The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Earlier this week, Shania Twain provoked outrage by expressing the wrong view. The wrong view was voiced by the Canadian singer in answer to a journalist's question about Donald Trump. The Guardian newspaper, in a bid to inject Donald Trump into every story in the news cycle, asked for Twain's opinion of the US President. This follows a pattern in which the media's celebrity-obsessed outrage is pitted against Donald Trump, an outrage-obsessed celebrity. This mixture of celebrity-obsessed outrage and an outrage-obsessed celebrity is, of course, a rancid cocktail of spite, shame, and cortisol swilled down by each of us as we scroll through our internet news feeds. This was the context in which Shania Twain was invited to comment on global politics. In ordinary circumstances, that sentence would sound absurd, yet we do in fact live in a world in which the highest office on earth is held by a reality TV star. So I guess all bets are off. Twain, caught off guard by the question, decided to answer it, venturing into realms significantly beyond her sphere of greatest competence, that is, listing things that don't impress her much. So the singer candidly proffered her own view of Donald Trump, which would be fine, except that it was the wrong view. Reflecting the outlook of fully half the US electorate, she said that she would have voted for the man sparking banshee-like howls across the Twitter sphere. The crisis has caused many social media users to question whether they can ever again trust the political opinions of pop stars. Many tweeters, having unfollowed every account that might possibly espouse the wrong view, found their safe spaces violated by Shania's triggering words. One devastated fan tweeted, and I'm not making this up, quote, Shania Twain came out as a sh as a Trump supporter. How could my mother betray me like this? This is the worst day of my life. In response, Twain issued a series of tweets apologizing profusely for espousing the wrong view. After seeking forgiveness, she wrote, I make music to bring people together. My path will always be one of inclusivity. Ah, inclusion, you see, a trending hashtag and our highest God. Onlookers were left to wonder whether it was Twain herself who was desperately seeking inclusion, offering to mouth whatever orthodoxies the baying crowd might demand. Since the singer has recanted the wrong view, the Twitch fork mob are largely placated. For now. With the boundaries of acceptable thought policed and transgressors shamed into submission, order has been restored to the Twitterverse. This, of course, is what is meant by inclusion. It's April 24th, this is Speak Life, and you're watching the live cast.
SPEAKER_10Do you have me the feeling it's gonna be one of those days, technology-wise, where nothing's gonna work and it's all going Pete Tong already?
SPEAKER_08How well have we moved this camera somehow as well in the space of or or somehow the the studio's rotated? I think it has.
SPEAKER_10We we have had um uh uh an absolute mare trying to get this all s stuff all sorted, and hence why at the beginning there I've played the wrong video or the unedited video. The unedited um yeah.
SPEAKER_08Because usually it's just one takes scribbs. Normally it's so slick, you know.
SPEAKER_09That's my nickname.
SPEAKER_08One one takes scribbs.
SPEAKER_09Uh not today. So uh anyway. We've not been here for a few weeks. We're so that's why we're so rusty. That's totally excuse.
SPEAKER_08So do you like us? Do you like what we've done? We tried we're desperately needy. Affirm it, give us value. Please, whoever whoever is watching, Aggie, Aggie Kasparis, please tell us you like sticking with us through that. Um we've actually recorded a couple of different uh theme tunes. So just this morning we we recorded that theme tune. Aren't we talented? But um Musical genius is what it is. We thought that maybe that theme tune might be a little too light.
SPEAKER_10Because actually what we discuss is often quite weighty.
SPEAKER_08No, sorry.
SPEAKER_10Say that again. Yeah, often what we discussed is actually quite weighty.
SPEAKER_08It is indeed. Yes. Yes. It is. Um we need therefore an appropriate jingle to go with the weightiness. So um not only did we record uh that bouncy version, we always we also recorded uh this.
SPEAKER_02Livecast Livecast.
SPEAKER_10So there you have it. Yeah. So let us know in the comments which one you think should be should be the real thing.
SPEAKER_08I know you like I know you like them both. Yeah. It will be hard to choose, obviously. But if you are forced to choose just one of those two exceptional ditties, um let us know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we don't waste our time here. This is all for the Lord. I mean, if you've got suggestions for a style in which we could do a um Oh, yeah, that's good. A theme tune.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, let us know.
SPEAKER_08Thrash metal next week. I could do that. You could do that. I'm down with that. I could do that. Yeah. Alright, and then polka the next week, and we'll see. Um good, yeah. So we are we are a bit rusty, so apologies to everybody um for all that we've been uh away doing things. I've been in Northern Ireland. I've been uh hey over the next uh over this sort of week, I'm uh in probably the two most churched towns in uh in all the UK, really. I was in uh Col Rain in on the north coast of the Northern Islands, and uh that was a very churched town, but the but they had about uh ten churches getting together and wanting to reach out. And you said for a a population of about forty thousand Oh, this is Banga.
SPEAKER_10Oh, sorry, that was no, sorry, we were talking about yes, but where was how many in That's a really good question. Do you know? But you said there was eighty churches in this something ridiculous in Banger.
SPEAKER_08In Banger, which is not a Yeah, not a huge town. Yeah. But uh it was with Col Rain, it was really interesting. Um they did these video vox pops of just asking random strangers in the streets questions about God, life, the universe, and everything. And pretty much everyone they stopped was a Christian. Like people were like making Bible references and things, and you know, I I believe it was Augustine who once said, We just want the man on the street. And they were just giving us these.
