The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_04Recently, New York Times columnist Ross Duthat wrote of two paths we could take in our divided culture. We could cultivate a spirit of curiosity and conversation, or we could wage a furious war against whichever side we think is evil. Well, the internet made its choice, and in a move that shocked literally nobody, it opted for the latter. This very article which urged us against hostilities to provoke battle cries from heat-take ninjas who live, it seems, in opposite world. In opposite world, black is white, and Ross Duthett, a conservative Catholic, has written a terrifying allude to radio terrorism to the sex revolution. Ross Duth is not celebrating radio culture terrorism to the remote. In particular, the idea that we have to be illusory sexual. A message that frequency and variety in sexual experience is as close to a sun and bottom as the human condition has to offer. That the greatest possible diversity in sexual designs, hazards and identities, should not only be exceptionally but cultivated, and that virginity and celibacy are at least strange and at worst hatiable state. This is that intelligence, sexual self-expression, is a highest good and therefore some kind of human right. There is no doubt that his feeling exists. That it feeds the incel movement and also perhaps the market of the sex robot. But Russia Luther is neither defending incels nor praising sex robots. He's doing something far more alarming and hence the outrage. Luther has the nerve to question whether a sex life is out of the way. In doing so, of course, Luther is hitting himself against the incels. He's on the side of the voluntary celibate, the faithful celibates, the single, the widowed, the disabled, the incapacitated, the asexual, and everyone who might be excluded when you exalt sex to a supreme marker of human worth. If he's right, he's saving us from the incels. He's saving us from a rape culture where men feel entitled to women. He's saving us from a pathetic, groin-centric account of humanity. He's saving us from a pornographied world where everything is libido. And heck, he might even be saving us from the sex bots.
SPEAKER_02Back with sex robots.
SPEAKER_04So we we know how to make an entrance.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So Tuesday, the 15th of May, and uh yeah. If you say so, yeah. The IDs of May have come. And uh yes, because last week I was in Bangor, uh reaching out. This is the Northern Irish Banger. Um, yeah, bunch of churches reaching out with the gospel in uh in Bangor, and uh yeah, brilliant time.
SPEAKER_02So is it uh a church-organized mission week type thing? What's it look like?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was uh four different churches in particular had gotten together, um three best Presbyterian churches and a Baptist church, and uh yeah, so they did all sorts of stuff, including um coach tours. So they decided to um like advertise, it was an event bright kind of thing, and they advertised on all the what's on banga uh websites, and they were offering tours around Banger, which has quite a Christian history to it, and the tour guides sort of showed them the Christian history, and then at the end people had sort of scones and tea, and I sort of gave a little ten-minute talk on Jesus and how he's shaped history. And uh what was fascinating is like the the first time we did it, we did it four times. First time we did it, like four people, three people afterwards said uh we want to um discover more about Christianity, please sign us up for a course. And one person said, I want to begin following Jesus. A bus tour. Bus tour?
SPEAKER_02Don't they have their own bus? Yeah. Like, how's it work?
SPEAKER_04They they just rented like a big mini bus and there were about 15 seats on it. And so there was a driver and there was a tour guide.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad there was a driver. That's positive. That'd be a bit of an oversight, really, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_04Well, I don't know. If you if you want to really put someone in the hot box and kind of come up.
SPEAKER_02Come on, Ethel, you're driving.
SPEAKER_04We just put a brick onto the accelerator. So who wants to trust Jesus? Yep. Um So that was that was really interesting. So they did that four times. So um that was sort of pushing the boat out.
SPEAKER_02No, not a but it was a bus, not a boat. For buses, yes. You said pushing the boat out. Yeah, that's right. I'm gonna be very particular, sorry.
SPEAKER_04And uh and then I had to interview my wife one night. So um for the role of wife. No.
SPEAKER_02You passed the test.
SPEAKER_04You've passed the test. But we have a 15-year review, you know, coming up.
SPEAKER_02But we'll go on, we'll give it another year.
SPEAKER_04Renewable contracts.
SPEAKER_02Great. So that was interesting. I hadn't realise she was out there with you. Although, in fairness, I had seen your post that you were interviewing Emma, but I'd not really put two and two together.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you thought it was just a sock puppet. Yeah. Of which later. Of which more later. But uh yeah, so uh yeah, interviewed my wife, interviewed James Schoen, who's a really interesting guy who uh age 39 got a brain tumor, and just his life was completely um turned upside down. Brenda Hale, who was married to um a soldier who died in Afghanistan in 2009. Um we got to hear her story. Uh we got uh we got uh a magician um to come and do a Saturday afternoon thing. Yep. But in uh in this particular part of the world, you don't you don't call him a magician, you call him a family entertainer. Uh okay. Um he's up to you know family entertaining and and tricks and hijinks and everything but magician, right? Um because you know. Have you ever seen that Simpsons episode where Ned Flanders reads to his children from Harry Potter? It's like a it's a Christianized version of Harry Potter. Yeah, wings about it.
SPEAKER_03Then God threw Harry Potter and all his wizard friends into the lake of fire. Oh, I see. Rod and Tartar going.
SPEAKER_02You can't mention magic. You can't mention magic, yeah. I see.
SPEAKER_04So I was trying desperately, like, don't say magician, don't say magician. And then just yeah, accidentally I just interviewed him as Brian the Warlock. Thank you so much, Brian. That was wizard. Wizard fun. Um, I tried not to say that, so we did that kind of event.
SPEAKER_02So it was the format we're in those are those are evenings apart from that, mm-n non-magician in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_04And there were morning times. I I interviewed a woman um for like uh yeah, a a women's morning, Anna Davis, like an incredible story. Like she went she went blind age 26, and she was like kind of like 90% blind at that stage. And then 20 years later, they said we've got this pioneering kind of surgery, and we think we can restore your sight. And she had the surgery, and instead of it restoring 90% of her sight, she lost the rest of the 10%.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_04And that was kind of like devastating. And then 20 years later, they say, Oh no, but this time we've got the perfect surgery for you, and it'll really work. And like she was on TV, kind of uh on this journey about they made documentaries about her, how she was like making this journey through, and it's gonna be stunning. And and her sight was restored for like a week. And she could see her husband see her grandchildren for the first time. Her her daughter was six months old when she went blind, and so this is the first time she's like seeing her daughters and things, and so she could see for a week and then it fades to black again.
