The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Social media users have been reportedly misunderstanding one another's cultural contexts. Just imagine it, the very idea. Every Brit I know thinks of Americans as bonkers, and every American that I'm friends with regards Brits as bananas. Brits wonder whether the US of A has lost its collective mind over guns, while Americans are convinced that Brits are dead-eyed slaves of an ever-increasing state intent on owning and disposing of our children. If Britain were to direct America the movie, it would be a Wild West shoot-em-up in which crazed freedom lovers shred each other with AR-15s, crying, America! If America were to direct Britain the movie, it would be a dystopian sci-fi where grey men in suits called Ian calmly requisition children from their cockney parents who complain, this is bang out of order. Both caricatures are, of course, 100% correct, and as an Australian, I say apox on both your houses. You're both right. Not about yourselves, you're largely deluded about yourselves, but you're both on the money when it comes to the madness of those fools on the other side of the pond. It seems to me that America and Britain are both addicts, but they're addicted to different substances. America prefers the cocaine-like myth of violence. Britain is hooked on a heroin-like salvation by the state, but both are junkies. You know that you're addicted when uh when you turn to your problem as though it were your solution. Hung over, have another drink. In debt to the casino, gamble your way out. Addictions dress themselves up as the answer when underneath they are the problem. This is precisely what we see in, for instance, the US with gun violence. School shootings, I know, arm the teachers. You know you're addicted when you turn to your problem as though it were your solution. Now listen, I know the problem goes deeper than gun ownership, I know. I know it won't be solved by more laws and confiscations, but hear me out, it goes deeper than one-off mental health issues, too. There is a profound spiritual problem in a culture where nihilism so grips people that increasing numbers want to end everything in a hail of bullets. But the myth of violence, the myth that our troubles are solved by a muscle-bound hero with an Uzi, that's at the heart of the problem. And multiplying the lethal force out there in the community is to feed the problem, not to counter it. You're an addict, America, and consider this your intervention. At this point, the Brits are saying, preach it, brother. Well, let me turn to you. In Britain, the drug of choice is the state. My favorite example is when the news ever reports on the obesity epidemic. What is the proposed solution? The state steps in and says, I can fix obesity. Really? The government can fix obesity. Yeah, they say, let's have, oh, I don't know, some kind of tax. It'll be a wonderful tax, the sweetest tax ever, a sugar tax. That's how they will solve the problem. We give them our money. That sounds like pretty much their solution to everything. Like the NHS. When the news reports that the NHS is the envy of the world, it's really not. It simultaneously tells us that it is profoundly broken. Never mind how both those things can be the case. We then ask, what is the solution? And the solution apparently is more NHS, a bigger NHS. What else could there possibly be? Literally no one can imagine anything other than an increasing megalith called the National Health Service. At this point, the Brits are saying, Did he just criticize the National Health Service? Maybe I did. Is that allowed? How does the old quote go? So find out who rules your culture. Just ask, who are you not able to criticize? And without doubt, in the UK you are not able to criticize the NHS. This doesn't mean that the American healthcare system is the solution. It's really not. If I got sick in America, I couldn't afford the bills. If I get sick in Britain, I can't afford the 17-year waiting lists. But here's a thought: it might not be a straight choice between Britain and the US. There are 193 other countries in the world. Just saying. But when Americans look into the UK and see a sick child, Alfie Evans, refused care by a hospital and then held against the parents' wishes with the judiciary siding against the family, and then when the apparatus of state power is turned up to eleven, with rows of police standing guard outside the hospital to ensure that the child is protected from his parents, who are trying, however poorly, however tragically, to make a stand for life, well, those crazy Yanks against uh across the pond, they get it in their head that the state might be overstepping their God-given boundaries. Is it possible that the Americans have a point? But then what do the Americans suggest? I'm not making this up. Prominent pro-gun activists, uh, active advocates in the States have said that if Alfie was their son, they would go to a hospital with a gun and bust him out of there. And at the same time, Brits want to go to America and have the state solve all the gun problems by taking all the guns at the point of a gun. It's crack addicts offering heroin addicts crack, and heroin addicts offering crack addicts heroin. Come away with me, children. Come away to a place where the myth of violence is overturned by cheek turning love, and where the smothering domination of the state is replaced by a community of grace. Come away to the kingdom of God where Jesus says, put away your sword. The sword of violence, the sword of state power, put away your sword and live free. It's April the 30th. This is Speak Life, and you're watching the live cast. I think I probably pussyfooted around some of those topics, but uh we might we might be able to unpack some of these things. Um and uh and by the way, the the thing that's running along the bottom of of uh this feed, is that is that going out on uh on Speak Life? Because uh that needs to be changed, doesn't it? Because James Carey is not on this week, he was on last week.
SPEAKER_02Uh giving you go check that out there, you can find it on YouTube.
SPEAKER_03Count Dankular. Count Dankula. Yeah. Commenting on free speech and comedy. That was brilliant, and uh yeah, catch up with that episode. Um but uh in this episode, joined by Paul Feasy. Say hello, Paul. Hello, Paul. Yeah, and uh Andy Brinkley is back from uh Outer Space where he's been Yeah, there he is! There he is. There he is. We didn't know he had a selfie cam. And he's in charge of the selfie cam. So thank goodness. He can he can turn back to himself at any point. And uh great to have Andy after Sabbatical, where he sabbathed well, I hope. And uh we are here, we're gonna discuss uh a few different things. Um Paul can ask me how I could possibly defend that rant uh that uh began the program, and then we can talk a little bit about the Alfie Evans case, uh, but also we want to talk about uh our thorny questions. In fact, we've we've done a couple of thorny questions. These are our videos that we release on Monday nights, uh, where we address uh difficult questions about the Christian faith, and we've been thinking about other religions.
SPEAKER_02So we'll be thinking about uh Yeah, and we were gonna talk about that last week, weren't we? We didn't quite get around to it. So hopefully we'll definitely get around to it today.
SPEAKER_03This week it is. Rich Pitt has weighed in on Facebook saying strong hoodie. Um do you mean mine, Rich? Because it's I'm not sure if this is a hoodie. Or probably does he mean Paul's.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. That was uh that was a birthday this was a birthday present from uh my good lady wife.
SPEAKER_03Ah, very good. Yeah. Very nice to have a positive mention of your wife in the podcast. One that you can point her to, where she reminds you of the other ones.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, when she appeared that last time and you said she'd appeared, and I was like, oh no. And uh I said, Oh, you see and she was like, No, I didn't even see it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, really? It was just on in the background.
SPEAKER_02I think she just kind of checked in and was like, nah, I can't be bored.
SPEAKER_03Is that I hope people are not just having this on in the background.
