The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_02So Glenn, you've written three poems that have been performed and filmed and are available for people to watch for Easter. Because Easter is funny. What's so funny about Easter?
SPEAKER_00Everything's funny about Easter. Not only the big picture, so at a big picture level, Easter is the grand comedy. You plumb the deepest depths and then you go to the highest heights. Because that's actually the shape of comedy, classically speaking. Dante said that a tragedy is a story that begins in joy and ends in pain, and a comedy is a story that begins in pain and ends in joy. So you can remember it because a comedy is shaped like a smile. There we go. Comedy is shaped like a smile. And I'm tragedy there. Well, you know. I'm the tragic one. And uh here we go, we we climb up into the world and then we tumble down into the grave. Yeah. Comedy is you go down into the pit and then you end on a high. Um so what is a comedy? Well, Easter's the the ultimate comedy, isn't it? Because Jesus plums the ultimate depths, enters into our tragedies to give us the happily ever after. So from that angle, Easter's a total comedy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh and then there's the issue of just the ironies uh uh of Easter. Um the the way in which this story unfolds is at times it's not laugh out loud, funny, but but it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I also say, you know, I wouldn't open with a comedy store. Right. Yeah, but it's comic. It works comedically because although I uh so I think your overall thesis of well Dante's thesis of tragedy ending in you know sadness and comedy ending in joy is true. From a, if I may say, as a sitcom writer myself, yeah, uh the um jokes uh and comedy on a small level tend to work in terms of incongruity, things that things that shouldn't be that are next to each other are put next to each other. Yes. I'm not convinced, I mean trying to write a book on this at the moment. I'm not convinced that there is a grand unified theory of comedy because the moment you c you have a plan, a joke comes up which doesn't fit any of the rules, and that's what jokes do, they kind of break rules.
SPEAKER_00They're pretty anarchic, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um so uh and we we can we can maybe talk about that later, but um but at the same time, Easter throws up loads of really weird incongruities, not only about who Jesus is, but then what happens to him, right? The story of Easter from Palm Sunday through to Good Friday through to um the the resurrection on on Easter Day, which this year in 2018 is April Fool's Day, hence talking about Easter and comedy. Absolutely, absolutely um so so you've written these three poems, starting with Palm Sunday. Right. Um, you know, what what's the comedy in in Palm Sunday? There's a guy on a donkey. Um donkeys are inherently funny.
SPEAKER_00They are, yeah, yeah. You can make a real ass of yourself and all that. Yeah. So there is there is meant to be a king who is having his you know great procession, and it turns out to be a funeral procession. You know, it's meant to be on his way to a coronation, it ends up being on his way to an assassination, uh, he's meant to be on some stallion, uh, it ends up being on a donkey. Or two donkeys. Yeah. You know, in in Matthew, Matthew remembers a second donkey that was there, which is just I mean, that's funny.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And also it's it's a young donkey.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02So his feet are sort of dragging along the ground. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty undignified. Yeah. Now, of course, the thing is, a theologian at this point will say, well, of course, we know exactly why Jesus is on a donkey, don't we? Zechariah 9. Zachariah 9.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, what does Zechariah 9 say?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm sure you've you've got it off the top of your head, but uh see him come gentle and riding on a donkey on a cult, the foal of a donkey.
SPEAKER_02So it's easy to look at the fulfilment of scripture and explain the weird moment. Right. But then it's easy to look past it and just go, they think he's going, they think that he's gonna be their king, he's riding into victory, the crowds are all there, and here he comes. And he is he on a is that is he on a donkey? Yeah, is he not is he on two donkeys? It's not like what is going on?
SPEAKER_00You can even ride two donkeys at once.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. With with retaining your dignity. Answer.