SPEAKER_02Wow. It's like, wow, what a story. Yeah, that is pretty crazy, really, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04It's like hope deferred makes the heart sick, isn't it? Like proverbs. Um and so yeah, talking about her, but she just had such such a vibrant faith, and she's just really had to learn how to trust in Jesus and not in circumstances. Um and she just yeah, there wasn't a dry eye in the house as she was talking about her story, and so got to speak off the back of that. And yeah, so fifteen fifteen different events that I got to speak at between And generally just you you it was an interview testimony format with a talk.
SPEAKER_02Lots of or a bus ride.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes, or a bit of um non-magic magic. A bit of not magic. Slight of hand. Sleight of hand, illusion. A sleight of hand artist. Um now on speak on on the comments, uh Jonah Jacob has said, I suppose there's no sock puppets to look forward to too. Well, Jonah. Well, Jonah.
SPEAKER_02You're in luck. Um well, if you actually want real sock puppets, you're not in luck. But uh we're gonna talk about it.
SPEAKER_04We're gonna talk about it. So uh which camera is this one? This one here. So um uh one of our uh viewers, uh Evan Williams, has I don't know if you can see that, but he's actually made for us a definitely legitimate award given to Speak Pu Speak Life, and uh for the reason I it's it should say I hereby recognize speak life. Herbie.
SPEAKER_02It says Herbie Recognize.
SPEAKER_04I Herbie Recognise, Evan, come on. Um love bug. Yeah. For uh and the the award is for the most astute point made by sock puppets in 2018. In twenty eighteen.
SPEAKER_02So we were gutted to miss out in 2017, weren't we? So actually picking it up now has been a real honour. I think Lutheran Satire won it that year, but uh We were thinking of taking all these ones and like just throwing them in the bin, blowing the spin burning them um and keeping that one Pride of Place next time. Um I'm actually quite legitimately chuffed with the Shock Buffett Awards, if I'm honest. Like I've not won many things, so uh This is it. No, yeah. Have you ever won anything apart from this, obviously, but we don't these.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we don't want to we don't like to make a big deal of these awards. Um, but I I once went out with a girl who was the runner-up in the Gwyneth Bobbin Prize for most improvement in home economics.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that perfect? That doesn't even mean she was good at home economics, just that she'd improved. And she was second.
SPEAKER_04And Gwyneth Bobbin, isn't that the best name? Gwyneth Bobbin. Brooklyn, she's actually here today, right? She's dodged a bullet. Man, Lucy Sykes. Yeah, Lucy Sykes, you legend. But uh yeah, where are where are you now, Lucy Sykes? You know, she's I mean if she's continued to improve. If she has continued to improve now on that on that trajectory. This is taking a turn. Um but if if uh if you want to know why it is that we won this uh spectacular award um for most astute point made by a soft in 2018, uh this is actually the clip that won it for us.
SPEAKER_01Deals in absolutes Isn't that an absolute statement? Sorry, I sorry powerful. Single tier. Single tier.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Very moving.
SPEAKER_04We should do more of that. Sock puppets.
SPEAKER_02More sock puppets. So you think we we've used them a few times now.
SPEAKER_04Could we crowbar them in later on? We're we're recording a couple more thorny slowly. Yeah, yeah, we should. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I mean, although most socks are a little sweaty today. Should probably bring in a clean pair.
SPEAKER_02Most things that we stick in our videos are crowbarred in. So I'm sure we can get some sock puppets in. That's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But it would make a it would make a good point. Anyway, if you want more, if you want more sock puppets, just say in the comments. Uh speaking of comments, Darren Hill has said, finally, I have caught you guys live. Oh, nice to be caught by you, Darren. Very contagious in an appropriate way. Uh Charles Ray McNinch uh is just crying. Okay. Sorry. Sorry about that. Yeah. We're trying to get better. I don't speak emoji, sorry.
SPEAKER_02Is it the laughing emoji?
SPEAKER_04It might be, yeah. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I don't know. He looks in a lot of pain, to be honest. But and uh Gail Denise, hello to you as well.
SPEAKER_02Good. I think Gail subscribes to my guitar channel. Oh, does she? I think it's Gail. What would people get? Like, if people if people went to your guitar channel, what would they find? What would they find? Uh guitar lessons. Wow. So yeah. What's the latest thing that you've been teaching people? The last song I did, what did I do last week? It was Get Lucky by Daft Punk. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the week before that it was Good Times by Sheik. What's it? How does the guitar riff go in that? Uh what? In uh Get Lucky. It's like the same four chords over and over.
SPEAKER_01It's like a ding ding.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that could be the new theme tune.
SPEAKER_03I'm that to get speak life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Maybe. So I mean, if you're not if you haven't already subscribed, which I'm sure you have, yeah. I mean Run, don't walk. To Crowbra guitar.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it's it's worth doing, because I mean at least 20 other people think it's worth subscribing to.
SPEAKER_04So I mean You know what your channel needs. Sock puppets. Sock puppets.
SPEAKER_02Might be more difficult to Yeah, it does make it more awkward.
SPEAKER_04Anyway, um before people complain about the banter. Um It's the annoying preamble. This is not, this is still packed full of gospel goodies. Theological insight.
SPEAKER_02Do you want to talk about your um uh your rant or we're just leaving it be?
SPEAKER_04Well that yeah, okay. So I I mean I'm I'm late to the party because I think that article by Ross Duthat was uh like May 2nd or May 3rd or something. So I'm I'm like f a fortnight out of date.
SPEAKER_02Well I'd not I imagine a lot of people weren't even gonna have heard of it. No. Because I'd never heard of him. No. And I'd not read the article until this morning.
SPEAKER_04No, but you had been Googling sex robots.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, and and that's how I came across the article. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And you were disappointed by the lack of sex robots in said article.
