The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_00Hello, uh, welcome to the live cast. Hopefully you can uh hear me and I've unmuted the microphone and everything's working. Um hopefully you're all doing well, having a good time. Um thanks for joining us again this week, back here, still in Crover in the back garden, um enjoying the nice weather. Um, and hopefully you've been enjoying all the interviews from previous weeks. Um if you've not seen them, you can still check them out on the Facebook page. Um if you go to the live cast playlist, um you should be able to find them there, or you can find them on YouTube. So I think there's about uh six or so already up, so do go and check them out. Um but we've got another one today. Actually, this is probably our last interview of the summer. Um and actually today with me I've got Mr. Steve Reese. I say Mr. That's wrong, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Well, I suppose Mr's good, I'm reverend that you're Mr. Reverend, Reverend Rees. Mr.
SPEAKER_00Very, very Reverend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, just Steve, Steve Rees, Steve Reese.
SPEAKER_00So, Steve, great to have you here with us. Um, Steve, what I guess there will be people watching who do know you, but there'll be a lot of people probably who never heard of you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So uh tell us who you are. Uh well I'm Steve Reese and I am a Christian, and uh I'm a pastor of a church here in Crowborough, I'm the pastor of uh All Saints Crobra in St. Richard's, and uh just been doing that for the last two and a half years. So before that I was a vicar in North London, Potter's Bar, before that I was a curate, and before that I was a teacher. And I'm a father as well, and a husband. So I'm married to Jenny, and we've got five kids, and uh uh ranging from the age twenty-two down to the age of seven, uh one boy and four girls. Wow. And a dog and six chickens and rats because of the chickens. And rats, yes, you've been hearing about the rats. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Great, yeah. So as you said, I mean you're the you're the vicar at All Saints Crow. So actually, Steve um had the dubious honour of being my boss for a little while. So if you watch, you get basically uh the only person I need to get Andrew Korns on, and then I'll have like the full sweep of my bosses, previous bosses. Um so yeah, so yeah, you came, was it 18 months I think before I left? That's right. And once you'd arrived, I thought I can't do this anymore. Well I can understand that.
SPEAKER_01Well, most people did leave. And uh so it's a lot of people walk out. But I I didn't take it too personally.
SPEAKER_00No, it was great fun, actually, it was lots of fun, actually. As I do miss it, it was it was a real laugh. So um tell us then, um, so as you said, you are a Christian, which is good as a vicar. That seems a good qualification to start with. Yeah, tell us a bit about your background then, like where are you from and kind of where did you grow up and and and faith in that?
SPEAKER_01So uh just like Paul, I grew up in Cardiff. It gives a great place to Cardiff is a great place to be. I grew up in Cardiff and uh I was brought up in a Christian family, my mum and dad, uh my two brothers, and we were brought up in a in a denomination uh called the Brethren. And so I guess people might think of exclusive brethren, where you um which is a particular sort of sect and cult, really, I think. But also we're part of the Open Brethren, and um uh which was uh just a local church uh where there's no pastor, it was just elders who led the church, and the elders worked during the week and they preached on Sundays. And we're brought up in a local brethren church, and uh uh that that was where I sort of came to faith.
SPEAKER_00What are the what's the what's kind of the distinctives of the Brethren Church? Like because I mean uh because I don't really know much about the brethren, but when I hear it, I guess I think um like a qu it sounds like quite a strict Yeah, strict is a good word, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It was it was strict but very real. So uh the part of the brethren I grew up in was the open brethren and um uh uh and I guess the distinctive is that actually there's that that there's no paid staff and actually you've got it's elder led, the elders from the church family. Um Sunday mornings would be a communion service uh every week, they called it the breaking of bread, and that would be a free-for-all, really. There'd be like spirit-led uh you know, prayers, readings, hymns, and uh it was quite exciting as a child sitting there because you weren't quite sure he was gonna preach. Two people would get up at the same time, and it was the brother with the loudest voice who got to the front who got to preach. Nice like a preach-off. Well, it was a preach-off, uh, but actually that was quite exciting as a child. We we liked that. But I mean it was uh and then in the evening we'd have a gospel service. So every evening we'd have the gospel preaching Sunday night.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's funny I was gonna say that because I went to I saw Mike Pilovarci at Coventry Cathedral once. Yes. He did a youth workers kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and he said he said something about I don't know if he'd grown up in a brethren church as well, or whether I'm not sure what his background is, but he'd been to a brethren place and he said every Sunday night they would always do a gospel It was a gospel talk, it was purely like evangelistic this is the gospel. Yes. Um that's what it was like.