SPEAKER_10These are the men and women on the streets. Yeah. Yeah. How much of that is just kind of a very nominal Christianity?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, there is definitely that. I mean, every everywhere you go, there's got cultural Christianity. And and you know, one thing that I'm saying quite often and that I think you know has an impact in a place like Colrain is I say, I've got two rules of thumb. When I'm speaking to someone over sixty five and they tell me they're a Christian, I don't believe them. I'm not rude about it. You know, I don't poke them in the chest and say, prove it. You know. But if they're over sixty-five and they say they're a Christian, I'm not yet you know, I think there's still a conversation to be had about, well, what do you make of Jesus and that sort of thing? Because 65 years ago it was much easier to go out into the world with a label called Christianity.
SPEAKER_10Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_08And well, because I'm English, aren't I? So of course I'm a Christian. And so if you're over sixty-five, there's a there's a possibility that Irish. Oh Irish. Yeah, yeah. There's the possibility that it's a nominal Christianity. But then I always say, and if I'm talking to you and you're under thirty-five and you say that you're an atheist, I don't believe you. Right. For the for the very same reason. The very same reason is that it's very possible to be a nominal atheist. And just as the Christian in years gone by sort of picked up Christianity as a label and just wore it because everyone else was, I think it's really uh really common to find people who just identify as atheists. And they they haven't put more than 35 seconds into this metaphysical question.
SPEAKER_10And when you and the way they live their lives in certain areas would suggest they don't really believe it.
SPEAKER_08Right. Well you just asked them. So what are you praying for at the moment? And they said, Well, my mother's going in for an operation.
SPEAKER_10Yes, that's kind of it. There was an article, it popped up on my news feed, I think it was uh one from a few years ago, it must have been one of the memories, you know, it was about kind of when celebrities die, you know, and how it's like there's nothing, and then it's like, no, now, you know, Prince has got his you know purple rain in heaven, and you're like, hang on, what? Like and all that kind of stuff, and actually how suddenly, as soon as you know, particularly death is a big one, we know he's up there looking over us, you know, I know they're in a better place. And so, well, hang on, last week you gave me the impression you thought there was nothing.
SPEAKER_08They they should update the saying, There's no atheist in foxholes, it's like there's no atheist in Facebook status updates when celebrities have died. It's not as pithy, but still true. Factually correct. Factually correct. So Coloran was brilliant, so we put on all uh a bunch of different evening events in which I spoke on the topics of uh hypocrisy, how come the church is full of it? And then fairy tales, is the Bible just another myth? Um, suffering, um, how can a good God fit with a bad world? Sex, why are Christians so weird about it, and then um Peace.
SPEAKER_10Did you basically just say I'll speak on all the questions we've done for Thorny Questions? Because I've got a load of material ready.
SPEAKER_08Basically just did Thorny Questions. So Yeah. And in fact, I think the sex one was I think because when you start talking about there was a big case in Ireland very recently, or it's been going on for quite a while, but the the um the sentencing was was very recently. So Patty Jackson and Stuart Olding uh were two Ulster and Irish rugby stars who were um arrested for rape and they went on trial and eventually they were acquitted and and so they were found not guilty. Um but then they were dropped by their teams anyway, um largely because of or the the stated reason was that they had actually boasted about their sexual exploits on WhatsApp to a group of people. And what really struck me was that actually they're complete what legal Yeah, it was legal. Yeah, yeah, that they've been vindicated as these legal sexual exploits. Um but actually to have named them on this WhatsApp group, even euphemistically, was kind of too much, and the sponsors like put massive pressure and the team dropped them. And it just it just sort of struck me that we do to one another things sexually that we wouldn't even name. You know, it's Jordan Peterson is quaus we can't go uh an episode without mentioning Jordan Peterson. But he you know he he said, Isn't it interesting that these days in hookup culture people are doing to one another things that they would never name with one another. They would never actually articulate the things that they want to happen and and and yet they're doing them to one another. And I just thought it was interesting in in in Ireland in this in this trial that actu actually the speaking out of what had happened was the really you know controversial thing and and they ended up getting dropped. So anyway, so speaking about that issue uh on the Thursday nights, you you've kind of got people, I think. It was a it was a massive cultural moment and and good way in, isn't it? It's a good way in, and and then to say, look, it's not that the church has got sex right and the world has got sex wrong. It's that Jesus has a vision of sex that's just beautiful and everybody else gets it wrong. And just the church is just the people who gather to Jesus and say, We've got it all wrong, but what about you, Jesus? So that that was really fruitful and and uh yeah, I saw people trusting Jesus um last week, and we pray that uh they would continue to to follow him. Great.
SPEAKER_07So yeah.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. So you've been busy then? A little bit. Keeping yourself busy. Keeping myself busy and then off to Bangor in uh in another week's time. And uh yes, to probably the most churched down in in the UK, but plenty of non-Christians to go around.
SPEAKER_10So that's that's the one with the 80 churches for uh 40,000 population or something.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, they've got a bus going through, and uh I'm I'm very disappointed they didn't put my face on the bus. Oh what face on the back of the bus. That would be something to write home about. But instead, you know, it's it's advertising story banger. You can go to storybanger.com and figure out what we're doing, and uh yeah, should be a good time. Nice. Cool. Now I um I had a little bit of a rant at the top of the program uh about Shania Twain. Did you did you catch this story at all?
SPEAKER_10Oh well no, I didn't see it until you mentioned it to me, and then I kind of picked up it.
SPEAKER_08It kind of it it caught my eye on BBC because uh let's see what the what is the actual um the actual name, the actual headline for this um story was Shania Twain apologizes after saying that she would have voted for Donald Trump. It's interesting that that's that's the sort of the outrageous you know yeah, this spectacular you know how you know how could she possibly how she how could she possibly agree with literally half the US electorate? Yeah.
SPEAKER_10Um Is she Is she Canadian? She's and she's Canadian.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10So they say you would have thought by now celebrities would have learned just to say, what's that got to do with their knowing? Why are you asking me that? I'm not a politician.