SPEAKER_02But Well, I mean, the whole thing you you're saying about people not understanding like the point of his article, I did kind of say, I can understand why, you know, I you know, I don't feel when I read an article I should need a dictionary to be able to work out what they're saying.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02Um and you know, I wouldn't say that I came away with the wrong point from his article. Yep. I would say that I I just came away with nothing. Nothing from Google. What? What? Yeah. He used some words I just didn't know. Yeah. And I thought I could look this up now. But I didn't.
SPEAKER_04But I didn't want to. Exactly. Life is short. Life is short. And there were so many other search terms in the in the engine. So many other results to explore.
SPEAKER_02Back to the Google search results for sex robots. That's right.
SPEAKER_04But I don't know. I yeah, I just I I first came upon it when I when someone was outraged about it. And so, you know, the outrage antennae. Of course you did. And so I I don't know. It's uh it but it did seem like I've I've never come across an article that has been like literally 180 degrees misread. Right, so you know a complete as though he is totally on side with the incel terrorists.
SPEAKER_02And was he was he just not well I don't think he was that clear, but was he was he s was he being satirical? Was he was he you know, or was he?
SPEAKER_04No, I th I think he was actually trying to reach across the aisle between left and right and and sort of say You don't want to do that. You don't want to do that trouble. Seriously. Because he, you know, he sort of quoted this kind of feminist philosopher saying that she too is saying sex is not a right. And uh and then but his common ground. He's finding common ground finding some common ground with her, but if he just found common ground with her, that would have been good. But he also said, ah, and like on the far right like nonsense side of things, there is these incels and and involuntary celibates who, you know, some of whom turned to terrorism to, you know, to further their cause for the the fair redistribution of sex in the world. And so just him mentioning that, I think, just triggered people and people's like people's ability to kind of engage with yeah, views that are not their own and to to pick up on nuance and things. I d I don't know. And I I just think that he he was actually quite strong on sex is not a right. Um and I think that people couldn't actually hear him say that because they I think they're kind of thinking, he can't be saying that. I mean, we all know that you know the highest point of human flourishing is sexual self-expression.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04And so when he did he when he wasn't saying that, people were kind of they didn't know where to go. They thought he was just like you know, on the side of the incels and the sex robots. But Ross do that for the record, he's not on the side of incels and sex robots.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Well, you know Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, because he I saw he a very long kind of tweet thread I think uh he was giving clarifying his position, which was much clearer. Right. Yeah, which you'd hope a clarification would be. Yeah. Umless you're Jeremy Corbyn about anti-Semitism. Well, there were still people ripping into him off the back of that though, when he was you know, and and he said some very clear things. Yeah. Oh yeah, that makes sense there. Yeah. Um but I mean I didn't I mean I didn't read his article and think to myself, oh, he's leaping to the defence of people who do these things. So I didn't get that at all. But um no some people are low I don't know. Some people are like a dog with a bone, aren't they? That they see something in an article. It could be one word or a phrase and they link onto it and triggering go with it. Yeah, well that's it, that's what the whole triggering thing comes from, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04You get triggered by something and which is uh just ironic because he starts the article by saying, you know, we could do two things. We could have curiosity and conversation, or we could just wage war with people who we consider to be evil. We choose war. Alright. So, yeah, and this is why we can't have nice things. Uh so sex robots, tick. That's it. If you're looking for more s more about sex robots, that's all we've got. That's all we've got. But it was it was quite a um it was quite a dystopian vision though of the future. Like and I and I I think I think that's the doorbell, Andy. Um I think So you don't need to know that, but Andy has just gone under the table.
SPEAKER_02Um my understanding was what he was saying was he was saying, look, there is this there's this generation or group of people, not just these incels, but other people, who because we live in a society that says or gives the impression sex is a right and the highest possible thing, people who aren't getting sex and feeling like they should be are reacting sometimes like those incels, like we've done these atrocities. But he was saying this sex bot thing is society's answer to that. And he was saying rather than kind of re-examining our culture, you know, so for him, I think, a good thing would be, and probably as Christians we'd agree, that it would be good for us to re examine our view as a culture on sex and so that there is a place for celibacy and you know, all that, and we're dealing with people who are facing loneliness. Um that would be a good thing to do, but actually as a society, of course we won't do that because we'd yeah, we'd just go, well, that's gone backwards. Yeah. So of course the most sensible thing for us to do is sex robots. Yeah. And uh he was kind of saying really, he was kind of saying, isn't this a bit terrifying that this is what the future is? Yeah, exactly. So rather than people having healthy, loving, warm relationships that perhaps they're seeking sex robots.
SPEAKER_04Sex robots. And see, you you just put that much clearer than just that. Give that man a column. If he just said that, yeah. So yeah, he does need to take it on the chin that you know, if there's that level of misunderstanding, then something's gone wrong in this communication event.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think yeah, that's probably fair. Yeah. But I mean, if I've understood from our conversations what he was saying, and it it he seems like he was being relatively reasonable.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think that that's the power of rants. The power of rants is to set right what once was wrong. And I think we've done that now.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Good.
SPEAKER_04Now, another thing we've wanted to do uh this afternoon, we're gonna we're gonna think about um sex robots. That's done. No more. No more.
SPEAKER_02You keep saying it's done, but you keep mentioning it again and again again. You've got to let it go.
SPEAKER_04So Moorish. They're so Moorish. Once you bot. Anyway, you just gotta stop. So, but now we're gonna move on. Um, because we're gonna talk about suffering and we're gonna talk about what what is got up to in suffering. Um uh, and that was our thorny question that we asked last night, and it went out as a video. But before that, we thought that um Korea, North Korea, South Korea are in the news a Lot at the moment. And I've been seeing this article that goes around quite a lot that's incredibly optimistic about the prospect for peace and the prospect for reunification, but also the prospect for kind of revival again in North Korea. And uh and that's just such a an incredible prospect when you when you think about uh North Korea, the hardest place on planet Earth to be a Christian. Um could it could it be once again like a center for you know Christian faith and revitalization uh again? So I thought, why don't we ask Liam Steele, uh, who's a friend from Union? Uh you might know that we run the uh Union Learning Community here in Eastbourne, and uh Paul is a graduate from uh from Union. Um and in fact, Evan Williams uh also studied with us um at Union. And so that's that's something that we do. We partner together, uh speak life in union with things, and uh I got to know Liam a little bit from that. He spent 15 years in uh South Korea, and he knows the scene, he's married to a Korean himself, and uh so I just thought we could get his wisdom on what is happening on that peninsula and how we can pray about it. So uh without further ado, let's go to the interview. The moment, is that right?
