The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_03Hello, everybody. Hello. Welcome. We're a little bit earlier than usual, about 12.30. I need to head off for a a meeting. So uh hello, welcome to the live cast. Yeah, hello.
SPEAKER_01It's good to be back with you. Back in the studio rather than in a room underneath the church somewhere.
SPEAKER_03In the bowels of All Souls Lang Place. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's good to be here. Yeah, so this time last week, uh I guess we were in between uh a uh an event at All Souls Lang and Place where Mary Berry was. And uh and I think we have uh with Mary. This was this was Mary's dream come true.
SPEAKER_01She's already posted it up there in the show.
SPEAKER_03I believe she tweeted it just with the word finally. Exclamation mark, just finally. And uh Yeah. Hashtag dream come true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I didn't actually get to meet her despite the fact she walked all of three feet away.
SPEAKER_03Man. And yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01To be honest though, I mean when when you asked me what's the best thing about uh bake-off, my answer was pro leaf.
SPEAKER_03So this is why Paul can't have nice things.
SPEAKER_01I'm not allowed to use the microphones.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is why we don't let you anywhere near the celebrities. So that was that's the best thing about bacon. I told Mary Berry what I was gonna speak on. Like after her interview, I'm gonna speak about bake-off. And she says, but I'm not on bake-off anymore.
SPEAKER_01Awkward, bit of a sore topic, perhaps, that one. Yeah, really. But she yeah, she's amazing.
SPEAKER_03She's like the she is she is blitz spirit personified, and uh yeah, she's yeah, she was lovely, wasn't she?
SPEAKER_01I think we talked about that last week, didn't we? We did. We thought she might be a bit severe, but well I did, but she was lovely. But then we met we had Tim, didn't we? Tim Farron the next night.
SPEAKER_03So he was thrilled to to then get a self-go I think we brought Glenn with Tim.
SPEAKER_01Um Daro Breen in the back of the room. Darrow's photos on me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So he uh yes, or the guy from the Megabus uh commercial. Here we go, here's Yeah. That's right. Darrow Breen, who makes a joke out of looking like the guy from Megabus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Who who who is the hanger, where is he? Ross. Who is this guy?
SPEAKER_03He's a member of All Souls, Lang and Place. He was the guy interviewing Tim Farron.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03And uh and then I spoke afterwards, but I I I don't think I should have spoken afterwards. I think I think Tim Farron should have just like taken the whole evening because he was incredibly clear. He was just, you know. There were two points of just incredible clarity. The first one is he uh he said, you know, when you're when you're looking at sort of faith options, there are two options you can go for. Which camera am I going there? That that one. No, where am I there, there, right down the yeah, right down. Okay, so he said there are two options you can go for. You can either you can either say, and at this point I'm thinking, you know, he's gonna say, either you can believe in some kind of god or you can believe there's no kind of god. And he just said, either you think Jesus is Lord, or uh it's nihilism. You know, life is utterly meaningless and it's absurd. And it was like, wow, yeah, so we thanked him sugarcoating that for us a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But that was the thing I said actually. Uh the the thing that was really striking about him, how he was he was really gospel-centred, yeah, really Christ-centered. You know, sometimes you you have interviews with people, right? Or you know, you get celebrities who are kind of Christians, and you come away from hearing them talk about something, and you kind of think, what do they really believe? It's hard to tell, maybe they're not that clear.
SPEAKER_03And to be honest, there have been some interviews with Tim Farron in the past where people have wondered what does he really believe? There were a few of us who are worried that actually, yeah, Ross Hendry was just gonna ask him the same question 17 times. Thankfully, he navigated that uh more sensibly.
SPEAKER_01No, but he was very gospel-centred, wasn't he? Uh, from the off. And and the thing that struck me is that you know, the interview wasn't kind of here's here's you know twenty twenty-five minutes about Tim Farron and what and what he's like and you know his job, and then a bit bolted on the end about his faith. It was actually very much um he spoke very naturally about his faith all the way through, and and often unprompted. You know, he wasn't he didn't wait to be asked to just start talking about Jesus, he just started talking about Jesus. Yeah. Um and so, yeah, I mean I I was just very encouraged by hearing him really in the respect.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Because the other thing he said that was so clear, the other ultimatum that he gave us all was um look into the truth of Christianity. If it's not true, then it is a great hoax, and you should reject it out of hand. If it is true, it's the most important thing you've ever, you know, studied in your life. If it's not true, it's a hoax. Reject it forever.
SPEAKER_01Yep. You know. And it's good in a sense for him to lay down that as a kind of um very black or white thing, because often people have this kind of middle ground and they're like, Oh, yeah, well, maybe it's not true, but we could learn from the stories and we can follow Jesus' example. And but it's a very it's a very narrow example, isn't it? You know, they don't they don't ever pick up on the bits where Jesus is like, woe to you, Pharisees, and judging people. Um it's a bit like Russell Brand. We watched the Russell Brand um thing the other week, didn't we? We don't want a judgmental Jesus. Well, you've got to judge Jesus, I'm afraid. Just you know, look at all the things he says, he's he's judging people, you know. And ultimately he is a judge.
