The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_05Delayed gratification. I couldn't wait to talk to you about this topic. Delayed gratification is meant to be the secret of success for any go-getting achievers out there. You've seen the experiments where kids are meant to resist eating a marshmallow because if they exert their willpower, they'll be given a second marshmallow later. The results are pretty funny. A recent study used a much higher sample size and controlled for factors like a social, economic, and educational environment for the kid. And it turns out that once you control for those factors, resisting a second marshmallow isn't really a guaranteed pathway to life success. Rich kids who scoff that first marshmallow still succeed because they're rich kids. Poor kids who hold out for that second marshmallow find that two marshmallows rarely compensate for poverty and crushing disadvantage. It seems like willpower is not the cure-all for social mobility. But then why has this study been so widely cited since it was published in 1990? Surely it's because we are all willpower junkies. We want to believe that no matter who we are, where we've come from, what obstacles lie in our path, it doesn't matter if we arm ourselves with unbreakable willpower and moral resolve, we can do it. On Friday, I had the huge privilege of being invited to the local mosque for an iftar. Now that's the meal at sunset celebrating the breaking of the fast during Ramadan. If you've never been invited to one, just ask a Muslim friend of yours. In my experience, Muslims are incredibly hospitable and eager to share. But having eaten this very tasty meal post-sunset, uh, my friends all began to joke about how much they were putting on, how much weight they were putting on during Ramadan. It's a common joke that Muslims make during Ramadan, that the that the statistics bear out. Uh in Muslim countries like the United Arab Emirates, 10% more food and drink is sold during Ramadan than at any other time of the year. And the teaching of the Imam last Friday really bore that out. He taught that fasting was an act of righteousness which Allah saw and then rewarded with a feast. Kind of like the marshmallow test writ large. It's a common theme with my Muslim friends that life is a test. If you forego the nice things now, you'll be rewarded in paradise with all those nice things times a million. And it seems to me like this is human religion as the marshmallow test. Christians fall for it too. I mean, we often think of God as some kind of social scientist carrying a clipboard, and we are the subjects of the experiment, flexing our willpower muscles, and he is hoping that we pass the test. But friends, that is not how it works. And the debunking of the marshmallow test points to the way that it does work. You see, the debunking of the marshmallow tests tell us that there is something deeper than willpower. It's not willpower that leads to the good life. Both willpower and success in life flow from something prior. What is that something prior? Loving security, a sense of home, a place free from scarcity. That's what really helps you to delay gratification, and it's what it's what helps you to live to your full potential. Now I'll let politicians and educators and scientists debate what that means for social mobility, but let me tell you about what it means for you and God. God is not like the scientist in a white coat holding a clipboard waiting for you to pass the test. God is more like the loving family that nurtures you, gives you every blessing, every security, every advantage, and he gives it to you at the outset. Life is not about you and your willpower, it's about his loving security, which is good news. Because willpower is not our strong suit. It's the 4th of June, this is Speak Life, and you're watching the life cast. Did you notice the the mistake, the deliberate mistake that I put into that uh live cast video?
SPEAKER_04Well, I certainly didn't until you told me.
SPEAKER_05So whether anyone else would. It's not the 4th of June, it's the 5th of June. Sorry about that, everybody. I'm a day. Apparently. It's a Tuesday, anyway. I'm questioning myself now whether it really is the 5th of June. And you are Paul. And I am Spartacus. Um great to be with you all on this Tuesday lunchtime. And uh yeah, I was just talking about the ifta that I was at uh on Friday night. And if if you've never enjoyed an ifta before, uh yeah, big slap-up meal, everyone comes, massive community feeling. And uh yeah, I I got uh invited, the the Imam himself uh invited me. And uh so yeah, so we were um uh enjoying that together, and it it just was it was very um uh I I felt like I was brought in on uh on a kind of a um an in-joke uh within the Muslim community, which which was wonderful. That that they started to feel um very comfortable with with me, and and they started to talk about how much weight they were putting on during Ramadan, which is famously the fasting month. Right, yeah, yeah. And uh and actually, you know, uh this is a a a a common joke uh among Muslims that that during Ramadan um I'm feeling a little bit self-conscious that I'm sitting here now, and I go on. That's right. 1.6 billion Muslims are able to resist, but you, Paul, you have not delayed gratification. No, no. No. Well, I've got some I've got some mini chatters, so you know. Uh we we're both very bad Muslims, I guess.
SPEAKER_04I guess that's very bad Muslims.
SPEAKER_05Very bad Muslims. But um but what was interesting is that um yeah, very much what the Imam was sort of teaching just before uh Weigal 8, he had a kind of a mini sermon about the meaning of Ramadan and the meaning of of um the fast. And it was very much this sense of we fast now, um and then we get rewarded. And it was very much the case as of oh, it's 9.05, it's sunset, go for it. Um and away we went. And and actually um a lot of Muslim friends, uh Biddy Mutter is saying, I wish I could hear you. Um are other people having difficulties hearing us. I hope I hope we can be heard. Oh, I can I can hear myself, Biddy. Um I can hear you. We can hear each other. Um so but but very much uh very often um uh you know I subscribe to and I'm a member of a a number of different um sort of Facebook groups, which is Christian and and Muslim uh debates and that sort of thing. And very often what would happen is um there'd be some kind of sex scandal about a Christian pastor, and that would be put up by by the Muslim. Uh, and it was then said that um what Christians really need to have is um a a belief that in paradise we can have all the sex that we want. Right. Because it's because if if sex is only for now, then we're gonna, you know, go get that out of the way. Run after fornication and all that kind of stuff. But if you know that you can have sex with whoever you like, you know, in the future, then you'll be like the kid with the marshmallow and you can say no to the marshmallow now. Sure. Because later on you'll get two. Yeah, yeah. Or seventy two. Seventy, yeah. Yeah. So but you know, it's it's not just Islam that I that I think where people think in these terms, although it is it is very striking that that very often Muslims will t talk to me about life being a test.
SPEAKER_04How do we because I I'm completely on board with all of that and how actually Christianity should be different. But how when 'cause I know I'm probably I uh a phrase I use sometimes is kind of you know the cross before the crown and suffering now, glory later, um, you know, the pattern of Christ's life, and you know, we're denying ourselves. So so where's the what's the difference there?