SPEAKER_07Yes, that's right. Sunny Bridge End. It's actually very sunny today.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, sunny bridge end. And we're in sunny Eastbourne on the Sunshine Coast. So uh are you used to much sunshine? You you you grew up you you were born in Canada, is that right? I was born in Scotland. Born in Scotland and then went to Canada very, very early on.
SPEAKER_07So I'm familiar with with ice and snow and uh yeah, lots of winter sports happening. Uh I'm not much into ice hockey as my compatriots would be in Canada, but uh how cold could it get?
SPEAKER_04Like where did you grow up?
SPEAKER_07Um well I grew up around Canada. My father was a pastor, so we moved around a little bit. Um the coldest I felt was about minus 45 with wind chill that made it minus 80.
SPEAKER_04Okay. I was about to ask, is that Fahrenheit or Celsius?
SPEAKER_07Um if you can't if you can get your mind around that was about primary school year seven.
SPEAKER_04And uh so um That's two jumper weather, isn't it? Absolutely two jumper.
SPEAKER_07I think it was about four jumper weather plus a coat. How does your blood screen in that too?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04So that's that's one of those points where you you you put the the the kettle, the the water from the kettle into the air and it kind of pulverizes and it was it was shockingly cold.
SPEAKER_07The schools were still open.
SPEAKER_04So not here then. Well, no, but uh if it's one degree below, everything shuts down.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I was shocked that that Bridgen actually got snow this year at about five centimeters, and of course, we're out playing and uh and the city's shut down. Yeah, the town.
SPEAKER_04It's not a city catastrophe. Snow Mageddon.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. We were all my Canadian friends were having a very good laugh.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So you so you're in Canada from age two to age 26?
SPEAKER_07About that, yeah. And then God sent me to Korea, and I I went for financial reasons really to to teach English for a year or two, and ended up staying 15 years. Um He introduced me to the woman who became my wife, gave me three children, and uh placed me in ministry there too. So um God you can looking back, you can see God's God's hands and and direction and and the experiences and and where he placed me and the various jobs that I had.
SPEAKER_04And so was it a sense that you had like Korea was on your heart before you went there, or it was literally business took you there?
SPEAKER_07Um I I played around with martial arts when I was in high school and college, so um I wanted to do the Asia thing, I think, when I was in finishing university. And uh some friends recommended Korea as a great, great way and a kind of a gateway, because they'll give you housing and they pay you, and then you get to travel on your your off time. They who who who pays you? Um the the schools that I was working for. Okay. The they, whatever. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, to teach them English and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I was I was paid to teach English, and then uh got to do a bit of travel, so Thailand and and some other things, but uh nothing more than tourism. Um and uh yeah, then uh God sent me to Seoul uh from some kind of some of the outlying regions, and then uh into Seoul, into the the direct line of fire from North Korea. Um within artillery range. But uh yeah, so I I met my wife. I wanted to move to Seoul to to be closer to her and uh get married, and then I was working at a uh university uh there, and then he said, train for ministry and see what I'm gonna do with you.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_07Now here I am in Wales.
SPEAKER_04Why? Natural progression. What's the yeah, what's what what is what is the link?
SPEAKER_07Why Wales? Yeah, um the Korean Church has a very strong relationship with uh the UK, especially in Wales. The first Protestant missionary was a man named Robert Germain Thomas, and uh he was he's considered the the first Protestant missionary. And uh he, as he was getting off his boat, uh the General Sherman in Pyongyang, actually, um he was executed on the beach, his first time into Korea. He had been some of the outlying islands before giving out Bibles, but this is his first time to come inland, and uh and uh they generally they they rejected the gospel, but he came in on a an American ship, trade vessel, right? And uh they they set fire to the ship, he jumped and swam to shore with a load of Bibles. And uh he actually the legend is that that he gave a Bible to his executioner. So they he said, Here, receive the Bible. This is about this will save your life. And the man lopped off his head and took the Bible and papered his walls with it. They would use paper as as wallpaper, basically, they paper their houses with that, and uh it was good quality paper, so he papered his wall, and uh long story short, he read the gospel as he was dusting the house. He would bring his wall, and that house became a church.
SPEAKER_04Amazing.
SPEAKER_07So his execution executioner became an elder in the church, and then about a generation later, you have this great revival in Pyongyang. And uh it was called the Jerusalem of the East. Um the church was so strong in the early 1900s. And then with Japanese occupation, Christians were actually considered to be great nationalists and great patriots because they refused to bow to the Japanese emperor and uh they to seek the free people. And uh yeah, so the church grew and grew, and then in the 1970s you get these mega churches uh they were growing growing up and it just became massive. And they they all have this legacy rooted in this this young Welsh man. I think he was about twenty-seven when he he was killed. What in what what year was he killed? 1866.
SPEAKER_04Okay, okay. Because things really really took off on the peninsula in in the turn of the century, really.
SPEAKER_07There had been people coming in, um, but it was mostly Catholic missions. And uh you see that kind of in the south, southern regions. But uh Robert Jermaine Thomas was the one who really tried to push for it, and then after him, there was more openness to to receiving the gospel as the churches became established. But in like 1901, it was only like one percent of the of the population was was Christian, and then after 1907, it was just boomed. And so now it's about twenty depending on your source, it's about between 25 and 30 percent of the population is Christian.
SPEAKER_04Amazing, amazing. And what do people put that down to? I I know that like prayer is just a massive part of Korean spirituality, is that prayer is huge.
SPEAKER_07Yeah um they get they gather early mornings almost every day. Um, they have basically it's a concert of prayer. Um you see people gathered in the church at 5 a.m. or earlier during the special prayer weeks, like the week before Easter, for example, they'll they'll gather three, four in the morning, pray for hours on end, and a lot of their prayer time is spent to pray for this reconciliation between North and South Korea, among other issues. Um But fervent prayer is one of the great markers of this the South Korean church. I think you'll you'll never experience anything like it. And if you have a chance to go, if if union takes you over, um have a chance and and just witness that. It's it's amazing to see.