SPEAKER_00I don't think you can. You don't, but you know, he's on his way to a cross, which will be his throne. And how do you keep your dignity there? You can't, you know, and and and so there's something deeply subversive about that. So so we're on to we're on to the comedic, you know, style, and and just just the very person of Jesus himself, you know, coming to planet Earth. We've we've got God becoming man, which is inherently comedic. I mean, wasn't that uh Aquinas that that spoke about the body as brother ass? Right. You know, that actually it's quite a beastly thing for God to become a man, and now he has to go to the bathroom, and now he has to, you know, participate. He participated in mammalian birth, the god who made us, yeah. Covenant goo, and we had to smack him so he'd start breathing. Yeah. And and sss and you know, he gets acne. And you know, he's a he's an awkward gangly teenager for a few years. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's I'd like to see a gospel about those years, that'll be interesting, wouldn't it? But uh there are some around. There are some around, but uh yeah, I'm not sure that we would endorse them necessarily.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um but so I mean, yeah, the idea of the incarnation is inherently comic in the same way that you know, um, I mean, people talk about superheroes now are very, very serious. Yes. But back in the 70s, when they were making the original Superman movies, it was funny.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Superman was funny, yeah. Uh, because it's like imagine all that incredible power in one person.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, but now we've kind of forgotten all that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh and and actually, and as Christians, maybe uh we often we we kind of get the incarnation, we understand it. I mean, it's madness to other religions. I mean, Islam would just say this makes no sense.
SPEAKER_00Go worship your flesh god, yeah. You know, wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know. So I mean, so it already looks funny to a billion people in the world, yeah. Uh, but just not to us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so so then we go from Palm Sunday, uh and then you know, it turns into a pretty rotten week.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh doesn't it? For the Son of God. For the Son of God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So comedically, how is that then unfolding?
SPEAKER_00Well, let's think about uh let's let's think about the upper room. I mean, there we've got, you know, Peter is just a hilarious figure, you know. He was meant to have organized the foot washing for a start. I mean, that's that's just you know what the chief disciple's job would have been. So, oh, he didn't do it. Never mind, the son of God will do it. So the son of God gets up from the table and does the lowest slave's job. And so you can understand that when he comes around to Peter, he's really the one who's like his skin is crawling, he's going from buttock cheek to buttock cheek, kind of, you will never wash me, you know. And then Jesus is like, well, if I can't wash you, you have no part with me, then wash my all my body. And he is Peter's always kind of like going from all to nothing to all the things.
SPEAKER_02He's kind of a Peter Griffin kind of character, isn't he? From Family Guys. He's just like, no, no, never, no, no, everything. It's fine. Everything. And then he goes from that to, I never knew who are you talking about? I don't know this Jesus guy. Right, right. You know, and the denial, and and then the it's kind of, yeah, it's sort of veering between. And in a way, I think that's for me one of the most compelling parts of the gospel narratives is the fact that the disciples consistently look like morons. Yes. About as moronic as I would have been had I been in that situation.
SPEAKER_00They were the best of the best. We we often look down on them and kind of think, oh, foolish. And if I was there, no, if I was there, I'd be even worse. Like Peter is meant to be like the best of the best. And in the presence of holiness, he is ridiculous. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I yeah, they're the best and the best, also in the sense of they didn't want to kill him, which an awful lot of other people seem to do. Yeah. Yeah, okay, well, okay. One out of 11 out of 12 is not bad. Um but then, you know, and then the crowd turns. You know, and then that's one of my favourite bits in the gospel, in the narrative as well, is in the in Gethsemane, you probably know where I'm gonna say, is where they think it might be Mark, where they grab his grab his tunic or his cloak and he runs off naked, so desperate as he to get away. Right. Uh and the kind of the indignity of it, and well. I mean, naked is funny too, let's be honest.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here's the author of one of the gospels. You know, here's like the Bible's a ridiculous book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's like the it's like the um the old masters painting themselves into into their pictures, and there's a crowd scene, and there's one looking right out at you. Right. And oh, well, that's of course that's Rubens or that's that's Holbein or whoever.