SPEAKER_05I think that well there's still there's still definitely a place for a place for fasting. So Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount he doesn't say um if you fast, then don't disfigure your face. He says, when you fast, don't disfigure your face. And and and so he was very much into secret fasting, so not in order to be seen by people, right? So that was very important. Um and he says it's very appropriate because you know, while the bridegroom is with you know his disciples, we are not to fast because it was inappropriate for the disciples to be fasting in the presence of the bridegroom, but then he said, when the bridegroom is taken away, you will fast. It's a sad time, because you know, can you imagine you know the police dragging uh a groom, kicking and screaming from from the the wedding reception, you know, which is kind of like this image of the cross that the groom is being taken away, and then people are not then gonna say, Oh, pass me another slice of wedding cake. You know, at that point there is an appropriate nature to fasting, yeah, but none of it is about earning a double portion later. It's it's not about God sort of waiting to see you know the the our moral character and our resolve and our sense of willpower. Um it is very much about tr walking with Jesus through suffering and out the other side. But it's not that our suffering earns anything later at the other end. You know, it's Christ's suffering that earns us for free, you know, it eternal blessings. Um so I think yeah, there there is definitely a time and a place for fasting in in Christianity, but it is not the case that we do it in order to obtain later. Win, you know, win more stuff later. Which again I think casts God in the role of the social scientist with the clipboard. And what I what I found really interesting about the the um the social science being done that was kind of overturning the marshmallow test, is that what they found, surprise, surprise, is that it wasn't the willpower of the child, you know, in that moment that was really most significant. What was most significant is whether the kid was in a secure, loving home with all the advantages of of you know that that brings. That that brings. Um and that's and that's actually, you know, if you're gonna draw a parallel, that's actually the place of God in that analogy. The place of God is not the one with the clipboard, you know, testing you. The place of God is actually the loving parent who's providing you with every blessing already. You know. And it was just interesting looking at the the um uh the marshmallow test being debunked, and actually it just makes sense, doesn't it, that that actually, you know, a kid who just scoffs the first marshmallow, um, he has not scuffed his chance for success in life. Um because, you know, maybe maybe the kid knows that actually after the experiment's over, you know, mum's gonna take him for an ice cream anyway. So who cares? Yeah. Sure. So actually the you know, the the rich kids could be scoffing the marshmallows and still succeeding very well in life, and the poor kids could be, you know, delaying gratification and still failing in life because it wasn't really about the willpower. But how interesting that we we want everything to be about willpower, because we we don't want to be a victim of our circumstances, understandably. And we want to think that if we just pull ourselves together, pull our socks up, then we can make it happen in life. And actually, I I think um this later debunking of the marshmallow test points in the direction of the truth that actually it's not really down to us and our willpower, it's actually much more about a loving environment that nurtures you and launches you into life. So I don't know. That's what I took from that. Fair enough. But it's it's it does Fair enough. It does it does seem like um a lot of social science experiments are being kind of debunked or overturned or questioned, at least. And um there does seem to be a little bit of s uh sort of a crisis in psychology uh about the ability to replicate these tests. Um, you know, so someone might do a you know a test with you know, the original marshmallow test was only done with 90 people, uh 90 kids, and now the later one was done with nine hundred, you know, and that's that's more of a you know a proper sample size. But you do just wonder, you know, how many how many times when you read about, you know, well the best studies show XYZ, and you're like, hmm, I wonder.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05In ten years' time, what will they say?
SPEAKER_04Well it's always there's always ever shifting stuff, isn't there? But that could work both ways, you know. I'm sure there are things that you know we would say, oh well the research is showing a lot.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. Yeah. Everyone needs to have a bit of humility about it. And and you know, what put me onto this was um Glynn Harrison, professor emeritus of psychiatry at uh at Bristol University. He he tweeted out um when he was tweeting about tweeting out about the marshmallow test, he said, yet another classic psychology study that did not hold up under longer scrutiny and relocation. Keep this in mind when you hear the assertions and claims of activists, whatever the cause. Um and I think that's right, there's activists on all sorts of sides, and there's confirmation bias, you know, which which is I'm gonna listen to the tests that confirm what I already believe, and I'm gonna just ignore the tests that go in the other direction. Um and it also it also kind of made me a little bit um skeptical about the way that you set up tests as well and set up experiments. Um there's this this this classic episode of of Yes Prime Minister uh about questionnaires and how taking surveys uh the the leading questions before the the big question um completely reshape uh the way that people answer questions. Let's let's watch this uh Yes Prime Minister clip.
SPEAKER_00Well I have another opinion poll done showing the voters are against bringing back national service. We can't be for it, though. Of course they can, Bernard. Have you ever been surveyed? Yes. Well, not me, actually, my house. Oh, I see what you're saying. Well, Bernard, you know what happens. Nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously, you want to create a good impression. You don't want to look at a fool, do you?
SPEAKER_07No.
SPEAKER_00No. So she starts asking you some questions. Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs? Yes. Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers? Yes. Do you think there's a lack of discipline in our comprehensive schools? Yes. Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives? Yes. Do you think they respond to a challenge? Yes. Would you be in favour of reintroducing national service? Oh, well, I suppose I might. Yes or no? Yes. Of course you would, Bernard, after all you've told you you can't say no to that. So they don't mention the first five questions, they publish the last one. Is that really what they do? Well, not the reputable ones, no, but there aren't many of those. So alternatively, the young lady can get the opposite result. How? Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war? Yes. Are you worried about the growth of arms? Yes. Do you think there's a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill? Yes. Do you think it's wrong to force people to take up arms against their will? Yes. Would you oppose the reintroduction of national service? Yes.
SPEAKER_05See? Yeah. That's good stuff, isn't it? It's all about how you frame it. Good old yes Prime Minister. I remember that was that was the that was my first television memory, actually. It was uh my parents, they would be sitting on the couch and I'd be, you know, with my nose just pressed up against the TV screen. Really? And watching Yes Minister and then yes Prime Minister. And then I I still remember there would be the laughter happens on TV. And I go, ha ha ha ha. And if my parents were not laughing, I'd sort of look back to them like sc scorning them, like no sense of humour for you guys then.