SPEAKER_03So But Tim Ferr, what was interesting is is okay, so a lot of Christians would uh criticize him because of his his stark separation of church and state, such that, yeah, privately he has said, yes, I believe the homosexuality is a sin, but publicly, look at my voting records in the House of Commons, and I've I have you know supported the rights of gay people to live their lives however they want to live them. And I'm not the sex police, and the church is not the sex police, and no one's gonna come and you know investigate your bedroom activities. Go for your life, I've got my my faith over here, and nevertheless, and sometimes Christians um sort of look at that and think, no, because it's Christ in all of life, and surely Jesus has something to say to the whole world in the realm of sex and marriage and those sorts of things. And so he gets flak on that side. But actually, what's what's interesting is uh uh when he has that stark separation of church and state, he spends all day in Westminster serving his constituency and you know arguing for the public good. And then he comes to a church on a Tuesday evening and he's like, Well, it's either Jesus or nihilism, baby, you know, you know it's Christ or the pit, you know. And so actu actually, you know, whatever whatever you think about Tim Farron and the way that he divides up church and state, um, it certainly enables him to be very clear when you stick him in a church and say, Tim, what do you actually believe?
SPEAKER_01You know, he's not he's not wishy-washy there because he's you know, no, and he he wasn't wishy-washy in yeah, I mean it's it's interesting one, isn't it? That division of uh you know in his views, perhaps. You know, and you can see, can't you? To it to some extent, I can see at least how as Christians uh we're not we're not called to um force non-Christians to live like Christians. That doesn't achieve anything anyway, you know, it just makes things very moral, but still spiritually dead. Yeah. Um so you can kind of see why he would say, Look, I can vote one way and believe other things.
SPEAKER_03It's certainly a liberal argument, isn't it? It's a liberal argument to say, Don't be the thought police on me. Can I not privately believe this and still work for your goods? Yeah. And it's it's just ironic that a society that prides itself on liberalism says, No, you can't think that. That is the wrong thing to think. You thought the bad thing. You thought the bad thing, and now we're gonna pile on you.
SPEAKER_01Liberalism is not about liberty anymore, so we can start thinking the the very wrong thing. Tweet that, you know. No, don't, because I'll be uh I'll be pillaried by the left.
SPEAKER_03Man. So that was that was last week, and there was a whole week of mission at all souls langer place called Real Live. Start the conversation, and we pray that the conversation has been started with a number of people. So what was interesting to me as as I've sort of reflected on the week is that there were sort of five midweek interviews, and then I spoke, and there were high-profile people like Mary Berry and Tim Farron and Canon Andrew White on the Friday nights. And uh, if you want to see what he said uh in the comments below, uh if you're watching on Facebook, uh on the comments below, uh there is a link to uh what he said. He was he was stunning. And Martin Bashir was interviewing him with characteristic angularity.
SPEAKER_01Oh well I didn't watching it back on the video because I wasn't there that evening, I didn't even know it was Martin Bashir. Because then you never see his face. And I'm going, I know that voice. Yes. I just want to get a look at him. Like just get a look at him. Who is it? But never saw him. So he's the guy who interviewed. Was that was that an intentional thing?
SPEAKER_03You know. Um yeah, it was dead very intentional. Is he not very attractive? Don't do the close-ups.
SPEAKER_01That's his best side. 540p at most. That's right.
SPEAKER_03Smith and Vaseline on the lens. No, he is a very attractive person.
SPEAKER_01Sure, a beautiful man, Martin.
SPEAKER_03He wanted the full attention of Canon Andrew White, and he he wanted to have a a more intimate discussion where he wouldn't let Andrew White get away with anything, like playing to the crowd and that sort of thing. Right. So at many points, Martin Bashir, and do check it out. Um, it's you can you can find it on YouTube. Um, you can well you no, you can definitely find it on Facebook uh if you look for Real Lives London, and you'll find it in the comment section of this book.
SPEAKER_01We'll put a link in because it's not as easy to get yes.
SPEAKER_03So but but he was constantly sort of saying, but Andrew White, that sounds like mumbo jumbo to me.
SPEAKER_01You know, you talk about your experience of Christ and it was really weird for me watching it, having not chatted to you about it, so I didn't know any of what had got on. Because I was thinking this interview seems he's a bit rude. Yeah, yeah. Andrew, look at me. Yeah, yeah. Look at me, Andrew. Yeah, you know, back in the room. There were people.
SPEAKER_03They came up to they came up to both Rico Tyson and me and they said, uh, well, it was good that Martin Bashir was there, wasn't it? He got to hear the gospel. He definitely needs the gospel. Like, no, he's definitely a Christian. He's just on the side of everyone else in the room who's not, and he wants to put the question that he that he thinks the non-Christian will ask. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well he did a good job of it because he did a great job of it. You know, he certainly came he certainly came across as someone who who wasn't pulling his punches, you know. I'm not sure. I mean I I assumed of that I as I was watching it, I was like, of course this guy, whoever it was, because I couldn't see, must be a must be a Christian. Well because yeah, they wouldn't just chuck a random non-Christian up the front to interview. Yeah, no, but you know, I I could sense I was like, oh, he's asking questions very much to be devil's advocate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well that's I mean that's uh for better or for worse, that seems to be the kind of journalism that we have, but uh but I think I think used used for good on this occasion.
SPEAKER_01Well I think it is good because often you know you've been at you you can go to things and you you wish even as a Christian, you hear someone interviewing and you wish the interviewer had asked something. Yeah, yeah. And you think why didn't they ask that? Why didn't you push a bit harder? Yeah, yeah. Because you sit there and think, if I was a non-Christian here, I'd be thinking this right now in response. Right. So I want to pre- if I was interviewing, I'd want to preempt that and kind of come back at it with a question.