SPEAKER_00Right. But in the Gospels, it's more like they would be wearing a donkey's head or something. Like because they are so ridiculous. Yeah. Because if Mark is the is the sort of the amenuensis of of Peter, if he's the secretary writing down Peter's words, which is what everyone sort of thought traditionally, um, what's Peter doing, not massaging the story here? Why why is he leaving all this ridiculous stuff in about himself? Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_02So So ten out of ten for humility at least.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. Eventually.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But Peter, in the moment, you know, on the he's getting his feet washed and he says, you know, Jesus, I will die for you. And I love that moment when Jesus says, Oh, you'll die for me, will you? Is that is that the way around? Yeah. You know, let me let me think about that one. And and and then later in the upper room, Peter's like, even if everyone falls away, I never will. And within hours, he's denying Jesus to the servant girl. Yeah. To a servant girl, you know what I mean, as well.
SPEAKER_02Because the lowest status person in that society is like, uh what do you what do you mean? I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00It's the ultimate banana peel moment, isn't it? It's the sort of the pompous proud guy gets pricked, comes. So there's there's some comedic moments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the reversals as well. It's incongruity reversals of and then, of course, uh, the bit that always gets me is the fact that then this whole plot to kill Jesus, um, I always find quite funny. Uh in a too soon, James. Too soon. It's 2,000 years, mate. Come on. Um, the idea, and I sort of always go back to when uh in John's Gospel Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, and there are people there, they go back to the temple and to the priests and the leaders, and they say, He raised Jesus from the dead, and they say, Yeah, we're gonna have to kill this guy. And you go, uh I don't think that's gonna work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. You know, he's just said, I am the resurrection.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In that same chapter, John 11. Yeah. They're like, let's kill him. Let's kill him. Yeah, see how that works out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, and but yeah, that's the kind of amazing thing is when when he's when he's when he dies, when he's dead, it kind of he looks dead. He is dead. He is dead, and and and the the disciples are uh running scared, I mean we know get get ahead of ourselves, but um but yeah, so the idea that you can sort of kill God, you just think, well, that's crazy. And then the extra irony on top of that is who who kills who kills God? Right, is it is it is it the mob? No. No, no, it's the priests.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his crime is for being God. Like literally, you know, Caiaphas the high priest says, Are you the Christ, the son of the living God? Mark 14, verse 62. Jesus says, I am. Right, you know, therefore, like the the one crime that actually pivot.
SPEAKER_02I thought Jesus never claimed to be God. That's what the Da Vinci Code says, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. Well, there's another ridiculous book that we can get into another time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, you know, he's asked, Are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one? And he says, I am, which is another divine title. He's just like piling it on. And then he says, and you will see the Son of Man come on the clouds. So he's like, Yeah, I am totally your maker. Totally. And then Caiaphas is like, for that reason, you must die.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because there's no possibility that you could be him. So you must be a liar, or you know, it makes you think, what did Caiaphas think was going on at that point?
SPEAKER_00I mean, it's you know, or maybe it's just the the the raw evil of when God actually shows up, we want to kill him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know though. I mean, I wonder, I was reading the accounts the other day, and just when Caiaphas just he's clearly terrified of civil disorder, of losing their place and losing their position. And I and I guess it's easy to say, Caiaphas, you are you are worse than Hitler, which is the current kind of way in which we argue things these days. Aren't we clever? Um but uh he is really worried that they will lose their position, their land, their place to the Roman occupiers. And so, and you just think that's so normal, that's so human. Is as you get closer to Jesus, if you if if you're if you're not following Jesus, the closer you get, the more you realize this is gonna change everything.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And I don't I don't know if I want that. Right. And Caiaphas was the only person in history, as it were, who got to stand there and say, kill him. And actually, we don't get to do that. Um, but how many of us would not have done that? You know, it's it's really hard. He could so easily have said, It's this isn't even about me. You know, if if there is an uprising, if the Romans come, people will die, there will always be a reason to reject Christ because it's too costly, it's too expensive, it's too dangerous, it's too this, too that. So Jesus is sentenced to death for being God, for being God, which is about as subversive and incongruous as it gets.
SPEAKER_00So it's like it's like the judge is put into the dark and judged. You know, the the truth is held in contempt of court, you know, and God is declared a heretic, you know. So this is this is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02As black comedy goes, it's kind of up there really in terms of like subversive and how more wrong could it be. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And then he is mocked and beaten and whipped and um and that bit that is deeply subversive because as the as the gods are punching him in the face, which is just it's such a it's a it's a real kick in the guts to read this, but they're punching the son of God in the face and they're you know whacking down the staff onto his crown of thorns so that it beds itself down. And as they do that, they say, Prophesy, prophesy.