SPEAKER_01So if Sunday morning was for believers, Sunday night was for non-believers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that they preached the gospel every Sunday night. But the great thing about it was that actually there it was a wonderful family. We had loads of young people and kids, we had an amazing Sunday school, we had an amazing outreach to the local area, we used to go around in minibuses picking up kids to teach them the Bible. Uh and uh I heard the gospel and the and uh you know I was taught the gospel from my parents but also from the church. So it was very Christ-centred, very bubble-based. The youth work was fantastic when I was there. It's a particularly strong time, and actually it's part of a whole network of churches across Cardiff, Brethren churches, and we used to every Saturday night the young people get together every Saturday night for an call or rally. Yeah, whoa! And uh we'd get together for Bible teaching on a Saturday night. So every arsen in town was like having revelry and having going to be around. Down Caroline Street. Down the wreck. Uh we'd be gathering together for Bible teaching as young people. So it was an amazing bubble, and actually, I came to faith and it was a joy, and there was lots, it was fun, uh, but it was quite strict. So there'd be those within it who thought that possibly there weren't other believers outside the brethren. Yeah, that wasn't my phones, that wasn't my phones. Uh, and also, you know, Sunday morning, you know, women would be hatted and gagged, and uh there's no musical instrument. So someone would pitch up a song. If you were gonna sing a song, there's brother Bill on the back row who'd give us a note and we'd all start together. So it was you know, it was it was my normal, but actually I looked back on it and it's probably a lot of people might have come into that service and thought this is unusual. But it was real, it was it was Christ focused, it was Bible-based, and that's where I came to faith in Jesus Christ. So it was a wonderful place to grow up. It's very thankful for it.
SPEAKER_00My dad was an elder there for many years, one of the leaders, so it's a bit of a a segue out uh away from your story, but it's still to do with that though. So, because it sounds really great, yeah. In the sense but there I know like where in in our kind of circles there's like sometimes quite a big focus on like worship should be ordered. Yes. Like, so how does that is it was it just not ordered or was it?
SPEAKER_01Well it was ordered, it was ordered, but actually uh when when people felt moved by the spirit to pray at the same time, that was interesting. And uh so basically it would be the brother with the loudest voice, yeah, or and then someone would be quiet and they come back in later. But I remember as a boy growing up, it's quite a pressure to take part like that, so it's quite stressful. Right, okay. So dad used to say to me, Look, be exercise today. I think I've got to do I've got to say, I've got to pray, or I've got to share a reading, I've got to do something in the service, and it just felt like a huge stress thinking, if I get it bad, will somebody else do that? And what will I say, and how will it be? And um so but but it was orderly, it was orderly, and it was um reverent and uh and solemn, but real. Real, it was very real, yeah. Um, and lots of great godly people who love the Lord Jesus. And um interestingly enough, the whole brethren movement came out of Anglicanism. There's a guy called Darby who left the Anglican church as a vic and began uh a brethren church, and so I've kind of gone the other way. Jumped back in. Uh, but actually, yeah, it was it was a fantastic childhood, and we had lots of camps and weekends away, and it was just a lot of fun. So it was a it was a great place to be. I'm very thankful to God.
SPEAKER_00And was it the case that you know you because you say you know you kind of came to faith there? Was it was that kind of in your teenagers, or was it really just from as young as you remember?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think uh I I think probably it was about the age of nine I became a believer. So I remember um I just I remember a friend of mine, Tim Davis, uh saying I've given my life to Christ and I've become a Christian. I thought, oh wow, okay, that's that's maybe something I need to do. And actually I can't rely on my parents' faith and my own faith. And I remember as a boy of nine um feeling a sense of conviction, needing to give my life to Christ, uh repent of my sins and come to Jesus. And uh I said to my mum, I want to become a Christian, and she prayed with me, and I prayed the prayer and invited Christ into my life. Now, whether that was the moment when I was saved, I don't know because I grew up in the faith, but actually it's very important to me that I had that moment of decision of wanting to follow Christ. Then I was baptized when I was twelve by my dad and on a boiling hot day in a freezing cold pool to come to church, but it was great, it's my way of professing that I followed Jesus Christ. So I did come to a personal commitment about the age of nine, and actually I was bizarrely, uh I was not fearful of being a Christian, and I got a lot of stick for it at school, went to Clanish and High School and got a lot of bullying for being a believer. You went where did you go?
SPEAKER_00Where did you go? I went to Cardiff High. Cardiff High, that's the school. You were like your proper rivals down the road from you. Everyone said they have a massive drug problem, but I don't sure that's actually well that I think that's that's quite em epidemic of well-off people anyway, isn't it? But it's such a fucking school.
