The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_03Hello, everybody. Hello. Yeah. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_06Glenn Scrivener. My name is Paul Feasy. And uh we are from Speak Life. And uh every Tuesday we try to come to you live from our studios here in Eastbourne on the Sunshine Coast.
SPEAKER_04Uh where it's hacking it down with rain. It is today. It's pretty abysmal.
SPEAKER_06But I've I've I've been appreciating the Sunshine Coast quite a bit because I've been up in uh St Andrews in Scotland. Oh yes. Which like never has four degrees seemed so cold. Like four degrees is coldish, but four degrees is like is like minus twenty. Yep. When you experience it with the windshield factor and everything else going on at St Andrews, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So why uh what what were you doing up there? For those of us who don't know.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So I was up there with uh a university Christian Union. Are you absolutely sure we're live now? Let's just go with it.
SPEAKER_04Because I mean if my screen's not telling me that anything's happening.
SPEAKER_06No, no, no, we're definitely going live. You sure otherwise, why would you talk to me? Is that unless that's real.
SPEAKER_04There may be people sitting there going, Yeah, nothing's happening. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Well, if they're not watching, listening, you'd learn from me, Paul. We would we would connect, we would have a conversation.
SPEAKER_04I would have got lots from it.
SPEAKER_06And that would have been Tim Basby Burney says trying to find time to watch these Peterson videos is hard work. I can see and hear you, says Tim VB. Excellent, that's good to know.
SPEAKER_04We're just to clarify, if if I seem a little distracted, it's not because Glenn is uninteresting.
SPEAKER_06It is in addition to me being interesting.
SPEAKER_04It's a whole yeah, double double whammy that uh I am running all the gear as well as trying to actually engage my brain as well.
SPEAKER_06We're getting ready for being Andy Brinkliless. Yeah. And to be brinkless is uh to be rudderless. Uh yeah. He is going on sabbatical. Uh he's he's been with Speak Life for like 17 years, 18 years. Andy, write a comment on Facebook and tell us how long you've been with us.
SPEAKER_04But he's not watching, he said he's not gonna watch.
SPEAKER_06He's not gonna watch.
SPEAKER_04No, because he didn't want to disrupt the stream by using the man. If things go wrong, what are we gonna do? We have to shout. We just have to shout very loud from our soundproof room.
SPEAKER_06Man, Naomi XL says, Hello, I'm watching. Hello, Naomi Naomi. Mark Henry, you're live. No, you're live. Um In many ways, aren't we all live? And yet anyway.
SPEAKER_04Um talk about St Andrews. Um so you've been up in St Andrews. Yes. Um and uh actually both of us have been north of the border over the last couple of weeks.
SPEAKER_06Glasgow or Glasgow.
SPEAKER_04Glasgow or Glasgow. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So we've been off at the University Mission Week, so University of Glasgow and then University of St Andrews. Glenn and I were both at um Glasgow, weren't we? Um which was the week before last. And then you went up to well, you spent the day in Dundee.
SPEAKER_06We spent the weekend in Dundee, uh, which is meant to be the sunniest place in Scotland. Um bode well. This is one of those you know the sunniest place in Scotland. Um so I was there with uh some of the people from Solas, so Andy Bannister, for instance, the director of Solas, and Al Smith, and uh recording some interviews with them, and then I went to St. Peter's uh Dundee. And then from Monday to Friday last week, I was at St Andrews uh helping the Christian Union there reach out to St. Andrews University. And it was a great week of story. As yeah, all the all the missions these days seem to be story. Although you've got one from uh was that reading?
SPEAKER_04I was trying to trying to do it in my own reflect in the video monitor, and I'm yeah. Which way? Left to right? Yeah. Uh convinced that was that was your reading convinced mark. Yeah. Uh when was that? 2015, maybe? Yeah, 2015. That era. Yeah. Or maybe yeah, around then.
SPEAKER_06I enjoyed that outreach. That was great.