SPEAKER_03Martin Yeah, and Mart Michael definitely did that and definitely pushed it in the right directions. Um But you know, yeah. It was good. He's an in he knows what he's doing. He kind of knows what he's doing, you know. He uh so he, you know, he he broke all the um um the the doping scandal in in American cycling and he uh Hey, we've got a visitor. Andy Brinkley is live on the Facebook Live Cast. We're live, yeah. We we we started a bit early. Yeah, yeah. It's good to see you though. You can uh Oh, is it on pause? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yes, Andy Brinkley has arrived and he's and within ten seconds he's already identified something we've done wrong. But he's right.
SPEAKER_01He's right to timing, man.
SPEAKER_03But the thing I was thinking about, the these these five uh events uh at all souls, and then it was top and tail by Sunday. So I was preaching Sunday uh um morning and evening at the beginning of the week and at the end of the week. And actually that's where we saw the most fruit. That's where we saw the most people coming up afterwards and saying, I want to follow Jesus now. Nice. Um so that's that's just interesting that we you know we get big names to come along midweek and it's fantastic. And we put on really good events. There was a free bar, there was great canopies, it was it was a really west end kind of production.
SPEAKER_01Top n it was top level. It was from a big church. Yeah. You know, it where it is, you'd expect it to be kind of up there in terms of production values, basically, you know.
SPEAKER_03And it was, but actually a very s you know, four very simple church services at either end, where there was no you know, there's there was just me, right? So there was no Razmatazz. Um and it just reminded me that Sunday is where the action's at, you know, the Lord's people gathered around the Lord's table on the Lord's Day, hearing from scripture. That's that's really where where the magic happens.
SPEAKER_01And I think as Christians we often think, oh no, Sunday is not where it's gonna happen. Because we kind of go, Have you seen Sunday? Like we go, I'm not sure my non-Christian friends would think much of this. No, don't ring me now. I'm having that's my uh Was that Andy? No Andy is like I need to talk to you guys. No, I'm having a new front door put in this week at some point. So Oh, you should take that. Honestly. This is Well, I didn't have it put in the other day because of the snow. Uh-huh and the guy couldn't get to me. And I also said it's minus five outside. I don't really fancy having the front door of my house taken off for a whole day.
SPEAKER_03Um blew the doors off. Yeah. What were we talking about? Sundays. Sundays.
SPEAKER_01Sunday we think you know. I think we sometimes think, you know, what would our non-Christian friends think about Sunday?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um the interesting thing is that we've had a few people come to our church recently, or up at All Saints, the the main church, you know, completely out of the blue, or friends invited them along and they've and they've just been blown away by it. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And you know, one guy was saying, Oh, this guy came and he was just in tears. And I said, Well, yeah, I've I've been in tears for a few services as well, probably for different reasons. But um, you know, people are really you know, we we another couple who you know came or went to another church somewhere at Christmas, and the lady said she just c cried all the way through, and I to me, I just think you know, we're so used to Sunday, yeah. And often we can find so much fault with our things as well. We think, oh no, this has happened and the AV's broken again, or the music group's you know, fallen down and uh and we kind of think actually the big thing, the the thing we need is the big events.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I said to you as well, I mean, I even though it'd been teed up that there'd be the the interview and then a talk we can do the talks it it still felt I I felt for you because it still felt hard to just get up and it was like a change of it was a real change of gear even then, yeah. Um not quite a change of gear like dodgeball to talk as we had at Glasgow University, which is a real change of gears. Yeah. But so I mean i is there Do you think there's a better way of doing those evenings? Like I mean, or do you just need to do those to tee up Sundays?
SPEAKER_03I you know, I I I think they did them as as good as those evenings can be. And and I just think, yeah, Sundays where where the real action's at. Um Yeah, it's it's got a bit, you know, Jesus said, by this all people will know that you're my disciples if you put on a great event on a Wednesday night with canopies. You know, no, if you have love for one another. And and this is what people are seeing when they come into church on a Sunday, you know, and s and maybe the AV is completely packed it in and you know the PowerPoint slide does not advance quickly enough. And and people, if you're on if you're on PowerPoint, as soon as we've sung that last word from the last slide, forget it, get ri we don't need that slide.
SPEAKER_01Get moving, preempt. Why do you do a preempt?
SPEAKER_03Oh anyway. In fact, we don't even need honestly, if you flicked to the next slide as we are s singing the last line, no one would would skip a beat. Just a top tip for you there. But you know, by this all people will know you're my disciples if your PowerPoint operates smoothly. Absolutely, yeah. But no, it's it's love, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It's it's the loving community of of people gathering together, and that's Well, we were talking about this when I was preaching the other day on Titus III and saying actually we're very distinct we you know, about being distinctive, we look different. And sometimes we don't think we do, but we do actually as Christians. Yeah. Um and just the fact that people come you know, a lot of groups outside the church are very homogenous. Right. You know, like group people who have the same interests go to an interest group, and it will generally be people from a a similar background and whatnot. And you hang around with people who are like you and like the same things as you. Yeah, you know, there's a whole wealth of ages, different backgrounds, different interests, you know, there's loads of people that church. Yeah, no in Crobra. We only have one class in Crobro, really.
SPEAKER_03That's all you are. Yeah. Yeah, I I think we missed that the the class thing that's um you know, I mean I mean in our identity politics these days it's all about gender, race and sexuality. Um but actually actually churches are the are the places where yeah, where different educational attainments and different tax brackets rub shoulders with one another in in a way that you know you don't get anywhere else except maybe the maybe Tesco's on a you know on a Saturday afternoon or or you know or the terrace football terraces, you know. Yeah like where where else do you actually throw together people? Um and actually we are you know they've they've done studies and and churches are the most diverse communities in the country.