SPEAKER_08Why does it matter? I know, but it just struck me as like so The Guardian wants to raise politics with Shania Twain, which is just ridiculous. And they want to inject Donald Trump into every news story ever. And so and and it's just ridiculous that anyone cares who Shania Twain would vote for.
SPEAKER_10Like, yeah, I mean I'm sure Shania Twain's lovely. I'm not that you know I just I don't really care.
SPEAKER_08She's still the one for me. Still the one I run to. These jokes don't impress me much. Boom. Boom. So but it did it did strike me that we've got this celebrity-obsessed outrage culture. And then of course it all orbits around an outrage-obsessed celebrity called Donald Trump. It's just like, oh, I I just I long for you look at it and you think, is this news?
SPEAKER_10Yeah. Is this really news? Right. Like Yeah, I mean it it's it's not like it's not like you kind of you think, you know, you get the the messages coming back on Twitter and you know, the people of Aleppo are deeply disturbed by Shania Twain's views.
SPEAKER_08Facebook's told us up there. Glenn Scrivener has marked himself as safe from Shania Twain's views.
SPEAKER_10Oh man, I I'm just aware that this this camera is just gradually slipping down and down until we're gonna be looking at a table in a minute. I don't know what we did to it. It was perfect. It was we were all set to go.
unknownMan.
SPEAKER_08Drooping. Yeah. But not us. We uh we are staying strong. So um so Shania Twain, that that sort of uh piqued my interest. Shania Twain would have voted the way that half American population did. Like, yeah, yeah. Half the population. I'm not I'm not Donald Trump's biggest fan, but I just don't think it's a sensational news story.
SPEAKER_10It's a bit but I wonder why they would they ask like if if if it was a British celebrity would they would they ask them? I just wonder, like, because uh Canada and the whole kind of North America thing, obviously, you know, diff very different countries, but I mean you think why would they an English celebrity, would they, about it? Like why would they care?
SPEAKER_08What's your view of Theresa May? Like well Well, I mean Jeremy Jeremy Corbyn, you know, did sort of didn't exactly headline at Glastonbury, but he went on stage at Glastonbury. You can't imagine Theresa May doing the same.
SPEAKER_10Didn't he do some Jennia Twain songs?
SPEAKER_08Man, I feel like a woman, I think, was was one of them. But yeah, he um But but there are certainly certainly politicians who it is cooler to identify with than others. You know, Justin Trudeau, I'm sure, in a in a in Canada is more you know cool to identify with.
SPEAKER_10Maybe. I don't know. I've seen it I don't know. You think he's been slammed a bit recently.
SPEAKER_08But who cares? Uh like It's like I was on I was online recently, it was on some Christian website, and there was a a banner advertisement for another website where you can click to find out what each celebrity believes spiritually. Wow. And you're like, who cares like I really why would I care what Beyonce like does spiritually or thinks spiritually?
SPEAKER_10Like is she really like Wait, it's first of all you you just don't know, do you whether whether they actually what they do believe. Yes. And then it's it's also like it's not like you know, you're you're in the work, you know, you're you're in your office, and you find out all of a sudden that I don't know, Beyonce is a Christian. Hey guys, turns out Beyonce is a Christian. Except cred now. Yeah, that's the credentials for Christianity.
SPEAKER_08I think Christians are far too thirsty for that. I think I think they do get too far too keen about that. Oh, they're a Christian.
SPEAKER_10Wasn't there a big thing about didn't Justin Bieber sing a worship song in one of his sets or something?
SPEAKER_08And doesn't he go to Hillsong in in New York when he's there and things like that? Why do I why do we know this? Like, and does it matter to us? Well, it doesn't matter to me. Doesn't matter to you. No.
SPEAKER_10Justin Bieber's not really my cup of tea musically.
SPEAKER_08Like, but you know, slip knot or something if they were. I don't know. I've been listening to a lot of Pink Floyd lately. That would surprise you though, if they came at us, you know. High Anglicans.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, well, I mean uh yeah. Well, they're clearly pondering the pointlessness of existence.
SPEAKER_08Dark side of the moon. Yeah. So yeah, why do we care? And why why do we take our cues from these celebrities? That's that's that's really what the spiritual temperature of the culture is. Like like forget what major religion we are. I tell you who are our idols, right? Our idols, you know, they're they're our stars, our celebrities. And we don't we don't care that Justin Bieber follows such and such a god. Like we just follow Justin Bieber. You know, that's the that's the spiritual temperature of the culture. Right there. Right there. See, that's pithy. Put it on a t-shirt. Um So the uh the other story that that um sort of broke yesterday, well it didn't break yesterday, but uh certainly developed yesterday. Mark Meachin, otherwise known as Count Dankula. Uh you didn't know that? Didn't you know that? Okay. Uh be careful what you laugh at now, because he uh famously in 2016 uploaded a video to YouTube which uh he claims was a prank on his girlfriend. And um in a second I'm gonna talk to James Carey about it. James Carey's been on uh the podcast a number of times, uh comedy writer, and uh also very interested in free speech and uh freedom of expression and all those sorts of issues. And I just thought the Count Dankula Mark Meechin story um was just a very important moment in which a judge ruled that he didn't care what the reasons were for Mark Meachin making his video in which a dog makes a Nazi salute. Um he doesn't care about the reasons for it, he doesn't care about the motivation, he doesn't care about the context. It is hate speech, and he was fined 800 pounds. And uh I was quite disturbed by that. James Carey was very disturbed by that, and uh we had a conversation about it just about an hour ago, so I hope you enjoy. Oh am I frozen?
SPEAKER_01Sorry. It says your internet connection is unstable. What? My internet connection shouldn't be unstable.
SPEAKER_08It said that to me. It might it might be talking about me. We're down here in a bunker in in our sound booth, but um is okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay, we'll see how we go.