SPEAKER_02I I hope this needs to be engaged with at least.
SPEAKER_03Weighty Put down your Xbox controller and listen with all your attention. Yeah, turn off loose women.
SPEAKER_02Is that what we're competing with? Are we competing with loose women? We're like the Christian male equivalent of loose women.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Glenn and Paul are competing with loose women. That's a phrase that could be taken out of context. Absolutely. Earlier today, we um when we pray together in the mornings at Speak Life, we have a little um sort of prayer journal where we write down prayer requests and Andy coming back from holiday saw that last week uh we were praying for Glenn Colon, Sex and Peace. Um not your colon.
SPEAKER_04Something else again.
SPEAKER_03That's something very different. So, yes, but that was two talks that I was giving. One was on sex and one was on peace. But again, that could be taken out of content. In many ways, yep. Yeah. So Jo Larkam says she's watching Peter Rabbit. Peter Rabbit. Oh, is that the um Peter Rabbit? Oh, not the film. Oh, the film. Oh yeah, the film.
SPEAKER_02No tell me. She's not in the cinema watching the film and the lifeguard.
SPEAKER_03This is breaking Simon Mayo's uh etiquette and uh It was very controversial, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02The Peter Rabbit film. Because there was the scene where um some rabbits threw berries at a another rabbit that was allergic to them or caused a big stir because they said it was influencing children, you know, to throw nuts at people or something. I don't know, like genuinely low people were very app and armed about it.
SPEAKER_03Isn't that interesting? Because um Peter Rabbit's father was put in a pie by Mr. McGregor. No one back than I Nobody cares about the cisgendered straight white rabbit, do they? But you know, when the allergy victim is plays the victim card. Um no, Glenn's right. Oh, which one did I say? Oh, the TV one. So you're watching the TV version. Yeah, we watch the TV version.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, no. I don't even think the other one's out released yet on DVD.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so Ruby, my three-year-old, she's always, you know, I'm Peter Rabbit, Glenn, you're Benjamin, and Mummy is Mr. McGregor. Glenn. No, it's just very informal, Mummy and Glenn. Who does she love? Who's this guy? I don't know. Mummy calls him Glenn. But yeah, but my my wife is not best pleased that yeah, it's always Glenn. Daddy, you can be Benjamin and Mummy will be Mr. McGregor. She's always Mr. McGregor. Right, okay. Can Mummy be Lily? No. Mummy's Mr. McGregor. She's gonna put us in a pie. But yeah, isn't that interesting about children's stuff? Like, what is it that's out of bounds? Once you've anthropomorphised these creatures, um apparently it's okay for one to eat another. Even though, like, to all intents and purposes, Peter is a human, really. And his dad was cannibalized by this monster.
SPEAKER_02And you sit through I've sat through some Peter Rabbit with my kids, and you know, Mr. Fox, or whatever he's called, is always always trying to eat the rabbits. Yeah. And you think, I mean, this is really horrific when you really boil it down, you know, to what's going on here. They're running for their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Don't really boil it down.
SPEAKER_03No, no, you want to saute it with some garlic and peppers. But I mean we we watched we watched this Pixar film, I forget the name of it, but um, it was basically all about these dinosaurs. And um we were we were assured by the last dinosaur, is it now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe I've seen that one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. We were assured by everybody. Oh, it'd be fine for a three-year-old.
SPEAKER_02Oh, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And but literally it's it's all about this journey. Like, first of all, the the dinosaur's dad dies, and then it's a journey home from that catastrophe. And it's just it's just this series of kind of battles with basically these other dinosaurs that are trying to tear other dinosaurs limb from limb. Yeah. Which is like if if you keep everything in the realm of the animal kingdom, I guess that is nature, red in tooth and claw. But when you turn those animals into people, and then it's people who are literally ripping the heads off other people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And Ruby was just going, What's happening?
SPEAKER_02Well, and you know the trailers do say contains mild peril. Yeah. So, you know, the warnings were there for you.
SPEAKER_03It might have been a bit much for a three-year-old. Does this make us bad parents? I don't know. Will the state take our child away? We're gonna talk about that later on.
SPEAKER_02Will the state lots of things that make us bad parents, but that's probably the least of our worries. But the thing is, see, my our one of my daughters, and she's got um uh I I want to say she's a little bit morbid, like 'cause we went to the natural history museum the other week. Okay. Uh which she has been telling everybody we went to the dead zoo. That's more true than she knows. Went to the dead zoo. And I think it's it's raised all these questions because like there's a there's a two giraffes uh next to each other, and one's like, you know, just the normal looking giraffe, although dead, obviously. Right. And the other one, well they're both dead. Um it's just a skeleton.
SPEAKER_03That would be so cruel on the live one. Like this is you in about five years.
SPEAKER_02The other one's just a skeleton, and so she's going, Where's the skin? Right. Where's the skin gone? Oh well, you know, that one there, that one well they they died, and then that one they stuffed it, and this one, and that's just a skeleton. And then she's going, When we die, will our skin come off? And we're gonna go, I'm going, oh my god, I don't know how to do Job nineteen. You're gonna rotate.
SPEAKER_03You took it straight to Job 19 Even though my skin shall you know, yes in my flesh I shall see God, I shall see him, and not another. I'm sure you quoted that. I just said the straight out. Job and she went, fine. Oh, the resurrection, yes. Um good.
SPEAKER_02What were we talking about? No idea. No idea. Pixar dinosaurs, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um it was Joe Larkham's Joe Larkham's fault. I love that now she just has this contextless like quotes that we can quote her on like forever. No, Glenn's right. I'm gonna have a t-shirt made of that. No, Glenn's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like the reviews. No, Glenn is right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's how I that's how I roll. Um so yeah, we're gonna talk about a number of different things. So I we started off the show with a bit of a rant. I I rant. You did. I rant. It's my rant. Um speaking as an Australian who just gets, you know, I part part of me just gets bugged by Americans in the US thinking that they're the only two, you know, kind of options in the world. Like, for instance, if you ever say anything bad about the NHS, people are like, oh, but you don't want to go to America, do you? And you're like, yeah, there are literally 193 other countries in the world where there's a health system that's actually functioning as opposed to the NHS. But you know, which is not to say I have anything against those who live in the NHS and work in the NHS and that I've benefited from the NHS and all that, but is it the only way of organizing a society? Presumably not. See, you can't even say no to that. You're so nervous. The NHS is such an idol. It is like as good it is, and and idols all it like to have an idol needs to be a good thing, right? If you're going to idolise something, it's always got to be something that provides for you and protects for you and does good in your life. But sometimes you can elevate a good thing into a god thing, and at that point it becomes an idol, right? So I'm not saying the NHS is not a good thing, it's a wonderful thing. Backcracking there. Discovering myself because I'm a coward. But the NHS is a good thing. But you know that it is being elevated into the space of a God thing when you literally can't say a single word against it. Like, and it's just fascinating for me. Like you watch you watch I was watching Goggle Box uh at one point, and everybody on Goggle Box was watching um Born One Born Every Minute.