SPEAKER_01Clanition was a bit more rough already, in high school. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00My best man went to Linishia. So yeah, yeah. Probably in a different year to you then. Yeah. Yeah, okay, alright. Okay, I'm much older than you. I know I'm older than you. Um, so you yeah, you so you were you become a Christian and and how did that kind of shape your life then? I mean, obviously, you say at school people knew you were a Christian and stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but kind of coming out of school um or through your school years, I mean, were you kind of aware of like I am a Christian and I'm I'm different and I've different things like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was, I was, I was aware that I was different, and that wasn't always easy to be different, and actually whilst you get mocked for it, there was a respect, I think. Uh so I had quite a hard time at the first few years of secondary school, bullied quite a lot, uh, and given a hard time following Christ and professing Christ. I lost a lot of confidence, not in the gospel, but in myself because of that. But actually, I look back and you know that you know, God was very gracious, and uh we had a great little Christian union school, run by people in our church actually, and uh that was a real help. Um and Pete Destaff knew I was a Christian, so often you'd be put on the spot, gone Steve, you're the you're a Christian, what do you think about it? A resident Christian. Yeah, well I know I used to I used to hate that sometimes. In the RE class. I was RE history, and I said anything about PSE. Steve, what do you think? And I was thinking, oh, don't ask me again. But actually, but actually I was the guy who'd give an opinion quite strongly and I wasn't afraid to stand up, but I didn't find it very easy. Um but the Lord kept me and I had a wonderful Christian family who prayed for me and taught me Christ and uh really supported me. I think for me, going to university is quite key. So I went to extra university and um What were you doing? What were you doing? I was studying English and drama and education. Great. Spent three, four years dancing around doing drama. It's a really hard degree. So that was great. I did that, which is amazing, it's a great course actually, I loved it. But um I remember going to university and I was put in a house uh uh because they had the drama department next door to the P department, and I was in a house with a bunch of P lads, who were a great bunch of lads, but they were proper lads. Proper lads, yeah, yeah. And I just thought and and as my dad dropped me off, he said to me, Steve, nail your colour to the mast. And so I did. And um and and there were times when I just wanted to be like everybody else and just blend in, yeah. But I knew that my experience with Christ was so real that I couldn't so I felt the pressure to be like everybody else and just join with everything. But actually I knew that Jesus was real and I couldn't turn my back on that and I wanted to live for Christ. So God gave me that grace and strength. But it wasn't easy, it's it's hard to be the open act at times, and also the drama world is quite a kind of liberal immoral world, really. And there were times when I uh you know I was involved in various plays and I refused to say certain things, and people got across to me and they said, Why are you saying that? Well, because I'm a Christian, I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna batter feat, I'm not gonna do that. And that wasn't easy to do that, but God gives you grace, doesn't he? Um but actually university was key, so I thought actually here I am, away from mum and dad, away from the family home. I could go either way, I could actually stop following Christ. But actually, you know, he was so real I could never turn my back on him, and he and he never let go of me. And the temptation was there at times just to say it's just too much effort. Yeah, I just embed everybody else. But actually, I knew that Lotto is the best way, but it wasn't easy.
SPEAKER_00Um and was it whilst you were at uni was that where you met Jenny?
SPEAKER_01Well, yes later. Yeah, I did well I met Jenny at university, she was doing a PGCE. Right. And so she arrived in my last year at university. I did four years, she came in my last year, and I'd spotted her and I discovered I discovered where her her Bible study group was and I joined it. Right. Yeah with with with all good intentions. Oh, because I loved I just loved to study the Bible. I do love study Bible, but actually I thought, well, if she's in that little group, I might go and join that group. So I joined her group, I was quite unashamed really, and got to know her. And um I think she saw me as a friend for a long time, and uh then suddenly we kind of got together in the last week of university before we left.
SPEAKER_00It's the classic time, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It is going so uh We're gonna go our separate ways, so So how about you know I kinda like you and I think you like me, but uh so yeah, we got together. So yeah, amazing. I knew a brother before that. He was at university with me, David, and then Jenny rocked up at CU and spotted her, and I thought, oh, you're really nice. So I got to know her, and then we got together last week of term, which was a joy.
SPEAKER_00And so did you go I mean obviously you were together, but did you go your separate ways? So where did you go?
SPEAKER_01I went to teach in Cardiff.
SPEAKER_00Right, so that's when you knew me.
SPEAKER_01And a really fantastic school uh and uh in Flan Romney primary school. I went to teach there. Jenny went to teach at a really popular school in Bath.
SPEAKER_00Oh right, well, that's worlds apart.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, she taught at Moncton Coombe, which was a fantastic Christian boarding school, and she was living there, and I was living in in Cardiff Mum and Dad's getting back to my mum and dad's church. And uh I yeah, I taught in Flan Romney.
SPEAKER_00Was that secondary school? Primary primary, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's primary school teacher. And actually, yeah, it was. I'd always thought you were secondary school, don't know why. Yeah, yeah, no, I was just being Mr. Creative with the kids. I had to give out the colouring pencils and doing drama and teaching well.
SPEAKER_00I must have had a blast. It was great fun.
SPEAKER_01I'll never forget when I had a teacher called Mr. Pengili and he used to say to me, Oh, keep it tight, Steve, keep it tight. And when you go outside and you play football with the kids, watch your extremities, wear gloves. I used to wear gloves. But some of the kids were so naughty, they'd be running across the football pitch. I'd be chasing after them to keep them in the lesson. They were tricky kids.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh but it was great. I've always taught in tough schools. I taught there, and I taught in Islington when we got married, and another tough school. Jenny's always taught in nice schools. Right, yeah. But that's okay.
SPEAKER_00That's okay. And and I I mean I don't know I don't know what it's what's it like being a Christian as a teacher in a school setting? I mean, 'cause I mean I don't know, I because I I thought you'd done secondary school. Yeah. I I guess Well, I might be I might be wrong. My assumption is in secondary school, like, it's harder to be a Christian teacher. Yeah. There must be lots of other factors coming in. But I don't know. I mean, tell me, what was there anything?
