The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_00Well, hello everybody and welcome to the live cast. If uh you haven't been watching for the last few weeks and you're wondering where we are, uh we're in my house, we're not in Eastbourne. Um, sadly, we're not out in the garden. The weather is absolutely gorgeous outside, um, but uh it's really really windy, and so the microphone was just peaking the whole time. So it would have been great to sit outside um and enjoy the uh the weather, uh, but we wouldn't have been able to get good sound and we couldn't even sort that out in post-production. So, apologies about that. So, we've kind of decamped to my dining room and hopefully uh let us know if you're watching a few people watching already, let us know if you can hear alright, because um we've been faffing with the microphones a bit as well. Um, so it'd be good to know if you're checking in. Hello to a few people who are watching. I can see uh my wife, hello, and uh I can see Andy from the office, which is great, and a few others joining us as well. Um, if you haven't been watching for the last few weeks, uh Glenn is away and we're doing a series of interviews. You may have heard uh last week our interview with Faith Summers, uh, where we chatted about kind of growing up in an abusive family, and that's an amazing story, you can still check it out. Um, it's on it's on Facebook. It's probably easiest to find it on Speak Life's YouTube page where um uh you've got the kind of uh fully nicely edited version with good sound because we had issues with the internet dropping, but this week we've we've changed the computer, we're indoors, hopefully it's all going to be fine. Uh so as I said, we've been doing some interviews, so um, I'd like to introduce you then to Mr. Sam Wilkes. Hello, Sam. Greetings, Paul, greetings. Hello, world. Yeah. Um Sam, really good to have you uh with uh with me today. Um most people watching, there'll be some people who you know and we know who have tuned in because they're interested to see you. Um tell us a bit, who who are you, Sam?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm Sam. Um I'm 19 and I'm a student at Bath Ball University doing acting, which is very, very intense but uh very fun.
SPEAKER_00Yep. And so that acting, is that the name of the because I was gonna ask you, I know you I know you're at Bath, what is is that the name of your degree, just acting? Because I know there's like physical theatre and it's just acting. Acting. It's basically like drama school training but at a university. Cool, okay. And so have you got uh particular ideas of what you want to do with that afterwards, what's the what's the dream? I the dream is to be an actor, but I mean there's And you're doing acting, yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's quite a few people who got to the end of the third year and went, nah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Um Sam and I um we've known each other now for it's probably eight years, is it? So Sam The breadth of your time. Yeah, Sam had the dubious honour of being uh in my youth group for um so it would have been I think seven of my eight years, wasn't it? I think that you and my youth group. Um so um obviously anything's anything Sam says that is good and sound, I'd like to take full responsibility. Anything heretical definitely you picked up somewhere else uh afterwards, and you know, it's nothing to do with me. Um so yeah, and you and I actually left at the same time, didn't we? Yeah. So when you you were just finishing, I was finishing, because um, I mean once once you were gone, I was like, what's the point going on? I got I didn't like the rest of them, so um so um you know and and most and so we would have a bit quite good relationship if you've got similar taste in music and things. I think you're probably a bit more prog than I am, aren't you? You yeah, I am I'm very prog. Very prog, very prog. And so we we kind of had a bit of a bonding, didn't we, in the YouTube as we Doctor Who. And Doctor Who, yes, yeah. So Doctor Who and our disdain for popular music today united us pretty much, didn't it? I think so. Um so uh we're here to chat a little bit today about how you came to faith and um also um kind of what it was like being a Christian at school and now at university and things like that. So um you you are a Christian, yes. Which is a good start. I mean, I hope so. Which is a good start. Um have you always been a Christian? Tell us a bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Um I would certainly have always um said that I was a Christian. Kind of the f you know, I grew up in a Christian family. Um the first 15 years of my life, I would, you know, if anybody had asked me, are you a Christian, I would have said yes, and I would have said, Yes, this is a a really major thing in my life. Um but it it wasn't something I thought about a lot, it was more something I accepted, you know. I didn't necessarily have a full understanding of what it was, but you know, I went to church every week and um and all of that. So it was it was there, yeah, but uh not necessarily as big as it is now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and actually we were talking yesterday saying, you know, it's you know, when you say to someone like, Oh, tell us about how you became a Christian, and people start off with, Well, I was I was raised in a Christian family. But I think I think we need those testimonies because so often you hear people say, like, oh, I haven't really got a story to tell, um, because you know, they think, Oh, I wasn't, you know, I haven't got this amazing story about kind of being pulled out the gutter and you know my life being turned around. It's this gradual thing being born in Christian family. But actually, I think it's really important because so many people's story is like that. It is the story of raising a Christian family and the gradual drip kind of feeding. Yeah. Um, so when we were chatting about this, you said um uh even though you weren't really a weren't really a Christian, you were sort of a nominal Christian up until the age 15. Talk about some of the ch I was surprised to find there were still some challenges you felt you faced as a as a Christian in Inverted Commons um in that period. So tell us a bit about what you felt as a Christian in that kind of time.