SPEAKER_04Um I think my first TV memory is probably like Button Moon or something. What's your favorite, you know, your first parted TV memory? Oh yeah, yes, prime minute. Oh, question time, I believe.
SPEAKER_05And uh just me getting very angry at David Dimbleving. No, yeah. So um so yes, all all part of, you know, a healthy skepticism about um certain sort of social science uh experiments and that kind of thing. Um on the comments, um Ben Virgo has said, Hey Glenn and Andy and Paul, I guess. Uh are you aware of the emergency question scheduled to be debated in Parliament for this very moment? Uh being put by Stella Crease, which argues for abortion legislation being abolished right across England and Wales, it would mean the introduction of abortion on demand for any reason up to birth. Um so I've just been very quickly googling that, and there does seem to be some kind of uh emergency bill being debated. So uh if you're the praying type, please do pray. Shall I pray now? And um let's just uh uh call on God. Father, we um pray that you would protect the smallest members of our society. We pray that you would protect the weak and the vulnerable. We pray that we would as a society have uh a vision for life, and a vision for the protection of life and the offering of hospitality to those who are weak and marginalized. And we pray that this would apply outside of the womb, and we pray that it would apply inside the womb. And so we pray that you would protect um life, protect the unborn, and would you help us as a church to continue to lift up uh the despised, the weak, the poor, and the marginalized, to protect them and to show that in Jesus uh this is your vision for life, not about the strong but about the weak being lifted up. So, Lord, would you uh protect life even right now, even in Parliament? And would you help us to proclaim life wherever we are and to point always to Jesus in his name. Amen. Amen. So we've been thinking about uh all sorts. Uh we've been thinking about uh Iftars and Ramadan. We've been thinking about the uh marshmallow experiment. Um but also what we've wanted to get on to uh has been our thorny question uh for this week. Uh you might know that uh every Monday we um release a video about five minutes long where Paul and I address an issue uh that might be a barrier to faith. And uh suffering tends to be uh a big question that people have. And uh I think I mentioned last week that um this never happens, but I was giving uh a seminar on the question of suffering where I sort of went through here are the reasons why a good God might allow a suffering world. And uh the following day a woman came up to me called Jenny, and she said, Um, I came to this festival, um, came to this um yeah, festival, uh not a Christian, and uh my big question was, how can God allow suffering? And then you answered my question, and I had no more, you know, objections that I could make, and so I gave my life to Jesus last night, and I'm a one-day old Christian. And you're like, Wow, that that never that never happens. So because I I often poo-poo the idea that there are all these objections to faith, and you've just got to, you know, help somebody to to get over these different hurdles, and then naturally they'll just give their lives to Christ. But um happened for Jenny. That's being poo-pooed. That's been poo-pooed. That's why I'm here to give those kind of uh in-depth analysis, the poo-poo of the poo-poo. Um poo-poo squared. And uh So that that rarely happens. The whole idea that we just we just you know get rid of someone's objections to faith and then all of a sudden they they um come to Christ.
SPEAKER_04You kind of assume, don't you, that often when people say, Oh, well, I can't be a Christian because of the suffering thing, really, that if you were to address it, they go, Oh no, still not. And you assume that it's really just a uh a mask to something else. Yeah. So actually it is really unusual, isn't it, to have someone go, Oh, alright then. Yeah, where do I sign?
SPEAKER_05But what was interesting actually in in her story is that she had suffered a lot in life and she yeah, she needed to know that there was someone who could handle her suffering. So I think there was a lot there was a there was also a desire that not just that there's an intellectual answer to suffering, but that there's someone who could join her in the suffering and could handle it and could walk her through it. Which kind of brings us to our thorny question for this week. Um, which, you know, our first three thorny questions about suffering were a little bit more on the philosophical side, I guess, a little bit more on the um just the intellectuals side of how can a good God fit with a bad world. But this week we're very much um looking at how do I actually walk through suffering and how does Jesus actually help? Um so let's uh have a look at the first minute or so of this and then we'll talk about it. Last time we saw how everything about the problem of suffering points to the truth of Christianity. A fallen world tells the Bible story, the story of an original goodness that has been spoilt. Also, in this series, we've seen how Jesus gives us the problem with suffering that we need. He allows us to call evil evil and to rage against it. What's more, Jesus gives us the solution to suffering that we all crave. He alone gives us a future for these bodies in this world. But now we get to The heart of the matter. How do we actually cope with suffering?
SPEAKER_04Here are two false responses. Firstly, stoicism. To your eye, that means stiff up a lip.
SPEAKER_06Now stand aside, worthy adversary. Tis but a scratch. A scratch? Your arms off! No, it isn't. But what's that then?
SPEAKER_04I've heard worse. A Stoic takes suffering in their stride and tries to live above it as much as they can. That's not the Bible's way. In the book of Psalms, there are 150 songs to be sung by the people of God in their various stages of life. And the most common category of Psalm is lament. In these songs, God's people cry out, God, what are you doing? Where are you? This is awful. The Bible doesn't counsel us to detach from suffering, because God doesn't detach, He dives in.