SPEAKER_08We'll get there. So I am with James Carey, who is uh uh a script writer, comedy writer, and a Christian to talk to you about freedom of speech and uh and what we should make of this latest case of the Nazi dog video. So uh great to great to have you with us on the live chat.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_08Brilliant. So um you you are the sort of person who uh new news night might phone up at short notice and say, James Carey, do you have an opinion on this latest blasphemous comment by a comedian or things like that? Uh sometimes it does happen sometimes. That that went back to a sort of uh an incident where you were interviewing Ben Elton. Can you tell us about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh so very briefly, I did an interview for um a now defunct magazine called Third Way, which is a Christian uh magazine, and I I've never done an interview with anyone before. Um so I interviewed him and we transcribed the interview and published it, and it didn't seem that he said anything particularly controversial, but there was a little bit that was sniffed out where he talked about um how he was doing a uh a comedy, a sitcom, and he had one of the characters say something about Muhammad coming into the mountain, and which isn't which is an expression, um and um and he they basically the producer sort of said, Oh please have him say something else, just don't let's just not have that. And he expressed that the fact that the BBC have a bit of a double standard and that he felt some element of sympathy towards Christians who feel somewhat besieged, even though he himself uh is an atheist. And so what he said was deemed to be controversial enough to create a 24 hour 24 hours worth of outrage and indignation whilst people pretended that the BBC do not have a double standard. Um but uh but yeah, so so I ended up on news night and included a thing that I was unaware of called World Have Your Say, which is a global phoning show from the BBC World. Service. Right. And um and so yeah, obviously people have very different views across the world about these things. So that was a bit of an eye-opener.
SPEAKER_08So you were you were fielding people's outrage from across the globe.
SPEAKER_01Well it's kind of, yeah. I mean, I wasn't Ben Elton's spokesman at all, particularly. I wasn't trying to necessarily defend what he was saying, but merely commenting on it. But uh yeah, it felt like, well, you know, as usual, 36 hours later, it was all it would it all there was a train crash or something, and that was the end of that. Right.
SPEAKER_08Move on to the next outrage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, sure.
SPEAKER_08And so that this puts you in a space in which uh you're a Christian and you have strong views about Jesus and he's great. Um you're also a comedian, and uh you also believe in free speech. Tell me why a comedian in particular uh really wants to protect freedom of expression.
SPEAKER_01Well, in in short terms, um because otherwise you could go to jail. Um and that's and that's what we've just uh seen when this chap was fined. Uh this chap has been fined 800 pounds for the for training a dog to do a Nazi salute. Um and um and and so therefore what he has done is technically committed a crime. Now it's a it's a joke that I couldn't comedically defend. I mean it's it's technically funny what he's done. Um but you know, we need to be very clear on what does and what doesn't constitute breaking the law and what the law should and should not be.
SPEAKER_08Should we should we get back to basics?
SPEAKER_01So tell us who Mark Meachin is and uh yeah, so there's there's there's been a story about this job called Mark Meachin, who's also known on on the internet as Count Dankiller, and uh in 2016 um he posted a video on YouTube in which he thought it would be hilarious to take his girlfriend's pug dog called Buddha, who she thought was really cute, and um and teach it to do a Nazi salute. Um and um and he was sort of successful in that. And he was there's a two-minute video where he sort of successfully manages to brainwash this dog into uh into into sort of saluting in a Zekeal form. Right. Uh so uh which is which is which works as a joke. I mean that that's that's funny that he has irritated his girlfriend by ruining her dog um by getting it to do something that is the least cute thing that a pug dog called Buddha could do.
SPEAKER_08Right. So the joke depends on the fact that being a Nazi is the worst thing you could be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Now, here's the problem. Um Dankila's personal image looks uh looks questionable because he has a particular persona and he consorts with particular people, including somebody left to his defence was Tommy Robinson, who is former head of the English Defence League, who is um not a popular figure amongst um the mainstream media and the and the literati and the twitter arti. So he so when you have friends like that, people immediately start to think that you're suspicious. Um and so, and it may be that he actually does have deeply unpleasant views, um, and that he was using this uh dog as a way of putting those out on the internet. But I mean, as far as the joke is concerned, that that doesn't stack up uh because the the joke is only funny because it's such a horrible thing to do. And I was thinking about this that there was there was a sense in which this is no different from the producers, right? One of the most significant uh Broadway musicals of all time uh based on a movie made in the 60s, actually quite quite a long time ago, and quite near to when uh the Nazis were doing terrible things at June. Um and the point of that is that uh is that a a corrupt Broadway producer that will close on the first night in order to commit a large financial fraud.
SPEAKER_06Yes, because you can make more money with co-optic than you can with a hit.
SPEAKER_01And therefore, the the fact that so the idea is that this this show has to be so tasteless that it won't even make it past the past the interval. Right. You know, the producer at one point says, no, no, the show has to close on page four.
SPEAKER_08And uh the opening song is springtime for Hitler.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's it's it's such an interrible bad taste, and you see the audience watching it sort of absolutely open-mouthed, and uh it's just it's it's and it's really funny because it's just an incongruous image of these nice, genteel theatre goers watching this celebration of the Third Reich written by this lunatic uh ex- you know, ex-Nazi who's still in love with the Fuhrer. And so now Mel Brooks is Jewish, right? Um, and therefore he is able to say and do things, culturally speaking, that others might not be able to do, whether that is justified or not is obviously an another issue. Um, but I recently saw footage of him actually uh receiving an award for something, it may have been the producers, and publicly thanking Hitler. Um so I mean, this is a very, very complex area, and as you know, I'm writing a book about this, which will be out next year, in which I'm trying to show that in any joke there are numerous moving parts which makes things unbelievably complex incredibly quickly. Yes.