SPEAKER_01Um well certainly kind of uh later on, so kind of when I started secondary school, I was about 11 or 12, and of course, like there were moral challenges before then, but this is kind of the one that stuck out for me. Kind of 11 and 12, I went through the whole like teenage boy thing of um kind of you know discovering things like pornography and um lust was like a big thing that I felt really guilty about because I you know I would have called myself a Christian and I was very aware that this, you know, this wasn't a very Christian way to behave or to or to feel. Um but you know, in my head, every time I did it, I was like a little bit more condemned. Yeah. It got to the point where I was like, I can't I can't just apologise to God every time and just think that like that's gonna be okay. Yeah. Like, so it was like a really a really deep feeling of of guilt.
SPEAKER_00And maybe like uh like was there a kind of sense of you know you'd have a good week and it would feel good, yeah, and then there's the bad week, and actually you it's like so well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's really helpful actually, because I I think as I was thinking about it, um it would be easy to think, wouldn't it, if you're a kind of nominal Christian, you would I think by default, maybe I assume, then the nominal Christian isn't bothered about their sin because they're just quite nominal. But actually, your story is the opposite in a sense that you were more burdened by your sin because of your nominal kind of Christianity, you know. And and you know, we're obviously talking about you at school, but that could be the case for so many people out there who are the you know in church maybe, but they're a nominal, um, and all they do is feel guilty because they they haven't seen, they've not experienced kind of grace um or anything like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and certainly like growing up in that Christian family, it's still brought up with kind of that very that kind of moral compass, like you know what's right and you know what's wrong. So there's guilt coming from there as well. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um I meant to say at the beginning, and I forgot to say, that of course, if there are um if people uh uh want to ask questions as we go, um it's one of those things where there's only because obviously when I've got Glenn, when it's the Glenn, the two of us, both of us can keep an eye on what's going on on that, so I'm trying to juggle everything. So we might save questions at the end, I might try and have a look and see what's going on part way through. Um, but do ask questions if you'd like to as we go. Um so you've got this kind of nominal Christianity actually where you're kind of burdened by this this this guilt. Um what what was it that kind of changed then for you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so I think I was fifteen. Uh uh when I went to this how do you how do you describe Curtain's Arts?
SPEAKER_00Uh kind of Curtain's Up uh Script Union holiday. Yeah, it's in a script union camp, isn't it? And it's performing arts.
SPEAKER_01Performing arts, so it's a performing arts camp. It's not really a camp, but uh in a boarding school, yeah, so it's yeah, kind of halfway house camping. Yeah, so the first year I went, I was 15, so it was 2014. Um and that was really the first time that I'd had that experience of worshipping God with people other than the All Saints church family. Um, this was a new group of people, and they were all much closer to my age, and you know, I'd just never experienced God working in this way before, you know. People were, you know, they were falling to their knees and like getting really emotional and crying, and part of me was like, I have no idea why this is happening. Another part of me was like, this is so much more um exciting.
SPEAKER_00And it was that first we don't do exciting anymore in all saints, not in not in Anglican circles. You're not allowed to show emotion. That's it, that's an offence, that's church discipline.
SPEAKER_01But it was it was that first moment of there is so much more to discover about God. And you know, he felt the whole thing felt a lot less distant. Right, okay. So that that was that that felt like there was a definite shift at that point.
SPEAKER_00And kind of chatting to you, in it in a sense, that there was never really I mean, that was a kind of catalyst to use the word that we talked about yesterday. Um Sam always has an excellent use of language, that is one of Sam's defining characteristics as well. Um this was a kind of catalyst, but there wasn't there wasn't really a particular moment like bang, all the lights go on, you know, overnight conversion, so to speak. And and so how would you describe your conversion? You know, talk us through the when you got baptized, you had a particular analogy which everyone enjoyed very much so.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, a couple of years ago I got uh baptised, which was obviously fantastic, fantastic experience. Um and we'd done a I think we ran a you ran a session in 24-7 about like testimonies. Uh possibly so 24-7 was our youth group. Yes. Um I remembered a session about testimonies, uh, and the general opinion that had the the thought that stuck in my mind was that uh it's good to have an analogy in your testimony. So I came up with this analogy that I started my testimony with, my baptism, and it was uh that uh if you put a frog in boiling water, it will immediately jump out, but if you put the frog in just normal water and then heat it up, it will slowly boil to death. And then there was this short silence that I basically said, and that's effectively how God's come into my life. You know, um, but just genuinely like knowing myself, I know that if I'd got to the age of 15 and someone had uh come to me with this concept of God for the first time, I would totally dismiss it. Actually, growing up in a Christian family and just those the kind of basic the foundations of it being laid actually um was very important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know. Oh yeah, and and I think again, going back to the thing about people saying, you know, when they say their testimony isn't exciting enough or whatever, the whole raising the Christian family. I think we just forget when we when we are Christians and we maybe we raise in a Christian family and we're so used to Christians being around us, we forget that it is a real privilege to be raising a Christian family. Like it's not like oh that's the boring end of the story, like you know, um, you know, I wish I had something better to say than that. Um it is a privilege, so yeah, um no, I think it's a great thing. Um and we all love the frog analogy being slowly but God slowly boiled me to death.