SPEAKER_01Er I think is it this it was talking a long time ago now, Paul.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So like actually probably 26 years ago. Yeah, yeah. When I was teaching Clan Romney, um and uh then you see, even then it was normal to be Christian and have the Lord's Prayer and stuff in school. So the culture is a very important thing. Yeah, in course in primary, much more the customer. And it was, and actually, so that was kind of okay. Singing hymns and actually I was quite able to be open about my faith with the kids, and that was absolutely fine. Then I went when we got married, I went to teach at a Church of England school in central London, Ishington. Okay, so it was much more and it was overtly Christian, and actually a lot of the staff were young Christians, and it was amazing. It was a tough school again. The kids were fantastic, but many came from deprived backgrounds, and actually what sustained me during that time, because it was challenging, the behaviour was really challenging was the fact that I had other Christians to pray with. So it was overtly Christian, and the headmaster was a wonderful evangelical Christian guy, he's just free-for-all. So we just you know it was a great place to be. So it for me it wasn't tough, but I I reflect now on uh schools that are not church schools, and actually growing up in Cardiff, you know, even state schools you'd say the Lord's prayer is very Christian, but actually now it that's just not part of the landscape, it's totally changed unless it's a church school. Why would you do it? So there's a massive shift in the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And uh so it's a huge privilege to be a teacher.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I mean? Because you're shaping these kids' lives and actually be a Christian for them and talk about Christ with them, but also teach them and I did love it. Yeah. I did love it.
SPEAKER_00And you may be, you know, you just you just never know, do you may well be the only Christian they have contact with in their lives. Yeah, it's a great profession.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's great holidays as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But what made you give up the holidays then?
SPEAKER_01Well, I can't why did I do that? So, because how long did you teach for? I taught for uh probably about seven years. Okay. It's not a huge long time. And funny enough, I growing up, I'd always had a sense that I would do some sort of uh full-time Christian business. Obviously, every Christian is full-time, you're a Christian, whatever you do, aren't you? Whether you work in a secular environment or a Christian environment. But I'd always had a sense that maybe one day God would call me to get to work and be paid as a Christian worker. And when I grew up in the brethren, because actually you know you didn't have mystic, so I thought I'd be a schools worker, missionaries. So we had growing up, we had loads of missionaries in our church, and we had connections of missionaries, the mission was massacred growing up, the mission was for tea, and you know, how we always entertain the speakers, it's like half our life with these amazing people, so I thought maybe I'll be a missionary, or maybe I can do a full-time schoolswork. But it was only when I uh married Jenny and um and uh I began to think about what I should do that I thought about maybe I should go and do a bit of training. So Jenny and I were serving uh Crushes Cot Frosters with Jenny's home church. We were both teaching at the time, and uh we were involved with the youth work and stuff like that there. And the opportunity came up to take a year out and do Cornhill. Right. And uh the Lord opened the door for me to do that, and that was great. And I went into that, not really knowing what I was gonna do, but it was there was the encouragement of David Jackman who said, Look, Steve, you should really think about doing pastoral ministry, and I hadn't really thought about it till that point. My brother already sort of David Jackman, isn't he? He's great, I like his stuff. Yeah, he's fantastic stuff, he's such a great guy, and he was just so wise and pastoral, and really encouraged me to think about you know, Steve, you should think about this. Uh so that's where that whole idea of pastoral ministry came up, and that's how that the ball the pennies started sort of dropping and the ball began rolling. I went back to teach for a bit, then I went to work for two years at uh Enfield Free Church in Enfield, and I was so assistant pastor's assistant there, did lots of youth work and so is this this is before any kind of official Church of England Yeah, absolutely. And funny it's during that time I thought actually probably I think I probably feel that I should be working in the Church of England, because actually I never thought I would, not as a brethren boy, never. Sure.
SPEAKER_00You drop me the other side.
SPEAKER_01The other side, and uh so actually um and can you remember what it was that made you start to think like maybe I just think that I I think I look back at Jenny and I functioning in the church family at Cot Foster's and um kind of we were very much at home there in that environment, and kind of we thrived there. I had a great time at Mfield 3 and I learned masses there, but I think I think that sense of actually the laws calling us to be within the Church of England became clear. And they were very gracious about that. So I I I did I spent two years there, I learned masses from Johnny Prime, uh who's one of the FIC related to Optimus. Optimus Prime, yes, my best friend. But actually he I look he's an extraordinary pastor. Uh I learnt masses from him, so that I use shape of my ministry now. But we kind of we actually went from Enfill Free to Oak Hill as independents, and I began pushing the door uh to see whether ordination would happen. So it was that as a process really, you know, God laid on my heart that I just did all the time work. I wasn't about to be, then Cornhill and then Enfill Free and then Oak Hill, and then I got through selection. Yeah. And now I'm Anglican. But evangelical Christian first.