SPEAKER_08Um so uh so issues of context are just all important, aren't they? So like who says it to whom and what kind you know like who is the targets and who are you in making that joke? And and and then but actually the the sheriff or the judge in the in this case actually said context does not matter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Now that's that's a big worry. Uh because I mean I think he the the prosecution basically made the case that um that the context could not be decided by the accused but would be decided by the court, and the judge, the sheriff, uh agreed with that. Um and that's very worrying, really, because if you're saying that the context doesn't matter, then even us discussing this this this video now is in itself a a um a crime in Scotland. So you so your missionary work in Scotland, Glenn, maybe at an end. Goodness me. Just from some of the things that you say in even discussing it. And there is a very provocative and funny uh uh Jonathan Pye video, which some viewers may be interested to look up, uh, which uses language that is very much not suitable uh for work or the home, I would argue, um, but it's very splenetic in in basically making the point that it's a joke, um, and that the context is incredibly important. Right. Um so we need to be very careful to say that the context doesn't matter. Now, the court must decide whether the context is is as the accused says it was, um but but but uh but yeah, so so there's on one level there's the issue of the context, but the for me the the main issue is what what our society does now very regularly is confuses sins with crimes.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_01Sins uh so many crimes are sins, most sins are not crimes.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_01Um so speeding going at 80 miles an hour on the motorway is a crime. It's not it's only a sin because for preach brother to to break the law for a Christian is a sin. Right. You redefine the law yourself. Right. Um but actually there's nothing inherently immoral about driving at 80 miles an hour on an empty three-lane motorway at two in the morning.
SPEAKER_08Uh that's don't do it, boys and girls, don't do it.
SPEAKER_01But that's but that's not so I mean I mean I am I will be found guilty of inciting speech. Um but but the state has decided that it is a crime to do that, regardless of whether there is other traffic where regardless of whether it is dangerous, regardless of whether it is icy, or regardless of whether you're drunk or sober, it is a crime. Now there are reasons for that which kind of make make sense on one level, but it is worth noting that now we sometimes say, well, something is wrong, therefore it should be a crime. You go, no, no, no, no, no. Adultery is wrong, right? But it is legal.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Gossip is wrong.
SPEAKER_01Gossip is wrong. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Um But do you want a magistrate to assess you know to uh assess whether it was, you know, absolutely and all that kind of stuff. It's all blurring the lines, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Now, so Dankula has received a certain amount of ostracism from people who he never liked anyway, um, and people uh but also it would be legitimate for YouTube to have taken down the video because YouTube is a private company and they have their own rules. Um and so so it's kind of a matter for them, but for then for the but for the government to say no what you have said. I mean, it is le it is on the statute book, so there is a law about hate speech. Um so he has in a way committed a crime um as defined by that court now. So I just think that and what people have said is that so there are a number of um comedian comedy writers. Um, so for example, uh Graeme Lineahan, the writer of Father Ted, um who was a delightful man, I met him once, and he was he was extremely kind uh to me. Um he he has basically said that this guy deserves whatever he gets. Now um now the problem with saying that people you don't like should should get what they deserve by the laws of the land need to be very careful because soon those laws will be applied to him. Now, what if the Catholic Church had taken exception to the way in which uh his show portrayed the Catholic Church? Yeah, and what if he was then prosecuted in Ireland under under laws which he would say are unjustified, but well, they're the law of the land. So you have to be careful that the laws that you that are squashing the people that you like will not then be used to squash you.
SPEAKER_08Does this explain why okay, so a lot of Christians are uh are sort of lining up on the side of Mark Meachin on on this issue?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_08But when Jerry Springer the Opera came out and Stuart Lee and Richard Herring sort of wrote in a you know, Jesus in a nappy and all that kind of very offensive stuff, uh Christians kind of protested the BBC quite a lot when that when it was broadcast anyway. Um are there significant differences in this case?
SPEAKER_01Well I mean there are similarities. I mean, so for example, so in that situation, you the BBC is not YouTube. So the the main the main issue came when the BBC bought the rights to it and then broadcast it. And so therefore, the hundred and so the hundred or so pounds that you pay for your licence fee is now being spent on something that you don't like. Um now, unfortunately, when you buy your license fee, you are purchasing a range of views. Um and uh the BBC uh have a job, some say they do it well, others less uh less so, uh to uh to add to reflect the views of this nation, some of whom are Christian, some of whom are not, some of whom are atheists, some of whom think religion is great, some of whom think religion is toxic or stupid. Um and so therefore they are well within their rights to to protest. They were well within their rights to um, I mean, even when people set fire to things in public, I'm always pretty curious about that, because that that tends not to end well. But people were burning their license, uh their TV licenses and stuff, and you think, I don't really want to do that. Um but they're the liberty to do it, and if they think they should do it, well they then they they should do it. That's fine, it's not a crime to do that. So I think people can robustly make their case and people can robustly defend themselves. Um the problem is when the coercive power of the state um intervenes to say, this is right, this is wrong, you go to jail now.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I think that is something that the Christians particularly should be very, very dubious about uh leading us towards because the gospel is pretty offensive, and the outworkings of the gospel as revealed in scripture are, shall we say, counter-cultural at best and toxic and bigoted at worst, right in the views of some. And so I think I think Christians are now realizing that the Leviathan of the state is something that we want to be pretty careful, having ridden it for so long.
unknownAbsolutely.
SPEAKER_01I mean that's that's the thing, and and and we have been used to being the dominant power um culturally speaking um in our nation's history. Um and we've not done that particularly well at various points, so you know, there's lots of things that we that we have we have done poorly. So um, yeah, it's a bit so it is incredibly complicated.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um it's a joke, but ultimately, I mean, it's a the the the the Z Kyle dog, I mean, on paper, it's funny. It's a funny joke. In that it's subverting your expectations and turning things upside down and when you watch the video, I I watched it um properly full all the way through this morning, and it's a hard watch because he says certain things and uses certain phrases that are horrible.
