The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. In his Royal Wedding sermon, Michael Currier said some brilliant things and he left out some vital things. To show you both, I thought I'd re-preach his using mostly his words, but also inserting what I think would need to be said if we're going to call this a gospel sermon. I can't promise his delivery, but I can promise that I'll six to six minutes. Are you ready? Here we go. And now in the name of our loving, liberating, and life-giving God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen. From the Song of Solomon in the Old Testament, set me as a seal upon your heart, a seal upon your arm. For love is strong as death, passion fierce as the grave. Its flashes are flashes of fire, the very flame of the Lord. And from the New Testament, dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God because God is love. There's power in love. Don't underestimate it, don't oversentimentalize it. There's power in love. If you don't believe me, think about a time when you first fell in love. The whole world seemed to center around you and your beloved. Just look at today. Two young people fell in love, and we all showed up. Why? The reason has to do with the source. We were made by a power of love, and our lives are made to be lived in that love. Ultimately, the source of love is God Himself, the source of all our own lives, a father who loves his son in the fire of the Holy Spirit. That's why Solomon says, love is the very flame of the Lord. When love showed up in the flesh, he was asked by a lawyer to sum up the essence of all the holy teachings that came before. Jesus reached back into the Hebrew scriptures to Deuteronomy and Leviticus and said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. This is the first and great commandment. And the second, love your neighbor as yourself. According to Jesus, everything that God has been trying to tell the world is love God and love your neighbors. And when love came in person, he began the most revolutionary movement in human history, all grounded in the unconditioned, unconditional love of God for the world. It's a love move to the old slaves in America's antebellum self to sing. There is a bomb in Gilead to heal the sin-sick soul. And one of the stanzas actually explains why. They said, if you cannot preach like Peter and you cannot pray like Paul, you just tell the love of Jesus how he died to save us all. Oh, that's the bomb in Gilead. This way of love. It is the way of life. They got it. He died to save us all. You see, we need saving from our lovelessness and our unloveliness. Megan and Harriet, you'll be finding it easy to look at today dressed up and find us. Looking like a fairy tale made flesh. But there will come days when it will be hard to love when your hearts will be revealed to be loveless, dark, and broken. On a day like today, it's hard to believe it, but there will come times when you will fight and it'll feel like hell. Because twisted love, perverted love, corrupted love, that is hell. It's the kind of hell that tears apart marriages and families and nations and souls. And it needs to be quenched, or it will continue to burn. That's hell. What does it take to quench those flames? Well, you'll know if you've ever been in a lover's quarrel. One of you, at least one of you, needs to swallow your pride, to not lash back, to absorb the fire and not dish it out, to begin again in forgiving love. I pray for that kind of love to be present in your marriage. But I warn you, everyone who's ever trained it knows it's excruciating, it's a sacrifice. But that's what it takes to turn hell into heaven. It takes an excruciating act of forgiving love. And our New Testament passage says that on a cosmic scale, that's what God has done for us. This is love, it says, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. On the cross, Jesus was the lover who swallowed his pride. He was in the right, but he didn't claim his rights. We were in the wrong, but he didn't pay back. He absorbed the hell and didn't dish it out. That's why Jesus died. It was a sacrifice, the sacrifice of forgiving love. And you know he didn't die for anything he could get out of it. Jesus did not get an honorary doctorate for dying. He gave up his life. He sacrificed his love for us, his life for us. And so our New Testament passage goes on. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. We ought to receive the forgiving love of God offered in Jesus and pass it on to a world which desperately needs the redeeming power of love. It's the love that comes from God, the love offered at the cross of Jesus, the love that is shared with a loveless and unlovely world. This reconciling, redeeming love that begins in God will transform your soul, transform your marriage, transform your world. Friends, we all want to believe in love. And when we look to this royal, it almost makes us believe the fairy tale is true, doesn't it? I mean, almost. We could we could almost forget the darkness of the world and the darkness of our hearts and believe again, couldn't we? Well, I'm here to tell you the fairy tale is true. Love is real, more real than you know. There is a Prince of Heaven who has loved us, fought to the death for us, forgiven our lovelessness, and now he offers the power to live in love. This is the power on which to found every marriage. The power to redeem the world. It suffered is God, and his arms are open today. Meghan, Harry, God love you, God bless you, and may we all find rest in those arms of Almighty love. That's what I'd say, using mainly Michael Carrie words where I was holding on to the cup and then filling in the blanks as I see them. Two thoughts on this exercise. Some of the words that Carrie did say were extraordinary, especially when people were just expecting a bishop to shuffle on and shuffle off, having mouthed a few platitudes. Carrie did not do that, and he gripped a global audience with some glorious truths. When Christians rejoice to hear those truths, we can understand it, and we should assume that it is their love for Jesus that drives them. At the same time, there were other words Carrie would need to say if this was going to be a gospel sermon, a sermon proclaiming Christ given for sinners. In the live cast, we will discuss the overlapping contexts of Carrie's sermon. It is a church service, and it is a civic ceremony, and it is a global television event. So the rules and expectations are not straightforward. But if what we were expecting was a law and gospel proclam proclamation, then we did not get that last Saturday. The sermon began extremely biblically and theologically and Christ-centeredly, but it did then fly off largely untettered and could be confused at points with a Beatles-like oath to love, love, love. So when Christians become deeply concerned that the second half of Curry's sermon will be the take-home message, and that a rhapsody on love is being understood as the gospel, we can understand that, and we could assume we can assume that for those Christians it is their love of Jesus that drives them. Curry's sermon has been and gone, but the words of one John remain let love, let the love of Jesus drive us. Dear friends, let's love one another, for love comes from God. It's May 2029, this is the weekline, and you're watching the live cast.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Live Cast, Live Cast, Live Cast, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Right, so we're on. What were we even talking about? Camping is bad, according to you. I like camping. Camping's fine.