SPEAKER_02They were watching a rerun of Goggle Box, weren't they? God inside inception. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That will be season twelve of Goggle Box. Um Google Box Squared. And so so they were watching One Born Every Minute, and basically there was a a difficult pregnancy, and the child came out and it was fine. And it just cut to all these different living rooms in which everyone in Britain was saying, Aren't the NHS wonderful? And and just, oh, and and suddenly all the praise goes to the NHS, and you just think, like, like, is this the only health service in the world? But I I honestly think British people think that in every other society on earth that people just have like babies.
SPEAKER_02People don't have babies back instead of cars. They don't know and they don't even have it. It doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_03Uh Amy Robinson says Glenn Scrivener is watching with you. Well, that's surreal.
SPEAKER_02That's what he said when I logged in to have a look at if we were going, it said Glenn Scriver Glen Gl Glenn Scrivener's watching with me.
SPEAKER_03Well I always ask, who's watching the watches? Yeah. Glenn Scrivener is.
SPEAKER_02Who watches the watchmen? Yeah. I wondered whether though it was just because we were like admins, we could see each other, but clearly everybody can see you.
SPEAKER_03Well, I don't you know, I don't I don't want to just broadcast to you. I want to be with you in your experience of the live cast, because that's Christline. Do you see how I can justify anything theologically? Absolutely, absolutely. Um my rant about America and the st and and and the UK is is just basically that everybody's wrong.
SPEAKER_02It was good that you chose to rant about two very small nations that we don't have much of an audience with either.
SPEAKER_03Which is pretty much ninety percent of our audience with Speak Life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02On on non-controversial topics, which is really good as well. Yeah. I was feeling encouraged about stepping into this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. The NHS versus the NRA. Um Go to it. Destroy them both. Um because everybody's wrong except Glenn. Glenn is right. Glenn is right. That is the quote. Yeah. No, what was the uh the precise quote isn't no Glenn's right. Yeah. Um well perhaps we can get into these issues. Perhaps one way of getting into them is by talking about the Alfie Evans um case. And very s very sadly, very tragically, uh Alfie died uh this week. And um really, I mean, I've been praying um for Alfie and his parents, and I'm I'm sure uh many of our listeners and watchers have been uh praying for Alfie and his parents and for the hospital and for the staff in in what it was just uh uh an impossible situation for everybody, where the temperature was just turned up. Um and it was often turned up by people trying to score points in what was ultimately uh a situation of pastoral care. Um and certainly we don't want to do that as we as we talk about issues, and we'll we'll certainly circle round to deal with this as the pastoral issue that it is. And let's let's not kind of weaponize a tragedy uh in order to score points. That's um that is not uh the right legacy from this tragedy. But I I did want to talk about a a couple of things um as we think about um Alfie Evans and this case. Um a couple of things that I think um are warnings to us, and then a couple of things that I think um give us hope from a Christian perspective. Um and I think the couple of things that are warning uh warnings to us is I d I did see uh a dangerous contest between state power and parental power. Like I I did see that. Um and online I see two counterarguments to that. So so whenever somebody says this is just a straightforward and ugly case of the state, you know, just allowing a child to die and the parents having no power and and the state trumps the power of the parents, um two counter-arguments to that that I saw um online. One one was um no, it's not the state stepping in, it was the judiciary, um, and it was the judiciary arbitrating between doctors and parents. And that's that that is an important qualification to make, uh, but I think that is still taking control out of the parents' hands. Um just it is, it is taking the control out of the parents' hands, and it's making three parties, it's making the child, the parents, and the doctors, and maybe that's a good thing, but let's just think about that. If the child is is uh a distinct party, the parents are a distinct party, the doctors are a distinct party, who is it who presumes to speak for the child? On what basis and with what priorities? And I think at that stage, um obviously the priorities and and the basis on which the child's rights are spoken for, if that is assumed by the judiciary, then then that is the state kind of stepping in and and outweighing um the the place of the child in in the family. So I I think there is I think there is a danger here of state power trumping parental uh responsibilities. Um at that stage, people then come back and they say, well, surely there are cases where the state should step in. Um children are taken into care, baby P should have been taken into care. Uh you know, the the parents who abused Baby P um completely forfeited their rights to taking care of that child, and they sh that child should have been taken into care. Absolutely. I completely agree. But notice that in that instance, the default is that the responsibility for the child lies with the parents. And the state steps in absolutely when certain lines are crossed. Um so I think we need to we need to you know maintain that. And then some people say, well, well, don't you know that Jehovah's Witnesses they they have different religious beliefs, and for instance, they want to refuse um blood products for their children. Um, should the state step in and give the child a blood transfusion, even against the parents' wishes? And I would say yes. I would say yes. But in that instance, what you are doing is for the sake of life, for the sake of having a chance at life, the state should step in and stand against the parents whose medical option would stand against life, right? So in that in that case, the state steps in for life and the parents are standing against Life in that instance. We've got the exact opposite with a case like Alfie Evans. Now let's let's not talk about, you know, March and April. Let's talk about February when there was more of a chance, when, or or at least we thought there was more of a chance. Let's talk about back in February when we still didn't know what the condition was that Alfie had, and we still don't know what the condition that Alfie Evans had. Back in February, when there was more of a chance, wouldn't the parents coming in saying, no, we want to, you know, we all want to look to other options outside this hospital, wouldn't that have been more like the state in the state versus the Jehovah's Witness option? You know, actually in this case, aren't the states in in the Alfie Evans case, aren't the state actually playing the role of the Jehovah's Witnesses in that case and saying, no, no, no, for these reasons we are not going to try to intervene for the sake of life? So yeah, I I think I think there are important nuances to make about this. Um but I do I do think this is a this represents a worrying trend in which state authority is trumping the rights of parents. Um and children I think naturally belong in in the context of the of the family and in the context of a society, and then, you know, up the up the chain to to citizens of a state. But I but I think first and foremost children belong in families and they should have the first say. So I think that's that's one issue that's really important to to point out. Um another another issue that that I think I I'm worried by is if the reason for withholding treatment for Alfie is purely um there is pain or that there would be pain if he was moved from one hospital to another, um, I'm worried about pain itself being seen