SPEAKER_00And there'll be people watching who uh or listening in at various points who, you know, they're not Anglican. And I mean I've been I I don't like calling myself Anglican. Yeah. But I mean I'm I've been in Anglican judges all my whole life anyway. But even I don't still really understand all the ins and outs. So so you what you train, don't you? You do was it three years?
SPEAKER_01So you do three. Well, if you're over thirty, you do two years. If you're under thirty, you do three, but because I've done my first year as an independent, we funded that by continue working, people supported us. So I did three years. Okay. But it was residential training at O'Kill we did.
SPEAKER_00And then you come and then you get you get a curacy, so which is how can we define a curacy for people that don't need to be able to do that?
SPEAKER_01Or maybe it's like the whole thing of like an apprenticeship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, kind of like apprentice vicar.
SPEAKER_01It's apprentice vicar, it is apprentice vicar. You're fired. You're fired, yeah, that didn't happen. So you're apprentice vicar, and so I did that for three years in the Cotswolds, which was amazing.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01So that was fantastic. I worked with a great guy called Steve Wookiee in Morton in Marsh and uh an amazing staff team, uh pastor worker, Claire Mason, and various people on the staff team. But I just yeah, it was a fabulous three years. I I was born around the cook. We were working in five churches. But the main church in this hand centre, Morton in Marsh St. David's, had just regrown under Steve's ministry and uh it had it had it been in the more liberal Catholic tradition, and then Steve came, was an evangelical, and just taught the gospel, and just the church began to grow, and it was just a fabulous place to be. I loved it. I love working with Steve, he was such a generous guy and so gracious to have him to thrive and encourage me. So I loved that. I loved it. I loved being in a small community, got to know everybody, but you know, one year had to put the Christmas lights on. Oh wow, yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_00It was the celebrity got this.
SPEAKER_01So, but actually, I I loved it. I it was a really happy time, but I learned masses about pastoral work, about how to run a church and evangelism. Steve was a great evangelist and he lay on fantastic these superb missions, uh, and uh that was really exciting. So I learned masses from him. So that was really good. And also during my time at O'Kill, I'd spent a couple of years placed a guy called Ashra Sida in Hampstead, and I learned masses from him about ministry. So, really, I was very privileged. I spent a lot of time with some amazing church leaders and some fantastic churches, and it's uh help shaped who I am and what I do now.
SPEAKER_00And so you you do what is it three years curacy and then you come out, and then do you go straight then? Is it Little Heath? Is that the little heath of it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yeah, so the normal route is you do your curacy and then you go and uh you go and get a vicar job or you go and get an associate vicar job. So I applied for a job in Little Heath, which is Potters Bar, which is just on the edge of North London, it's Hertfordshire, junction twenty four or twenty three, or near twenty five. Look at me, I don't know. Yeah, I know, I can but uh uh but anyway, I saw I said you struggled to get home, so I actually I jump yeah. I didn't jump in. It's a nice size in Potter's Bar, so I made it really clear. So Little Heath was on the edge of Potter's Bar, and I went there as a vicar and and uh yeah about 12 years ago to start at 12 years. Really? Yes. I was a young man, I was like 36. I was a nipper and naive and green behind the ears, and yeah. But that was a that was a that was a great time. There was lots of challenges. Uh because you know you're a new guy going in and you're not you've got a huge experience and you can lead a church. But God was very kind to us and put some amazing people in our church family that supported us. And by God's grace, we saw the church grow and people become Christians. So that was a hugely encouraging time. Uh with an effort for nine and a half years.
SPEAKER_00And then so it kind of as you as you're approaching that nine and a half years, I mean, I guess at that point you're kind of looking at you're looking well, I know you must have been looking because you ended up here. What's kind of the process in your head at that point? Because you know, there are some people who would you know, you know, I know what I'm doing, I have to stay where I am.
SPEAKER_01Like what kind of made you want to I think that um we always thought that we would be a little easy for ten years. Uh well we reckon staying longer after the launch of the door. We uh you know, it was it was very encouraging and um uh we had great people we loved and even it was very, very hard. Um I think we just felt that the church is in a place where the boy had a great hero who could look after a great judge for a strong PCC energy. Um I think we felt we were able to actually we were happy to stay. We went unhappy. We were happy to stay. And the Lord of Kids stayed there. Yeah, friends were there, you know, we had great friends there, great staff team. It was a really happy place to be for us, and um so yeah, we it it was no pressure on applying the place because it was to get out.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean that's a nice that was a nice yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so how did you come across how did you come across all scenes?