SPEAKER_05Another false response is moralism. When bad things happen, our natural instinct is to figure out what went wrong or who went wrong. And often we can end up blaming ourselves or blaming the sufferer when we're meant to be comforting them. That was the response of Job's friends. Job lost his children, his wealth, and his health, and his three friends were meant to comfort him in his tragedy. To begin with, they do alright. For a week they just sit with him and share the suffering in silence, but when they open their mouths, they prove themselves to be moralists. There we go. There we have it. And if you want to find out more uh about how that video ends, uh we've got a link to it in the uh comments to this uh livestream on Facebook and uh or just search it on YouTube um for our thorny questions. Yeah, it should be up there. So uh the rest of the video kinda goes through the story of Job, really, and and sort of talks about the the wrong approach to handling suffering and the right approach to handling suffering, and the wrong approach is very much um represented by uh the miserable comforters. I don't know if you've ever um come across that phrase before, miserable comforters, Job's comforters. Maybe you've you've been called a Job's comforter in the past or a miserable comforter in the past. Um that is uh not a great thing to be called. Um here's what they do. This is the best thing that they do in in Job chapter two. Uh Job's comforters, you might know the story, Job has been struck down by um illness and he's lost his kids, he's lost his wealth, he's lost his health, he's lost pretty much everything. Um and then, if that were not bad enough, then then come the friends to try to comfort him. And what's interesting is that they they do, I think, try to comfort him. In Job chapter 2, verse 11, we meet uh Job's three friends, Eliphaz the Tamanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Namathite, easy for me to say, um, heard about all the troubles that had come upon him. They set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him. They definitely want to comfort him, they definitely want to sympathize with him. And then verse 12, when they saw him from a distance, they could hardly recognize him. They began to weep aloud, and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads. Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights, no one said a word, because they saw how great his suffering was. So this is like this is the best thing they do. The best thing they do is like shut up, you know, and just sit with Job in his suffering for a whole week. Which is pro it's it's better than what we do, isn't it? You know, when someone's suffering, we tend to kind of we tend to want to fix them like pretty quickly, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think often there's that. Or the other one is well, I mean I find personally, like, if I notice something bad has happened to someone, like and you see them sometimes you're like, oh do I do I bring it up? Right. Like and you think, is it better not to mention it, like unless they mention it? Like do they want me dredging this up? Like and you just you're kind of like almost you pretend like nothing's happened, you're like, Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_04And that's a difficult thing as well. But I mean the interesting thing about the um Job's comforters there, isn't it, is that they their intentions are good. But I mean when you it's good to have that in mind, isn't it? Because when you read the bits about what they say to him afterwards, you can't help but think, well, these guys are just complete jerks. Yeah. And and you wouldn't think their intentions are good from what they're saying, because they sound like awful human beings. Yeah. But the reality is, you know, we probably sound exactly like that when we think we've got good intentions, but we just spurt, you know, spurt out the kind of most ridiculous, right, unhelpful things. Right. Uh just like they do. Yeah. Well, surely, you know, bad things don't happen unless you've done something wrong, right? Like I mean, I hope none of us would say that um quite as um you know bluntly and out like that.
SPEAKER_05But I'm sure we kind of I think this is this is in the Bible because this is our temptation. And I think, you know, we're these guys, they are friends, they're trying to sympathize, they're trying to comfort, but I think their theology means they can't actually offer the comfort that Jobs needs. But their theology is pretty much the kind of what goes around comes around theology, which is which, you know, although karma is not a Christian doctrine, it is it is pretty it's pretty common, especially when I suffer. I'm I'm instantly thinking, what did I do to deserve this? Let's go back. Was it was it, you know, that naughty thing that I did when I was seventeen? Is this why this is happening to me now? Yep. And even if I'm not a horrible moralist with you, I'm I probably am a horrible moralist with myself. Um which is bad enough. But then, yeah, let's let's get a flavour for some of the things that Job's friends say. So um Eliphaz the Tamanite in Job four verse seven says, Consider now, Job, who being ins innocent has ever perished? Where were the upright ever destroyed? You know, which is very you know, just live a clean living life and you know you'll be surely if you're good, nothing this stuff wouldn't happen. Yeah. And therefore, if something bad's happening, Yeah. Have a think, Job. You do the math. Go back through your your week. Yeah, exactly. See what's happened. And Job's responses just tend to be like just long, long speeches about no, I I haven't done anything specifically to merit this suffering. Like, I I don't think he's saying that he's like absolutely pure, but he's saying, you know, there's nothing that I've done that's brought on this suffering. I really am suffering and and I really am upright. Um but you know, Bill Dad the Shoe Heights, uh, he comes back with, How long will you say such things? Your words are a blustering wind. Does God pervert justice? Does the Almighty pervert what is right? When your children sinned against him, he gave them over to the penalty of their sin. Like Wow.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Can you imagine can you imagine today saying to someone like who had lost someone in their family well probably because they did something wrong. Yeah. They were, you know. You know, you just staggering, isn't it? Yeah. You just wouldn't say it, would you?
SPEAKER_05We know not to do that in this really stark case. But I do felt like like people you know, oh my you know, my cousin got lung cancer, or have they been a lifelong smoker instantly? You know, brought it on themselves, right? It's that kind of thing, isn't it? You know. And statistically, there is, you know, correlation, but yeah, to go instantly to what what is the bad thing. And I think the reason why we want to believe in karma is that if bad people have earned their badness, then all I need to do to like save myself from suffering is I just need to do the right things. I just need to live life in in as good a way as I can, and then bad things can't happen to me, right? You know, and like Job Job is here to say, no, bad things can definitely happen to you, even if you're upright, you know, like Job. Um oh man, here is um here's Zophar the Namathite. Um man. He he he he talks about all you know, all these bad people, you know, to whom bad things happen, and then he says, uh Job chapter eleven, verse thirteen, Yet Job, if you devote your heart to him and stretch out your hands to him, if you put away the sin that is in your hand and allow no evil to dwell in your tent, then you will lift up your face without shame, you will stand firm and without fear. You will surely forget your trouble, recalling it only only as water's gone by. Life will be brighter than noonday, and darkness will become like morning. And it's all this, you know. Just redouble your efforts, Jo willpower. Yeah, knuckle down. Knuckle down, pull it together. A bit more delayed gratification, Job, and and out you'll come. And and that's when I love Job chapter twelve is that's it's his response to to Zophar there. Job replied, Doubtless you're the people, and wisdom will die with you. Which is just it's biblically warranted sarcasm. I think Job is probably the most sarcastic book. Like Job gets sarcastic, you know, wisdom will die with you guys. Because then the Lord shows up, doesn't he, at the end, and he's like, So where were you, Job, when I stretched out the heavens? Where were you when I created heaven and earth? You know? Tell me if you know. Sarcasm is godly.
SPEAKER_04We've uh got a uh comment who was just saying how surely people wouldn't say these kind of things today. And actually, comment here from Steve Bockwell, Christians still do it. A friend of ours was experiencing infertility, they were asked, Are there any Masons in your family? Man. And you just kind of think, Wow, like Yep. Yep. What'd you even say to that? Yeah, what's your first response, apart from you know, clocking them round the heads? You know, that would you be like, What are you? Yeah, yeah. The mind boggles.