as the issue in determining the quality of life and that the quality of life determines whether somebody lives or dies. Um and I I just think if if we have a purely secular and materialistic assessment of the value of someone's life, and if that value is tied to the amount of suffering that that person feels, I think that's a dangerous highest ideal to have. Because if your highest ideal is to eliminate suffering, then you will be committed to eliminating the sufferer. And I think that's a very dangerous thing. I think that's that's that's the argument for euthanasia, really. We must eliminate suffering, and therefore we eliminate the sufferer themselves. So uh yeah, so I'm I'm worried about those those two things, really. Um but but in all but in all this, um I think Peter Old uh wrote a really brilliant uh article on this um uh for Premier, and we've put a link in the um uh in the comments on the live cast here on Facebook, and uh he kind of said now is the time to step back from the battle lines and to to and this was written on Friday before Alfie died, but but but to really um to offer Charlie uh not Charlie to offer Alfie to God and and see what God does of things because God is the God of resurrection who works through death and out the other side. Uh let's not draw the battle lines. And and I think, you know, the number one thing that we should really be talking about with Alfie Evans is is that isn't this a reminder that we are mortal and that nothing can change that? Not not a different hospital, not a different health service, not a campaign, not a petition, not a different judicial system, not a different governmental arrangement, not the wishes of the parents, not the wishes of the doctors, not the wishes of the judges, not the wishes of the state. Uh nothing stops this thing called death. Um and that it that is the real tragedy that I think all of us kind of want to resist. And some of us want to resist it um in one way and some of us want to resist it in the other way, but but really until you've diagnosed the problem as something for which only the resurrection of Jesus is the answer, you haven't really diagnosed the the heart of the problem. The heart of the problem is our mortality, um, and only Jesus uh offers the solution. So that's that's why we pray for have pre-praying for Alfie. That's why we continue to pray um for the family. And I think that's that's the thing I want to take away from the from the whole incident is nothing stops this thing called death except a savior called Jesus, you know, and he he is our one and only hope. And above all the other shrieking and all the other you know culture wars that go on and and battle lines drawn on both sides, um, let's let's turn to prayer and let's turn to the only one who's actually got a solution to the biggest problem we have, which is death. That's all I wanted to say about Alfie. Poor little Tyke. Poor little Tyke. Um but we've got good news, and this is why the church has got good news and and and why above and beyond trying to make points about you know a child belongs within the family, not so much under state control, and above and beyond all the points we want to make about you know the value of life is not tied to suffering or not. Above and beyond all those points, we we just want to be about preaching the gospel. Um because you know who knows the the you know the genuineness of the the faith of the parents of uh of Alfie Evans and and and all that, but you know, their great hope, Christianly speaking, and and and you know, they um they do claim to be Christians, but their their great hope Christianly speaking is to to hold their child again, you know, and that is the Christian hope. Um not just to rearrange state power, but to the resurrection of all things. So that's that's what we continue to focus on. That's that's why you know our our great mission here is not to speak politically about the uh NHS or the NRA or any any of those things, but to you know, to really speak good news, the good news of Jesus, who actually pioneered a path through death and out the other side, where he welcomes us all home as children into his arms. That's that's the good news. So that's all I wanted to say about that. Um we talk about let's see if there's uh are there any comments on here? Um while I'm looking, let's let's talk about um the uh the thorny question for these last couple of weeks. What are we what have we been thinking about for these last couple of weeks, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so uh the last little series we've done on thorny questions, we've been thinking about other faiths. And we've kind of approached that from two angles. So the first uh week, so you if you haven't seen the videos, by the way, you can pick them up on YouTube or you should be able to find them on our Facebook page, find the video in the video section. Uh I think there's a playlist and it should be up to date. Um the angle we approached it from in the first video was is it arrogant to say that Christianity is right? Mm-hmm. And then we came back for a second week to uh just discuss the question, well, aren't all religions the same anyway?
SPEAKER_03Right. And our answer to those are no. Um and no, but we No and no. We took a little longer than that uh to to s uh to say our answers. Um should we have a look at a little clip from uh the second one? I think it's the second one, yes. Aren't all religions the same? With good old William Shatner.
SPEAKER_02Last week we saw a famous illustration for understanding world religions, the blind men and the elephants. This week, let's think of another illustration, the paths up the mountain.
SPEAKER_00Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain. Why is he climbing a mountain? Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain, why is he climbing a mountain?
SPEAKER_02It's common to think of religions as like paths up a mountain, and they all ultimately get you to the top. God, heaven, enlightenment, whatever. But they just take different paths to get there. One of the big problems with this illustration is something we touched on last week. It's arrogant. Because if you think that you know all religions get to the top, then you're claiming to have a god's eye view on a mountain. You're claiming to be at the top. Claiming that all religions are equal looks like a humble view, but you're actually claiming a perspective superior to all religions. It's incredibly arrogant.
SPEAKER_03But there's another problem with the illustration. The problem is there is no mountain. World religions just don't share a basically similar understanding of the world, of the afterlife of God. Let me show you by doing some very basic comparative religion. Here are the top five beliefs in the world: Christianity, Islam, the atheists, uh, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Together, this top five accounts for roughly 90% of the world's population. Well then, let's ask these five worldviews some basic questions. Question one. So at that point we then go through a number of different questions that the different uh religions uh have an opinion on, and uh with every single question, um they have wildly different versions of reality.
SPEAKER_02Yep, absolutely. And it was I enjoyed doing these videos because I think one of the things the thing I I do hear a lot that kind of, well aren't all religions the same anyway, even even Christians saying things like, Oh well, I'm pretty sure that um you know the Muslim god Allah and like God in the Bible, they're just the same God but by different names. And you're like, have you have you read any of this? Right. Like either i either text, you know. Right. And and I I mean I don't think it's I don't think it's being too strong to say that. I think if you if you are saying that all religions are the same, it's either um you're either being dishonest or you're just ignorant. Right.
SPEAKER_03Um largely it's ignorance, would you say? Or I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I think it's probably ignorance, yeah, more than anything.