SPEAKER_01So I was just saying that I've come back from uh the Catalyst Festival, where uh I was preaching and doing a seminar and speaking to some youth, and Emma was doing a seminar as well. And uh that was um that was great, and we'll we'll talk about that in a bit. But yeah, it was very much a camping holiday. And you're not down with it. I'm not down with camping, and I don't I don't know who would be down with camping. It's just fun, isn't it? Is it? Yeah. Okay, you've had some time to now think of a single benefit to camping.
SPEAKER_00Have you come up with one? Uh communing with the great outdoors. Uh with Gaia, with Mother Earth herself. What? I get Abraham, isn't it? So it's good because like so so one thing, like when I went to New Wine, yeah, like um interestingly, what I would say most people at New Wine are searching for a controversial comment of the day coming. Um people at New Wine, mo majority of people, the thing they're not they're seeking the most is not God. Oh. It is somewhere to plug their phone in. I was amazed by how many people were just like, I can't survive without my phone. Whereas, you know, we've got one of those battery pack things. Yes. So like I put my phone on like battery saver and just check it like every now and again. But like I don't do I've got no reason to be on Facebook or anything like that. And you're just like, oh, this is quite nice actually. Yeah. Cut off from you know, all those distractions. Right. Some people are just like, we can't Snapchat each other. What are we gonna do? Admitly they were teenagers, but some of the adults were very like, I've got to get my phone charged and you know You're taking this in in an interesting direction.
SPEAKER_01What are the benefits of camping? Well, it's not social media. Yeah he says on social media.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00So getting away from it all. Yeah, unplugging it all, yeah. Yeah, unplugging a lot of plugging. Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean like so when you make like do you like toast? Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. You just think toast toast all right, isn't it? Yeah. Toast all right. Toast, let me tell you, toast tastes ten times better when you've had to make it under that little grill. Wow. Because not only I think is it tastes better under a proper grill anyway, but there's a sense of satisfaction that you've achieved that same with making a cup of tea. You'd you'd just want to throw your toaster out, wouldn't you? Like how good it is. As we have done.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we've got rid of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm just yeah, I'm j I am just worried that our three-year-old will enjoy camping too much.
SPEAKER_00So it is a bit expensive though, camping. Like the initial outlay of like getting it getting a tent and all the gubbins.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But some people were like, or there was a guy last year from our church who had um I could you not a gas oven that he brought with him. Yeah. So, you know, not like just a little hob. Not like the hot clock hob, but an oven. Actually, hobs on the top. Yeah, yeah. They did pizzas. Wow. You just think, man. Yeah. That's what happens when you've got more money than glamping.
SPEAKER_01That's what we need. We need a bit of glamping. Ben Bissett says, try camping with four kids. No thanks, Ben. No, thank you. I'm always reminded of uh Jim Gaffigan's line. Like, he's uh he's a comedian in the States and he was uh he's got five kids and he was asked, like, what's it like going from four to five? Like like he says He says, Imagine that you're drowning and then someone hands you a baby. Yep. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah. And Biddy says, You were great talking last night. Thank you, Biddy. Yeah, I was uh So yeah, you're all so you your stuff from Catalyst is actually on our page somewhere, isn't it? It's on the Speak Life page. If you haven't uh liked the Speak Life page, what are you doing with yourself? Take a good look in the mirror, question your priorities, and um the Speak Life page will have that link to um yeah, my sermon on Galatians chapter four uh last night. And uh and also I mean, so one of the highlights for me was I I met a couple of different people from different churches um in the Catalyst network, and I've preached in those different churches before, and two different people from two different churches said, Um, hey, I brought a friend to a guest event that you spoke at, and they've been kind of coming to church ever since, and now like one of them's not just become a Christian, but they're they're now going out on the streets, like literally like within a matter of months. Wow. They're out there sharing sharing the good news of Jesus. Another guy said that uh a work colleague came along to a Christian uh a Christmas carols thing and and they um are now going on with the Lord. And then I was having a coffee with somebody and I'd just done a seminar on how can a good God allow a bad world.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Which is something that we've done quite a lot of, and uh you can check out on uh the Speak Life page our Thorny Questions videos, and I did a lot of that material, and she just came up to me and said, Um, sorry to interrupt, my name's Jenny. I came to this conference not as a Christian, and my big issue was how can a good God allow a bad world, and you just took away any like objection I could possibly have. I gave my life to to Christ last night, and I'm a one-day old Christian. Wow. So how fun is that?
SPEAKER_00Like this preaching thing actually works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. And it but it is interesting because like my because I'm always tempted to say, oh look, apologetics is j it, you know, it it has its place like way over in a corner somewhere. Yeah. Um but she she's kind of the um the the real test case that the apologists love in in terms of the people have a series of objections and you need to help them to get over those hurdles and once you've removed the objections. Then they go. And of course we all know it's more complicated than that, including the apologists. But for her, mm, it's pretty much her journey. Yeah. I guess that's what she'd say. What she did say. Yeah. So praise God. Praise God for Jenny. And uh and got to pray with another, you know, couple last nights who were very much on the cusp and and, you know, prayed with them for for Jesus to reveal himself to them and and there was lots of prayer going on, you know, in a room that size is you know. Yeah. Thousands. So you can check out the the sermon there on uh on our Speak Life page. Yeah. Brilliant. What have you been up to, Paul?
SPEAKER_00Well, over the bank holiday. Yeah. Um nothing of oh sorry, well, nothing of real note. I mean, well, yes, I had a very nice day yesterday with lots of friends. We just had a barbecue and people around and there were kids everywhere and paddling pools and tortoise was on the loose and all kinds of things. Tortoise was on the loose? Yeah, we my my parents-in-law have um a tortoise that we're looking after while they're away. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Um but uh Is that a needy creature?