SPEAKER_01So you know Yeah, and then that there are and there's there's definitely there are people you just think in church, I I mean I've literally got nothing in common with you apart from Jesus. Jesus, that is the only thing, you know, and you think we there's no way we would even cross paths otherwise.
SPEAKER_03Exactly, and you're actually loving one another and serving one another. Yeah, amazing. So there are some reflections from uh from all souls and uh this week uh you and I are speaking at Bishop Hannington Hove Church uh in Hove actually, not not Brighton, but it's a conurbation.
SPEAKER_01Hove actually, the less successful sequel to Love Actually.
SPEAKER_03Um so doing a youth mission. Uh what are you gonna talk about?
SPEAKER_01Uh Jesus. Good. That was always a good starting point. Uh yeah, so I'm I'm there Friday night and I'm speaking um I'm gonna be speaking on cleansing the temple in John. And I think the angle I'm gonna take is along the lines of you know, what if if you want to meet with God, where where do you go to meet with God? And we'll talk a bit about you know, maybe some different things people might say if you want to you know have some kind of experience, you know, how how different people's views might be. And then we'll pick up a bit in the the passage of you know, for the Jews the temple was a big place, and of course Jesus turned up completely the whip, interestingly. Um and of course his claim ultimately is that he is the the temple, you know, they tear down this temple in three days I'll build it up, uh raise it up. Um and actually just the I think the thing I really want to draw out from there is that if you want to just as the Jews would have gone to the physical temple, the place where God dwelt and dwelt amongst his people, the place where God's rule is shown, um actually now you go to Jesus. Jesus is the the place to go to meet with God. You don't go to a building, you go to a person, so it's not where you go, it's who'd you go to.
SPEAKER_03Nice. Um and to pick up on the conversation, I'm this is not what you should say on Sun on Friday, but you know, and we are living stones being built together in that temple. So like where do you go to meet with God? You know, is it the Wednesday night thing with the canopies? You know, well well big well, yeah, because you're seeing the living stones built together there on a Wednesday as well. But you go to church, don't you?
SPEAKER_01Like we are now the the Yeah, in the ki the community of in the body of Christ, isn't it really?
SPEAKER_03That's what it is, the body of Christ and there in the word and Yeah, and Christ and his people. Good. And you're speaking. Uh yes. Don't ask me on what I'm speaking about. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. Something about Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I was gonna I said to Glenn last week I almost asked him in the middle of the middle of the week, what are you speaking on next week so I can just, you know, not duplicate? And then I thought he's writing his talk for this evening at the moment, so probably probably not that uh up with what you're doing next week. I have no idea.
SPEAKER_03I mean, and people want to get ahead, like they're a bit like you asked me, but like, am I doing a mission in Crober in is it November, October? October, November time. Yeah, and I didn't even know what you would do.
SPEAKER_01I have no idea. Shocking.
SPEAKER_03I have no idea. There's a there was a guy who emailed me yesterday saying, Can we talk about this interview you're doing with me? And I'm like, I don't when am I and apparently it's in a week. And but you know, that that's like 10 talks away. I don't know. But we will. We'll we'll get together and that'll be good. Carl Palmer has just said on the live cast, I'm with you on the PowerPoint slide delay issue.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that Carl Palmer of Emerson Lakin Palmer?
SPEAKER_03Maybe. Was Carl Palmer maybe you know this. So answer that question. But also, wasn't there Carl Palmer on neighbours? Wasn't he a doctor?
SPEAKER_01You're thinking of Carl Kennedy. Kennedy. Carl Kennedy, obviously. Because Carl Kennedy was very popular on the student circuit. Yeah. He would come over and do his songs with bands.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01Twin Peaks.
SPEAKER_03Laura Palmer's dad was not Carl Palmer, was it?
SPEAKER_01Carl Palmer. Well, I don't know. I just know Carl Palmer is the drummer from Emerson Lake and Palmer. Oh, he was? He's the one I saw at Trading Boundaries not long ago. Really?
SPEAKER_03And he's a fan of the live cast. Wow. Who would have thought it? Let's do a Wednesday evening interview. Yeah, Carl, come in. With canopies. That's the key. Yeah, yeah. PowerPoint slide delay. Why? Why, people? Let's do a whole edition on how to find out.
SPEAKER_01I like to have control of my own PowerPoint during uh a talk. Right. That's very important to me. Yeah. I don't want other people in control.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I yeah, that's you've got issues, Paul. That's well, that's true. We knew that. We already knew that. Kieran McKnight has joined us from the UAE, United Arab Emirates. Wow. I believe. I hope that's what that is.
SPEAKER_01I wonder what the time difference is in the United Arab Emirates. Kieran, what's the time difference?
SPEAKER_03Let us know. Oh, Carl has just said you are showing your age with the Eberson Lake and Palmer.
SPEAKER_01Believe me, Emerson Lake and Palmer is before my time, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03But still, it's still the sort of thing that only an older person would know. Uh good. Okay, so let's let's move on to Easter. So we're thinking about Easter coming up. Yep. And uh literally we've got like 10 videos at least in the pipeline um coming up. And uh we just wanted to give you a taste for one of them. Uh the music isn't quite what it's going to be, but let's just give you 45 seconds of uh uh these poems. Um I'm kind of doing this thing on the theme of Easter and comedy because April Fool's Day will be Easter Sunday this year. And uh and so it's called A Funny Thing Happened uh on the way to Jerusalem, and it's a poem so it's meant to look a little bit like stand-up comedy, and uh and it's all about Palm Sunday, so let's have a watch. So there's this guy who says that he's God repeatedly. Uh and he's not a fraud, he's the still sensor of sanity, no hint of vanity. Purest humanity, but he's God, and he needs you to know that he's God. He's God on a mission. He's got a real Messiah complex, the original condition. A messiah complex with a death wish, and and that's the joke. Because when he spoke his claim, all would complain, crying, prove it! And he says, I'll show you I'm God, so watch me die. Which is odd as a sign of deity, but he doesn't just say it. He hurls himself fierce at the grave, declaring that this is the behaviour of divinity. When we come out of the video, you back. Are we back? Can you hear us now?