SPEAKER_03In the general population it's largely ignorance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Maybe in the maybe in the charged world of you know, academia and debate, I'm sure there's people who want to maliciously twist to you know, just say, Oh look, this is all the same. I think for most people it is just pure ignorance.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um a lot of people they they want to say it's the same because they what's interesting is they can't imagine how on earth these two great religions can get on unless we assume that they're basically the same, just with a bit different, you know, clothes on. Yeah. Um which I think is I think that's a disturbing assumption. Like the only way we can actually love one another is if we agree with one another. Like, well, I I think I can disagree and still love. Is that possible? You know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um and I think I think people Yeah, people just hate this idea of you know that people being divided up, don't they? So I remember when we went back to we went to the Mind, Body and Soul convention or whatever it was called, Mind, Body and Spirit or something, back at Alexandria Palace, which for those who have maybe not who weren't listening to the podcast and things back in those days, um back in the days, all of October. Um it was it's a big uh kind of spiritual kind of convention uh held is it every year at Alexandra Palace? New Age thing. So I mean we had there we were on a stand there, um, but there was all kinds of stuff there from yoga to Reiki healing, crystals and you know, all kinds of stuff to recycling and just normal stuff that you bat an eye lid at. Yeah. Um but you know, sitting down with people having a chat, you know, about everyone's looking for a spiritual conversation. So people are coming and you're talking to them, sharing the gospel with them, and the thing I came up against most was a lot of people kind of very positive about what you're saying, they're going, hang on, so are you saying that like Christianity is the only way? So you're saying it's only Jesus. Um like, well, yeah, Jesus says I'm the way, the truth and life, no one comes to the Father except through me. Oh, I don't agree with that. And it's very much like there was that whole thing that came up a lot of times, uh that kind of that pushing back on that, but also, well, I think all religions I think everyone's aiming for the same thing, really.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Um Which is why it's very, very important to actually point out like what are the teachings of all these different religions? Because in the abstract, you could you could almost believe, yeah, different religions are basically expressions of the same beliefs, but they're just dressed up in different clothing. Um until you read any of the texts. Yep. And and and that's that's why it's important, you know. So so we go through, you know, who is God, and with Christianity, it's emphatically father, son, and spirit bound together in love, emphatically in in the Quran, say you're not three, you know, God is not a father, he has no son.
SPEAKER_02But so it's interesting, so in those cases where you have got differing teachings, because there were a few where I, you know, I I can't remember exactly what I brought up, but I said, Oh, you know, Christianity says this and Islam says this, and these are very different things. Um even then people will not say people don't want to say one is right and one is wrong. Um, you know, say, oh well that's what they believe and that's okay. Well hang on, that you know, people can believe, of course they can believe that, and I can believe what I believe, but we can't both be right, can we? Right. And people just really almost on the back foot, they just don't know how to engage with that. It's like, you know, it's very much your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth, and you can't.
SPEAKER_03I can't even acknowledge the distinctives and the differences. And Anthea Bisgroves just made a great comment. She said, it's it's like when people say, I really like you. I don't even see you as black. I get that a lot. I totally don't see you as black. You're the whitest white boy. But uh we can and she says we can only accept different people or viewpoints if we pretend that they aren't different. Like, yeah, I think that's a profound point. That yeah, why why can't we love a cross difference?
SPEAKER_02And I think I don't know if you I don't know if it came up in in one of our live casts, or maybe I'm not sure we do mention it in the video, but the thing you say about why do so many people here insist that you know all these other all these other religions are you know basically the same. Um I think you talk you call it something like a a type of imperialism, a type of totally colonialism. And even when we teach R in schools, it's like Islam and Hinduism are basically a bit like Christianity. A bit like Christian they're talking as if they're a bit like Christianity, but they just happen over there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah in other countries. And actually the reality is when you dig down, not even when you dig down, you don't need to dig down very far at all. You're like, they're completely different.
SPEAKER_03Totally they they don't even agree on what a religion is. Like I there's a there's a great line, I forget forget the author, but he but he said um you know it was it was news to five hundred million Indians that when the British, you know, uh like established themselves in India, that apparently they had a thing, this religion called you know Hinduism. For them, it was that was just what they did. Like, is this a religion? What exactly is a religion? And actually, you know, actually in the history of religions and in and in a lot of religious philosophy, it's basically let's just think of Christianity as the default thing. And therefore, oh, there are a bunch of Hindus and they wash themselves in the Ganges rib, let's call that a religion. They wouldn't call that a religion. And that that's kind of their way of life. And and we we assume that religion means a deity. And and most secular people, you you ask them, you know, what is a religion, and they say, Ah, it's belief in some kind of a deity. Well, how dare you? How very dare you? You know, like Buddhists largely are atheistic, you know, and there are there are all sorts of traditional Chinese religions that that do not believe in a deity at all. And you know, are they not welcome in the club? You know? Like, but it it's I think because in the West we've grown up under the shade of church spires, we imagine that when we encounter other faiths, they'll be basically Christian. But you know, you like to wash in the river Ganges, and we like the river Jordan, and that's the only difference. And it's just like, no, people are really, really different. And at the top of the mountain, who is God? Christianity, Trinity, Islam is whatever it is, it's not Trinity. Atheists say nobody. Hindus, they're like, well, there's this Brahmin, this impersonal one, and then there's like literally millions of gods. Um and so if you're a Hindu, you could you could be a monotheist, you could be a polytheist. There are non-theistic Hindus as well that just believe that you know God does not exist except in the mantra. And they're Hindus as well. Like, what what what's at the top of the mountain? Buddhists, they don't you know, most schools of Buddhism don't believe in God. What's at the top of the we don't even know what's on top of the mountain. It's like there is no mountain. Yeah, but isn't that really all just the same? Yeah, no god or millions of gods, or Allah or the Trinity.
SPEAKER_02I think these are all compatible in many ways.
SPEAKER_03But that's what it's like. That's what that is what you face. And isn't that person who says that they are standing above the mountain with the god's eye perspective?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, and that's the that I think that's really helpful. I mean, uh, we we use the elephant example, don't we? The kind of classic blind man, blind man and the elephants, and of course, you know, they're all the different religions, and one says, well, God is like a tree because he's got the leg and of the elephant, God is like a rope, he's got the tail, or God is like a snake, a trunk, or whatever it is. And um and of course the author of the poem saying, you know, well, actually, of course, they're all idiots because um I uh they're it's an elephant, it's all the same thing, but they've all got a different end of the stick, or the elephant. Yeah, and um and I remember it was Tim Keller who I first heard talking about that, I think, talking about how you know it people often accuse Christians of being very exclusive, but then you'd say, actually, people who hold that kind of view who say, Oh no, I think all religions are equal and valid and equally true, actually that is incredibly exclusive because you're saying, Well, you're not right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02In fact, all you people are wrong, yeah. But I'm the enlightened one, I'm the one who sees the big picture. Yeah. Um, and and particularly, you know, when we're thinking about uh arrogance, you know. I mean that is the most arrogant thing, isn't it? Yeah. So no, no, no, no, all these religions that have existed for so long, no no no, I have worked it out.
SPEAKER_03They're expressions of something that I comprehend within my own.
SPEAKER_02As Michelin Michelin Webb says, uh you've mused upon the divine for twenty five minutes and you think you've come up with some interesting ideas.
SPEAKER_03Like your internet assembled philosophy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a bit like that, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And it's like, you know, they they say to us, you know, it's it's arrogant to say that Jesus is the way, but why is it not arrogant to say that your way of conceiving of religions is the way?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know?