SPEAKER_05Maybe maybe some Masonic influence of violence has been clearly. Amy Dawson says we have the prime example of suffering happening to someone sinless in the cross. Jesus has broken the link between sin and being on the receiv and being on the receiving end of suffering.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05There you go. Yeah, at the centre of our faith is an innocent who is suffering, which totally upends karma. Totally upends it. Um so we we know the wrong thing to do. We know we know that we are not to come in with the rules that will keep you safe from suffering. And yet we always do it. You know, I remember being in a um a home group Bible study, and there was a woman in her 70s who was saying, Please pray for me, I suffer with insomnia. And and before she could finish the sentence, we were like, Have you tried a drop of lavender on your pillow? Have you tried long walks by the seafront before night? Have you tried Test Match Special? Have you tried, you know, have you tried the shipping forecast? And and literally for 15 minutes we were like, you know, giving her like all these homespun, all this homespun wisdom. And then like she was then, after 15 minutes, able to finish the sentence. She said, Yeah, I have been suffering with this for 50 years. I've tried all those things. What I was gonna say is, can you pray with me that I will use that time at night prayerfully, um, and and not just fritter it away. I just I you know I I want to draw nearer to God in the midst of my struggles with sleeplessness. Like, oh, that's different. You know, we just wanted to fix her. Um She wanted to kind of draw nearer to God in suffering. Which which is very interesting. Um I thought of um uh in one sense a hilarious, in another sense a a tragic clip um uh about this whole issue of miserable comforters. Um there's there's this guy, I forget his last name, Chris Somebody. Sans, I think it was, or I think it was something like that one. Um who suffered with hiccups for years and um couldn't solve them. And at at this stage, when he goes on to BBC Breakfast, um he's been years without a cure for hiccups, and every few seconds he's hiccup. Can you imagine? Every few seconds he can't sleep right, he can't eat right. And uh let's just see what happens when he goes on national television and tells the world his problems.
SPEAKER_01Chris has been hiccuping, I think, every second since you've sat down.
SPEAKER_02Well yeah, yeah, I have. I've been hiccuping every second since I woke up at whatever nine time this morning.
SPEAKER_01And this has been going on for nearly two years?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, since uh February 2007. It's been pretty much every day. And had you had bouts of this, like long bouts of hiccups before or was it Well, I I got a a two-week bout in September 2006, completely randomly out nowhere. Uh hiccups two weeks, and they stopped on their own, and then they came back four months later in February. And it's just happened ever since.
SPEAKER_01You're a bit you're you're a bit thin if I can say, Chris. Have you have you been literally I mean, it must be hard to keep food down. Yeah. Have you lost weight?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've lost I've lost weight, and I've not been keeping any food down recently, so uh doctors have been prescribing me on um nutrient drinks so I can just have liquid food.
SPEAKER_03And they can't find a solution to your problem. Because the hiccups are when is it when your diaphragm gets the uh the wrong way?
SPEAKER_02Your diaphragm goes in kind of spasm. They don't they don't doctors don't even really know what the hiccups are. They know it's an irritation of the diaphragm and they know it's a a spasm and things, but it's they don't know why we hiccup at all in.
SPEAKER_03Have you tried all the business of sticking your fingers in your ears and shutting your nose and drinking it at the wrong side of the You wouldn't believe the amount of ways I've I've drunk water.
SPEAKER_02I've dr I must have drunk every different you could drink water. There's no other way you can drink water that I haven't tried.
SPEAKER_03Jennifer says, drink hot milk sprinkled with white pepper. Have you tried that? No, I haven't tried that. Alright.
SPEAKER_01Sugar is another one. Take it, take it. I've tried a teaspoon of sugar. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Haley Newcastle.
SPEAKER_03Haley Newcastle says, Hold your breath. Well, obviously we've done that. Counter-60 really quickly and then swallow.
SPEAKER_02I've I've held my breath and swallowed, and there's been other tactics where you you hold your breath and then you s swallow and then you try and take more air in and don't let it out and keep on swallowing.
SPEAKER_01How do you sleep?
SPEAKER_02Uh you don't generally. I have I had about an hour's sleep last night just from getting so tired that I just passed out.
SPEAKER_01So when we we were talking about you thinking of resorting to surgery, because that's the only thing because if you're not eating and you're not sleeping, you are going to get very sick.
SPEAKER_02The thing is, the thing is the surger surgery, all the surgery's going to do is is allow me to keep my food down and stop me from getting any kind of heartburn. The surgery will not stop the hiccups. So it's a it's a case of just getting surgery to make my life a little a little more comfortable rather than cure me.
SPEAKER_03Oh crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's but I mean without I think without without the kind of media attention and then the the word getting out, then the amount of like public support people have given me, and especially our family and friends, and um, which haven't kicked me out yet, but have you tried uh drinking water out out of the wrong side of the cup?
SPEAKER_04You can't watch it, can you? It must be horrific what he's going through. Right. And they're like, oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Haley from Newcastle asks, have you tried milk with white pepper? Was that one of the yeah. He hadn't tried that, so maybe maybe that's what and then of the you know, just hold your breath, count to 60 really quick, and you just swallow.
SPEAKER_04Like I think it possibly you know, you expect him to go, oh yeah, well, I've been counting at a moderate pace, and that's probably Oh man, if I'd only known that, like we are rubbish, aren't we? It's just awful to watch.
SPEAKER_05But I can yeah. But the thing is I can see myself, you know.
SPEAKER_04Well, you because you you again you it's the natural desire in us to I think but maybe it's a man thing as well, is you want to fix a problem. If there's a problem, you think, well, why don't we just find a solution? Right. So have you tried this? Have you tried that, you know, holding your breath or peppered milk or whatever it is.