SPEAKER_01Here we are. So actually, since we came back in the video, people haven't heard a word we've said. Very sorry about that. It's because we were talking about you and we didn't want you to hear us. Yes, right.
SPEAKER_03Hopefully, Biddy and Kieran. Um You'll have to remember that for the next video we do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. See, we're we're basically continually battling technical, technical problems here, aren't we?
SPEAKER_03Um why didn't Andy come in then? Yeah. Then he could have.
SPEAKER_01You only came in to point out that we paused something.
SPEAKER_03Ah, Biddy says hi.
SPEAKER_01Um Brilliant, back in the back in the room.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that that must mean she's heard me, doesn't it? Yeah. I don't need to now ask her, have you heard me? Hello. So that was one of three poems, uh and one of four poems, actually. Three poems are about the ironies of Easter. We've got um Palm Sunday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, three poems about that in the sort of the stand-up style. And then we've got another stop mo stop motion animation. Yeah, and that's about com you know, Easter is the great comedy. And then we've got a bunch of interviews that I'm doing with James Carey and uh yeah, all about again the ironies of Easter and the way in which Easter can be considered a comedy. And uh yeah, we hope that they can be useful for the church and useful for you as you get them on the Speak Life channel and then forward them on.
SPEAKER_01Any any ideas when some of those are coming out? I s I know some are being finished.
SPEAKER_03I think all of them will all of them will be ready in the next week, ten days or so.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, yeah. We're gonna be hit with a glut of videos. I know we'll try and spread it out a bit, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_03We will. We will. Um so yeah, if you uh if you're not already subscribed to the uh Facebook page, subscribe to Speak Life UK uh on Facebook, subscribe to us on YouTube, and uh you'll be the first to get them. Yeah, absolutely. Now, this week uh our thorny question. Uh every week we try to do uh some kind of thorny question, some issue of faith that people have. And we thought we'd start to address the the issue of science, and I'm sure we'll have many videos on science, but we've got two in a row that are happening. Uh is faith the enemy of science, and then next week is science the enemy of faith. And uh why don't we have a look at sort of the first minute or so, and uh that can spark off a conversation about faith and science. And we're gonna say, just see if you notice anything about the video. Yes, okay. Not giving anything away. Is faith the enemy of science? Let's begin with a fictional story. Uh Betty the botanist is in her lab. Gareth, the lab assistant, walks in and she says, Gareth, thanks so much for the botanical specimen that you gave me last week. I've been working on it nonstop since that moment, running spectral analyses. I've figured out whole ecosystems living on the leaves. I've discovered pharmacological properties that will help us in the fight against Alzheimer's, and I've just finished mapping its genome first for this species. I can't thank you enough for giving me that specimen. Specimen, says Gareth. It was February the 14th. Valentine's Day? It was a long-stemmed rose, Betty. Do you understand what I gave to you?
SPEAKER_02Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?
SPEAKER_01Does Betty get it? Does Betty understand the rose? Well, from one perspective, she understands it better than anyone else on the planet. From another perspective, she really doesn't get it. She doesn't understand the meaning of the rose, even if she understands the material and its mechanisms. There are ways of understanding the rose that go beyond mapping its genome. And those other kinds of meaning are not in the realm of magic and pixie dust. There are personal, cultural, linguistic, and romantic forces at play, and those realms are important too. What if the whole world is like that rose? We could look at it scientifically, but there are lots of other ways we can investigate it too. Because the scientific investigation of the world doesn't exhaust it of its true meaning, right? Unless you want to be like Betty saying, I understand the rose fully because I've mapped its genome. But no one wants to be like Betty, do they?
SPEAKER_03So no one wants to be like Betty. Uh uh.
SPEAKER_01That's the big issue.
SPEAKER_03No one wants to be like Betty. So did did uh are we can people hear us?
SPEAKER_01Should be able to see the mic's uh picking up, so we should be okay.
SPEAKER_03So uh did anybody notice? Anyone notice the thing? What was different? What was different about one of these videos, not like the other one. One of these videos are not quite the same.