SPEAKER_02I think that's what we tried to bring out a bit with the stock puppets in the first book, didn't we?
SPEAKER_03That is such a a speak life thing to say. I think that point was put most poignantly in something drama.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So there could be more awards.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, something Oh remind me. I've got to I've got to apply for the Jerusalem Award. Remind me. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you have to apply for the awards? Do you've got to apply to submit? Yeah. So they do it the Oscars, or do they just do you have to write in and say, I think I should get one?
SPEAKER_03Steven Spielberg is like, please.
SPEAKER_02I think Jurassic Park was alright.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah, and okay, but I think positively. So we're gonna say, look, there's no mountain. Okay. It's it's basically okay, so Christianity's got a mountain here, Hinduism here, Buddhism here, atheism here. Yeah, and atheism is a religion, huh? Deal with it. Right. It's a it's a worldview, right? It's you know, you anyway, yeah, sure. Deal with it, right? But you've got all these different like mountains, and if you move towards the Christian one, you're moving away from these two. And if you move towards this one over here, you're moving away from these two, you know. It's that's the nature of truth, right? Like some things are true and some things are not, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd have said so. I mean, it's one of those things that you feel like you just feel we we're living in this bizarre age, haven't we? I think we talked about it when we did the post-truth stuff, you know. Um we just live in this bizarre age, don't we, where almost the idea of there being truth and absolute truth is seen as a bizarre idea and it's seen as a power play, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Whereas I think it's actually the opposite of a power play. If you get rid of truth, then everything else needs to fight it out. And it's about it's about a voice being louder.
SPEAKER_02Then it really is about who's the stronger, who's the bully in the playground, because whoever's the bigger person, the bigger, the bigger bully, is gonna win the fight, regardless of whether they're right or wrong.
SPEAKER_03If you've got a supervisor in the playground called Truth, then the supervisor can arbitrate between the squabbling children's. Just the dinner lady. If the dinner lady, the dinner lady of truth. Yeah. We need to do some sock puppet drama about that. Absolutely. Um Jonah Jacob has said all discussions should have puppet outlining drama. That'll be another t-shirt that uh that we wear. Um so but let's let's put a positive case for saying, okay, so I know that in inviting you to the Christian worldview, and by the way, uh a mountain is a really bad exact illustration for the Christians, but like climbing up the mountain is probably the exact opposite of Christianity. Christianity is the Son of God descending into the valley, right? But imagine that you come over to the Christian mountain. The Christian worldview. Let me, you know, the kettle's on, the weather's just fine, let me let me entice you over here. Because just on that question of who is God, like literally no one else can say that love is ultimate. Literally, no one. And you go to the mind body spirit, you know, convention, and a whole bunch of people, they all want they all want to say that love is ultimate, and that as as long as it's based in love, then you know, we're cool. Well, well then come on home, right? Come on home to to Jesus, where the Jesus God is the only God who says, Father, you loved me from before the foundation of the world. John 17, verse 24. You go across to to um Islam, and no, absolutely. You know, the there you know, Jesus is not the son of the Father, God is not Father, and there cannot be an eternally loving Allah because He's all by Himself. Yeah. So who is he loving? You come across to atheism and you ask, is love ultimate? No, it's it's it's a nice, you know, thin layer of icing on top of a whole bunch of dead rubble, right? But it's not ultimate. You you and you know, Brahman within Hinduism is is ultimately impersonal. Within Buddhism, the great hope is to be dissolved into the ocean of being like a drop of water in the sea, and that like love does not blown out. Nirvana means blown out, you know. And so like who who's the who's the person who's actually jumping up and down and saying no love is ultimate? It's Jesus. Yeah. At that point you go, all right, sign me up, you know, come on down. And and and why would it be surprising to us that it turns out, it turns out that the only religion in which God actually comes down to planet Earth and suffers on behalf of his creatures in order to bring them into his reality, the only religion that says that one might be the one, you know? It it seems like the God who is worthy of be called being called God is the God who would actually take responsibility for his handiwork, actually enter into it, take responsibility for it, suffer its curses, and rise again to offer all, you know, his his future. That's I mean, I don't know, it just seems to me that's that's the God who's gonna be worthy of being called God.
SPEAKER_02I suppose people people I think we mentioned it in the video, don't we? People turn around and say, well, hang on though, like but if if we're saying only Christianity is true, what's gonna happen to all those people who are good Muslims or good Hindus or good atheists or whatever it is, you know. Um and I think like I remember being in a a Gorilla Christian type situation with a a group of Christians from uh other churches. So a mixture of churches. And if you've ever done if you've if you do youth work or anything like that and you've done Gorilla Christian in a school, you'll know that basically RE departments basically what they do is they try and get people from different denominations, basically so they can pit you against each other as a way and sneer a little bit. Um and um most of the time you can let I I was happy to let things slide, you know, because we would have disagreements on particular issues, but you know, you're thinking, you know, the the main issues are you know the gospel, central gospel issues, you know. Right. Um and someone asked this kind of question about other faiths or what happens, you know. And I remember one guy just saying he said, Well, I think um he said, for example, if if you'd been a good Hindu, I think God would let you into heaven. Um and you're in that moment there, I was in this moment where I was just thinking, right, you're weighing up. You know, here's a classroom of non-Christians how how divisive are you gonna be here? And I kind of I just jumped I in the end I kind of went for it and I said, I'm gonna have to step in on this one. I said, I strongly disagree with what you've just said. Um and I said about you know, why would Jesus say, I'm the way, the truth and life, no one comes through me, unless of course you had to go through him. And what was the point of Jesus dying if you don't need even to trust in Jesus at all? Um and I can't remember how much I said, you know, basically I just kind of said I just completely disagree. Um and I said I I remember saying at one point, I don't want any of you to leave this room thinking that if I just am good, hopefully it'll all work out okay, because that's not at all what the Bible says.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Why why did he say good Hindu? Why didn't he say bad Hindu? Well Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But that's the thing as well, when people say, What about the person who's been a good whatever, or good this or good that? I mean, then you're already into the ca the the issue of well, you know, what's this category of good and how what is good enough? Right. Where are you drawing your line at what makes a good person and a bad person and and whatnot? So you're already getting into whole other issues of stuff, aren't you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah. So it it seem it seems like there's this there's this assumption that of course goodness is the measure of Well, and also I mean this came up, I got into a bit of a debate the other day.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I weighed in a little bit on Facebook, um, because someone had posted that clip that was doing the rounds of the the Pope. You've seen this clip with a little boy. Um And I think there were some there's some big issues in there, isn't there, that like, you know, if if you can stand up and say someone who is an atheist who presumably live their life in rejection of God, therefore, um if you can sim if you can turn around and say, Oh, but of course, you know, they were good because they got their kids baptized, therefore they're saved.