SPEAKER_04Does it rub off on you? Does it can you can can you catch it? Is it contagious?
SPEAKER_07Like um I think maybe the over life um well it shows you the importance of prayer and how how the Holy Spirit can work and how prayer is answered and and just how desperate people are for God. That cry out of desperation that that is so common in in Korea that you see. I think we can learn from that and take take from that that uh prayer. It's it's kind of a concert of prayer. People are praying together, but still kind of individually as well. So it's it's kind of a corporate prayer that's led by the pastor, and then he'll give you what to pray for, and then you all just go off. Okay. I mean, I I was a little bit bitter about being there so early in the morning, but you get over that, then and you just realize that people these people love the Lord and they want to experience more of him, and and you see that.
SPEAKER_02I guess maybe you partly answered what I was gonna say. I was gonna I was just gonna say, why do you think why do you think prayer is so massive there? When you compare it to maybe like here in the UK church or maybe the Western Church, um, I mean, lots of people will hear about people getting up at 3, 4 in the morning and be a little bit like, wow, that's really extreme. Um, and you know, it will be very alien to us. Why do you think it's so huge there and not so huge here?
SPEAKER_07Um, that's a good question. I think um because the history that they've experienced, I think that that they're kind of rooted in animism and Buddhism. So a lot of that can come kind of creep in, not that they're animistic or Buddhist in uh trying to syncretize Christian faith, but a lot of that kind of style kind of comes in of their prayer. So it's it's kind of a kind of a cultural thing as well that it comes in. I mean, I the people at at my church in Bridge End, they're no less passionate about God, they're just a lot quieter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Except when the rugby comes on.
SPEAKER_07Right, right. Singing hymns at a football game.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And and what has that meant for the North as well? So uh is it 1953?
SPEAKER_07That's when the um that's when the the division was was made um after the the Korean War, which never officially ended until the recent talk that we're hearing about.
SPEAKER_04And what what would have been sort of the relative strengths of of the church north versus south at that point?
SPEAKER_07Um I think you have a strong Presbyterian influence in the North. Um the first Christian colleges were in Pyongyang, and there's there even remains today a college, the the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology. It's funded by evangelical groups in the West. So there's still some influence, there's still some inroads there. Um Kim Jong-un's great-grandfather was an elder in the church.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_07But uh there's an influence. And then you see when they talk about the great leader, Kim Il-sung, and the deer leader, a lot of the language they use is really very similar to the South Korean worship style as well.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_07A real kind of religious fervor surrounding the personality cult of the Kims. You can find on on YouTube and through various online stuff. You can find documentaries about North Korea, and you can you can see that yourselves.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it's astonishing just to see the similarities too between the the church uh in South Korea and then the Kim regime, how they demand such uh worship, really.
SPEAKER_04Worship, yeah. And but and ideologically, uh is it an atheist state?
SPEAKER_07North Korea officially it's an atheist state, but they kind of deify the Kim's.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_07So there's a lot of supernatural legends that have risen up uh surrounding the birth of Kim Jong Il, Kim Jong-un's father, that he was miraculously born on a mountainside and just was walking from day one or some kind of supernatural insulting.
SPEAKER_04It's like G. K. Chesterton's line, isn't it? When you stop believing in God, you don't believe in nothing, you believe in anything.
SPEAKER_07Right. Yeah. But uh yeah, but I I think there's still uh uh ironically a hunger to uh for for a gospel for a savior. You see so many defectors come come out saying, well, the church is the one that gave us hope. Because we were connected with these Christians and they sacrificed from themselves. They gave us, even though we didn't what why are they giving us money? Why are they giving us this help? And it's like, well, because they love Jesus and they want to see you be saved.
SPEAKER_04So is there like a cultural memory of Christianity for for you know your average North Korean?
SPEAKER_07Um maybe not the average North Korean. I think that's been all but wiped out because of the the gulags and the the punishments that are are due. Like owning a Bible is a capital capital crime. Wow. In North Korea, they'll kill your whole family if you have one Bible in your house. So children are told to report their their parents if they see any kind of questionable literature which would include a book with a cross on the cover. Wow. Wow. So now I don't think they've succeeded entirely.
SPEAKER_04Right, right. And and estimates, I I see lots of different estimates on how many Christians there might be in North Korea. I've seen one at sort of a hundred thousand, one at sort of four hundred thousand. I don't know.
SPEAKER_07It's probably within that range, it's hard to get an exact number. Um churches very underground. There are, I think, four official state churches, two Protestant, a Catholic, and an Orthodox church. Um, but you you'll be hard pressed to find anything but the party line from those official churches.
SPEAKER_04And down south, how do how do Christians in South Korea kind of think about the situation politically and and spiritually in the North?
SPEAKER_07Um, Christians in South Korea, um, we have to differentiate between how they think of the regime and how they think of the everyday person. Um in the church that I was involved with uh in South Korea, they would have weekly prayer meetings, prayer concerts for reconciliation between the North and South, reunification. That's that's always been a very major um major line of thought and line for prayer within the church in South Korea. People really want to see the country brought back together. Christians know that the best way for this is really through Jesus, that that our reconciliation to God comes from Jesus. I think more liberal denominations might say that that that's a here and now thing kind of a kind of uh what is it, uh um liberation theology such as a lot of things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_07And and that that can be read out of it, but uh I think more orthodox Christians would would say that that our the best hope for North Korea is Jesus, but reconciliation can can come through the Holy Spirit working and opening those doors. And a lot of them would see what's currently happening as as that great potential for the Holy Spirit, providing these opportunities for the gospel to come forward.
SPEAKER_02Um so how how has Trump's election kind of changed out with all the stuff we're seeing at the moment going on? How has that kind of affected the mood over there?