SPEAKER_01Well uh so uh so uh I I'd heard that uh Andrew's probably retiring the previous income. Yeah, and uh also knew about all Saints Crobra and Andrew Cords and his ministry there and the books. Uh but actually it was weird because three people approached us independently uh and said you should look at this job, you should look at this job, you should look at this job, you shouldn't have to be a little bit more. From my from my own library. But actually he weren't he but actually they were not linked. Yeah. So I think one friend uh met a member of the staff on a wife's conference and she texted us saying you should think about this job. Uh on a on a on a on a women's ministry conference, and then another friend of ours met somebody else at the church saying, look, this is coming out, you should look at it. Another guy said, Look, Steve, you should look at this. These three different texts came within a bucket two weeks of each other, so we felt maybe there was promptness to apply. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So And you did apply. And here we are! You made yeah, you made it through. I always remember, so there was a there was there was that process when when there were all these you know applications, didn't you? Well there was absolutely being on the staff, you're kind of privy to information, but also you're not allowed to know anything. I know it's because I always remember the day when you and Jenny came for your interview, and um they told us, they said to the staff um that you were coming and uh you were coming to the office first to then be shown where to go. And you know, uh you were coming at this particular time, and just by chance. You in the office. All the staff were in the office at that point, you know, just what what are the odds that we'd all be there? So you came in, you and Jenny came in, and you were like, oh hello, and we had a little chat, you know, Steve and Jenny, and you said, you know, I said where we come from, and you said, you know, little Heath or whoever it wasn't. I was like, oh great, yeah, yeah, we're in a little chat, and you went on. And then I literally just turned around to the computer and just like Steve Jenny Vicar, and I was like, There he is, that's who he is. I was like, we found them.
SPEAKER_01Because when Ross came to greet us, the obvious manager said, Oh, hello Colin, how are you? Colin, it's Colin! Which of my friends called Colin's applying for the job? I've got no friends called Colin, who is Colin, but that's apparently that was the nickname for the new vicar. She had a dream that the guy would be called Colin. Really? Yeah, so there you go. I'm sure he'd been called worse things. Well then when I went into Mark's office, my little interview with those of the guys, I saw my face on his screen, so obviously the worker got around when he got his bar and he was there looking at my face and trying to sustain the eyes. Oh dear, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yep, so you I mean you get the job, yeah and um so you've been uh All Saints now since kind of it was about February, wasn't it? 2016. Sixteen, was it? Yes, yes, yes, because you you arrived, you moved in the week I moved in here. That's right. That was the thing. Yes right. Um and you know, I guess, like I mean Andrew, you'd been there had been with us for kind of twenty-six years or something crazy like that. Um and you know, actually all saints is in a uh it was and is in a good place. I mean it's not a church that you know you look at and go, Oh my word, this needs loads of turning around, you know, it's not it was gospel centred and you know, big focus on Bible teaching and and stuff and um things like that. Um But tell us then about I mean your you coming into it 'cause you I don't know if you had ideas before you arrived, but I know you'd already done a sabbatical in your previous job and you'd looked at a particular angle of of church growth there. I mean so maybe tell us a bit about that and your thought process coming in and you know, what is it you're aiming to which we're kind of covering all of all saints now. What are you aiming to do and like let's chat about that? Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01So so the the context is um I had a sabbatical at Little Heath for three months, and actually Little Heath had grown to about 250 on a Sunday, and actually I was just thinking, how do we how do we push this church forward into the next stage of growth? How do we keep growing this place? What do we need to do?
SPEAKER_00Uh and is that because there's this weird thing, isn't there, where churches kind of top out.
SPEAKER_01There is, there's this whole thing, and so there's these barriers of growth you've got to get through sometimes. I know it sounds all very sort of like secular, but actually there is something about numbers and plateauing and how you push through that. So my sabbatical, my concern was for Little Heath, actually, how do we push it to the next level of growth? You know, we've we've we're full on a Sunday morning at the 10:30 service, and um, how do we push that forward? How do we grow? How do we expand? Um we'd run out of space. Um, and I so I went to my sabbatical, the focus of my sabbatical was visiting churches that pushed through that level of growth, uh, and actually just seeing what church leaders were doing and how they'd grown places. So that was that was the focus of my sabbatical, which is really interesting. I met some great people, I went and spent some time with a guy called Ray Evans, who's written a book called Ready Said He Grow, and he's the pastor of um uh Grace Church in Bedford, and that church has he's seen the church grow, uh, and it's a large church now. And I went to spend a day with him, he's very generous. He went on a Sunday and he taught me about just his strategies for growth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Also, I spent time with Chris Green, St. James Moswell Hill.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh he's done a lot of thinking about that. He's written a book about the church, there's a BST book about church he's written in. He taught me at Oakill, he's now the pastor of St. James Moswell Hill, and actually, time with him was really valuable. In fact, I went back to him before I came here to spend some time with him because he's thought this stuff through. Also, I did quite a bit of uh online stuff with a church called EV Church in Australia. One that started off very small. Tiny in its front room, it's just huge now, and it's great. It's thousands, isn't it? It is, and it's an amazing gospel place, isn't it? It's uh uh and they've got many congregations. And I think the things that these three places had in common, and have they pushed the levels of growth, was just a clarity about you know structure and organisation and thinking about ministry and church life. So and actually all of it has come out of Rip Warren's purpose-driven church. So they all say that's where it begins. You know, he had his baseball court and the different aspects of church life. But they developed their own little scheme. So uh Ray Evans had this triangle and had three M's, it's all these M's. Yeah, yeah, lots of M's, lots of rounds. So, yeah, ministry, maturity, and I can't a ministry I think mayhem. And and and the way Granny had that vision of this triangle, and actually over time he'd appointed staff to cover those areas to enable them to flourish. Yeah, uh, and over in Sydney, uh not Sydney in the central uh uh central coast uh uh Australia, Andrew Heard, he's got this thing called the Matrix. Okay, so I was giving it the red pillow. I think exactly it's very tight. And actually, but actually, once again, it's all these M's which you'll find in Rick Warren's book, yeah. Maturity, minister mobilization, multiplication, all those different things. Where you focus in on the different things that churches should be doing and you give leadership into those things and it enables stuff to push forward. And Chris Green has done that with a house vision. Look, this is the one look for him. It's our own artwork done by Barney, who's on a few years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so if you saw Barney a few weeks ago, there you go, this camera here. Look at that.