SPEAKER_04It was a lot of fun, actually. There was a lot of good stuff there.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And uh we were with yeah, so we were doing the story thing, um, which is kind of uh built around testimonies. And everyone's got a story, what's yours? And let me tell you a Christian story, and then let me tell you how Jesus kind of could be a part of your story. Um Trish Davies Scobel says, Hi Paul and Glenn, watching from my sickbed. Oh wow. Trish Hello Trish. Go well soon. Trish used to cut my hair.
SPEAKER_04Is that right? Yeah. Mobile hairdresser if you need a hairdresser in Crobre.
SPEAKER_06Okay. There you go. But not today. Just tip in there. Um and uh so here's here's what I want to get to, okay. If people were wondering why on earth they're watching. Now we're through the banter. This is a banter freesman. So, okay. The story thing is all about testimonies, and I want to I want to say a word about testimonies, okay. Because love a good testimony, says Lucy Atterby, and so do I, Lucy, so do I. But here's the thing. Is a testimony an answer to the question, can you narrate a spiritual journey from darkness to light? Or is a testimony an answer to the question, how has Jesus helped you in your life? How has Jesus changed your life? And I would I would just urge people to think of it as the latter more than the former. I think we fall into this problem that that's testimonies are I need to be able to tell a story in which I was groping around in the darkness, and then I somehow discovered the light, and now ever since it's been sunshine and rainbows and puppies and glorious. Whereas I I think there's a number of problems with that. Number number one, it makes me the hero of the story. Number two, uh it's a bit of a problem if you've grown up in a Christian home. And what people from a Christian home tend to then do is to sort of kind of almost fabricate, but they don't really, but but they kind of you tell a story in which um, you know, I I guess I was going through real moments of doubt, and you know, I I I didn't know whether to trust the New Testament documents at all. And then aged five, I was convinced that Jesus rose from the dead by, you know, I I think some of the you know first century documentary evidence is really quite strong. And then I backslid when I was eight and you know came back to the little when I was nine. And and kind of the problem that people have when they say I'm I'm from a Christian home, therefore I don't have a very good testimony, I I think it comes from, we kind of think that the whole point is for me to narrate a journey in which I was in darkness and then I found the light and now it's all roses. Whereas if you're telling a testimony in which um you're answering the question, how has Jesus helped you in your life? the non-Christian who's listening in doesn't really care or mind that you grew up in a Christian home, but they really do want to hear how Jesus has helped you with anxiety and depression.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Or if you're a perfectionist and you've really been struggling with perfectionism, they really do want to hear how Jesus has made a difference. And I just wonder if we get hung up on the process of how I came to an assured faith in Jesus, less than what we should focus on, which is Jesus himself coming into our lives. Yeah. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_04And I g I guess like a lot of people, particularly those who've grown up in Christian homes, they do struggle to pinpoint, you know, a moment, don't they? Right. So they they would say so so occasionally when we've done testimony stuff, people have said, you know, oh y think about what you were like before, right. And then maybe it's the point where you were just becoming or, you know, something happened, and then what was it like after? Right. Um, to get those kind of three elements. Yes. And I remember people just saying, Oh, I d I don't really have a before though. They for them it was kind of always there. And of course, then that that's not saying that, you know, uh You don't need to be converted or something. No, no, you know, it's not like they they were saying that you know they were born a Christian and that's what it was. But I mean they Yeah, I mean, even I even myself growing up in a Christian home, right? You know, when people say like when did you become a Christian, I s I say, Well, I became a Christian when I was about sixteen or seventeen but I still think you know I know before that I can't remember a time when I didn't believe in God, right, you know, and I didn't I didn't grasp stuff. I knew the stories I'd been to Sunday school and and all that jazz. Yeah um but it wasn't kind of like real for me, you know. Yeah, it's that whole thing, isn't it? Your parents' yeah faith, inherited faith. Um but I think the temptation is there when you're telling the story to to make it seem worse than it was. Not because I think, like you say, you're not trying to deliberately fabricate a dark past, you know, like and the Lord rescued me from my heroin addiction, you know, and that kind of stuff to make it more dramatic. But I think just when you become a Christian, you become more convicted of your of sinfulness, don't you? And and you probably look back and see stuff in a different light. Yeah. And so actually it's not that you're lying about it, it's just your view has been changed. Yeah. It's like the opposite of a rose tinted spectacle, isn't it? Like an anti.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it must have been really, really dark back then. And and that's and and I wonder how many testimonies throw their youth leaders under the bus as well, because they sort of say, Well, you know, I grew up in church, but I never heard the gospel, and I was completely lost in darkness. And you know, your your youth leaders listening in saying, No, I preach the gospel to you every single Friday, you know, throughout your growing up.