SPEAKER_03I mean Apparently 96% of uh parents in Italy baptize their children. Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's nice to know 96% of the population's go to heaven on the back of that, you know.
SPEAKER_03Um And because they're good. Yeah, because they did the baptisms.
SPEAKER_02I mean, there must have been a real weight off Jesus' shoulders that he didn't have to die for that ninety six.
SPEAKER_03And I really appreciate yeah, how you bring it back to that because I I think that's that's so vital to come back to what what would this mean for the cross? Let's just you know, if God is if if our picture of God is literally a bleeding sacrifice with his arms outstretched to the world dying for them, then what would it mean about the cross? To say that a good Hindu and not a bad Hindu, but a good Hindu ascends the hill. Well at that stage you're saying, well, why is the father sending the son down the hill into the valley, and all these other people are making their way up, and that apparently is the authorized way. And that so what kind of monster is God? Yeah. Who sends his son any other way?
SPEAKER_02Well, there is, but actually, um you could die in that. Yeah, can you die anyway, Jesus? It's a lovely gesture.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it'll look great on all the churches, those crucifixes, you know. Can you can you do it anyway?
SPEAKER_02And I mean I think i I don't know why I don't necessarily know why Christians want to kind of compromise on that necessarily, but I th maybe there's a there's a sense of if you say to a group of people, well no, if you don't trust Jesus, then that's it, you know, you're lost. Um that people are going to react very badly to that. I mean my response is, well, I mean, you might not like that, but at the end of the day, God says it doesn't have to be that way. It's it's not like you're all Right. You know, I mean the offer's being held out.
SPEAKER_03Right, and that's the thing. Like, like admit that you're in the valley and you're pretty much there, right?
SPEAKER_02So we're all we're all stuffed. Yes, your y your point is, yes, you are stuffed, but you don't have to be. It's not like God has just said, sorry, that's it, on your bike. Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. It's the simplest. Yeah. And it's the simplest thing in the world to be saved in the in the Christian in the Christian understanding. You know, so within atheism is no such thing as salvation, everyone gets death, you know, pole pot Mother Teresa, boom, you all get the same, right? But in these other religions where you've got like some kind of you know, heaven or hell or up or down or whatever, um, it's the simplest thing in the world in Christianity. It's like whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. You know, it's it it's admitting that you're in the valley and just saying, Lord, right? Um and and sometimes I do a thing where I just sort of say, well, let's let's look at um, can you trust the judge in all these other worldviews? Yeah. And we do this in the video. So in our you know, in the case of Allah, can you trust Allah the judge? Like not even Muhammad could trust that Allah would definitely be merciful to him, but he could not trust that. Um, you know, within atheism, you can't, you know, well, I guess you can trust that you're gonna get what's coming to you.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03Uh annihilation. And and then you got Hinduism, you know, can you can you trust the judge? Well, no, it's there's this merciless thing called karma, and you're going up and down based on it. So same with Buddhism. So um, you know, if you could pick a judge, wouldn't you pick the one who actually stepped down off the judgment seat, put himself in the dock, gave himself the harshest judgment so that no one need ever, ever go to you know, that's that's the that's the gospel. If you could I mean you can't elect a judge, he's kind of it's not a democracy, but if you could, you'd probably pick him, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. And it just it seems a strange thing to rage against rage against the judge. You know, say, oh, this is a terrible thing that this judgment will come down on people. It seems strange to rage against that when saying, but y but yeah, you're but the judge is also offering you a way out of that. Right. So And I guess the character of God issue though is, you know, what about someone who's not offered that?
SPEAKER_03You know, what about someone who knows nothing of the author of salvation? And and and at that stage I just kind of say, well, can we just trust the judge? You know, I'm not the judge, you're not the judge. Can we tr can we trust the judge to judge? Yeah. Um I don't I don't see anyone else who has proved themselves more trustworthy to be the judge than the one who has taken the judgment on our behalf.
SPEAKER_02So I think as well, that I mean just just going back into some of the you know what the difference is between religions. I think it's important for us as Christians to to know some of these differences a bit more. I mean So I'm I'm growing it concerns me to see a number of Christians who are sim who are I think with the the rise of radical Islam the appearance of radical Islam I think I think actually as Christians we need to need to face up to the fact that if we or we in the West need to start facing up to the fact that if you really boil down to what the Quran is talking about it it isn't like a lot of the Islam in this country that a lot of Islam in this country I mean the radical is a westernised kind of Islam um and I think we want to kind of s I think even within Christian circles there's this tendency to want to say, oh all religions are nice and fluffy and we can live alongside each other. Um and I think we need to face up to actually there were some really Yeah dark things in these areas as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Sharia supremacy and things and yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's not and it's not the I mean it's the the famous the the video, wasn't it? Was the famous Ben Affleck video? Can't remember who the other guy was. Sam Harris. And again, it's a a sheer refusal there on Affleck's part to face up to facts that he's being presented with for want of trying to be inclusive and politically correct.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Which is why doing comparative religion is is like a really good thing to do. And and and and I think just doing comparative religion also just helps with that question, like how can you say that only Jesus saves? How can you say that? And you say, Have you done any comparative religion? Um salvation within Islam is not even a category. There's not a word for salvation in the Quran. The closest word to salvation in the Quran is the word successful. You know, the successful get paradise. And the losers, literally the losers, um, you know, are for the flames. Um so the there is no salvation within that. There's no salvation within karmic religions. It's down to your karma. Like so, literally, like just do just do the comparative religion so that you can then say, yeah, no, literally, only Jesus saves. Like no one else is even offering what Jesus is offering. It really should be. If you do that. Amy Robinson's asked a couple of really great questions. Um one of them is if true religion really is looking after widows and orphans, uh, which is what it says in James, uh, then all the religions have a bit of that, don't they? And then she's put devil's advocate. Don't be his advocate, Amy, honestly.
SPEAKER_02Um I think I think well, I think the thing not just to that specific issue, but I think it's what we're not saying, and I don't and I think anyone, any Christian who said this would be a foolish, we're not saying that in other religions there are n there is not stuff that is good and true and right. Yeah. Um but of course what we're saying is we believe, of course, that actually Jesus is the true revelation. And so of course, that's not to say that you know, outside of the Christian faith, there are not things which are good and true and shadows, I suppose, of that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So uh totally I hope that was So I I think that that that just goes to show that we are living in Jesus' universe, right? Because actually looking after orphans, I keep coming back to Islam because that's the religion I know best outside of Christianity. Um I don't know Christianity a little better than Islam. But um But I've read the Quran a couple of times, and and Muhammad is dead set against um adoption. Dead set against. Um he had he had terrible experiences, never knew his dad, he was like shuffled around from carer to carer, and uh he is dead set against uh you know um adoption and that and that sort of thing. Um so but there are plenty of Muslims who do adopt, right? Yeah. And and I think that that is a sign of we live in a a reality in which we kind of know that love is ultimate and people belong in families and that sort of thing is a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Does that kind of work in in the case of atheism as well, in the sense that it it if we're if a truly consistent atheism would cling more tightly to a kind of survival of the fittest? So like those who are weak and whatnot should just be allowed to die off. Like, why do people give to charity? You know, I mean, what if you if if you if you if you truly just believe in survival of the fittest, nature is red and tooth and claw or evolution and that's how it goes, why not just let all the weak die off? Why give to charity?