SPEAKER_02Which one of us did it?
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, which one of us did it, right? Which they think is hilarious. But the joke's on them because hundreds of years earlier, all the prophecies are actually coalescing around them and precisely what they're doing. They're like, Prophesy, you know, like he is the prophet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's the amazing thing, isn't it? That not only are the religious people uh then co-opting the Roman soldiers to do their dirty work, but also the religious people kind of had memorized most of the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02They knew the prophecies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it kind of it's sort of incredible that could they not see that this was the moment, but I guess it's very easy to say that with 2,000-year hindsight.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's almost as though they are deliberately fulfilling things like Psalm 22, where they are sort of saying, You who said that you would destroy the temple, you know, come down now and we will believe you. Yeah. Um and they're they're essentially you know, quoting from a thousand years you know BC, David's David's Psalms, you know, and and they're saying, you know, if you come down from the cross, we will believe you. Uh you know, save yourself. He saved others, he can't save himself. And of course the irony being, well, he saves you by losing himself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the so and the idea that he is he's there with common criminals. And I the the I I I can never get over the fact that one of the criminals is about to die and yet takes time out of his last dying breaths to heap insults on what is wrong with you?
SPEAKER_00Well, if someone treads on my toe, I'll probably you know a mouthful.
SPEAKER_02Not now, man. Come on. Yeah, but putting yourself together, man. Is this how you want it to end? But then but then it is He's not in a good place. But then it's the he's no, that's true. So he's made some bad choices. But then the other criminal is it's like, isn't it amazing that to a criminal he says, You will be with me in paradise.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Of of all people, for him to say that to you is the most extraordinary thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the rulers are putting him to death, but the criminal's gonna be with me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And then the next person to spot what's going on is the centurion. Right. Who's just thinking, I'm pretty sure this was the Son of God. Yeah, right. It's like, I don't mean this is uh maybe it's the earthquake, uh, maybe it's the uh maybe it's the sudden pitch black. I don't know. It's just like there are some clues here.
SPEAKER_00But how are his eyes open to it? Because he's he's obviously very invested in the death of this guy, because like if he doesn't do a good job killing Jesus, he's got to be the next one on the on the cross. And so he's very invested in killing Jesus. As he does so, something about it makes him think this is what it looks like to be God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Really? Yeah, this this guy choking to death?
SPEAKER_02I think there's uh a while ago, there's a very funny stand-up comedian called Simon Munnery, um, and he had a whole bit at one point about how Jesus gives out this cry and a centurion says, surely this is the son of God. And he was saying that's a really specific way of crying out for someone to then conclude. You know what I mean? You think, well, yeah, I guess that that kind of works. He used to do that in secular comedy clubs. Wow. With an incredibly long buildup with no laughs, Simon Manoe. To which point the you know, the audience were so desperate to laugh that they just kind of went for it and they used to do very well. So then he Jesus is uh he's he's died, he has died, he's killed, he is dead. Right. You know, all this weird stuff then happens to be a good thing.
SPEAKER_00God must now be buried in it.
SPEAKER_02And so they're gonna bury him. Right. Um so and then so that I sort of thought the resurrection has a Easter Day has a different quality of humor about it, doesn't it? Of kind of more not just the subversiveness of death has been overturned.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Which is in itself funny, and seeing the disciples come to terms with that is is quite something.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02But then also just the the exhilaration and the joy and the relief of like, oh, we thought he was dead, but he isn't dead.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02We didn't think they he could die, and yet we thought he must have done and you know and they were not expecting it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that there's another funny thing. You know, if they if his believers really believed him, they would be outside the tomb with the champagne glasses ready, kind of yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's like uh the Son of Man will be crucified, and right it's like and they're what were they thinking? What could he mean by that?