SPEAKER_05But what what was interesting about this story is that um there was a Japanese surgeon, I think this is right, he was he was flying through Heathrow and he happened to be watching this this program while Chris is talking about his hiccups, and he was a brain surgeon, and he thought, Oh, I wonder if and then he got in touch with Chris and he flew Chris out to uh Japan to have an MRI, and it as it turns out, there was some kind of tumour pressing on it, it was benign, but it was pressing on some part of his brain, and that was causing the spasms. Yeah. And so he had to go under the knife, and it was this very radical, drastic surgery, but that is what actually you know fixed it. So the problem, yeah. You know, and I I just think you know, you know, maybe there's one person who does know the answer, and maybe they've got a drastic solution, but everyone else should just not render in Bristol. Haley from Newcastle says, Forget the brain surgery.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but you realize when you see that, I mean obviously it we you know, obviously it was a horrific experience for him. You you realise how I I mean when we watched that clip earlier, I said it would have taken everything in me just to be like, Are you if I was sitting there as him and be like, Are you taking a mick? Like, are you seriously asking me these questions right now? Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, you'd be fuming, wouldn't you? Diane Murray um has written, Look, poor man, referring to Chris, when a family member was struggling with mental health issues, I was advised to consider dairy intolerance as the issue, amongst many other remedies. Um it was all meant well, but it's so hard to be on the end of. The worst thing is that I find myself doing the same thing to others now. I have to stop myself from trying to fix it, even having been on the receiving end. Yeah, so true. So true. Especially because like if you've come through something, and then you you feel like, oh, someone else is going through that same thing, that their fix will be the same as your fix. And so actually, you know, that thing that the the comforters did with Job and actually sit with him for a week, that's extraordinary. Yeah. Um and it's really healing. You know, I remember when when Emma was um really bad with anorexia, and um we were going to all sorts of um uh medical help and psychiatric help and this side of the pond, America as well, and no one was seeming to help. And and then um there was actually a a a couple at the Bible college where we were, and um it was actually Mike and Heather Ovie, uh Mike who tragically died uh at the beginning of last year um quite suddenly. Um they were amazing, and they they just said, We don't understand what's going on, um, but why not every Monday night you come over to our place and you just talk us through what's happening and we'll just listen and you can teach us because we don't know about it. So you just teach us, you tell us what's going on in your lives, and we'll pray. And that's what we did, and and that was the most helpful thing of all, because they didn't try and fix things, they didn't try and pretend to any knowledge that they didn't have, but they j they weren't threatened by a problem that they didn't have the answer to.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then when we prayed about it, I guess they were they were modelling to us faith in a God who does have the answer, even if we don't. And that was that was just hugely healing. But and I think it's the it's the opposite of the Job's comforter thing. It's it's to listen, not to be threatened by the the problem, and then to maybe take it to God together.
SPEAKER_04I think that's so I mean I guess uh you know, one of the things we talked about there is is in from the videos is moralism. Yeah. We haven't touched much on the first one, we talked about the stoicism. Yes. Maybe less of a fix-it mentality, but just a kind of well we grin and bear it mentality and put on a brave face. And I wonder whether I'd be interested to know whether that how cultural that is. Because you we talk about the kind of British stiff upper lip and whatnot, and I don't know I don't know what the Australian culture's like.
SPEAKER_05I mean Australian males are pretty much let's let's not talk about the problems and no worries, mate, no worries, no worries.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And I wonder whether I just wonder whether that's the same in other countries where perhaps people, but men as well, are maybe more expressionate about stuff. Um I find myself saying all the time, like, oh you know, you're getting by, not bad, you know, it's it's worse things happen at sea. Yeah, yeah, I've had worse, you know, yeah, all that stuff. Um, so you just like, well I'll just Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So what would it look like to resist both moralism and stoicism? And I think it yeah. It would mean you know, I you can't get into a conversation with every person who asks you how you are. Well well, let me tell you about the test results, you know. It's the postman. Okay, the postman's got around to do. You know, so there's a time and a place for it, but I I think we do need to be less dismissive of the stuff that we're going through and and kind of less stoic in in our responses. And I think suffering teaches us that, you know, because when you really go through something like what Job's going through, how do you finish the sentence? You know, I've just lost all my kids, I've lost everything. Still, worse things happen at sea, you know. Lightning doesn't strike twice, and you know, count your blessings. Um what do you how do you finish a sentence when you when it's kind of like you know, so there were there's a good friend of ours um who has a degenerative disease that just unless there's a an incredible miracle unheard of in the history of humanity, they will just get worse and worse and worse and die. And that's it. And that you know, and and yet you know they they talk about the the struggle of coming every Sunday and people saying, and so how's it going? And uh any any developments? And you know, they they have confessed to us they feel very tempted to say, Oh yeah, yeah, degenerating onwards. Any developments? Yep, much worse. Much, much worse, you know. Yeah. So how do you how do you finish a sentence when you're like, I've got a d degenerative fatal illness, you know? Um Tim Keller tells a story of a of a woman in his congregation who she she did have stage stage four. Cancer, she had young kids. And when people said, How are things going? She said, Well, still still got cancer, but nothing a resurrection won't fix. Yeah. Which is quite good, actually.
SPEAKER_04I think that's that's kind of Do you think because we mentioned briefly, I think, in in the video, didn't we, that when you look at the Psalms, there's like 150 songs, and actually there's a large portion which are laments. Yes. Do you think we've lost that kind of that category in our well just generally, but in in our singing and stuff particularly, like we don't really worship kind of leader at our church, a music director, she was talking about she has to speak at some. I can't know if she's done it already or whether she has to in the future speak at something about this category of laments. You know, because we just don't we just don't really have it anymore. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um We've got Matt Redman, you give and take away, you give and take away, you know. Yeah. Which is from Job, Job Walker. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. But literally, I've got a I've got a sermon on Psalm 88, which is the darkest of the lament psalms. And like when I do it at a church, they then ask, So what would be an appropriate you know, song to sing afterwards? And after after Matt Redman, what's the how did what's the first line? Um Blessed Be Your Name Blessed Be Your Name.
SPEAKER_04When found in the desert place.
SPEAKER_05Yes, when I walk through the wilderness. Apart from that song, I don't like the wheel. No, that is from the most I don't know what else to say.
SPEAKER_04No, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_05You know.
SPEAKER_04If anyone's got any suggestions, it'd be good to know. But yeah, maybe we are missing a trick in in that as well. Um because there is a I mean the reality is that there is a lot of people are suffering, aren't they? Yeah, so it's good for us to come and sing about good biblical truths. Um but also you know, there is this category of lament. Do you think we've lost that partly? I don't know whether is that in all Christian circles? Or do you think it's more in our circles? Because particularly in more conservative evangelical circles, we're very wary of subjective emotion type things, even though that's what a lot of the Psalms are full of. Right. Right. Um so you know, we we could s we might look at some of those songs and be like, oh, hang on, that's not everyone, that's not for everyone. Whereas we can sing these truths about Jesus and we're like, well, this is true and that's what it is, you know. And that's the kind of things you hear anyway.