SPEAKER_07Well, when I first arrived in Korea, it was kind of quiet. There would be the occasional shelling or or like gunfire across the border or whatever. Um, and I would say to my my South Korean co-workers, aren't you scared of this? Isn't this worrying? And they said, No, this happens all the time. We're just so used to it. We don't bother with it anymore. But then when Trump was elected, his bombast and his his rhetoric um kind of counters Kim Jong-un's bombast and rhetoric in a similar way. So so while we were used to the North Korean saber rattling, Trump was really a wild card. And so we didn't really know what to expect. We were more afraid of what he would do than what we know. He's got the button, will he actually do it? You know, so we're more worried about that. And then North Korea seemed to be kind of just saying, goading them on, saying, Yeah, we'll bring it.
SPEAKER_04And then Trump tweeted out Rocket Man and Lil Kim as a rocket man.
SPEAKER_07But uh it it seems that that they they have listened a bit to this strong line of rhetoric, and and that seems to have opened some ears, I guess. I don't know. I'm I'm not a big fan of Trump, really, but uh if this can bring about an openness and a reunification, then him and and the new president, President Moon in South Korea, I mean that this would be a great opportunity to see political gain. Um we still have to remember that despite all of the positive news, the church is still struggling. The church is officially still under a great deal of oppression.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yeah. And but you do you do see hope for political gain, you do see hope for reunification, for instance, in this moment?
SPEAKER_07Um well, if if you believe the rhetoric, I tend to be a little bit hesitant to believe it because we've heard something stuff like this before in the 90s and in the early 2000s. We've we've kind of heard this before. Um so I tend to be hopeful but hesitant, is what I how I like to say it. Um yes, I want to see reunification. This is the first time we've heard the North Korean leader leaving the country to go and visit other leaders outside of North Korea saying, coming, stepping over the border to South Korea, shaking hands, smiling with the South Korean leader saying, we want to end the war. We want to officially declare that this war is over, we want to have peace. Our God is a God of peace. We of course we desire that. We we love hearing that. So we've got a lot of Christians praying even harder, probably now in South Korea, that that this will be a success.
SPEAKER_04And in the background, you've got a whole bunch of praying Christians, and you know, when the when the Berlin Wall came down, it came down all in a hurry. And you know, there seem to be a lot of Christians praying behind it. And you know, if if God's gonna like work in a surprising way anywhere, yeah. Maybe that maybe in Korea is exactly the place we're we're we're hopeful.
SPEAKER_07Um kind of at a wait and see kind of mentality, but very, very hopeful.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So what should we be praying for for the for the north in particular?
SPEAKER_07For the north in particular. Pray for the church, pray for the saints there that they'll be strong, um, that they'll stand up in the face of persecution, uh, pray that the persecution would end, and that that that Kim Jong-un himself would would come to Christ. That's that's their only real hope is if the leader comes to Christ, then we have great, great hope. And and he's not beyond the reach of the gospel either. That's not that God can save him. He's no atrocity that he's ever done is is beyond the reach of the gospel. So that's that's my ultimate prayer is that uh Kim Jong-un and his the leaders surrounding him would would come to Christ. Strength for the church, strength for Christians there, for groups that come in to work with North Koreans who are from evangelical Christian backgrounds. They're not allowed to explicitly evangelize, but they do a lot of good work in helping orphans and schools and pregnant.
SPEAKER_04Um that was incredibly hopeful about um certainly the access that that evangelistic missions and and and aid organizations will be able to have in the north. I mean, is that factually correct that that there is now a greater ability to teach the Bible in the North?
SPEAKER_07I think there's a potential for that. I think that perhaps the report was a little overly optimistic. I think like I like I said, I'm I'm kind of gonna wait and see, hopeful, but kind of uh mentality that I've got. Um there's nothing explicit that Kim John said, um, at least openly, that suggested that he is now now a thing in North Korea. But um we hear the line that he's saying, and that he wants to create an openness, he wants to open it for Western investment, so that would bring Christian missionaries, and it could bring the doors open. Um I saw one Facebook friend of a friend posting. I actually saw their post, so so I I can take it for their word that they were playing worship songs in Canada.
SPEAKER_04So wait and see. And let's just finish on um because your going from Korea to Wales is um is part of a bigger thing, really, isn't it? That that um just as you know the original missionaries went out from here to bless uh Korea, now they're sending loads of people and loads of resources um this way in in order to bless the church that had blessed them back in the past. Tell me about some of that, some of that movement from Korea to the West.
SPEAKER_07Well, you see, um a lot of support is coming this way. Um, I think the church that I'm involved with, um, they're a big supporter of union, they're a big supporter of the work that we're doing, but in Europe in general, they see a great need for the gospel. So they want to see leaders raised up locally among the local people so that they'll go out and plant churches because they know better what their local context is. So they want to see leaders raised up and churches planted. So there's there's a great vision, there's a great participation and partnership between the church in Korea, the church in the UK, the churches in Europe. And so we're seeing uh a great influx of reverse missionaries like myself coming back to my my country of origin to to witness for the gospel. I I wouldn't have chosen that for myself necessarily, but God works in great ways, and I'm I'm happy doing his work here.
SPEAKER_04So yeah. And it's exciting seeing uh what God's doing through union as well, and uh and there in Wales and through Union blessing uh so many others in Europe and uh and further afield.
SPEAKER_07So it's exciting times.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant brilliant. Well, Liam, thank you so much for sparing time with us.
SPEAKER_07Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, and you've uh you've really helped us to get a vision for North and South Korea and to and hopefully that'll inspire our prayers and and yeah, maybe some of that uh Korean prayerful spirit of supplication will rub off on us. That would be nice, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, it would.
SPEAKER_04All right, well, all the best. God bless Liam. Thanks. So uh there we are. Now we're back. Now we're back live. So yes, we recorded that earlier with um uh with Liam Steele at Union. And uh, if you want to check out more uh about union, go to union-mission.org and uh you can see some of the things that they're doing. And uh listen, if uh if you want to study with us using the union material, um we want to uh be able to offer the graduate diploma and uh get in contact and uh and maybe we could uh sort out a way of studying together and then maybe going on mission together and recording live casts together. You know, this could be you too. This could be you. How attractive is that as an option? Brilliant. So um every live cast we try to uh talk about what's in the news, we um try to talk about what's new with us as a ministry, and we also try to talk about our thorny questions. We released one yesterday. What was what was the title of the one yesterday?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it was Why Doesn't God Do Something About Suffering? And it was the second part of a little mini-series on suffering. Um so still part of our Thorny Question series, but we're doing a few on suffering, so we're probably getting probably got at least one more on suffering, haven't we?
