh mental structure. But I know there are hundreds of people watching us go to and fro.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm arguing for them. Yes. More than I am the person I'm actually arguing with. Yes. And that actually makes it easy to remain calm.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Really easy. Because I'm I'm I'm sure, well, partly because people contact me privately, I I'm sure people are are sort of going, huh, why does that person have to be so pushy and belligerent? And yet the other argument can you know, is sort of flexible and willing to concede and still stands.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Stands amidst all the hits. Maybe there's something more to that argument than I than I thought. There's a cheerful, quiet confidence. Yeah. What's he standing on? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And have you seen that go well?
SPEAKER_00I mean, you you say people message you privately and they do, and I've had people say that they've changed their mind on this issue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, as a result of of the debates. Yeah. Um and on lots of issues. Uh but a lot of people, um, it seems, um, are a bit um nervous about interacting online because they don't want to get jumped on. Yes. But they're watching.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And I would urge any Christian who's engaged in um social media debates on Twitter or Facebook or the online comments section of The Guardian or any you know, anywhere like that, don't think so much about the person you you're arguing with. They may or may not ever come near persuasion. Think of the hundreds of people reading over your shoulders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Trying to make sense of this all.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Because they're in a far more neutral position. Because then they're not engaging in the battle lines, they haven't sh shown their colours, they haven't named their tribe. They're silent.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And they're just watching, they're just trying to work out where the best arguments are. Right. And I and I do think it's more compelling when you see a a good rational argument ru um described in cheerful, gentle tone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. A great word. A great word to to finish on. Um if people want to catch up with uh for the love of god, where should they go? Because there's actually a course with this, isn't that right?
SPEAKER_00Several. Uh so betterandworse.film. Yep. Great. Uh you go there and um you can rent and buy the episodes, but you actually on one of the pages there, you can view the whole thing in five-minute clips. Wow. Okay. So you can search by topic and and look look at it, but you've got to do it in five-minute clips, right? So it's not quite watching the whole thing. And there are courses as well. So there are um a full school curriculum designed around the four episodes, and there's one that we really hope churches will pick up on uh for visitors who who would come and in four sessions they get to walk their way through main parts of the documentary and read passages from the gospels and Paul's letters so that they can compare the history with the beautiful tune of the gospel and hopefully by the end of the course have a clarity about what the gospel is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, it's a brilliant resource, and I hope churches access it. I hope there are screenings, maybe even in England. Have they have you had screenings yet in England?
SPEAKER_00Not yet. Um there's a strong possibility we'll begin in November. Okay, brilliant.
SPEAKER_02So better and worse.film. Fantastic. Dr. John Dixon, thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Glenn.