SPEAKER_05Do you think that's part of it, or do we just Yeah, well, I I think at at very conservative kind of psalm-singing churches, obviously this isn't a problem, because they just sing the psalms and uh and God's hymn book happens to have about fifty laments you know out of 150, which is sobering. Um It's interesting. Christopher Ash did a sermon series on Job, which was then turned into a very good book um on Job, uh something about the storm. Uh if someone remembers the name, you can tell me in comments. Um what was interesting to me, um, I did some work on Job a few years ago and listened through to his sermon series, and there were a couple of Sundays where they did not sing at all. Because he was going through the middle chapters of Job and just the suffering that Job was going through, and he just said, We just don't have the songs to sing that could possibly reflect the material which is jar too much to get up and sing something else. So if you're a if you're a worship you know, singer or a a musician, there's a gap in the market. Let's uh let's have some more lament. Um Gail Denise um writes, I've nearly I've lost nearly all my family, but God is still in control. Um she says a friend has lost a husband and two daughters to cancer, but she knows where they are, so can keep going. And then she says, Focus on Jesus. Uh and I think that that brings us to what is I don't want to say the answer to suffering, uh, but what's the response? Where do we turn? We don't turn to stoicism, we don't turn to moralism. Um and in the video we talk about uh Job chapter 16, where Job, at the beginning of the chapter, he calls them all miserable comforters. Uh but then from verse 19, uh he talks about a real friend in suffering. And he says, Even now my witness is in heaven, my advocate is on high, my intercessor is my friend as my eyes pour out tears to God. On behalf of a man he pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend. And just just four beautiful names for Christ here. A witness who sees what's going on, an advocate who sticks up for us, an intercessor who prays for us when we can't pray for ourselves, and a friend who knows us and loves us and will see us through. I just think that's a that's a beautiful a beautiful thing that in the middle of Job, you know, he he asks the why question twenty times, like twenty times he asks God, why is this happening? He never gets an answer.
SPEAKER_07Yep.
SPEAKER_05He never gets the specific well. Actually the reader knows why. The reader in chapters one and two, you know, the curtain is drawn back and we see what had happened in the heavenly realms that meant that he suffered. Job doesn't know that. He asks 20 times, he doesn't get a reason for why he's suffering, but he does get a friend, you know, in the middle of that darkness. So there's a there's a friend who meets you in the middle of the darkness. And then in Job 19, um, wonderfully, there's also a hope beyond suffering. And again, this is this is what we need a hope beyond suffering. Verse 25. Job 19, verse 25. I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. I myself will see him with my own eyes, I and not another, how my heart yearns within me. And again, this is such an embodied hope. You know, it's it's the Redeemer lives, you know, not the replacer. It's not that it's not that Jesus is gonna replace all this suffering world, put that in the bin, and then start afresh. He's gonna redeem you know, even the suffering that we go through. He's gonna actually, you know, his own scars he keeps into eternity, and he somehow redeems those. And then, you know, he's gonna stand upon the earth. Isn't that beautiful to know that there's this embodied earthly future, resurrection future? Verse 26, after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. You know, so that those that we've lost, that we love, that love Christ, we're we're gonna be reunited with him, we're gonna hold them. You know, not just see them, we're gonna hold them. And then we will see God. You know, that's the that's the centre of our vision for the future. Um God Himself who we will see. And there is that face-to-face future coming. And I I think you know, we can we can ask our why questions, and and Job asks his why questions, the psalmist is always asking his why questions, and that's okay. Um we probably won't get an answer to why X, Y, and Z happened, but we do get a friend in the middle of the suffering, and we do get future uh a future that is beyond that suffering. Um I guess that's that's all we can have, really. Um and then I love uh Job. Where is it? Um I wrote down the verse. Uh Job 36, 16. Isn't this a this is a beautiful kind of summary of the the whole of what God is doing? What is God doing in the midst of suffering? He is wooing you from the jaws of distress to a spacious place free from restriction, to the comfort of your table laden with choice uh f uh choice food. He is wooing you from the jaws of distress, and he's bringing you through that that journey, and and it will involve suffering, because it did for Jesus. But through it we have a friend, and beyond it we have we have a future.
SPEAKER_04So Yeah. There's uh a few bits in the comments, a few people have mentioned I was thinking Diane Murray's mentioned uh God is good all the time, all the time God is good. I don't know if that's a reference to a specific song, but she mentions Christ Alone Cornerstone. Right, yeah, that is good. The one that came to mind to me actually as I was looking at that was um there was an old there was a Tim Hughes one which um When Silence Falls, um I think that was named the album, but it was on there as well. Um I've had questions without answers, I've known sorrow, I've known pain. Okay. But there's one thing I'll cling to um Jesus, you know, you're faithful, you're true. Um and actually that's that's nearer the end of lamenting, just saying actually stuff is pretty bad, but I cling to you in the midst of this. Yeah. Um a few bits here as well. I mean, I think we've got someone uh uh Darren Hill. When I was going through a time of suffering, I was given this comment God will only let you suffer what you can handle and no more. This was told to me after I lost my father-in-law to a stage four brain tumour. To me, that was a cop-out. Yeah. And I th I think there's a danger, isn't there? Like even when we kind of just drop it there's a danger of dropping almost trite Christian right niceties at people.
SPEAKER_05And it's false. You know, it God does give you more than you can handle. Like he does. What people are kind of misquoting when they when they make that comment is 1 Corinthians chapter 10. That's about temptation. It's about temptation, exactly. 1 Corinthians 10, verse 13, God is faithful, he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but when you are tempted, he will also pr provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. You know, that's that's about you know, whenever you fall for sin, like you didn't have to, right? You you could have had a way out, and that's uh it's about temptation, and and he doesn't tempt you beyond what you can bear. Um it's got nothing to do with giving you suffering beyond what you can bear. You know, Paul, again and again, like in 2 Corinthians, for instance, you know, talks about having suffering that is far more than he can bear. And and and you know, when you look at Jesus in Gethsemane, you know, can you imagine Peter going up to him, Don't worry, Jesus, you know, God will not give you more than you can bear. And you know, it's you know the cup of cup of suffering for Thank goodness isn't too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you could summarize what he says in Gethsemane as this is too much. I can't I cannot handle this, I'm overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.