SPEAKER_01It was just it was the sh shock when I said the initial the you know the initial analogy and then when I went on to explain the whole kind of old frog dying and like there's a new frog, that I just I just sense this relief in the room.
SPEAKER_00Well I think we were all wondering before, you know, how how hot had they made that water in the battery and pool it's just gonna be pretty awkward. Um but you yes, died, went down to death, boiled to death, rose to new life, so it was all good. Um and how did Matt thinking about that? You're talking about the guilt before. Yes. How did that affect the guilt in terms of that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I have to say immediately it didn't. Yes. You know, that that was all that's there. And yeah, it's not it's not something that necessarily goes away, but there was um it was very gradual. I started to realise Oh I don't have to feel um uh guilty about this because all this has been paid for. But um we did speak a bit yesterday, didn't we, about the it's the kind of pendulum. Yeah. Where you go from just like feeling really guilty about everything to go, oh I don't have to feel guilty about it, so you know I can I can sin all I want and not feel good about it, because it's been paid for, right? Yeah. So the romance sick stuff, you know. And then and then you kind of go, oh, but you know and so it's it's difficult to find that that kind of the right mindset.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean I'm always hesitant of using words like balance and middle ground, because I'm not always sure they're the right words, but that that idea of you know suddenly you've been so filled with guilt and you swing all the way to the other side of just like, wow, there's no guilt at all, but the danger is you hit a point where you're just like, well, my sin doesn't matter. Yeah. Um and in one sense that is very tr that's true. That not well, not that it doesn't matter, it's that it's all being paid for. Yes, but sin is still bad, so it's not just carry on doing what you like, and then the danger is you can you have that moment over there where you go, oh no, this isn't right, and you go, poosh, all the way back to guilt, and um, you know, and I think I think of um you know Martin Luther's kind of you know sim simultaneously justified, uh so righteous and a sinner, you know, and and that is the thing, isn't it? Is remembering that it's not our behaviour. Yeah, it's you don't want to fall back into that trap of good week, bad week stuff, isn't it? So yeah. Okay, so you've you've you've become a Christian, um or it's kind of been a gradual process, which is which is great. Um what kind of new challenges did that bring for you at school? Kind of you moving from just a kind of nominal Christianity to kind of a real authentic faith, I suppose. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um I went the secondary school I went to was um uh Bennett Memorial in Dumbridge Wells, which is a uh Christian school. Um but not everybody there was a Christian, and I hadn't I hadn't thought that was a massive issue for most of the time I was there. But then of course, once you know it was all a lot more real for me, you know, I I s started to realise that it it was a a very worlded place in the way that people were behaving, and um so maybe previously you'd seen it as quite a Christian environment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I guess there's a lot of Christian input in a C of E kind of school. Yes. It's the background noise of a school, I suppose. And and there's a kind of a lot of nominal things. Yeah. Nominal faith. Yeah, okay, so then yeah, didn't change a heart on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But the thing the thing that really really annoyed me, kind of progressively more so as I, you know, went through was um, you know, when we had assembly, we'd have assembly um I think every morning. I don't really remember. We'd have assembly.
SPEAKER_00It's only gonna get worse now as years go on, you won't be able to remember everything.
SPEAKER_01We had assembly and it they were just so dull, so boring, you know. Um there was no there was no joy of God in it.
SPEAKER_00And so the assemblies, I mean they were with a Christian that was a Christian influence kind of moment, but they were not very simple.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was Christian content, but so dull. And there was a point when people started to realise that that they had a choice about whether they could sing the um worship songs we were singing or not. Well what kind of songs would what kind of songs would they sang in school? Uh you know, I mean they were like legit in Crest Alone. Uh I remember singing legit.
SPEAKER_00Stuart Town End.
SPEAKER_01Legit.
SPEAKER_00I remember singing um Father God, I Wonder. Oh yes. I've got a great story about that song. Uh just singling out for a second. Right. So um at New Wine one time, they worshiped him at the front, and he said, I just feel a song rising up here, and someone in the congregation just started going, Father God, and he went, No, it's not that one. Anyway, back to you, Sam.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you know, there was a point where I was the only one who would sing after about the five. How many people how many people are there singing or not singing? I'm trying to think how many there were. Because the assemblies would either be our half of the school. Okay, so it would be yeah. A big number. A big number. We're like triple figures. A lot of people. Because even the people there who were Christians, they they didn't want to. Because at school I was all about, you know, like standing out from the crowd. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And certainly when we did class assemblies, I would always volunteer to write a poem. I would go up in front of the whole school and read a poem that I'd written. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But yeah. Yeah. And so you'd be s or not you'd be singing, I'd be all singing. Did anyone did that ever bring any do people ever comment on that at all? Or is it just occasionally awkward?
SPEAKER_01People would kind of look at me and laugh. Yeah, which point you singing starts starts to get a little bit quieter.