SPEAKER_04And that's the case, isn't it? Even just in I mean, that's a bit of an aside, I suppose, with adults, you know, peep people people sit in church for years and years, don't they? And they'll and they will then maybe there's a moment where they go, Ah, and it all clicks. Yeah, yeah. Um but it's not that they'd never heard it before, it's just something finally goes in, you know, you know, the uh well ultimately is the spirit opens their eyes, isn't it? Um Yeah, but I think you're right, and actually in terms of witnessing, um like w what's the testament for? I mean, the something that kind of changed my view of what is kind of evangelism um was when a guy used the passage where Jesus heals the demoniac. Demoniac, demoniac, demoniac. Okay, yeah. We're not big on pronunciation here, we've learned that before. Uh Demon I believe. Um and he basically just says, Go and tell what the Lord has done for you. That's what it says to him, you know. And it's not it's not a kind of particularly regimented Right Well, th that that's maybe it's a slightly different angle because it certainly wasn't please go and present six. Quite a dramatic story. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I mean it was a different way of thinking about what what does it mean to be a witness. Yeah, I think we often think of being a witness in this in the sense of laying out a kind of gospel outline. And maybe we do that maybe that's why we do our testimonies like that. We we feel like we need to show boxes one and two of two ways to live or whatever it is. Yes.
SPEAKER_03And then we show how we suddenly got into And then I understood penal substitution and atonement, box four people.
SPEAKER_06And everything clicked.
SPEAKER_03Everything clicked.
SPEAKER_06I never really understood the resurrection, but box five doesn't explain the resurrection. So anyway, I just thought I'd slip that in.
SPEAKER_04Other gospel outlines are available.
SPEAKER_06Alright, yeah. Um in three, two, one. But um Lucy Atterby has just said, I became a Christian in my mid-40s. Does that make my testimony more relevant to non-believers? Um and and like in one sense, I think it connects with people who might themselves be in their mid-40s and they're not yet a believer. Um and so they can say, ah, you know, in you, they can see what it might look for for them to trust in Jesus. Um but I I think a testimony from someone who's grown up in a Christian home all their life, and yet, you know, perhaps they're in their mid-40s and they're they're wrestling with whatever, they're wrestling with family troubles, they're wrest wrestling with a bullying boss, they're wrestling with something in the workplace, or whatever, and they can just say, Listen, Jesus has helped me to forgive that person. At that point, when they're telling that testimony of how Jesus has helped them in life, it doesn't matter how that person came to trust in Jesus. What really matters is Jesus and how Jesus has met them in the darkness. And I just wonder, you know, if all our testimonies are all about how I have struggled through the darkness and found the light, rather than in the darkness Jesus has come, you know? And and we get we get hung up on the steps I took by which conversion happened, as opposed to just Jesus himself. You know? And it's it's kind of like we we we kind of we f front load, we front we emphasize being born again more than the one in whom we are born again, in, right? Yeah, okay. You know? Yeah. Like here are the steps I took in which to have a spiritual encounter. You know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I mean there's you know, there's still um just thinking back to that question of someone being converted in their forties, you know, I mean, uh when when you have people you know, let's imagine you did have a bunch of people just getting up and saying raise in a Christian home, raise in a Christian home, raising a Christian home. Which was last week. Yeah, yeah. It's good in a s it's also good to have that other side of um you know, because some people will say, Oh, well you people are just Christians because they were brought up like that. Right. And actually, actually th those stories of people in their forties just kind of flies in the face, doesn't it, of that. Um so you know, there is still value in it. But I think you're right, you know, still on the on the front that it's not about here was my program that got me there and you know, these were the steps.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Um it's like sometimes I imagine it like after Lazarus has risen from the dead, and they're you know, they've turned the wake into this homecoming party, and it's a very different funeral now, because you know, the guy they're celebrating is now alive and he's the toast of the town, and everyone's asking him his story, right? And like, but if he started telling his story as well, here's here's how you rise from the dead. Uh first of all, you make sure you're really, really open to the word of Christ, and you're like everyone would laugh at that. I was raised in a devout Jewish family. I was raised in a cold dark tomb as well. Um that's isn't that interesting. Yeah, that's that's my testimony. It's not that I was raised in a Christian home. I was raised from the dead. And that's and so his testimony is not really about how he discovered Jesus.