SPEAKER_00Not really. They're a good creature. I recommend a tortoise as well as a pet. So But you the problem is you've got to remember that there's a tortoise. It's easy to yeah, yeah, because I mean so I did hear a thing I think it was my brother-in-law who had some friends, I think it was him, who who said that they they they were looking through their parents' attic and they found a tortoise shell. And when they said to their mum and dad, We found this in the attic, mum and dad said, Oh yeah, we did have a tortoise. It's just that you know, when you put them in hibernation for like half a year, you just get it from your mind, doesn't it? So you think we've been up there for a while, and you think, What a way to go. Um but you know, but How many kids do we have again? But yeah, this tortoise, Carmen, is her name. Carmen Carmen the Tortoise. She's uh they're quite quick actually. But anyway, a lot of maintenance, yeah, I don't have to do a lot. But yeah, I d you know, that was pretty much what I did yesterday. Do the kids like them? Oh yeah, yeah, they were very excited about the tortoise and picking up the tortoise and whatnot. So do you think other animals would play well with the tortoise?
SPEAKER_01Like maybe not.
SPEAKER_00I don't really know. I've not really seen much tortoise kind of and other animal interaction anywhere, really. I'm not sure how they interact in the wild.
SPEAKER_01I guess I've I've been put off having a tortoise because I had a good friend at school and um and he was just in pieces one day because his mother had pierced the tortoise with a high heel.
SPEAKER_00No. All the way through. No. Man. These are like tortoise horror. Are there any tortoises listening? Oh, they've got tortoise horror stories, isn't it? Does anyone online have a tortoise horror story that you'd like to share with us? Um, but yeah. So I mean it wasn't an event for Oh, I preached, actually. Yeah, and that yeah, I preached on Friday night. I have a very short moment. This is why I can't keep the tortoise, because I would forget. Yes. You know, so we just look after it. I preached on Friday night on um on Philippians two five to eleven. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Um and that's a Carmen as well. It's Carmen Christi. It's uh the Carmen means means him. So you called your tortoise him, and then you preached on the Carmen Christi. Anyway. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Great segue, glad you know. Yeah, well done. Uh yeah, so we're part of a series on the Trinity, actually. We're doing it our cafe church on Friday night, and so this was more looking at the side. Actually, I I think I redid, I used something I'd used in an assembly at a secondary school a few years ago. I know when I say I reused it, I re-jigged it quite a bit. Um But uh I I thought initially about I used the this scenes from um the Avengers Assemble with Loki as the God who comes to bring you the gift of freed he come to free you from freedom and you kneel before me, you crave subjugation, and you know, all that kind of stuff. And I said, you know, what is God like? Right. Um, what is the nature of God? And this is Josh Weddon's view of God, yeah, you know, the humanist here he is, and this you know, God is this who's the bad guy here? God comes to earth to subjugate and to oppress um and to hold on to power, to be the power god. Right. Um and uh then we talked about, you know, well, actually, what's the nature of God? It's a self-giving sacrifice, stepping down, not clinging to power, giving of self um for the sake of others. Um and actually at the end talking about even when Jesus is exalted to the highest place, even then he doesn't cling to power like some kind of obsessed ruler, because at the end of Revelation, or not the end of Revelation, in Revelation, you have Jesus inviting us onto the throne with him, not saying, get off the throne, I'm in charge. Wow. That kind of thing. Um that and tortoises. That's my weekend. Those are your two comments. That sounds great. Oh, was it recorded? Uh yeah, possibly. I mean it was, but we had a few technical issues. It's not like not like us technical issues, is it? So um yeah, I think the guy came up to me afterwards and said, um he said, Yeah, I'll I'll do something. So I've got all of it somewhere, the recording bits. He said, but at the moment it jumps from the scene about Loki, literally the the recording of that, to you just coming in going, lording it over us like that. He's like, probably not, like, just need some context. So very good.
SPEAKER_01No, I'd like to hear that. I'd like to hear that. And we might we might get into these issues as uh we speak, especially about a kind of a theology of the cross and uh what islands referendum uh kind of means. Uh we might get back to those Philippians 2 themes uh in a minute. But um I started with uh a little monologue on the wedding sermon. And if you haven't checked out uh what I said last week, um that again is in the comments section of this uh live video on Facebook. You can check out what I said last week. And this week I guess I I I tried something um a bit different, which was just to put flesh on the bones of um what would it look like to to preach a sermon that included the stuff that we like, and by we are kind of mean, gospel-loving, you could use the word evangelical, orthodox Christians. What would it what would it look like to have Michael Curry's words and the words that we love? Um and so I had a go at that. And uh maybe I'm now opening myself up to the charge that, you know, my own words are, you know, inadequate and, you know, should be rejected. But see, it seems to me on this on this issue there's this there's kind of red, amber, and green responses to Michael Curry's sermon. And I understand I understand all of them. Like I understand the red light response, which is people could definitely get the wrong idea from Michael Curry's sermon. I don't I d personally don't think he preached heresy. I don't I I I'm only going by the 13 minutes that he preached. But just looking at those thirteen minutes, I don't think he preached heresy. And if he did, and if you could convince me that he did, I'd denounce it. I would, I promise. But I don't think in those thirteen minutes he preached heresy. Um but I understand that people people can think that you could get the wrong idea from that. And if people go away thinking that the gospel is just a Beatles like love, love, love like if that is what people now assume the gospel is because of his sermon, I understand your red light, and I think it's coming from a good place, right? And so and I you know, I it doesn't make anybody a priggish Pharisee if they want to give the red light to Michael Curry's sermon. I I assume that it's coming from a place of deep love for Jesus. So yay, that and then there's there's there's the green light response, and the green light response is, hey, two billion people and