SPEAKER_00And and didn't you pray? You did a prayer once in front of the school and said Amen.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I did, yeah. I was I can't remember what the it was like a service or something, it was like a Eucharist. And they got me to read out this um this prayer, and I read the prayer. I thought quite well. And then at the end I said Amen to total silence. And the it was probably the head of year or someone was coming up to do the next bit, and I just kind of went, let's try that again. Amen. And then do you know it was like people kind of woke up, they were like, oh, okay, well, we're engaged, uh, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but so not uh you know, so actually, despite all that Christian input, it was very stale, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was kind of like there's people here who were at that point where they're making that choice and they're going, Well, I'm either gonna stick with this Christianity or I'm not, or some people didn't believe, and it's like you're still representing Christianity to these people as being dull and boring. Yeah. And it it's like the opposite.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's the one thing it shouldn't be, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. I mean, you if you if you you know, if when you've got the word of God to work with, the one thing you you shouldn't ever be is boring. That's like the thing you can do. So, what does that tell people? They're like, I don't want to be part of this. No, yeah, it just confirms kind of stereotype, I suppose, isn't it? And and tell me about I mean, always interested to know about RE lessons and what RE was like. I mean, obviously you're in a Christian school, but you know, non-Christian schools as well do RE. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, so this wasn't a matter of issue for me at the time because we took our RE G C S E a year early, so I took it in year 10 while I was still nominal. You know, not a proper Christian. But um they are very I think I think we said yesterday Christless. Yeah. Yeah. It's all about kind of the ethics of it. We do philosophy and ethics, and it's all about what Christians think about this issue or what Christians think about that issue. Of course, everyone else there has had this feeling of you know, they're they're forcing their beliefs upon us, you know, by making us right. But you know, but and particularly now I can see actually that wasn't it at all. Yeah. Because I mean they're all side issues, and it's not as black and white as that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there was never even in that, even in a kind of change of England school, I mean, following the the RE, I suppose the GCSE R E curriculum, isn't it? There is no real role for Jesus in there. Yeah. And I mean, and I experienced that I mean when I think back to my RE, I feel The same, but going into other secondary schools which are not Christian schools and always doing youth work. Yeah. And you know, nine times out of ten the RE it was always kind of obey the Ten Commandments and be good and and that stuff, and it was never anything with Christ at the centre. Um so okay, so you you've got a Christian, and so you stand out from the crowds because you you you re you realise that um people actually it's not a particularly Christian environment. Um and then when you finished, you did your GCOCs and then you actually moved to a different school for college, didn't you? Yes, I did. So talk a bit about how that environment was different to the school environment and kind of were there what were the different kind of challenges and opportunities that came up. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh so I went to college uh Sussex Downs in Lewis, um, and it was only really when I got there that it hit me this was the first place of education I've been in that wasn't like founded on those on those Christian values. Christian primary school and Christian primary school, Christian secondary school, and then I went to college and there was you know there was no Christian union or anything, so I didn't I didn't know another another Christian there. And it was that sense of like I still felt that was the right place for me to be at that time. But I had this real sense of oh God's God's gone and he's put me in the world, you know. Yeah, and now it's just me having to stand firm to this, yeah. Um and kind of the first year at college was kind of me working out how to do that.
SPEAKER_00What it looks like on the on the front line. Yeah, yeah. Okay, and so and what were some of those challenges? Because now you're in a an environment which you know is even less Christian perhaps than the nominal Christianity there was at secondary school. What were kind of the things, what was what were the challenges you faced there?
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean there was so like sexuality was a really big thing, like um homosexuality and all that. I would tell people, you know, I'm Christian, and the first thing would be like, oh you know, you must hate me because I'm gay, and it's like you know what, you know, but there were there were moments when I was a little bit harsh, I just kind of put it out there and might have lost a couple of friends, yeah, you know, in the process. So yeah, that first year was very much me trying to work out because there was there was another situation where a good friend of mine on my course said to me, So do you think I'm going to hell? Which is that's like a great open door to you know for authored opinion. It's quite a loaded question as well, isn't it? It's a loaded question. And I just turned to her and said, Yes. Well you're honest, you know, you're right. Which was I you know, I feel like that might not have encouraged her or that was in that. How did she respond? How did she respond when you said that?
SPEAKER_00I think it was kind of nervous laughter. But I mean interestingly, when we talked about it, that we we we were saying what were the biggest challenges, and so sexuality came up as a big one that people just assume you must hate gay people, um, and then hell was the other one, which I don't know, I don't know if we'd assume that's the obvious one that is going to be a challenge for people, but um but we talked a bit, you know, how if you can answer that question now, if someone said to you, Do you think I'm gonna hell? What I mean because there might be people in school now who are or at university, and the people are asking the questions like this, maybe even in the office, who knows? Yeah, what do you say? What do you think is a better way to respond to that now than our evangelistic amazon, like not how I did? Step one, yeah, don't say yes or no as a starter.