SPEAKER_03Well, you could say that thick communities will survive better than you know that sort of thing. So yeah, I think you can make those arguments. But but I yeah, I I I would want to honour and praise looking after widows and orphans wherever I saw it. Um and then later on I'd want to have a conversation about oh, so do you think that um within Christianity? So we've got God the Son becomes the bridegroom to marry the the bride and and the widow becomes married, you know. Um God the Son becomes our brother and adopts us into the family. Don't you see how that instinct to take care of widows and orphans is a really profoundly Christian thing. Um and it's and at that stage you're saying things about God that a Muslim would never say. Right? God would not lower himself to the widow or the orphan. Right? Right? Yeah, exactly. Um Amy's other question is, and then we'll wrap up. Um said 1 Timothy 2 verse 4 says, God wants everyone to be saved, God isn't going to get what he wants. Um so I I think that's that's that's dealing with kind of three truths that I think are biblically taught and you need to hold on to them, but they don't seem to fit together. And I think those three truths are God wants everyone to be saved, he keeps saying it in 1 Timothy 2, he says it you know a dozen times throughout the Bible, he keeps on saying he wants to save everybody everybody. Um second truth is when he saves somebody, um it's not a cooperation, it's not a synergistic thing, and you know, God meets you half halfway. If he saves someone, he picks them out from the picks them up from the pit and deposits them in heaven. He saves them, he does it, he does the entire job. So God wants everyone to be saved. When he saves them, he does the whole job, and hell is populated. Right?
SPEAKER_02I think you know you've got the the stuff about is it Romans 9 or 10, objects of wrath.
SPEAKER_03Oh, Romans 9. Oh, we'll have to do a whole show on here. I mean, that's a whole other question.
SPEAKER_02I mean, this is why this is why I find these conversations very interesting and and and there's potential kind of lot of grenades locked into the Christian circle.
SPEAKER_03That's all we got time for, you know.
SPEAKER_02You know, um I think actually as we talk about suffering, you you get into some issues of this, perhaps, you know, of course, God's control and whatnot. You know, does calamity come upon any city unless God sends it? You know, who makes the blind blind, then mute mute, is it not I the Lord, he says to Moses, that kind of thing, isn't it? Which I've I've quoted those things as some Christians and it's really raised yeah, people got their backs up about it, basically. Right. Um it's just literally there in the scripture, isn't it? You know, and and I think there's you know there's maybe some interesting questions to burrow into on that front.
SPEAKER_03Let's let's do that. Let's do that. So thorny, uh thorny on that one. But I I just think I think those three things, God says he wants everyone to be saved, he keeps on saying it. Let's believe him. Um when he saves people, he does the entire job, he keeps saying that. And there is such a place as hell and it is populated. Yeah. And the Bible says those three things. And I think generally we're we're only able to hold on to two of those three things. Like, generally, like, so if you believe if you believe the first two, God wants everyone to be saved, and when he saves them, he does the entire job. Yeah, well then bye-bye hell. And you're pro you're Pope Francis, you know. You know, it is so fascinating. That it used to be a joke, is the Pope a Catholic? And you're like, I don't know. Actually, it's more of a riddle now. It's more of a riddle these days.
SPEAKER_02So I was just sniggering to myself because when we talk about like God doing the whole job, it made me think of that picture of the extension cord plugged into itself and that said that's Arminianism, just like powering yourself out of it.
SPEAKER_03But uh, you'll have to put that in the comments. So if you go for the first two, you've you've gone for universalism. If you go for one and three, if you go for God um wants to save everybody, but hell is populated, then you're probably more Arminian, um, because you you basically say God wants everyone to be saved, but other people kind of don't, and kind of you know he doesn't get what he wants, which is what Amy Robinson's um has said. So that's quoted for us to discuss. She's just being devil's advocate, which is fine.
SPEAKER_02I'm with Satan on this one. I'm gonna stand with him.
SPEAKER_01I shall be Jesus' advocate.
SPEAKER_02That's a quote out of context again, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03But if you if you go for two and three, um, where where you say that when God saves people, he does the entire job and hell is populated, then you might start to question does God want to save everybody? And that's the more the Calvinist position. And so I you know, I I I think I think the Bible says those all three things, and actually Calvinists, some Indians and and universalists manage to only cram two of them into their system and leave the leave the third one dangling.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Um and so I'm I'm more comfortable. I'm more comfortable in a Lutheran position, which I which I think is is more um it's more okay with logical inconsistencies. It's more okay with just saying, uh, the Bible says this and this. How are those two things both true? But you know this is my body. How is this how is this Christ's body? You know, it's just bread. I don't know, but he says it, so yeah. I think Lutherans are more comfortable with that. So I'm I'm more comfortable with let's just say all three things and you know, let logic take the highmost, basically. Um my goodness, it's 2.03. We rambled on that preamble banter when we did at the beginning. I don't think we did any banter. We but we went straight for the controversy. And uh um if you like this live cast, why don't you give it a share? Ask serious questions about yourself. Look at yourself in the mirror. What are you doing? Um give it a like on Facebook. Jana Jacobs says, looking forward to the puppet outline of the elect of God and God's presence in heaven and hell.
SPEAKER_02Start writing it straight away.
SPEAKER_03And uh yeah, do like us on um social media. I don't know. Just just like us. Like us. Do like us. Give us value. Fun us. And um this will come out as a podcast on Friday, shall we aim for that? And and uh onto YouTube at some point as well, so you can share it around the place. And uh we might even uh put the rant out there as well. Detach that and send it off onto the blogosphere.
SPEAKER_02Send it to uh NHS headquarters and the NRA. Just straight to them inbox.
SPEAKER_03Ben Shapiro and uh Diane Abbott. I don't know. And um yeah, I've enjoyed this lunchtime. Good.
SPEAKER_02I too have enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Well, thank you for your company, and uh we'll see you next week will be Monday as well, uh, rather than Tuesday. But um thanks. God bless. And until next time, keep speaking live.