SPEAKER_01Camera camera two. Camera two, coming, camera two. It's a lovely leaflet we've produced. Look at it, it's beautiful. That's but uh and that's Jack Design did that. Credit for the book, yeah. Barney's picture. Uh but actually, so this is Chris Green's stuff. He had a different picture, and he very kindly let me use this. And the whole idea is that God is building his church, his house, and actually, ministry is seen in terms of a house, and you've got different rooms in the house, and I can't even see them, so old. So you go. Magnification at the heart of the house, which is about glorifying Christ, you know, Romans uh 12, and view of God's mercy. Uh, membership, maturity, mobilisation, ministry, multiplication. Uh multiplication is like more churches, more congregations for Christ. Mobilisation is all about you know, evangelism, membership is about belonging and fellowship and pastoral care, ministry is about you know serving, and maturity is all about growing in faith. And basically they just give a shape to what you're trying to do as a church and family, and the focus of that. And also, you've got the house frame, which is basically the structural stuff, you know, the buildings, the money, the staff and function and make stuff happen. And of course, it's all built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, it's all built on the scriptures. So and that was what I was tasked to do when I came. You know, All Saints is in good shape, it's a great church, but actually, one of the jobs I was given when I came by the diocese and by the uh the uh the PCC was the developer five-year candidate for the church for continue growth and focus in the industry. And actually, you know, I thought I'd be implementing all this stuff a little easier, but I think I'd use that time to help me think how I could do that for All Saints and um just try and clarify what we're doing as a church family. And actually now we have a member of staff in charge of most of these. Uh I think we launched it last year, the House Vision, and you're on. We've got various members of staff heading up different parts of the room, uh, different parts of the house to try and develop those and grow those. And they've all got, you know, we had a vision day and we the church family were involved and we did questionnaires and we produced a five-year plan which is in here, which is basically various things that we're going to try and do in each room in the house. Yeah. And it's just getting a bit of cloudy in terms of what I'm doing, what the church family are doing, and there's lots of overlap on them as well. There is, absolutely. It's kind of slightly artificial, sure. But actually it does kind of it does work so far.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And you because you but yeah, and you do need that though. You don't you need actually I mean, just just talking about Rick Warren's just the phrase purpose-driven church, it's very easy just to be maintenance mode church, isn't it? Absolutely. And not like we're going somewhere with a vision and this is where we want to go. And if you're complacent, you can look at the numbers and think like we're okay. And and also I think is you know, we are a largest church, and so it would be easy to do that. But I I just think I remember having a conversation with you, I think after so you came and you had your I don't know what they call it, when you have your you know, when they the bishop comes and the installation you know was installed. Installed you, like run run DOS or whatever it is, uh installed on the computer, um as on the operating system. Um I think after that, and then not long after that we had an APCM, which was the old style APCM where it was in an evening, I think. And the the conversation you and I had was I think I've said it to you. I said, you know, it was good there's there's people here. I said, but there's a lot of grey hairs here. Yes. And that wasn't a negative in the sense of, you know, there's nothing wrong with old people. No, no, I've got grey hair coming. Great that that thank you very much. Yeah, but but we're saying actually there's there's very much a danger of becoming an aging church. Um give it 10-15 years, actually, you could easily see how some of those people who are at the kind of middle age now are gonna be you know, through retirement and perhaps taking more of a backseat sometimes, but it was just noticeable, I suppose, that there is a there's we've got a good younger core at all saints, but actually you've got to build on that and go with that and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So and that's key, isn't it? One of the things I'm kind of slightly haunted by and challenged by is that whenever I go to like a big town event, so the carnival for instance, or like whenever I have a street market centre crowborough, I just see families, loads of families, and who need Christ. And I just think that you know, just having a clarity about we're trying to reach people for the gospel and we're trying to mature people, just keeping that on the agenda, keeping evangelism on the agenda and the subject on the agenda is key, but they've got a whole town to reach. And I I think of the stuff in Acts 18, and uh um the Lord speaks to Paul and he says about you know, uh, don't be quiet, uh, don't be afraid. Uh there's many more people in this town. And he sticks for a year and a half. But actually, there's a sense of actually there are people here who who the law will save, and actually we've got to keep reaching them. It's a huge encouragement and it's a massive task. But I see all these families at the school gates, and I see families in town, and I think, gosh, how are we gonna reach you for the gospel? And God in his grace very kindly is actually saving people. Yeah. But I should love to see more saved and more young families saved. And so you cannot be complacent. So I think something like this, you know, it's just it's um structural, but actually it gives a focus, isn't