SPEAKER_06Very horrible, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but in a way that that's the joke, um uh as as much as the actual um uh Nazi saluting pug dog. Um so yeah, it's a joke that I wouldn't do offended by, but it's not a joke that I think is worthy of an 800 pound fine and the intervention of the state. Yeah. Um I just probably wouldn't really be friends with him. Um but for some that's not enough because you know, because of the way society is now worked out, we want the law now to do things that actually previously society at large would do rather than rather than the state.
SPEAKER_08And it would largely do them through thick communities, and there's such a thing as shame, and there's yeah, shame and honor, and let's let's not give the ring of power to the states. Um we might find that they're not the best keeper of the ring. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, exactly. And their their track record on the use of power is also pretty pretty poor at times.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, and so just just briefly as we close, like what's your general policy on blasphemy in general? I mean, obviously, as a Christian, when you hear Jesus mocked, yeah, um, that saddens you, maybe it angers you, I don't know. But um where does where does does that thought lead you as you look out at a culture in which we're in a pluralistic society and different people have different values? How should we think as Christians about blasphemy?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, one of the things that I often say is that uh there is a very strong biblical theme of minding your own business. Um, so there is a lot of uh verses which start, but as for you, um, and in a way, we would do well not to blaspheme ourselves. And I think that is our primary responsibility is to make sure that we are not blaspheming. Um and we are at liberty to um to show our disapproval when others blaspheme, and that's that's fine if they don't want to listen, they don't want to listen. Um the problem is when we become when we become angrier than God about the misuse of his name, um, which can occasionally happen. Um so, for example, in particular, the people that, you know, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were actually holier than Jesus. Um and the moment we sort of start to go down that road, we want to be a little bit careful that our our holiness or our desire for God's name doesn't turn into sanctimony um and into um Phariseaism. Um so uh and and in our anger, in even in our potentially in our righteous anger, that is very easy for us to do things we don't shouldn't do and to say things we don't mean, or at least we shouldn't mean. Um so uh so for example, if if you are if you don't like hearing blasphemy on the BBC, you should write and tell them.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, and that's fine, and if they get enough letters, they will actually assume that people really don't want to hear uh blasphemy on on television. Now, obviously the problem comes when um when you have fictional characters and fictional situations doing things and saying things which the writer is not in himself condoning. Right. So in a in a show that I wrote about soldiers, I had a I had a chaplain, a padre, and people used to make jokes about her and to her face as well about her stupid religion. Now I wrote some of those jokes.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Um and um but I have to be truthful to the situation that that is what would happen in that situation. Now, if the all if if a viewer is offended by those jokes, a Christian view in particular is offended by the jokes, then there's sort of nothing I can do about that. Um and it's it's good to be offended, it's not a it's not a sin to be offended. In actual fact, if you're never offended, I would be worried that you're some kind of sociopath.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Um so uh so I think sometimes we mistake our our consciences um being um uh being aroused for something that we've done wrong, and actually we haven't done anything wrong. How we respond to that is really is really important, and sometimes we can respond to that with with anger rather than righteous anger, with indignation, um and at which point we need to be a little bit careful uh before we start um making placards and demanding people go to jail.
SPEAKER_08I'm always struck by Romans 2, you know, God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, God's people. Wow, that's that's that's really confronting, isn't it? You know you you have made the name of Jesus more mockable because of the way you've carried yourself in the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So the first person to look at is is yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the way yeah, so the way in which uh God deals with blasphemy uh in the Bible is really interesting. What he doesn't do uh is is send is send thunderbolts uh from the guy. Um and the sort of the time that he does one of the few times he does do that is over money, not blasphemy, with Ananias and Sapphira withholding, claiming they've been more generous than they actually have been. Um and so it seems that God goes all in on that one rather than the blaspheming of his name. Um so uh so yeah, so it is it is puzzling. Uh and our our priorities, even when we think that we're doing the right thing, are not always God's priorities. Right. Um so um so yeah, we need to be a little bit careful before we uh march on parliament and demand changes to laws.
SPEAKER_08And just as we finish, are there any sort of hopeful signs uh for Christians in free speech? You know, I mean I think back to you know just we Charlie and you know in the outbreak of that, people were sort of quoting Voltaire left, right, and centre. You know, I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Do you do you think do you think there is a bit of a resurgence in in free speech, and and do you think Christians can kind of take advantage of that?
SPEAKER_01Uh no. Uh I'm not terribly optimistic about free speech, um, especially in this country. In America, they have uh the amendment, Second Amendment, which which protects them. First amendment, sorry. Um one is guns, one is speech.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Uh I'm more ambivalent on guns, but um um but uh but yeah, no, I I I think unfortunately, because also the way in which we discuss uh speech and free speech, it's sort of ironic that television in particular is incredibly bad at discussing television.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's very good at storytelling, but it's very bad at analysis because your your eyes get bored very quickly of just people talking. Um and so I think in our sort of hysterical tweeting soundbite culture, we do this stuff very badly. And with the just we Charlie thing, I mean, the amount of hypocrisy based on that, when a whole lot of world leaders sort of march together defending, you know, and saying just we Charlie, but basically saying, well, they shouldn't have published those cartoons, they kind of brought this on themselves, and that what they did was irresponsible. You go, oh right, so jeune sweepers, Charlie, in fact. Um so you know, uh, so yeah, I I tend to be uh fairly gloomy about the current trajectory, but at least but at least it is now being discussed in ways um but unfortunately, you know, Count Dankilar is not a great um person to put on your posters as a defense of free speech.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Because as jokes go, that's socially a hard one to defend.