SPEAKER_04Um I think I think the you know, we talk about we can ask the why questions. I think there's there's different types of why, isn't there? There's the there's the why questions which you know, why this specific thing, you know, why has this event happened to me in particular? And actually that's not something I think we can really know. No. Um but there is the case, you know, there is those those things of cleaning to be bought, you know, if I really trust that God is working for my good in all things, um then it forces me in suffering to think what you know, I might you might not be able to see it yet. I I I think I've talked about suffering in the past, it's a bit like um uh obviously all flawed examples, but it's those money paintings, you know, when you're up close to a money painting, yeah, it's just a blur and a mess, it doesn't make any sense, and actually it's only when you're able to draw back from it you can see the big picture. And the reality is that obviously God can see that big picture, and we may get a bigger glimpse of it over time that we may be able to look back over some events in our lives that where bad things have happened and say, I can see how God has used that for you know to to grow me, to deepen my relationship with him, or to help others in later situations, but it also might be the reality that we will never see that big picture until at least the other side of eternity, perhaps, you know. Yeah. Um I wonder whether you know, so it's okay to ask why we just might never get that specific, but we can trust hopefully that God is good and is working in that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um at the end of the the seminar that I gave at this um festival, the seminar was all about how can a good God allow a bad world, and that's where Jenny came along and and and she became a Christian um after that. But there was another guy who came up to me afterwards and he said, Is it ever right um when someone asks you why does suffering happen, just to say, I don't know. Sure. I just don't know. Um and actually I think there's something very profound about that. There's something very profound. If yeah, if you just if you model to the other person, this doesn't shake my faith, but no, I don't know why suffering happens. Somehow, somehow there's a good God and this really sucks, and both those things are really true. I have no idea how. And I just wonder whether actually a community of believers, the church, that actually is able to have some kind of spiritual buoyancy in the midst of suffering. I just think that's an incredible apologetic to the world without having answers, without having a technical apologetic. I think just the actual existence of Christians who are not they don't drown in suffering. And I think that is what 1 Peter is talking about. You know, 1 Peter is talking about aliens and strangers in the world, and and people ask in 1 Peter 3, verse 15, what's the reason for the hope that you have? And I and and obviously people are looking at believers who are going through horrible, horrible times, and you when you read in 1 Peter, they're getting it from all angles, they're getting it from, you know, the Emperor, they're getting it from from kings and authorities, they're getting it from slave masters, they're they're having difficult times everywhere. And yet somehow they seem to have a hope. And and so I think when someone asks, you know, what's the reason for the hope that is within you? I think actually the most basic thing is I I don't know how I would have gotten through last year without Jesus. I don't know. I don't know why it's happened. I don't know how I've gotten through, but Jesus somehow sustains me. And I think that is just a really powerful apologetic. I think it's actually the original apologetic. That's where we get the word apologetics from. 1 Peter 3 verse 15, that the answer that we give to someone who's asking us for the reason for the hope that is in us. I you know, it's apologetics has come to mean learning a slew of philosophical arguments. But I I think actually a suffering community of believers who s still are clinging onto Christ and suffering well and having some kind of sense of of emotional buoyancy in the midst of it. Or even not having emotional buoyancy, even just saying this really sucks, but but still I'm a I'm a believer. Somehow God's getting me through this. I think that's an incredible apologetic. Like, and you don't have to go to a seminar, you know, to but it's hard won. It's hard won. You've got to know the faithfulness of God through the storms.
SPEAKER_04Um I think the you know, when I think of how we respond to suffering, uh the the example that always comes to mind for me is um Jesus with Mary and Martha at Lazarus' tomb. Yeah. How basically they both come and ask, you know, literally the same question. Or it's not really a qu is it they say it's if you were my brother would have died. And I've always, when I've talked about it, I've said, to me it feels a bit like a an accusation, like where were you? Like, why did you let this happen? You could have stopped this, but you didn't. Um and Jesus has even though the question is identical, he responds very differently to both. And the first, you know, to uh Martha, isn't it? I think isn't Martha or Martha gets the and the resurrection of the life. Yeah, yeah, so he you know, and then with Mary he weeps. Jesus wept. And I think there's no pat answer to you know, it's like this it's not when people say how do you answer the suffering question? Well, there isn't really a answer. And I mean we've just I mean even with doing four videos on it, yeah, we're not saying like here are four answers and you trot them out in whichever order you know, every you know some people just need someone to s sit with them for a week, like you know, um, or to weep with them. Other people do need to hear, you know, those biblical truths to kind of gird them up and you know strengthen them to keep going. Um but I think in a sense you have to you have to sit with each person individually on that, don't you?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And just to have the confidence that I don't need to know the answer and I don't need to give the answer in this moment, but I can entrust that to Jesus, who is the God who has suffered. Um and I don't know how it all fits together, but I I look to the cross and I see a God who has suffered, and I look to the resurrection, I see a God who's got a future beyond suffering. And I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but but somehow he's gonna get us through. And I think whatever we can communicate of that simple faith, I think, is the most powerful apologetic we can give. Hey, it's two o'clock. Back to work, people. Back to work. Uh enough sloping off to Facebook. Um it's been great being with you guys. Uh we um have a great week ahead. I'm doing a couple of interviews that um hopefully you'll see soon. Um tomorrow I'm doing an interview with Scott Jones um about my upcoming book, Long Story Short, and then on Thursday I'm doing an interview with Andrew Wilson um about uh he and um uh oh, his name has escaped me. Um from Durham and Alistair Roberts. Uh they've written a book called Echoes of Echoes of Exodus, uh, a terrific book, and I'll be talking to him about Echoes of Exodus on Thursday, and stay tuned, we'll uh be broadcasting that uh interview uh on the live cast in the future. But uh I think that's all we've got time for. I think so.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, kept these people far too long already. Far too long.
SPEAKER_05Far too long. So have a great week, everybody, and uh see you again. Take care.