it? And it helps me, as I'd lead the church, I try and keep the vision, but also it help helps people think about what we're about. But the challenge is keeping this in front of people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it works two ways, doesn't it, or you know, or however many ways, more than one way. Yeah. Because it would like you say, it works for you as it it and as as you as the vicar and as a staff and as a PCC, that you have something you can say, we're are we still on track? Yes. Are we or you know, because it's so easy just to veer off or do other things. But also it's for us in the pew, it's saying this is who we are, this is what we do, and actually this is why we're here, we're not here just because because you know that it's so easy, isn't it, to come to church and be like, I'm just here this week for this is for me to get my top-up of the week or whatever it is, yes, and actually saying this is who we are, this is our mission, it works both sides, doesn't it? I've not really prepped you on this, but what I mean if there are people watching or may see this later, like people who run churches or whatever, yeah, um, and they're kind of thinking they're at that stage where they're just going, yeah, I don't know what to do. Like, what would you say, you know, what would you point them in the direction of to do now?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think if you're if you're a leader of a church, I think it's really great to get a church family together for like a vision boarding or something, just to kind of assess where you are. And that's the whole process of saying, look, where are we now? Five years' time, where would you love to be? And how do we get there? Um, some sort of structure, but it doesn't matter, it doesn't have to be the house. No, it can be sure. Or a matrix. But some way of saying, look, this is where we are, this is where uh uh under God we'd love to be. What are what are a few things we can do to get to that point? So it doesn't have to be as epic as this. This is quite a detailed document, but yeah, uh also since it's quite a complicated big church, so it's easier to do that. But it might be one or two things we're gonna do in the next year to actually enable us to get to where we want to be. Maybe we want to reach more families, how are we gonna do that? What are we gonna put on the church family to reach people, what's our strategy, what's our plan? It just sharpens the mind, doesn't it? Otherwise you can just and also you don't be overwhelmed, you know, different churches, different sizes and actually different pressures and stuff. But actually, we can all say, look, this is where we are now as a church. You know, Andy, we'd love to be here in two years or three years. Uh what could we do to try and get there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh and you might not get there, you might get there and exceed that, but it gives you a bit of vision and direction, doesn't it, in terms of what you're doing. And uh that's exciting for people because they can get behind that. Um yeah, uh I think that's that's absolutely uh Steve, thank you so much for coming and chatting.
SPEAKER_00It's been great to hear a bit about your uh your past and also to think about all saints, and I do hope, you know, I I hope there is stuff that's encouraging for people. Um you know, it might be there might be people who would just hear this and think, well, you know, I'm in the pew and actually you think, I could go to my pastor and say, what are we doing? and you know, and actually sometimes sometimes it needs that, doesn't it, from the ground up. Or there may be people who are running churches and you know, they just need that kind of the yeah, actually do want to go and do something. So thank you for joining me here. The weather looks like it's on the turn. So we're it's a shame, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01We're going holiday this weekend, aren't we? Oh we're different places. You go in as well. Oh yeah, yeah, lovely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so well But it's been great to have you here on the I was gonna say you've joined me here on the uh on the decking with the chimania. I have to mention the chimney because the chimney was actually that was actually my leaving gift from All Saints. Yeah. So uh it's been there on display. Um and my wife said the first week I was here, she said, you know, you didn't bother taking the cover off. I'm pleased you have. We used it the other night, actually. We've used it, we've used it a few times, but the the problem is you've just got to keep getting more wood. That's the thing, it does burn, isn't it? Yeah, so you know, ongoing. But um, yeah. So um, as actually you've just segued nicely saying on holidays, so actually, um I'm heading off uh next week. So actually, if you've been watching the live cast over the last kind of seven weeks while Glenn's been away and the interviews, hope you've enjoyed those. Probably that's gonna be kind of the end of our interviews, but there will be stuff out on Tuesday lunch times over the next few weeks still. Um I hope we can just put up a few kind of sermons a bit. So hopefully there's still be something if you're if you're the kind of person who sits down on Tuesday lunchtime, uh, eat your lunch, and you want something a little bit edifying, hopefully, something I provide you with will edify you in some way. Um but I think uh so that there won't be any more live interviews, um but I hope you've enjoyed them. Glenn does have an interview, I think, lined up. He sent me an email this morning. Um he's got something pre-recorded, um, but I don't know all the details about that yet, but do check in for that. Um but I hope you've enjoyed it. I hope you've enjoyed listening to Steve. Steve, thank you for joining me.
SPEAKER_02My pleasure.
SPEAKER_00And um I'll I'll probably see you live again sometime in September. So until then, uh have a good summer and uh take care.