SPEAKER_08Right, right. Well, I tried to I tried to finish on a on a high, but uh James, you just that's the world as it is. You bring a comedy writer onto the show and he just hit everybody down.
SPEAKER_01We are the worst for that. I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_08Great to have you on the show, and we'd love to talk to you again uh when your book comes out next year. Um it'll be great to talk about. But um James Gary, thanks so much. Cheers, Glenn. Cheers.
SPEAKER_06And then we'll stop.
SPEAKER_09Right, we're back. And we're back. We've snunted and we've disappeared. We should go this way or that way. Just hello. Hey. We've been more empathetic. And how did that make you feel? Let's get the close up. Let's try the close up. Hey. That means definitely gone off kill today. Yeah, there's very few issues here. Very good generally with things.
SPEAKER_08Ben Lauer just said, helpful distinction between sins and crimes. Yeah, absolutely. You know, gossip is a sin. Let's not put it on the statute books. You know, like who's then going to be in charge of prosecuting gossip? You know?
SPEAKER_10It's like Yeah. I mean the th the th the thing I thought was fascinating there is that is saying that what you say is not context dependent. Wow. Which is massive. Yeah. Because I mean it makes me think, and I've pondered it a few times. I remember seeing an interview with um it was Samuel L. Jackson talking to a news reporter in the States, and it was all to do with the use of the N-word. Right. And of course there's a white news reporter, Samuel L. Jackson, obviously a black guy, um, and he's asking about this, and the white guy keeps saying he refers to it as the N-word, and Samuel L. Jackson is saying, just say it, you know, say the word. Right. And he's like, you know, you're not using it, you know, he's not using it in the context of an abusive way. I mean, even I'm reticent to use it now.
SPEAKER_09Are we sure that we are being heard by people? I think we are. The mic should be on. Okay, that's on.
SPEAKER_10Okay. Um word. And he's basically going, look, say it. Yeah. But you know, so so imagine if we're I mean, something of another example, but I mean if if context is not doesn't matter at all, then surely I mean, even I mean, e even the even the prosecution or the defence can't even use the words that are said by the defendant.
SPEAKER_08How do you even describe the crime?
SPEAKER_10If you go, well that's hate speech, you've just said it. Right. Oh, I'm just using it to defend. No, no, no, no. Context doesn't matter. Right. And suddenly you're pushing down a quite a dangerous road, aren't you?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10It's like Mike, Mike Reeves, yeah.
SPEAKER_08Mike Reeves said that um uh so I was at a a great day at Worthing Tabernacle um where we were discussing Charles Spurgeon and um in a in a QA session, Mike Reeves, who is the president of Union um and uh a professor of uh theology there, um, he said, Yes, actually I teach heresy at Union. He's like, What? You teach heresy? He says, Yeah. I did the course. This explains a lot. And uh and he said, Yeah, I I let people know what Arius believed, and and I teach what he believed, and and the but I don't pre if I preach heresy, that's different. And and I think there there is that distinction to be made. You know, uh let me help you out.
SPEAKER_02Let me help you out.
SPEAKER_10Oh dear Andy, come back. We need we need tech support. Everything's falling apart. We joke we joked. We did joke before Andy left that you know, if if after eight weeks we found that we could cope without him, we'd just be like, oh, don't worry, Andy. I think that's very obvious. That's not the case.
SPEAKER_08Proof positive. And if you're listening on the podcast, uh you really need to subscribe.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, you can check this out on YouTube. Yeah, YouTube. It's a real different angle on things.
SPEAKER_08So anyway, so that that's the difference. Yes, you're disappearing, says Biddy Mutter. Um Well, I mean some would many people would say that was. I should be seen and not heard. Uh, or rather the other way around. Um so yes, we shall see what happens, but James was not very um positive about uh our tolerance for freedom of expression anymore.
SPEAKER_10I mean, and what is there? Is there a Yeah, just cut to me there on the camera. Um what is the um is there a particular statute on the books as to what defines hate speech?
SPEAKER_08Sure. I just don't know what it is. Right, okay.
SPEAKER_10Well if anyone knows and you know in the comments, do you let us know, because it'd be fascinating to know where the line is drawn um and and how how do you define that? Because you know, there are the and and the reason it just in case people, you know, people are struggling to understand why we're even talking about it. Um because it's because I think it's James Touchbon, there are there are things that we would say as Christians that in the best in the best light people would say that's outdated and we don't believe it, and in the worst light it's bigoted and hates hate speech. Right.
SPEAKER_08Um And the pr I mean the problem with hate speech rules is you've got to somehow have a window onto somebody's heart to know that they hated the other person, you know. So if I if I read out a verse about homosexuality and someone was offended and thought I therefore hated homosexuals, they would have to know that that I'm gonna hold it.
SPEAKER_09Just uh I've got you, you got me.
unknownWoo!
SPEAKER_09What's you?
SPEAKER_10There I am that works in full glorious HD.
SPEAKER_09There we go.
SPEAKER_08The trouble you're gonna edit this out for the podcast, man.
SPEAKER_10There's gonna be a lot of editing at this rate.
SPEAKER_08The problem with hate speech is you've gotta have a window into somebody's heart and understand what their intentions are, and how on earth is a judge from on high meant to judge what your intentions really were with somebody.
SPEAKER_10And and and I think what's almost worse about this one is that he didn't even say basically what he said was the intention doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_10It was like it's what you said. Yeah, it's what you and that's more scary, isn't it? Because at least if someone was saying, let's work out the intention, you know. So you know, it happens in school, doesn't it? You know, the playground, someone said something and someone gets upset. And so I don't think they meant it in a way that was hurtful. And you can maybe get to the root of it and work it out, and that's okay. But once you start saying doesn't matter what your intention was, just don't go down this route.