he and he heralded Jesus, so let's just rejoice. And and and so you did get people who are just saying, Well, that's the gospel, and if that's not the gospel, I don't know what is. Um and I think last week I was trying to give an amber response. I think it was an amber response, because I I I you know flagged up several warnings like I don't think he should have been there. I said that three times in in my little seven-minute talk. Three times, beginning, middle, and end. I said he shouldn't have been there, and b you know, because of his stance on marriage, because of TEC, the the Episcopal Church, and it's sanctions by the Anglican Communion about marriage, and because of the way TEC has handled Bible beloving br Bible loving brothers and sisters across the pond. Um yeah, so I d I d certainly do not give a free pass to any of this. And I don't think uh I don't think the sermon words themselves um ought to be called the gospel, pure and simple. So I don't think I'm green, I don't think I'm red, I think I am kind of amber. And as amber, I think I kind of, you know, got likes from red and green people and and got dislikes from red and green people.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, I think it was pretty in terms of people's response, there was a mixture, but I mean I think a lot of people did see it as as relatively balanced. Um I think I think it was, you know, I think that's the case, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01But um And w like one thing I want to I do want to say is that the red light people are right that it is important to define what the gospel is and isn't. It I think it's that's a slightly different argument from whether this particular event was the event for preaching law and gospel in its fullest sense. I think that should be a separate argument, but if if this sermon is an occasion for us to going back to basics and thinking, what is the gospel? Um, then let's do that. Let's do that with grace and love and let's figure out what the gospel is. Um and I think it was not the gospel, I think it was the law. Um to use a a Lutheran and reformed kind of categorization. Um I don't think it was anti-gospel, I just think it was the law. I think it was love your neighbour. This love comes from God, now let's love your neighbour, and you know. So I I think it was just the law and not the gospel. Um but therefore I think therefore the challenge is not just for Michael Curry to now go on ahead and preach law and gospel. I think the challenge is for everybody. And I think our own tribe, and I identify as evangelical, in our own tribe, I think we need to go further than just the law, and we need to go further than just holding to correct doctrines. Because whatever the gospel is, or whatever proclaiming the gospel is, proclaiming the gospel is not just holding to and articulating correct doctrines. Proclaiming the gospel is offering Christ to sinners. And certainly I d I don't think Michael Curry in the fullest sense did that. Certainly, but um but if if he should have good, then we should as well. Um and and maybe maybe there's there's a few fingers pointing back at us in terms of do we preach law and gospel and offer Christ in these different settings. Um And then you know, a and then one other thing I think it's worth saying is is the question of the context of this sermon like is it a church service? Yes. Is it a civic ceremony? Yes. Is it a a global televisual event watched by billions? Yes. And those overlapping contexts are complicated. And it's not obvious. I don't think it's I don't think it's entirely obvious what the rules are for someone who is um preaching to billions on TV as well as in a chapel to some royals. Yeah. And clearly Michael Curry did not take it as an opportunity to preach to people in the chapel. If he did, if if his job was to preach to the royals, you know. The looks on some of their faces showed that he might have missed his target, right? Yep. And if he was preaching to the couple, we he barely mentioned the couple.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. Clearly he was taking this as an opportunity with a global audience, I think. And I just want I just think, you know, for myself as as a preacher, I'm the I I get, you know, brought in by churches and they will put on an event for me to speak at. And and quite often, you know, they will say, you know, evangelicals of impeccable pedigree have said to me, Glenn, don't go full on for the gospel. Just just you know, rein it in. And I and usually I don't listen to them, and usually I just preach the gospel, right? I'm that kind of guy. Red light people, hear me, I'm that kind of guy. You invite me to your church and you say, Oh, it's more of an amber event, and don't don't go fully for the gospel. I go green light on those, okay? So I don't, you know, quit the quit the hate, man. You know, I I do take those opportunities and preach the gospel. But I've I've had evangelicals of impeccable pedigree telling me, look, reign at England because it's not that kind of event. Now, if that is a a r you know, if that's an okay thing to do, um, then I think we need to think again about the context in which Michael Curry was preaching. Because yeah, it's a church service, but yeah, it's also a civic ceremony in which a bishop is just meant to shuffle on and shuffle off and mouth some platitudes. Um, and it's a global television event. Um and I just don't think the rules are that obvious for what he was meant to do. As you'll see at the top of the show, if I had that opportunity, I would pray for the courage to say those six minutes the way that I said those six minutes, and that's what I think would most honour Jesus in that setting, even though it might not be as popular as Michael Curry's sermon. That's personally what I think. But I if if there are evangelicals who are listening into Michael Curry's sermon and they go, Hey, you know, Christ is preached and I rejoice, Philippians 1 verse 18. Um, you know, I I see their heart and I honour them. I honour your heart, red light Christians, and I honour your heart, green light Christians. Can we just get along? You know?
SPEAKER_00Where's the love? Well, I think you're right there, Anyba. There is a context question. And I mean it was a very different thing to uh you know, it the the platform he was on, the occasion he was at wasn't not a it's not a Billy Graham crusade in the stadium type thing. Right. Um and we were joking earlier about how strange it would have been, you know, how amusing it would have been if he'd said, like, and if anyone wants to give their life to the Lord, so you know, they'll stand up in this room and like you know, you know, every head bow, come to the case.
SPEAKER_01Every eye closed, like just raise your hand if you want to receive Christ. Like, I see you, Your Majesty. I see you I see you, Your Grace. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Jesus.