SPEAKER_04I think maybe two more.
SPEAKER_02Maybe two more. There you go then. So uh we looked last week at how does a good God fit with a bad world? Mm-hmm. And then obviously, as I said, we picked up this week with well, why isn't God actually doing something about suffering? And it's quite a it's quite an asked question, isn't it? You know, like if there is a God, why doesn't he stop all the bad things? Basically, is the thing people ask.
SPEAKER_04It's always the number one thing. So um so this Saturday I'm going to the Unbelievable conference in in London, and we've been asked to do uh yeah, five of the hardest questions that people could possibly think of. There was a big poll, and uh yeah, so we're me and Andy Bannister from uh Solas. Uh we're gonna try and answer these top five ones when you know, surprise, surprise, you know, suffering. Suffering is right up there.
SPEAKER_02Um, it's like when you came and spoke at our youth event and we did the four questions, and there's this big pile of you know, ever all the other questions had a kind of few people had asked these. Yeah. And then the suffering one was like this big stack, wasn't it? And everything from, you know, why is there so much suffering, you know, kind of very generic, wide questions to why does my family hate me? You know, why why did you let my nan die? Yeah. You know, very specific. So all the same all different questions, but all getting to the same thing, really. Like, yeah, why is this bad stuff happening? Why aren't you doing anything about it?
SPEAKER_04And that's why we're gonna take four videos at least um on the subject. Last week we kind of thought about how if you go away from the Christian story, um, that doesn't give you the problem with evil that you you you need to be having. Um that that actually um it's a good thing to have a problem with evil. God's got a problem with evil. So Jesus actually invites you to have a problem with evil. So last episode we we thought about how when you walk away from Jesus, you no longer have the problem with suffering that you need. And then uh this week we've been thinking about how if you walk away from Jesus, you don't have the solution to suffering that we all crave. So let's have a look at uh this clip. Last time we saw that God has a problem with suffering, and that's a good thing. According to the Bible, God does not make his peace with a suffering world. Unfortunately, we do. Usually human beings do not have the problem with suffering that we should. So, for instance, if you believe in karma, you believe that all suffering is ultimately just, it's deserved, it's not technically a problem. To use the language of computer programming, suffering is not a bug, it's a feature.
SPEAKER_02It's similar if you believe in chaos, that is, if you believe that there is no ultimate power in charge of the cosmos. If you think everything is random, random, then nothing is wrong. And so, once again, suffering and the deadly struggle for survival is not a bug, it's a feature. So with these natural human responses to suffering, karma and chaos, we don't have the problem with suffering we should, and in this episode, we'll see that we don't have the solution to suffering that we crave. Karma says existence is suffering.
SPEAKER_04That's the f So yeah, we're about to talk about in the video, and we've got uh links to this in the comments if you're watching on Facebook, um, and we'll have links in the in the YouTube description as well. When we talk about karma and chaos, those those are kind of ways of summarizing a whole bunch of different worldviews, really. But um, karma is one way of thinking about the world in which um what goes around comes around. Chaos is sort of summarizing a more atheistic worldview in which everything's just random. Um so if it's if it's all about karma, we've already thought about how you don't have a problem with unjust suffering because there's no such thing as unjust suffering in karma. Everybody gets what's coming to them. Um but with karma as well, there's no real solution to suffering, and that's what we all crave. Um, because, you know, in the Four Noble Truths, yes, life is suffering. Um and you know, the goal is to get rid of suffering, but the way you get rid of suffering is to get rid of yourself. Um first of all, you do not attach to this suffering world, you detach, and then if you follow the eightfold path, then eventually you get to nirvana where you're blown out, where you dissolve into the ocean of being like a drop of water in the sea. Um and there's no more suffering in that sense, because everything's just been dissolved away, but there's no more you either. So um that was the big problem with sort of karma, doesn't give you a future. Um and then you were thinking about how chaos doesn't give you a future either.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, no, not at all. And uh, you know, often people who would espouse a kind of a view that it is all just completely random, the kind of things that say as, well, you know what, um don't worry, it can't get any worse. Right. Or things can only get better. Right. And and of course the reality is when if it is completely random and if if it really is chaos, if there is nothing else than these random forces, neither of those things are true. Right. It could get worse and it might never get any better. Right. You know, and I and we kind of it was a bit, you know, the section I think we in the video where we talked about this is is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, you know, about singing the sun will come out tomorrow and um all that, and but who knows, maybe we won't even wake up tomorrow, or maybe the sun will explode tomorrow and or it will it will one day be gone and so on. Yeah. Um but at least Star Wars is coming out, so you know, let's fuck up. Um but it made me think it it it reminded me of a few times when we've chatted about Stephen Fry, who obviously a very hardened atheist, known for his atheism, um, but also a sufferer from depression, and speaking about depression, you know, using this analogy of the weather, you know, some days it rains and you've got to accept you're gonna get wet. But I just remind myself that the sun will come out tomorrow. And I and it struck me to me that just seems like a very strange thing for him to say because I mean it for s as you know, for him, as someone who's struggles with depression, it feels like a very tone-deaf thing to say. You know, if if you were depressed and someone said to you, don't worry, the sun will come out tomorrow, that just feels like a very empty thing to say.
SPEAKER_04And for someone who suffers from depression to actually say that Especially if you know that they have no warrant for saying that.
SPEAKER_02Well, exactly, that's the thing. He's got no guarantee that it will. I mean, what'd you say? I mean, I suppose the there's been a number of people recently, haven't they? Like um Avici who who um took his own life. Um last year we had uh Chester Bennington from Lincoln Park, you know, and there's footage of him like on the day, you know, of that he took his life, like earlier in the day playing with his kids and his family and laughing and you know, but the sun didn't come out the next day because he didn't wake up the next day, you know, because he took his own life. And so it strikes me that it's a completely empty thing to say. But if you do believe everything's random, there's just no guarantee that the sun will come out again. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_04And it's just so different to if you want to give Christian hope to somebody and say, look, Jesus is risen, you know, thing we can say that things are gonna get better.