SPEAKER_08Just this whole hate speech route, just don't go down it. You know, it's like we're tap dancing in a minefield with clown shoes. And this this one is like, oh, you know, the the bomb's gone off after two three hundred steps, and some people are saying, Oh, let's only take 299 steps into the minefield. How about we just steer clear of the minefield? How about we just, you know Which, you know, kind of makes you a free speech absolutist, which is a bit, you know, it sounds like a scary thing to be, but I think the alternative is to give the ring of power to the state so that the state now is sitting in judgment upon you and is sitting in judgment on your motives. You know, they're they're playing the place of God. Yeah. Basically.
SPEAKER_10I mean, I think I generally think I kind of just think that you should be able to almost free speech is is an absolute thing. If you're gonna have it, you should be allowed to say anything, regardless of how offensive it is. Because at the end of the day, I mean you don't have to So people everyone is uh being offens offended is a subjective thing. Right. You know, so like what offends you might not offend me, and so on and so forth. So how could you even possibly start saying, well, this is off limits and this is okay and that's not I mean there are definitely lots of th you know, as a Christian, there are lots of things I would say, What are you I don't think you should be saying those things. Right. But I don't think it should be illegal. Pretty much anything you like. Yeah. You know. Um and and part of the reason is not because I don't disagree not because I I think those things are all good things when people say those things, but because I know that very equally it could be flipped round and used on me, just like he was talking about there with Graham Is it Graham Linehan, yeah. You know, and actually, yeah, the Catholic Church could have turned around and said, Right, you know, well hang on a second, your portrayal is very offensive to the Catholic Church and blasphemous.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_10So let's get the state down on you. Yeah. Um and everyone loves the state when it's on their side.
SPEAKER_08Right. But you know, and Christians had it on their side for like a thousand years. So like for us to now be, oh, I don't think the state should meddle in these sorts of things. Like, I can understand when secular people say, yeah, that's very convenient now. Now that the shoe's on the other foot, you don't you you want to get the state out of these these matters.
SPEAKER_10Um so we've got a lot of repenting to do, but and also I think sometimes as Christians we we oft we get this wrong so often that we we almost think that if we if we make society adhere to our moral values we're somehow moralizing them into the kingdom. Yeah. But we we know that's nonsense, you know. If we start legislating if it became the law tomorrow that everybody had to be Christian and go to church on Sunday, I'd has the kingdom won't be able to do that. Have anyone really gained anyone?
SPEAKER_08Yeah. Yeah. No. Probably not. No, and because our mission is a speech mission, therefore, we should really be the first ones to be defending free speech. Yeah. Because literally we don't want to force people into anything because we're a a movement of faith and you cannot compel faith. You can only try to persuade people. Therefore, speech is our mission to the world. Therefore, yeah, we should be absolutely on the front lines of these free speech things, which might sound like a really odd coalition to be standing up against Count Dankula and saying, you know, he he should be allowed to make his videos, but I actually, given what our mission is, which is a speech mission that the world hates, then actually we should stand right alongside these people in principle and say you have the right to say things that others find offensive, you know.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. I mean, where's it where's that phrase come from? You know, I I don't agree with what you say, but I defend the rights. Your right to the death for you to say it.
SPEAKER_08So Voltaire, I think, famously said it and and it came out in the Charlie Hebdo stuff, and everyone was sort of everyone was was quoting it, but um not really meaning it. It's convenient uh hashtag bandwagon to do for the And actually when people when people like f like the first thing I ever knew about Charlie Hebdo was when you know the the the tragedy of the of shooting up the officers and then you start to look at you know these cartoons, you're like, oh this is a bit on the nose. And it is massively on the nose. And I I think I think people people signed up to the Je suis Charlie, you know, hashtag without knowing, oh no, yikes, but but they can be offensive. Like, yeah, that's yeah, that's the price of of free speech, and we should be on its side. Um I reckon that should do us for today.
SPEAKER_10I mean, we we were gonna talk about our um thorny questions from previous weeks, but um I fear your arm might drop off.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10Oh look, look at that. Hey, it's no matter which camera, it's always you, isn't it? Always you, man. More you. Yeah. So yes, I uh we we have we have have we talked on thorny have we talked about uh other religious thorny um our last two, which were Is it arrogant to say that Christianity is right and what about other faiths? Okay. Well, aren't all religions the same, is it? Right. And so actually it'd be good to revisit those. Yes. Because there's a lot of good stuff in there, I think. Yeah. Not uh our own trumpets, but what we said was pretty good.
SPEAKER_08On the money. And uh we've got links to that in the comment section of the Facebook live cast so you can check out our latest thorny question, Aren't All Religions the Same? Uh, which has a brilliant bit from William Shatner in it. It's worth it just to see William Shatner. Really? Basically, tune in for that. But um we'll have to do this another time because uh I think I think that's all that people can cope with for today. That's all I can cope with. This car crash of a live cast, basically. It'll all come out in the in the edit. So stay tuned. Uh on YouTube we'll uh we'll upload uh some version of this. And uh the podcast will come out on Friday. Um, and you can hear James Carey all over again. Um, and he is worth the admission price. Very good. Even if we were not. Um but thank you very much, everybody, for joining us. Uh it's been great to be with you. And uh we will have our live cast next week on Monday. Um, not Tuesday, but Monday, uh, 1 pm GMT. And uh if we get it all together. And is Andy back that week? He might even be back. Wouldn't that be good? Uh shall we go out on the sad?
SPEAKER_10I was about to say that should we end on on this note? Okay. Okay, well, thank you very much. God bless. See you next week.
SPEAKER_03Live car.