SPEAKER_00You know, we've got a couple of little books we're gonna give you to tell you about Jesus. Yeah, you know, that that would not have been the the right time and place the time and the place for it, undoubtedly. And you know, we've talked earlier about um you know, i you would you would preach in a different way to your context, wouldn't you? Yeah you know, I I definitely would I could t I take the same passage and if I knew I was preaching to my Sunday morning congregation I think it's predominantly predominantly Christians, it's a church crowd. Right. Um I would preach the passage in a different way than I would with uh an evangelistic event or whatever. Um you know, you'd still have the same stuff, but there's a context. So like when I did assemblies in secondary schools, you know you've got a you know, you're in a sense you're playing your cards very carefully as well without wanting to you don't want to water anything down um and pull your you don't want to pull your punches, but you want to do it in a way that means you'll be invited back and Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um We all know about that. We all know that there's ways of contextualizing our our message and you know, I've I've taken many weddings and I've taken weddings where I know the couple and I know that they are Christian. And I've taken couples when I don't really know the couple and they're not Christians, and you preach a little bit differently, but you really do, you know, and and you know if they if they're known to you as a couple and if they want you to preach the gospel in a certain way, you say and I often take advantage of that. And I I say, you know, Bill and Brenda want you to know that this is just a picture of the ultimate love. Theirs is not the ultimate love. They want you to know that. They've told me to tell you that, you know. And so you can say that with a lot more freedom. That, you know, if you're if if you don't know the couple, and Michael Curry did not know the couple, and if you know, if you're flown in from across an ocean, um, you know, there there are there are different contexts. And once again, I I think politically it was it was the the wrong move to bring him into that situation. All of that. But I just, you know, I just think actually, you know, going through his words, in order to to kind of re-preach his sermon, um, it it really struck me what a sermon of two halves it was, you know. Yeah. And the first the first half, I don't think there would be any complaints from evangelicals if he sat down after after six minutes. Which was what he was meant to do, six minutes. And we would all say, well, he didn't have time to go into, you know, penal substitutionary atonement or whatever, you know. Um but those first six minutes, my goodness, he you know, he he goes from this prayer in the triune name of God's scripture, um, Jesus said, Love God and love your neighbour, then the balm of Gilead's, and like, and literally and by that stage it was about six minutes. And if he'd if he'd sat down, we would just be like, Wow. Yeah, wow. I think the the problem was the second half just sort of launched off. And and rhetorically, that that probably is what gripped people and and made people sit up and listen, but that r rhetorical flourish was was then not so tethered to the stuff that he said in the first half, and in the first half he insists a number of times that the source of love is God. Um, but then it gets untethered, and then you know, you could uncharitably think that he is just rhapsodizing about love itself. And then if people get the impression that that's the gospel, I hear you, that's a problem, but you know. Maybe stick to time, preachers. Maybe that's the Maybe that's the lesson. Maybe say. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, have we said enough? Have we said more than enough? Who knows? Let's just can we love we can we love each other? I don't think this is an occasion for splitting among Christians who love the gospel. I think there are good gospel reasons for being a red light person, and I think there are good gospel reasons for being a green light person. Um. There we go. There we go. Um in the news. Um Biddy has said the faces of the church persons behind him, exclamation mark. I know. Those faces though.
SPEAKER_00That's what makes me love it all the more, though. Is that subversive streak in me that can see the screaming and I just think uh Princess Beatrice, like is he allowed to say this?
SPEAKER_01Who authorized this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Elton John. Oh yeah. Brilliant and Victoria Beckham, but you know. Oh, I don't know. I haven't I don't think I've seen that. She didn't look very impressed, but I think that might just be where she always looks like. Yeah. David Beckham was just sniggering through the whole thing, which is. I couldn't tell whether he liked it though, do you beckon? Because he he kind of was smiling away, but whether he was Yeah. Yeah. Whether it was genuinely like, oh you just don't know what's going on, do you? Never know. In a footballer's mind.
SPEAKER_01Um Another thing, uh so have you seen this in the news? Uh there was this story about um a boy who was hanging off a balcony in Paris on like the fourth-fifth story. A toddler. A toddler.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very young.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very young. And for some reason the people who were like on that level couldn't Yeah, it was a bit unst a bit unusual, wasn't that, bringing up a strange. But this this guy, he's from Mali, a migrant to uh France. Scales the wall like a spiderman. Spider-Man, yeah. Up he goes. Yeah. Saves the toddler. And everyone in France has gone nuts for this guy, and like he's got a job as a fireman or something, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's being made a French citizen or something is worth his name.
SPEAKER_01Do you know do you know how to put out a fireman?
SPEAKER_00No, but I would hope that the They'll give him some training. I hope so. The policies are a bit more rigorous because he scales the thing with his hose in his hand. It's like, no, you can use the ladder.