SPEAKER_01Well we said like um asking a question back, starting starting sort of treading lightly, you know, but then also talking about I think what what their definition of what what hell means to them, what what heaven and hell is to them, what heaven and hell is to me. Yeah, and then that's a way of then Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, always good if you can get around to Jesus, definitely. No, I think I think I think that's right though, and I mean the the asking a question back is just really biblical, isn't it? You know, yeah. Um I there's a great book which is worth people picking up if they can get it, I think called Questioning Evangelism, um, which is not questioning the concept of evangelism, but it's just uh it's about using questions in response. I think it's by a guy called Randy Newman, um, but not the you've got a friend in me, Randy Newman. Um but I think I think you're right that it the the most helpful way to respond to that is to kind of just probe a bit and say, ask questions back. Do you well what do you you know do you think you should go to hell? And who do you think should go to hell? And I think you'll get into those conversations about you'll probably push down the line if there were good people and there were bad people, that's what you're gonna find in their thoughts, I guess. Yeah, and then you've got a great opportunity. And I think you said you'd had those conversations where you'd explain to people that it's not about like there are the good people here and the bad people here, and you kind of explained the good news, and people's response was like awestruck was the word you used, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it I mean you certainly get that sense of them going, oh, you know, it's like that they I mean they don't like they don't like get it, but yeah, but they get it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which is nice. It's it challenges their conception, I suppose, of what they think you were gonna say. Exactly. And like I think we need to hear that. I think it's an encouragement to hear that people hear that and actually kind of go, like, okay, wow. Um because I think we have this assumption that people will react badly to the gospel. Well, yeah. And they will, some will.
SPEAKER_01Of course, because you know, it says all through the Bible, doesn't it, that you know, you know, we always face opposition. Yeah, to those who are perishing, you know. But it's important that people know that that is not always the case, and sometimes people do find it encouraging. And I found that when I say that I'm gonna pray for people, you know, they they always they always seem really touched by that. So it's not like the world has a total aversion to, you know, what what I we have to say.
SPEAKER_00No, and I think as well the other benefit of the generation that's growing up now, and probably my it's probably my generation below, I'm not sure, um, is that it was also new to them. There is not that nominal Christian background that like my grandparents had of growing up in a Christian society, so they've never even heard these ideas, so it is completely fresh, and I think that's a bonus, that's that's a pro in terms of our randomism in the future. Um, but we shouldn't be that surprised that when we share the good news, yeah, some people actually think it's good news, you know. Um and uh just tell us one more thing, I think, about there's an e the expectation the the other thing that you found hard was there an expectation on Christians to be perfect.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So tell us a bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there was there was one discussion in particular. Um there was this uh guy on my course um who didn't stay long, but um he uh he told a quite quite a rude joke, but it it was a funny joke, you know. I I found it funny, yes so I laughed, which is fair enough. Um and he totally turned on me, and you know, he was going, Oh, you you know, you call yourself a Christian, but you know, you laugh at jokes like that, you know, it was and it was this, I was just there like you're the one who told the joke. And he was just out of the blue, yeah, and it was this I don't know, it's just there's a total double standard. It's like people expect Christians in a way to be Jesus, yeah. And it's like, well no, actually, we're a Christian is just someone who knows that they're not perfect, yeah, but goes, I uh stay, need to do something about that. Or someone needs to do something about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's good for us to be held to a high standard, and we shouldn't hold ourselves to a high standard, of course. But of course, there are some people who are almost just looking for that reason to tear you down. But they probably don't hold them, he probably didn't hold himself to that same standard either. You know, he he certainly I know he didn't think he needed to act that way. And we talked yesterday about the kind of bizarre thing that people um expect you to be perfect as a Christian in, you know, whether it's school or anywhere, they expect you to be perfect, but also uh hate-filled, hateful. You know, of course you must be hate-filled because you must hate gay people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well it was like I joined a band recently and um as the drummer, uh, and almost every week there would be just someone who made some comment about, you know, the whole some joke about the whole God hates gays thing. You know, and it's just like that it's becoming people's like central idea of you know, and it's it's uh totally misled.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I guess for some people it's the only contact they have with Christianity in some ways is through that conversation in the media or whatever and stuff, so okay, so it it it is, you know, obviously it's tough being a Christian in school. And now you're kind of at uni now, you're at Bath. Yeah. So at university, uh obviously there are still challenges and things like that. So talk about, you know, are they are they similar kind of challenges or are the challenges a bit different at university?