SPEAKER_01Well we see if people notice. Let's Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Let's not let's not wait until one of our eight viewers uh manages to type. But uh yeah, I I think this Betty thing that I do, it I kind of ripped it off from John Lennox. Um so he he professor of mathematics at Oxford University and a Christian, and he often talks about a cake, and he sort of says, you know, here is a cake. Um think of all the great science you can do on it. You can sort of reverse engineer and get the recipe from just looking at the cake, you can talk about the nutrition of it, you can boil it down to its, I don't know, sort of chemical elements. Yes. You can, I don't know, figure out the physics of cakes somehow, its mass and energy and I don't know. Yep. And but, you know, do you know why the cake was baked? Like, no. No. No, you have to ask the baker, and then you know, apparently it's because it's it's Simon's birthday cake. Hooray, you know. Um and and to know that it's Simon's birthday cake i is a different kind of order of knowledge to knowing its nutritional content. But both those things are important to know. It's just that you can't ask the cake about Simon's birthday. No. You know? No. And and so I I kind of yeah, I sort of use that to do the long stem rose. The long stem rose is both a love gift for a Valentine's, you know, kind of gesture. And it's also a botanical specimen, and go for your life, do all the science you like on it. But if you think that you have exhausted the meaning of the rose because you've mapped its genome, you're a moron. Like so if there are any morons out there, yeah, do let us know what you think. Uh but you know, I mean you might be a genius. You know, you might get the Nobel Prize for botany. There probably isn't a Nobel Prize for Botany, but you could you could you could, you know, be a genius at science and a total moron at life, right? And we would and we would say to Betty, you like like you're you're smart in one area, you're not smart in another area. Um and and this other area is a really important thing to know about. And what if the world is like that long stem rose? What if the world is a love gift from somebody who's trying to communicate something? Well, fine, map genomes all you like, but you might need to hear from that lover, you know? And that's what we mean by by faith, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and also and also, I mean, not only I suppose in in that example are we saying there are different orders of knowledge. Um but probably with that example we would say that you yes, you can you could know it uh uh you could map the genome, you could do all the things like that. Um are we saying at least on that example in a sense both are not necessarily equal either, because you can do all that and you've you've still missed the points. Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, so it's not just like here's right, here's one order of information, here's another order of knowledge, right? And they're just different and that's it. Yeah, we're actually saying, well no, you've you've you've totally missed the point. Yeah. You know, you wouldn't say, well, then you know, you enjoy your genome side of it, and I'll enjoy my Valentine's gift.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. At that stage, I'd rather the Valentine's gift, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If I'd given it to someone and they thought I'm going to enjoy the genome side of it, I'd probably think I'd I might have it back and know I want to date this person.
SPEAKER_03This lab assistant is wasting his time. Hey, Becca Joy, Feezy is joined. Oh no. Oh no. She's the worst. We have that. We have that now forever. It's the Facebook Live. Let me explain something about social media for.
SPEAKER_01I can't take it back. It is in trouble with my in-laws first. It is irreversible. Talking about Christmas traditions. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, you just called your wife the worst. I think you've now talked. I love you. We're just speaking about Valentine's gifts, and this is what you do. Um But yeah, no, I I and that's why I use the the language of Betty as a moron, right? Because like um she can be very smart in the lab, but if she if she actually isolates the lab and says that this is the totality of human knowledge, that makes her a moron. That makes her a fool. In biblical language, you know, the fool says in his heart, there is no God. And in a sense, you know, the scientist who says umly what my net catches is fish, right? You know, it's it's like the old story, you know, uh a fisherman says, I've got the most incredible net. It catches all fish. You know, you stick it in the lake and it will catch all fish. And you know, you sort of say, Well, it didn't catch that fish, it didn't catch that fish, it didn't catch that fish. And the and the and the fisherman goes, Well, that's not fish, though. Those aren't really fish. You know. What my net doesn't catch ain't fish. And that's the scientist who says, you know, the only kind of knowledge that's worth gathering is the one that I happen to have gathered. Empirical. Right. You're a moron, if you say that. A total moron. Like a fool. In in in Can I underline this?
SPEAKER_01Just let it out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So um, but you can be very clever in the laboratory. And you can still be clever in the laboratory and not be a fool. It's just don't claim that everything that's ever worth knowing is is what's found under a microscope. That's the foolish thing.
SPEAKER_01Reminds me a bit of that Mitchell and Webb sketch. Have you seen where he says uh there's a guy who's a a brain surgeon? Yes. And then you meet someone at a party and he's asked what they do, and he's told them he's a brain surgeon. Every time he meets someone he goes, Well, it's not exactly brain surgery, is it? And then at the end, another guy comes in and says, What do you do? Well, I um I do uh mostly uh work with um rockets. Science for under rocket. And I'm sure you can see where that's going.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. But um it's not rocket surgery. It's not rocket surgery. Um there is this idea that science and faith are at war with one another. Yeah. Like, and it's so frustrating.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it is uh I mean the number of times people people use it, don't they? They say, Ah, but what about science? You know? And like like that's the kind of killer blow to your kind of Christian faith. Ah, but I'm more of a science person. What about science?
SPEAKER_03And it's just like why don't they say, uh, I'm more of an architecture person? It's just so I'm more into contract law.
SPEAKER_01Good on you. And but it's the way people like rugby. It's that killer blow, don't they? They go, Ah, but you know, science is obviously completely disproved faith. Yeah. And and I was saying to you earlier, you know, I just find it so strange. I said I uh when I was a youth worker, you expect that when you go to secondary schools and you do Q ⁇ As, Gorilla Christians, and people go, Oh, what about science? you know. Because they're teenagers, you know. And like teenagers are great. But there's there's been lots of areas in which they perhaps not Yeah. Yeah. We'll go from there. Not quite developed all their you know, views on some things.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01But when I meet adults who say that, I just think surely you're I mean, how stupid you have to be to still More on schools. To still think. Yeah. I mean, and and the and I think the reason is, and we we talked about this a little bit earlier today, there actually a lot of people people are not challenged on the whole to think through their assumptions. So they just think, well, science, there you go.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01And and then not having to wrestle with another worldview. Yes. Um whereas as Christians, we have a worldview, a Christian worldview, and then science is there as well. Yes. And we kind of go, well, we've got to fit these together. Yes. Um but it's the way people set up this kind of false dichotomy that's very, very frustrating.