SPEAKER_01It's just like, yeah, I'm sure I'm sure there is overlap between the skills of someone who can climb and someone who can put out fires, but it's like someone's really good at a Rubik's cube. Make that man a police officer. That's like okay. Um but he was also like um sort of adopted as a citizen in France, wasn't he? Um great story, and then and then David Lamy, MP, Labour MP. Um he is a Labour MP, isn't he? Surely. Yes. I think he is. And uh oh yeah, he's definitely Labour. Yeah, he's an MP. And his tweet, um should we have it up on the screen? Yeah, it's done. Here we go. This is a wonderful story, but I don't think that migrants should have to behave like superheroes before they are treated like human beings. Being a human being should be the only prerequisite to being treated like a human being. And that applies in the UK just as much as as in France, just as much as in the womb. Um, there. That's there's there's my mic drop, okay. So makes a brilliant point here, you know, like you shouldn't have to climb up and be a superhero in order to be treated like a human being.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Agreed. Let's all agree that. And now, let's turn our attention to Ireland and the referendum. Um and it seems to me that that that's the kind of the the headline under which we should see all other things. That that really, if you want to call it the pro-life position, let's call it the pro-life position. The pro life position is, in the words of David Lamy, no one should have to behave like a superhero before they are treated like a human being. Being a human being should be the only prerequisite to being treated like a human being. And that applies just as much in the womb as it does outside of it. It's exactly the logic. Um and I think what this David Lamy tweet does is it really it really shows that I think the pro-choice argument, if you want to call it that, really is underlying it, you need to climb up to a certain level before you will be treated to the same levels of hospitality and humanity that the rest of us are. You need to have a certain level of consciousness, you need to be in a certain position before we will afford to you all the rights and uh all the hospitality that we should offer to a human being. So I often find that as a as as an interesting way in and an interesting parallel in discussions about abortion, because on the whole, people who tend to be pro-choice also tend to be pro-migration, pro-immigration, right? And I just want to say, okay, let's let's use that instinct that you have. Someone should not be asked to jump through 17 hoops before you afford them hospitality. Um in the same way, you know, let's let's not let our brothers and sisters in the womb have to jump through all these hoops before we afford them the right to life. I think that's that is the basic argument. Um But on Friday there was the referme r referendum, and um uh it was about repealing or or at least amending, sorry, uh the eighth amendment uh amendment of the Irish Constitution. Um the eighth amendment in the Irish Constitution says the state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn, and with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and as far as practicable by its laws to defend and vindicate that right. So it seems to me that that is a pretty plain statement that when we're talking about um abortion, we're talking about two lives and not one. We're not just talking about one person's autonomous choice, um we're we're talking about two people. And in terms of uh repealing uh that Eighth Amendment or or amending that amendment, um what was voted yes to um uh on Friday by a ratio of two to one, people uh wanted to add, Irish people wanted to add this um amendment, which is provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies. Um and so now now the door is open to legislation um that allows for uh the termination of pregnant pregnancies without having to pass it through the filter of there are two lives here. Um So it seems to me at that point to go back to the the the migration example, uh it seems at that point that we've built a wall and we've made the fetus pay for it, right? We've built a wall and we've made the unborn pay. Um and they they have got to get over a hurdle in order to be afforded that that right. Um So legislation is not the way, I think, to to you know, to bring the kingdom. It's absolutely not the way to bring the kingdom, and um and I I really respect um those kind of pro-life ministries and charities that that say we don't want to make abortion illegal so much as to make it unthinkable. I think that's absolutely right. And I think it's it's a battle for hearts and minds, it's not a battle for the statute books. But I guess the the loss of this battle in Ireland means like we need to look at ourselves as Christians and say, how is it that we how is it that we can tell the story of Jesus again that that makes people makes people wake up to the beauty of life and the beauty of the little people, you know? It seems like such a triumph of authority and power and individuality and choice over the little guy. And it just seems to me that so many of the people who support the pro-choice cause um they also believe in in not harming the little guy and championing the little guy. How is it how do we I don't know, how do we make people love the little guy and see that it's a cause for for championing life and you know Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I wish I I wish I wish I knew. It it just yeah, it's a very hard thing to understand, uh I think, at least from my perspective. You know, the y I as I read that initial Eighth Amendment, I think, wow, that's a really affirming and good thing. You know, that seems a very to me that seems a very kind of good almost a compromise between two things. You have a right, right. This child has a right, there are two people involved here, and they both have rights, and there needs to be a way for this to work together. And and and you know, to to step away from that seems a strange thing, you know, a very d very dark thing really. Um Yeah. I don't know what the answer is. Um it's it yeah, it it is difficult.
SPEAKER_01And and you know, we need to remember that, you know, one in three women in the UK at least will have had an abortion. And and it's a personal issue and it's um and I totally accept that no woman takes that decision lightly. And I totally accept that no one woman takes that and that there are all sorts of complicated factors at play. Um but I just I what I struggle to see is when we see people cheering, like really cheering, um, for this. And you know, there there have been eight point eight million abortions in this country since 1967. 8.8 million. And it's even even if you're on that side and you win that debate it's always a tragedy, isn't it? You know?
SPEAKER_00It's always you'd you'd hope so. You'd hope that that would be the view. And that's why, you know, to see people standing their arms in the air feels strange. I mean, ca because it really I mean it ultimately it just comes back it comes down to the simple thing, isn't it? You you either think there is a life it is a life or it's not. That is the that is ultimately at the root of it. Right. And if you think it's a life, then you know, like why would you know, like like why would you feel that that was you wouldn't want to rejoice in it, you know, if you if you lost you know, if you had an abortion or you'd lost a child you know, in the room. Um I don't think you'd want to rejoice. Like like yes, this is a empowering thing, you know.
SPEAKER_01Because it's meant to be, you know, and and the catchphrase is always safe, legal, and rare. So in the pro-choice case, you know, we we think that abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. Yeah. Um but the rare thing just i it's not. No. In the UK, five hundred a day is not rare. Five hundred a day is not rare. Eight point eight million.
SPEAKER_00And I think I've always thought, you know, I say always thought, I mean, I've I've I've wondered sometimes, you know, if I was in a position where I actually had power to do something, you know, uh uh to make legislation, yeah, would I just say no abortions? Well, and and I think as a Christian, I I even And I find that a difficult one because the reality is people would go and get backstreet abortions and and whatnot. But it strikes me that there are there are cases of there are medical cases, aren't there, where it's very much something has terribly gone terribly wrong here and mum's gonna die unless we do something. And there are cases for stepping in, um, and I think we need to weigh those. But I'm not sure again that those are the majority of cases that actually for a lot of people it's like I just didn't I didn't want it at that stage for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And and the f I think and I and again, I mean I'm not well versed in the abortion debate, but stuff I've heard from a lot of you know, I've heard people say figures talking about it saying the issue with a lot of arguments you make about why abortion is okay, you could equally apply that to a grown adult. Right. You know, something happened, you know.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00I didn't feel I was you know, just take a really simple one like they couldn't afford to have a child. Well, people lose their jobs when they've got children. Yeah. You know, and it doesn't mean well now I can get rid of my child, you know. But equally like you say, I don't want to I would never condemn anyone that's had an abortion. You know, I wouldn't want to be like you are a terrible person or anything. I th I'd wanna be l I'd want to love that person, but it I think it's a deeply heartbreaking thing to hear that someone has yeah has that it has happened, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I w you know, I would I guess I would think that and I do do think that that such a person has been caught up in a an in an evil that is bigger than them and swept along in it. Um and that the evil that is bigger than that individual case really is evil.