SPEAKER_00That's what they that is that is the funny thing because he said that it's transfiguration when they come down, Jesus has made his second of four um predictions, I think, in Mark's gospel, he'll rise from the dead, and they they spend the time coming down the mountain uh discussing with one another what Jesus must have meant by rising from the dead, you know, these liberal theologians. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And yeah, and yeah, you just think one of them could have said, Do you think maybe he'll just rise from the dead? I don't know, maybe it's it couldn't mean that. Yeah, sure. But it can't mean that.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02So you get that exhilaration and that joy, yeah, and a different kind of laughter, isn't it? Yeah. Um, but then also, I mean, we we've um there's also this idea, there's a Christian tradition of laughing on Easter Day or Easter Monday or this Rhizus Pascalis or whatever it's called.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um as if the devil has been tricked in some way, which you know, it's not quite how the res that's not quite how it works, is it? But that was that's a popular idea at the time.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think, you know, I think there are all sorts of layers and models of the atonement and what's going on. I I think in 1 Corinthians 2 there is a kind of a thing of if the rules and authorities had known what they were doing, then they'd never have, you know, crucified the Lord of glory. So that there is a strand of that. But um, but you know, we we don't want to go down the route of saying that you know Jesus was paying a ransom to the devil. Yeah, you know, yeah. Um not a thing. And that's not a thing. That's not a thing. But having the last laugh over death is totally a thing. Where over great is your victory.
SPEAKER_02And and life's the final thing, you know, having a last laugh. We're into life for Brian, aren't we? Always look on the bright side of life.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And you know, that that is the great religious comedy. Yes. But you would argue is not a comedy.
SPEAKER_00Well, of course it's not a comedy, it's a tragedy. It's utterly tragic, you know. If we follow Dante, who said that you know, comedy is a story that begins in joy, begins in pain and ends in joy, and a tragedy is a story that begins in in uh in joy and ends in pain, then what is the life of Brian? Well, Brian ends up choking to death on the cross, you know, whistling life is quite absurd and death's the final words. And however funny Life of Brian is, and it's hilarious, and I've used all sorts of clips from Life of Brian in in in sermons and things like that, and I think it's brilliant. You know, it's I just called Romana Ira Domus in my head or Romanus irredomis. Is that the right way or the wrong way?
SPEAKER_02I can't remember. I can't remember. My kids will be appalled. I'm teaching them Latin or don't play them this bit. Um but but yeah, but it's but it's but it is ultimately a hopeless film, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00It's like so tragic. I can't watch the ending.
SPEAKER_02It's the ultimate stoicism, really, isn't it? Right. Of just that's it. Life's you know, life's quite absurd, and you know, the final give it a grin. And and in one sense, it's very appealing, isn't it? Because it's safely untological. Uh because it kind of takes away that having to decide about who Jesus is. It's just like, well, you know, cheer up, chin up, everything'll be alright, you know, kind of British chippiness.
SPEAKER_00But there is no other answer to death. So if if you don't go with Jesus rises from the dead, look around at all the other religions in the world, there's no there's no hope for these bodies in this world. Look at every other worldview in the world, there's there's no hope for these bodies in this world. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, I guess whistling, whistling through the graveyard to keep your spirits up is is pretty much Gallo's humour is as good as you can get. Yeah, really.
SPEAKER_02And so that's to some extent what your book is about, is about the just looking at these two different ways of comedy and tragedy.
SPEAKER_00And and without the Easter story, it is unutterably tragic. You know, we are just biological survival of machines clinging to an insignificant rock hurtling through a meaningless universe towards eternal extinction. But you know, Starbucks has a new flavored latte, so that's nice, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And have you tried hot yoga? It's fantastic. Yeah, you know, all this distraction, but distraction, and and we climb to the top of life and we try to get all the experiences we can, and we know that we're just enjoying a tiny brief moment in the sun, and then we tumble down into the compost heap from which we've emerged. Uh, and it's it's tragic, it's a total tragedy. Uh but with Jesus, this is this is why we celebrate. This is why we can have the Easter laughter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because that there is feasting joy at the end of all things.
SPEAKER_02And ultimately, who is the April Full? Well, I guess we are.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Because we think death is the end, and with Christ it isn't. Right. Ha! You know.