SPEAKER_01Um well, in a way uni is um a little bit easier because um there is the CU, the Christian Union, and um, you know, there's there's a church there and I'm meeting up for what one-to-one, so there's a lot more Christian contact than there was for me at college, which you know did m make college quite difficult for me. Um, I think, you know, and um people people seem uh quite open at at uni, yeah. You know, um and kind of open to what I have to say and was that surprising to you that people were open? Yes, it's always surprising for me, you know, because you always meet people who won't even you can't mention it to them. So it's really nice to have people who are genuinely interested in um genuinely asking questions. Um there are challenges and mainly in the form of you know, I mean the kind of whole lust thing doesn't really go away. This isn't a human desire, I guess. Sure. Yeah. Um I don't go out an awful lot, but I often kinda go for pre-drinks. Yeah. Uh someone's flat, which you know, it's great to socialise with people, you know. Gotta be gotta be in the world. Yeah. Gotta be in the world a bit, at least. Yeah. Recently started casually drinking. Because I know for a long time you didn't drink. Yeah, that was my thing. I the thing is, I I famously didn't drink. Yeah. And I met up again with my musical theatre group at a party the other week, and uh I poured some cider out of my bag, and it there was just this stunned. They were like, what happened to the label bottle of water? You're the responsible one. It's like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, so um, but of course, like uh pre-drinks, there's a lot of attractive girls, you know, and you do find find yourself thinking certain things which are and the and the alcohol thing is so I mean I know from when I was in university, and I mean I don't I doubt much has changed. The alcohol thing is so huge. I mean we were saying how people would, you know, I'd say to people, well, you know, did you have a good night last night? And they said, no, I'm not drinking enough. Exactly, and it was like no, I didn't, I wasn't drunk enough. Yeah. And that and that's the and that was the bizarre thing that people saw a good night as being you had to be very, very drunk. Um what you know, it's just have a good time last night, yeah. What happened? Don't know, can't remember. And I think that's you know, but I think that there are challenges for Christians in that, aren't there? Um yeah, I know I don't know, I think you we talked together about you often find yours you can find yourself the kind of designated like looker after, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah um the or the one that people ask, what what happened last night? Yeah. I can't there was yeah, I can't remember the situation, but yeah, there was this one time that I saw a girl the next morning after she'd been like really drunk the previous night. And I was like, Did you have a good night? in a kind of concerned way, and she just thought for a really long time. And then she was like, I think I made out with so-and-so. And I was just kind of like, Yeah, yeah, you did. Right. Yeah. So there's that that kind of thing where they're like, Did I did I did I do that? I'm like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's difficult, isn't it? I mean, in the midst, you know, when you I mean I would say having you know been at university as well, like the there was this kind of, you know, I I would say, right, I will have this, I will have, you know, this many drinks, and then it'll be on to the cokes or whatever it is. Um but in the heat of the moment that can be really hard to like stop. Get when you get caught up and someone's, you know, someone says, Oh, you know, I'm going to the bar or whatever, and they and I mean I'd even be in situations where I mean it wasn't when I was at university, it was between a year at university where I worked for a hotel, right, and I I'd stopped drinking at that point. And um when I went to the hotel, like staff do the guys when they I they said, Do you want to drink? And I said, Oh yeah, I'll have a coke or whatever, they brought me back a beer. Um and you know, if you're handed the thing, yeah, and that's very difficult to know what to do in that situation.
SPEAKER_01Because like peer pressure is a massive thing at any point, and it's something that I've always been quite against. But when you are with a group of people that you know you love being around, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think you know, yeah, people you don't want to kind of miss out on this, exactly. But I mean we talked as well, like it's quite difficult clubbing, it's quite difficult to go clubbing until four in the morning when you're when you're sober. Like it is a break you know, you hit a point where you're like, I'm pretty much ready to go home now.
SPEAKER_01I've been at clubs for like a long time after I wanted to leave before. It's like everyone's dancing and I'm just kind of standing there, just like, why am I not in bed? You know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and as a you know, I certainly felt as a Christian you there are those moments where you you you think I've gotta watch so and so, like, where is this person? This person went to the toilet 45 minutes ago and hasn't come back.
SPEAKER_01It's like I I always try and stop people from you know doing doing whatever. Yeah. But it's like there's this voice in my back of my head that's going, Sam, they don't care. They don't they don't have what you have. Yeah. You know, make it sound like a disease. And it is contagious, but you can catch Christianity.
SPEAKER_00Um it's totally viral once you've got it, it's in the system. Um but yeah. Yeah, so I mean, and I think that is tough, isn't it? I think any Christian at university will face the the the the temptations of alcohol, um, particularly. Um talk a bit about I mean you said it it in some senses easier because you've got things like Christian Union and ch uh we talk about like church search and stuff. Oh, yeah, so some people who who haven't been to university or maybe things have just changed over the years. Tell us a bit about what a Christian union at a university does and what it kind of looks like, how it's helpful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's really helpful and that it gives you that kind of weekly um kind of gathering you can go to, sort of gathering of um Christians, and you know, we'll uh worship together and um we get speakers to come in. Um you know, so it's it's like a a mini informal church or whatever, you know. Um there'll be events, you know, we've got a great relationship with this pub in Bath Brew House, yeah. Um you know, and we did a barbecue and we did a uh quiz night, you know. So um it's it's a really great time to bond with with other Christians as well and form that group because it is important to have that point, you know, particularly when certainly when I'm struggling with with other aspects of uni life, yeah. Having that group of people that I can come back to that we can you know spend time with God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um it's difficult to keep going just by yourself. Yeah. I once heard someone say, I mean, they were talking about it wasn't specifically you know just spending time with Christians, they were talking about church, but um they said, you know, a Christian without a church is like a tree without water, it can stand, but not for long. Yeah. Um and I think that applies just in in terms of having I mean, what is church anyway? Having those Christian, you know, two or three gathered, whatever it is, you need to be around other Christians, don't give up meeting together, as Hebrews says, to encourage each other and and whatnot. So I think that is such an important factor of Christian unions. And just tell us a bit about I mean you touched on it slightly uh the evangelistic side of the Christian union, kind of you you you've had a like events weeks, what do they kind of look like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well yeah, we'll tend to um events weeks there'll be uh kind of uh meals and things at different places and we get a speaker in, so I think events week they had the same they had the same speaker all week, which gave it like for anyone that was coming back, it was like coming back to a a series and continuity, I don't know. Continuity. I I don't know, I might be wrong. But um because I I could only go to a couple of those events, but there was uh one event that I invited uh a good friend of mine who's um Muslim too, and she came and she brought a friend and she loved it and said the talk, she really enjoyed the talk, she found it really interesting, and you know, she would she would come again um which is really encouraging. That's another really encouraging moment of kind of seeing actually really positive contact that that non-Christians are having with um with the gospel, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, with the gospel. Yeah, and I guess like you said, yeah, like you were saying, there there is an openness when people have come away from home maybe for the first time, and there is this kind of I'm free to be me now. Everyone's finding themselves, yeah. Um because everybody's lost. Everybody's lost spiritually, yeah, you know, emotionally, physically, they can't find their way around the buildings, around the site, everyone's lost.