SPEAKER_00Um, I I just think it is And it all gets caught up in this identity thing again, like, oh you're a man, so you don't get to have a say in it. You know, you don't have the control over what I do, my body, maybe.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00But then surely you could just flip that and say, well, you know, you're not a baby, you don't get a you don't get the say in well that you know, so it just feels like a a a very bad place to be in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so so then how do we how do we talk about it with um with our friends who don't understand where we're coming from and who think that surely the side of progress is you know, it's sweeping Europe and you this last stronghold, this you know, the south of Ireland, it's been swept away, and surely Northern Ireland is next, and then you know, the sweep of progress. How how do we have conversations where we say uh no, this is not progress? And and you know, I mean one one thing I did is is I tweeted out the other day, um uh there was a video that was on Sky News about people cheering um this this amendment that was made. And and my tweet just said that, you know, the year is twenty fifty, our grandchildren asked us, ask us, did they really cheer? What were they thinking? And we'll we'll we will tell them, you know, they thought it was choice, and no one will be able to fathom it. And because I I don't know, I I I don't think it's at all obvious that in thirty years' time we will understand our views on abortion today. I don't think it is at all obvious that the pro-choice argument will be.
SPEAKER_00And I mean, I've I've heard a few people say that with the march of you know, scientific discovery, actually it's e it's very possible we'll find more and more evidence to support the idea that that actually this is a life from much earlier. Scans and that yeah, and people people from you know, people a hundred years down the line or fifty years whatever may even look back with horror that we would have ever done it, and yet at the moment we we would we're indignant we'd be indignant that someone would deny the right to to do that. Um which you know it's an ever there's an ever shifting you know, that's the moral tide of society, isn't it? Is ever shifting sands?
SPEAKER_01Um But they want to pr portray it as the this this onward march of progress. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And Christians are holding people back and and now they're just being swept aside and we're and and I yeah, I would just And I mean I think the question I I mean you said how do we talk to people about this, how do we retell the story, and and I'm not sure I've got an easy answer. I don't I'm not sure quite how to begin. Um But you know, just in terms of you know, when I've talked to people about things, I've just wanted to say, well when when does it start? And try and pin people's life stuff. When does life start, you know? Because is it okay at this stage, that stage? Yeah. And obviously everybody, even on different sides of this, you know, people on the pro-choice side, even they're on a massive spectrum of some people would have been saying up to up to birth, basically. Yeah. Um Peter Singer, you know, up to like age three or something. Uh and it's just trying to define well where it what is life. And I remember, you know, someone said to me, well, you know, what would you do if you know you're in a you know the the clinic um and there's a load of embryos and there's a fire and there's a load of babies, who'd you save?
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_00And I kind of said, Well, you know what, in the heat of the moment, I w which was not a pun, I was like, I don't know what I would do. I said I'd probably grab the babies because I think I would know I know what to do with a baby. Yeah. I don't know anything about embryos, whether I would even survive if I whipped them out of cold soil. I don't know how it works. I said, but I said I said, but that doesn't prove either way whether one is life or not. That just because someone else might make a different decision on that. Someone else might go, embryos, straight away, you know. And and that doesn't answer the question, it just shows that we all have different views on what life is. Yeah. And what and you know, and he asked a similar question about, you know, um if uh you know your wife is pregnant, etcetera, etcetera, what would you do? And something happened. And again I said, you know, well, we'd have to see what the situation was. Um, you know, if it was a case of mother, child, you know, we'd have to weigh that up. But it would be a great source of sadness for us to have to do something to save uh, you know, maybe mum's life. Yeah. Um I said, but again, regardless of my choice on that, that still doesn't even that has no real bearing on the question of whether that is a life or not. Because whether you choose one way or the other makes no difference to whether that's life. And and again it was kind of oh well the law says, well, it doesn't matter what the law says in one sense, because the law can be wrong. And the law shifts as it has it is set to do an item. The law said, you know, slavery was cool, you know, homosexuality should be punished by you know prison time or whatnot. And I don't think any of us will go, well, that was the law, and therefore it was right then. So it's trying to define where it is, but of course that's a different set of arguments to let's paint a big picture of a gospel picture of a you know uh God and uh and Jesus and and you know, God who loves us and creates us in the womb. And that's a different thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean this really um had a big bearing on us. Um before I say that, Richard Blaney has just commented in Ireland people weren't convinced by abortion statistics or by brilliant images of the unborn being formed. They argued that abortion is already happening and they wanted unrestrict uh they want unrestricted access. The chance to break off from the control of the Catholic Church or others who tell them no was an added attraction. So yeah, that that's safe, legal, and rare um was it was a big part of uh of the argument that carried the day. But um I mean this yeah, the These issues are very personal to Emma and I. Um we um we did a modified IVF um process six times, um and uh the modification was um we wanted to attempt to fertilize just one egg at a time. Um we don't want to try to fertilize twelve and then have to, you know, dis discard uh 11 that you know um and and and that sort of thing. Um and then we were therefore left in a very um a very difficult moral position um because there was um one embryo that uh did fertilize and instantly it was obvious um that this child, and I will call them a child, um, was triploidy, which is a chromosomal disorder where uh instead of just having one extra chromosome, you've got a whole 23 extra chromosomes. So, you know, like down syndrome is one extra chromosome. This is 23 extra chromosomes. This is like um and the kind of fetal abnormalities of triploidy babies are are pretty intense, and you know, no child has survived more than a day or two outside the womb and that sort of thing. And and so we were told by our fertility clinic that, okay, the you know, it's over, that's it. Um it hasn't worked. And and it actually took us a while to figure out that um the embryo had fertilized, um, but they were refusing to place the embryo back in into Emma. And so we had we had to really fight for um for them to put the embryo back into Emma and with the full knowledge that if this child, you know, develops to full term um there could be all sorts of abnormalities and