SPEAKER_03Um it is it is exactly equivalent. If someone says to you, Oh, I could never be a person of faith because I'm a person of science, it's exactly equivalent to saying, I could never be a person of faith because I enjoy rugby. I could never be a person of faith because I'm into architecture, I'm into contract law, I'm into like like science is uh a method of investigating the natural world, and it's wonderful, and Christians like the church has birthed this thing called the modern scientific, you know, method, and you're welcome, you're welcome, world. That's not but to then turn turn around and say, Oh, I couldn't be a person of faith because I'm a person of science. Well, for a start, you know, when when I was at St Andrews University, um, I was asked to speak on this topic, and I think it was the first topic of the week. And because people want to know, like, could you possibly be a Christian and a scientist? And I I just started the talk by saying, if you're a member of the Christian Union and you're doing one of the STEM subjects, you know, so science, technology, engineering, maths, can you put up your hands? And literally three-quarters of the room, the hands go up, and I'm like, Well, I'll just sit down. Unless you think all these guys are failing their subject.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they get an F on their paper and they're like, Oh, Jesus, you cost me my you know, my degree again. Can't be a Christian, can't like Jesus makes me math stupid.
SPEAKER_01Like, no. Anyway, um, so and and you know, uh so like you say, science has come out of that Christian worldview that there is there is a a creator who has made things that are ordered and therefore we can study them and find order and patterns. Yes. Um and so many renowned scientists from the centuries have been people of faith, whether whether they were explicitly Christian, not not necessarily all of them, but belief in God drive them out of the laboratory.
SPEAKER_03And in fact, belief in God in this video, have a look at it. But in in this video, we make the case that belief in God should send you into the laboratory. And may and maybe Betty receives the long stem rose and thinks, I want to know more about this rose, and okay, fantastic. And maybe maybe if if I want to know what love is. I want to know what love is. I want to map its genome. Um and but you know, if if the whole world is a love gift, then yeah, absolutely. One of one of the responses is to go into the world, go into the laboratory and and and find out as much as we can from it. Um Simon Naish uh hello, Simon has asked the question. I have a family member who wants me to support my faith with facts and science. For me, the Bible is enough, but what would you say? Um Well, I guess the Bible is definitely enough to know about the deepest issues in in the world. Like, as Betty receives that rose, like from you know her lab assistant, all she needs to know is that he loves her, right? All all she needs to know is his words, I love you, and then she understands the rose like better than most people, right? Um to then say you need to go and have facts and science, um well, you can do, and it can be supportive and it can be corroborative evidence. Um but you're you're absolutely right that the Bible is basically saying this world is a love gift from someone who loves you when you receive that love. And you can just say yes, and that's enough, right?
SPEAKER_01Um It would be interesting to know I I I think I want to know what what with what kind of things is that person wanting to hear, like what what science slash facts are they thinking? Because people you know, so so you know, we might go to the Bible, and people go, ah, but you can't have the Bible. Sorry, it's not fish. You know, like that's not part of the net. Yeah. And and that's the issue, that's part of the issue, isn't it? And I mean, I think it is great. I mean, faith is not blind faith, you know. Right. I mean, now that's a big thing that comes up with Lennox and Dawkins, isn't it? Right. Dawkins is insistent that you know, if you're talking about faith, it's basically just nonsense that you're you're believing. Making yourself believe. But you know, we uh people use you know all kinds of trivial examples, don't they? But you know, faith in you know, when you sit on a chair, you know, you you you're look you've you've assessed some form of evidence you've looked at the chair and you thought that is going to support my weight. Yeah. You know, it's not just fingers crossed, yeah, go, close my eyes and open up the floor. Yeah, yeah. Um and there is you know, I think I think the good thing about Christianity, lots of good things about Christianity. And you love your wife. And and my wife. The good thing about Christianity. Um is uh that actually there is so much verifiable evidence for it, you know, that and uh I mean that's never gonna be enough for people. Yeah, you know, because we've seen in other Thorny question videos we're truth twisters and deceivers and all kinds of things like that. But the fact is we can go to historical documents and evidence and say, well, look, there is stuff there. Yes. Um, you know, and stuff outside of the Bible corroborates the Bible, and if we look at how reliable the Bible is compared to other historical texts, loads of stuff. Just I mean it's so you know, it's there are plenty of parts of history that we take for granted. Like uh Caesar's a good one, isn't it? You know, when you talk about you know, and but actually we've the documents about him and his life are hundreds of years after his time. Right, the earliest time. We only have like one or two copies or something like that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Whereas Christian, you know, the Bible has twenty-five thousand fragments and documents and near the time, blah blah blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_03So the documentary evidence for the Bible's very good. And next next week, tune in, Simon, next week, because we're gonna do um part two of this science and faith um discussion where we talk about four scientific facts that actually um are far better explained on the basis of Christianity than they are on the basis of atheism. So those four facts are everything came from nothing, order has come from chaos, life has come from non-life, and consciousness has come from mindless matter, and like all of those things are the most stunning miracles you've ever like thought about. If there is no God, if there is no God and everything came from nothing, and if there is no gods and you know, order came from chaos, and if there is no God and life came from non-life, and if there is no god and we've got these conscious minds that are just have just emerged from mindless matter, those are the four most insane miracles that humanity has ever dreamt up, right? And like every no no religion on earth has ever come up with anything as absurd as everything from nothing for no reason, right? Um so you know, when when you when you're asked for, you know, are they supporting, you know, we're all we've all got the same facts, if you like. Everyone's got the same facts. We're all living in the same universe. I've got