SPEAKER_01That's very much what college felt like when I got there. It was like there was this freedom, and everyone was you know, it was just individual central.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I think the the thing I remember being surprised about at university was that people are open. People would, if you're invited, come along. I mean, particularly Christian unions were very good at offering free food as well, which I think for students is the main is a real winner. Bait that hook and throw it out there, you know. Um but people were really open, I think, at university, because there's that point where they are thinking, you know, all this stuff, just like you know, as a Christian, you might leave you might leave home, and there's that maybe that point of how much of my faith is just an inherited thing from my parents, and there's a point where maybe it becomes real. For a lot of people, there's also that moment when they leave home for the first time and they start to think, well, now I don't have to be quite like my mum and dad. Who am I? Yeah, who am I? Who am I? I'm a picker, I'm a grinner. So um, yeah, I think there are those opportunities, aren't there? So I know UCCF are the kind of Christian union guys, aren't they? Um, who do an amazing work and support all you through that stuff? Yeah. Pretty fantastic. Let's just think briefly then. I mean, there may be people out there who who are in school or at university, they're Christians, and maybe they they do feel maybe like they're the only person or they're facing the challenges or stuff that we're gonna be talking about. What kind of things would you say to them about, you know, if they're in that situation and they're saying, What what do I do? What's I need help? What would you say?
SPEAKER_01I mean, first put of call CU, you know, most most universities have um a CU or like a really good Christian union. It's really important to get stuck in with that as soon as possible. Um they'll often run church searches. So um I've this last time I became the co-president of the CU at Bath Bar, so kind of planning for Freshers Week and stuff. And um, like the one thing that in my mind was like we have to do was we have to have the the church searches. It's like we'll meet and then we'll uh get on the bus and we'll have certain people taking people to whatever church. Yeah, and we do that for like four weeks, and it just gives people the opportunity to see different um churches and just just kind of yeah, kind of work out where where they belong in that place, which is really good as as soon as possible to find that kind of Christian place of belonging.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, and like we were saying before, you need to be meeting with other Christians. You know, so particularly if there's people at university who haven't got a church yet, you know, yeah, go and find one. Christian Union will can help you. Um but also for the person maybe in sex form now who's going off to university in September time. You know, actually UCCF are very good because I think most universities you can contact the Christian Union I think even before you go, you know, there's a way to get in touch and just say, Hello, I'm coming and I'm staying in this hall or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they kind of make a note and they say, Right, we'll come and find you and we'll take you know and contact you about this event. Um so you know, if you're going to university, I really recommend doing that and getting stuck in. Um and talk a little bit about um that's more uni-based. If you're at school, I mean, so the person who's in school may you know, there might not be a Christian union in school. Yeah. Um what would you say to them, maybe kind of things they should they should do and be helpful for them?
SPEAKER_01Um well it's so when I was at school, obviously I had a church back home to keep going back to. So I'd say in any situation, it is important to have a church and to uh belong to a church. Um you know, certainly that would be the main thing. Um and even just so I I don't do you mean like specifically Christian schools or I know in any in any school if you're whatever school you're in, you know, it could be a secular school.
SPEAKER_00Just yeah, and just praying. Yeah. Reading the Bible.
SPEAKER_01That's plus words.
SPEAKER_00Praying and read the Bible. Go to church. But no, but that it's so true, isn't it? I mean, it's that how you know, read your Bible, pray every day, the song, isn't it? But I mean, there's so much wisdom in it as well. Um and you uh so another thing I think you do it at university, which I think is helpful to just mention as well for the person who maybe needs help. Um tell us a bit about one-to-ones. What is a one-to-one?