and all that kind of stuff. And so you don't take that kind of decision lightly at all. Um but the whole thing that was sort of motivating us was just we think, okay, here is a completely distinct entity that is not dad, it is not mum, it is some completely new re you know, re-jigging of our genetic material, a distinct human life. There he or she is, and so we have a sick child. So what do we now do with a sick child? We try to take care of that sick child. And we sounded like nuts to this fertility clinic. They said no one has ever done this. You know, literally, people are saying no one has ever in the history of IVF, which has been going for what 30, 40 years, no one has ever transferred a triploidy baby back into a womb. And we were like, okay, call us nuts. Call us nuts. But for us, you know, the gospel is all about God loving the little guy. So much he became the little guy. And he became the little guy in the womb. And we you know, we believe in the virgin conception of Jesus, that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit born of the Virgin Mary. So Jesus was Jesus from conception. It's part of the creed. It's right there in the Gospels. So what we have on our hands with this child was we have a sick child, and now how do we care for this sick child? Um and and the the guy in charge of the fertility center just didn't have any idea how to cope with us. He was he was just he just thought we were totally nuts. And um and so we got into the issue of well, where where do you think life begins? And he said, I I couldn't possibly say, and I said, Well, even if you can't say, um, you know, if you know, I I I literally gave him this this analogy. I I said, if we were in this clinic and uh somehow, you know, the the clinic has to come down. We have we have to demolish the clinic, there are explosives, there are charges set all around the building, we have to bring it down in order to, you know, build a a new wing. And let's say we're all outside in the car park, and I've got the button to press to detonate, you know, to to to get rid of this building, and I send you into the building to scout out to see if there's anyone in there. And you come back after having scouted out the entire wing of the of of of the hospital, and I say, Is there any life in there? And you say, I don't think so. Should I press the button? He just moved the conversation on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know I I don't think that's answerable. I I don't know whether it's life is not an argument for therefore press the button and detonate.
SPEAKER_00It amazes me that someone in that position could say, I don't think I can answer that. Right. Is that would that not be an integral part of what you do to know what is li life and what's not? Right. If you're having to particularly if you're making a decision between this one's good to go, this is not, you better know what's life and what's not, you know, otherwise you might just be pfft chucking a stuff load of stuff away.
SPEAKER_01A lot of it is chucking a lot of stuff away. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well I mean, you know, we you know, we had the the thing of, you know, a few weeks ago with when we had this ectopic pregnancy. Yeah. And like we didn't which was a complete shock to us. And when they kind of said this is what's happening, you know, we didn't really know kind of what was going on. Um But the first thing running through my head was when they were saying, you know, we've got to do this operation and remove the tube and whatnot was really like, well, what's the ethical Right. You know, I'm not sure I thought we were in that way, not quite as what's the ethical implications, but there was no information in the sense of like where what is gonna happen, where you know, is I was part of me was saying, well, is this child viable? Can it grow? And and actually it was only later that you know it became clear that no, actually this child would never have been viable, and actually Becca was in danger as well, and they said you came at the right time. Um but you know, I was genuinely only kind of you know, what were we maybe like eight weeks in thinking like, well, this is a life, you know, like I don't I don't think we should just enter into this lightly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, when they're saying and now we're gonna do this operation like later today, it's like, well, oh hang on, like, do we need to put the brakes on a second? Because I yeah 'cause I'm genuinely concerned that this is a life and are we killing a life here? Um we didn't come away from it like oh well, never mind. Like you know, I mean so so genuinely, you know, another at some point we'd like another baby, you know. But I I find it I find it hard to think how I could refer to that, you know, if we have another baby as like the third child. Right. Because I kind of think, well there was this other child, yeah. But it but it's and I hate calling it it, but we just don't know what it was, you know. Yeah, yeah. I think it it would just feel strange to be like, and this is our third child. Yeah. But then there was this child, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that is at such an early stage, you know, so I just think there's a lot of stuff at play. Like it's a yeah.
SPEAKER_01We've got we've got four little ones that we that we know of that we're we will look forward to embracing in heaven. Um but I yeah, I I think we do need to resist the language of just fetus and and that kind of that kind of thing, because you know, no one says when's your fetus due, right? Yeah. You know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know. Um and just bring bring this home to the gospel. Um what really what really struck me as we were going through some of this stuff was just how very gospel it is to uh to love the despised and foolish things of this world. So uh 1 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 27 says, God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong, God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. And you know, it's a real theology, the cross, that says God loves the little guy, God became the little guy, God honours the despised and shameful and weak. And I think the more godly we are as a society, the more we will honor the despised, the shameful, and the weak. Um and if our society is not ready for that, then legislation is not gonna change hearts. Well, we need to get out there and keep on preaching the cross. Um because only changes of hearts really are gonna change society uh at any deep level. Well, it's 2.07.
SPEAKER_00Wow. It's two. It's a record for us. It is. In fairness, we've probably spent a good few minutes just trying to get this microphone working. So Miming.
SPEAKER_01Well, guys, thank you so much uh for being with us. Do continue the conversation in comments if you like. Uh do like uh us on Facebook, and then you'll get more of these videos. Subscribe to us on on YouTube if you like. And uh you can get this as an audio download by going to uh any podcast uh Spitterouterer. And uh you can search for the Speak Life Podcast and get this. Uh it comes out on Friday. Should come out Friday. Yeah. Right. Brilliant. And uh and do if you uh want to uh uh ask more thorny questions. Uh we've just come to the end of a series of thorny questions on suffering. We'd love to address your big issues that you've got about life, the universe, and everything in five minutes. Um send them our way and we'll have a go. Yeah, yeah. Always good to scratch where people are itching. Good. To use the phrase. Good. Exactly. Well, that's all we got time for for today. But uh thanks everyone, guys, and uh see you again. Take care. Bye-bye.