this conscious mind, this these this two pounds of gray matter that is processing a world of incredible cosmic order, and I can only do science because there is incredibly rationally ordered, rationally comprehensible laws. I can only do it because my mind is somehow in tune with those laws and can access the the world and test it against the laws up above and think through very hard. And we've all got the same facts, right, about the world. The Bible gives you the goggles that you look through, and those goggles that you look through say, Well, of course, of course there are laws up above because God has always had his logos, his logic, Jesus Christ, and he orders the universe in that way, and he's intended for us to know his logos, his logic, Jesus. And therefore our minds are intended to know the deepest mysteries of the world. And so the fact that science works is no mystery for me whatsoever. But it is but take away the goggles of the Bible and put on the goggles of atheistic, naturalistic materialism, and why on earth should any of this stuff work? Why should there be a cosmos and not a chaos? And why should this two pounds of grey matter that has just emerged out of a process? Of slime, struggle, and selfishness. How should this two pounds of grey matter ever grasp the mysteries of the cosmos? That makes no sense, right? So the atheist has got their goggles on. They're looking at the same facts as we are, right? But but it doesn't fit and it doesn't make sense of the world around them. We've got the Bible as a pair of goggles, and we look at the exact same world. We're not denying the world, we're not denying any of those facts. But the Bible gives us the grounds for believing in science and believing in all the things that make make most sense to you and me. So th those would be some of the um Yeah, Simon's asked, any recommendations for verifiable evidence? Tune in for next week's thorny uh thorny question video Monday night at seven pm. We'll launch that video and uh it's got got uh those four facts that science will tell you, and all of them point to faith.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think that's help helpful. I think we were talking about it earlier. It's not science versus it's more that faith uh it's more a naturalism, atheistic naturalism, isn't it? Yes. Um versus versus Jesus, really, isn't it? And and that's what's gonna come out in next week's video, isn't it, really? That the a lot of these things that if you're saying it's purely unguided, you know, chance. I mean wow, that's faith. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly, exactly. Uh we we had a message and we we we've got a uh we've got to shut up very quickly, but um we had a message uh actually from from uh David Lowry's who asked um what do we mean by faith in our video? Um because in one sense uh like everybody has faith, like we we all have these pre-commitments to things, and you can't you can't live for an entire you know minute without taking certain things for granted and having certain presuppositions and pre-commitments. Um but I guess faith uh and and faith in the world's eyes means absurdities, you know, finding within yourself the resolve to to believe things that are nonsense. That tends to be what people think of as faith. What what I'm meaning by faith, um what we're meaning in this video, I think, is um what we need to be told by God. You know, so so God needs to tell us stuff about the nature of the world, and and that comes in the Bible, comes in the person of Jesus. Um faith is listening to God's revelation. Um and so therefore, you know, the Bible as is as John Calvin said, this pair of spectacles that we look at the evidence with. So I've got my spectacles, the Buddhist has his spectacles, the atheist has her spectacles, and we're all looking through our different pre-commitments, but my faith position is that Jesus is Lord, the Bible is true, um and and God loves the world and has intended it in the same way that Gareth the lab assistant loves uh Betty the botanist, but he needs to tell her, you know? That kind of thing. Lots more to say about science. We'll um we'll return to this subject next week when we have a look at is science the enemy of faith? And uh yeah, we'll let you know how our Bishop Hannington Hove mission has gone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And uh and hopefully some of these videos will start to uh trickle into your feed and you can send them out into the world. And are you gonna be around? Uh when's this so the London City mission? There's this uh there is this mission in London, and uh yes, stay tuned.
SPEAKER_00For details.
SPEAKER_03Yes, Paul needs to um be my secretary as well. He's gonna look at my schedule.
SPEAKER_01I don't think I would take on that job and figure out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, no one wants that job. Man, man. Getting me in order. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for listening. If you're listening on the podcast, that'll be uh releasing on uh your podcatchers.
SPEAKER_01We never said we did anyone ever notice about the video? Oh, yeah. Noticing there was no music on the video. No music, yeah. Yeah. Better or worse. Better or worse.
SPEAKER_03Let us know what you think. Does it need something?
SPEAKER_01Does it need maybe a bit of slayer or something, you know. Science and face. So I mean we have that on constantly in the office anyway, so.
SPEAKER_03Livecast, live cast, welcome to the live cast. We do need a theme tune. Um we'll we'll get into production on that.
SPEAKER_01If you want to. Yeah, so maybe someone could maybe someone could do it for us. Yeah. Write the theme tune. Sing the theme tune. Sing the text.
SPEAKER_03Very good. Well, that's about it for uh now. Why don't you uh like this video and send it around to your friends and uh we'll see you.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't ask that question. Why don't you like it?
SPEAKER_03Well, 17 reasons why. Somebody said today on uh on one of our Reading Between the Lines uh videos, and did you know that we do a Reading Between the Lines podcast daily where uh you get taken through the Bible phrase by phrase. Um but somebody said uh I love your teaching, Glenn, but you suck your teeth too much.
SPEAKER_01What I love about what I love about um I love about Facebook and YouTube is that I don't know if some people sometimes just forget this is public, right? Like you know there's it there are people on the other side weekly too, you know, okay?
SPEAKER_03Like we should have Jimmy Kimmel's got that thing where celebrities read mean tweets. Oh yeah we should do that, you know. Speak life reads. It wasn't a mean comment, I'm sure he was just helping me. But uh I will try not to suck my teeth. I won't I won't eat a bagel next to the microphone.
SPEAKER_01I know that I do have a kind of thing. Yeah, everyone does at the beginning.
SPEAKER_03I notice it when I listen back to sermons or hear it, and I just think oh absolutely everybody does. It's just a sign that you don't like the preacher when you notice it. Basically. Anyway, that's enough from us. We'll see you next week. Yep, take care. Ciao for now. Thanks for listening.