SPEAKER_01So I um this past year, uh academic year, I've been uh meeting weekly with uh one of the mission partners at our church, uh no longer, but um yeah, and it's just it's so helpful because um you know we can work at our own pace. Um if you know if there's something that we kind of skip over and I want to know more about, you know, I can go like I I don't quite understand what uh what it's saying here, you know. And it I can apply it much more to my specific situation, and in a way we can learn from each other from the discussion of it. You know, I I found it a lot more valuable than you know some big CU sessions or um services or youth sessions or whatever. Yeah, there's a I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's and I think that is the difference, isn't it? You know, if you were to say, well, if someone say, Well, I go to Bible study already in a group and stuff, why do I need to do a one-to-one? Well, you don't have to do it one-to-one. Um, but the benefit, I think, like you say, is that more personal element, and it often it is it is a relationship, isn't it? Based on it's not just too random as often, you know, there should be a it might start a bit like that, but the idea is you you develop some relationship and there is an opportunity to go a bit deeper and for there's normally an older it tends to be an older, wiser Christian, doesn't it, with a slightly younger Christian, although you know I guess the older you get the trickier that might become. Um but it's it's like you say it's that iron in iron sharpening iron type thing, and yeah, you know, I think asking difficult questions, being accountable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's also interesting coming from do two different backgrounds, because obviously I grew up in a Christian family, and um uh the guy I meet with didn't you know sort of discovered it later down the line. So it's like two different ways that we've come, two different paths that we've come down.
SPEAKER_00Um so you both got things and I mean even if you both had Christian backgrounds, I'm sure you'd have different perspectives on different experiences, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But again, just shows the value of meeting with other Christians to keep us going, doesn't it? Yeah. Um I think, I mean, we've kind of almost reached the end of what we're talking about, we've actually got a question. Oh, so we've got a question here. So a question here from uh Christopher Dempsey. Right. Uh it says, with the challenges that young people face in today's society, would Sam agree that an increasing number of young people are seeking stability through a Christian life? Wow. Yeah, what in what sense? Like seeking stability. Would Sam yeah, I mean, with the challenges young people face in today's society, would Sam agree that an increasing number of young people are seeking stability through a Christian life?
SPEAKER_01So as in uh uh people becoming Christians to provide a kind of stable foundation to help with the challenges of Well, I I guess maybe the question is I think I mean I think young people do have more pressures on them today, probably, than even in my day.
SPEAKER_00I think I mean the pressure's always been there, but m more now. I think they're ramped it's ramped up now through through this the school system seems to be even more hot on examining examining seems to be you know hot on examining people all the time, and people's you know, there's this kind of sense in which young people's value, even more so than it was before, seems to be derived from their examination results, mental health issues seem to have grown. Um social media seems to just take over the world, you know. Um I mean we were we were away this weekend on these camping weekends with our church. The thing I really loved is that I barely looked at my phone. Yeah. Um actually for young people that's quite hard, you know, to not have to. I'm not I'm not gonna deny that. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so I suppose the question is, do we I mean do we do are young people I mean Christopher Dempsey's question is are they do we think more people are seeking stability through Christianity? I don't know. I don't know what the the odds that the statistics say that whether I don't I yeah I don't know enough about No, I I think I mean like like we said there are pros in society that the fact that society is becoming more secular and a lot of young people don't have a Christian background, there are pros on that front that the gospel is fresh. Yeah um I think there's also it's a double-edged sword you know it it's terrible that young people are feeling so you know facing so many struggles through the the school systems and through mental health, but in a sense but in a sense there's such an opportunity for the gospel to speak into that and say, you know what, yeah, no, your value isn't based on you know what grade you get in this or how you perform um in the school, your value is you know you are maybe in the image of God, you have someone who died for you because they love you. Um and that is a diff we've got an opportunity to to tell a different story to the world. Yeah. So whether so I think there are opportunities, whether people are turning in their masses on that, I'm not sure at the moment. Yeah. But I feel, I mean, I I like to think that as society becomes more secular, in a sense the gospel's gonna be more it's more impactful. Yeah. In a sense, I'd like to think that's the way it will go. Umly hope. Yeah, absolutely. Hope and pray. Hope and pray, yeah, definitely. Um any other bits coming in, I think. Any more for any more, any other questions? I think I think we pretty much got it. Sam, thank you for speaking to us all today about your experiences. We will um uh you know, we'll who knows, maybe we'll hear more from you in the future. Um but it's been great for people to hear about challenges of being a Christian in school and at university. So, you know, if you know people who are in school at university and you think it'd be helpful for them to hear this stuff, do share this with them. It will be on YouTube and stuff later and stuff like that. So, um, yeah, Sam, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. No worries, thanks. Um, we're pretty much at the end now. Um, thank you for watching. Um, do give the page on Facebook a like if you haven't already, and do get subscribed on YouTube, that kind of stuff. Um, that's already helpful for us. Um we've had Faye, we've had Sam. Next week I'm going to be speaking to Ian Barnard, um, or known as Barney. Um, Barney is a uh graphic designer, um, he does a lot of kind of calligraphy work as well, but he's done a lot of work with um big big companies, so stuff with Google and Adobe, and I know he's done some stuff for Speedo as well. Um, I've asked him not to wear his Speedo's next week. Um but um he's gonna be in next week chatting a bit about how he became a Christian and also um how he sees his faith or how he he he tries to be a witness in his in his work through the work he does in graphic design. So that should be great. So, guys, thank you so much for watching. Um, hopefully, you've enjoyed today, and uh, do join us next week. Thanks very much. Bye.