SPEAKER_02Well, absolutely, and that's why I love that like the clip we have at the ends with the Lord of the Rings bit, you know, this is just a passing shadow, you know, that a new day will come and and whatnot. Actually, in the Christian story, yeah, that's true, actually, this is just a passing shadow, and yeah, and and there you know, he does quote about the sun in there, and when the sun shines, it will shine out the clearer, yes. Um which we can say as Christians, yeah from a Christian perspective, yes, from an atheistic perspective, yeah. You can't at all.
SPEAKER_04Or you you uh but you want to, and you you most feel you have to. Yeah, you know, you're in the tunnel, there's light at the end of the tunnel, and I need to give somebody hope because hopeless suffering is just unbearable. So Stephen Freud wants to be able to comfort people, which is a good thing.
SPEAKER_02That's why it's so hard, like when you have you know people who friends who are not believers and maybe they lose someone.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_02Um I mean it's difficult when a Christian friend or you know loses a family member or whatever, and you don't want to just be the trite person, you know, just say like, oh well they're with the Lord now, you know. And because actually sometimes that can just be very trite and you know, actually you it's better to just acknowledge it is painful. Right. Um but at least you know when you go to a funeral of a Christian there's a hope. Right. Whereas when you go to the funerals of the non-Christian, or you're talking with a non-Christian friend who's lost a family member who wasn't a Christian. What you I I'm sitting there going, what am I supposed to say here? Because I think there is no hope for that. Very bleep. You know. Um and if you think that is all there is, and I I think basically most people probably people must know at REIT that I think we're very good at distracting ourselves from that hopelessness. Yeah. You know, that's why you know we fill our lives with all kinds of sex bods. Sex bodies. Yeah, yeah. I thought we were done with sex bodies, but no. Come on, boy, you're obsessed. But it's that thing I think people you park it over there, don't you? Yeah. The darkness, the void.
SPEAKER_04Um until you know, Prince dies, and you suddenly rediscover your faith because he says, I I I guess heaven needed one more lead guitarist singing.
SPEAKER_02Purple rain in heaven and Suddenly people rediscover.
SPEAKER_04But again, it's it's this groundless thing. We know that we need to offer people hope because hopelessness is just unbearable. And so we offer people a hope that is not grounded in anything real. And what's fascinating to me with Stephen Fry is it's a really good instinct that he has to want to comfort people. It's just that when he wants to comfort people, he needs them to stop thinking. He needs them to stop believing the atheistic world that he's telling them about, right? So actually, for Stephen Fry, for his own sense of mental health, he needs to detach himself from his atheism. He needs to think less about his worldview. Whereas for a Christian, if we're going through the pit and and we can go through the pit and Christians go through the pit just as much, but we actually need to ground ourselves further in our worldview rather than the other.
SPEAKER_02And I mean, you cling to Jesus more, don't you? Right in the midst of it. And I mean that's what again, that's what that video finishes with in the Lord of the Rings clip. Yeah. People are holding on to something. What are we holding on to? And we say, you know, Jesus says on the resurrection and the life. Right. Um, you know, do you believe this? Um and actually, yeah, that is what you hold on to. And I think actually, you know, when I've it's when you go through suffering that you know, so like I I think you you cling to Jesus more in the in the suffering, don't you, perhaps, than when you're everything's just good and going well. Absolutely. You know, and obviously that's not how it should be, in the sense that, you know, we should be clinging to Jesus all the time. Right. Um but it's easy to kind of get comfortable.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I mean there's a you know, I think fa when we faced uh difficult things, um there's a there's a comfort in knowing that it's not it's not random. Right. You know. Right. You know. So I mean, you know, given things that have happened to us like recently and and and doctors have said to us, Oh, it's just random, you can't predict these things. Right. In a sense, you know, from a worldly point of view, it is random, you know, these things do just happen. But it wasn't random, you know, in the sense that we know, oh no, God's in control, and that's a that's a good thing, you know. And I think actually sometimes it's pushing into a different territory slightly here, but sometimes Christians haven't dealt with that idea that God is in control of all the suffering that goes on.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_02Um I and but when I've preached on it and I've said you know God is in control of all those things, um, you might I think I say you might not like the sound of that, but imagine the imagine the alternative that God is not in control of any of this bad stuff that's happening.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um that's that's the real yeah, that's a real nightmare.
SPEAKER_04It's asleep at the wheel or you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, so it's much better for us as Christians to know God is in control.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that actually we know there is a path out the other side.
SPEAKER_04Right. Um and that the way that He's bringing us through that is through suffering.
SPEAKER_02You know, and that is the pattern of Christ, it's the pattern of a Christian life, you know.
SPEAKER_04We would wish that it was a different way, but like what do we know? What do we know? Apparent apparently the way to God's good future is through the Valley of the Shadow, and and the way to resurrection is the cross, apparently. Um but in that way we can know fellowship with the Son of God even more.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So we've got lots more to say about suffering. Um we'll probably have two more um thorny questions on it, at least. So that means uh another couple of live casts to to think these things through. Um why don't you get in touch in comments? Let it let us know what it is that sustains you in suffering um and uh how you would like us to address these issues. Uh plenty more thorny questions to ask. And if you've got ones that you'd want uh Paul and I to address, then do get in touch in comments and we'll try and have a go. Through the medium of sock puppets. Through the medium of sock puppets. You could set us a challenge. Yes. The problem of suffering discussed by sock puppets. Very good. Well, pleasure to be with you guys. And uh do subscribe uh on YouTube, do like us on Facebook, uh, do subscribe to our podcast, and you'll get all this audio, but without our lovely visages. But uh nonetheless, you can you can play us at double the speed as well. Yeah, that's true. Get us done on our podcast. So that's that's one bonus. Brilliant. And uh I'll let you know next week how the unbelievable conference goes on Saturday. Still tickets available. Um go to uh Premier Radio and you'll just you'll discover the unbelievable conference there. And uh might see you there on Saturday, but um otherwise, I guess we'll see you all on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. All right, God bless. See ya.