SPEAKER_04His testimony is just Do you think you know on the flip side that when if we if we have a focus on saying, Oh, and you know, here's the difference Jesus makes in my life, you know. Do you think there's an accusation possibly from people that people will just go, ah, well, when you talk about Jesus, it's obvious that he's just a crutch for you in these areas of your life. So you know, Jesus makes you know, when life's hard, it's nice to know somebody's there, or you know, you're just scared of your mortality, and you know, yeah, is that a possible accusation back?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I but but that that you know that possibility is there no matter what you know style of testimony you give, and and yeah, and at that point I just want to say, yeah, he's more than a crutch, he's a life support system, and you know like go back to Lazarus, you know. Jesus is just a crutch for you, Lazarus. He's like, Yeah, I might need a bit more than a crutch. Um it's interesting. Last week, so uh David Bennett gave his testimony, and um in the comments uh of this uh live cast on Facebook, um, there is a link to David Bennett's testimony. Now, David Bennett's testimony is very, very different. So he did not grow up in a believing home and he was massively into the gay scene in Sydney. He was like one of the organizers of gay pride in Sydney, and then was kind of met by the love of God in a pub, and someone just boldly shared Jesus with him and he had an encounter with God, and his story is like Um spectacular, you know. And you might think that, okay, um, so David's story is spectacular, and therefore every person raised in a Christian home like has like a a massively you know worse kind of Christian testimony. Not the case, because actually uh on a couple of the evenings, there were people who just got really real about um uh depression and anxiety, and and then one girl got really real about So people giving their testimonies. People giving their testimonies, sorry, yeah, in the evening, um, telling their Christian story, and even though they'd grown up in a Christian home, it was massively impactful because they were just real about where they were now, and Jesus can meet them in something that that is understandable by everybody, which is whatever, you know, depression or anxiety, perfectionism, or you know and and actually that's the point of connection, not really you know the steps to which you know you ascend.
SPEAKER_04And I that came out a little bit in Glasgow as well, one of the on the particularly on one of the I think it was the music cafe evening, there were two girls who played some music and then spoke a little bit about their own battles with mental health stuff. Um But I suppose it i it's it's where what is c what connects with the the listener.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_04And you know, I I think the large majority of people who are not Christians are probably not sitting thinking to themselves worried about their sin problem and their relationship with God.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_04But there are lots of things in their life which need help causing them issues or yeah, need help. Yes. And so actually speaking into that. Now that's not to say, so like we're not throwing the baby out of the bath water here, we're not saying therefore we're not talking about we don't need to talk about sin in a language of that. No, not at all, we're not saying that. But we just need to recognise the world we live in, I suppose, that we're speaking into. Yeah. And particularly, you know, even um i if you use the word sin anyway, yeah. What does that mean to translate it? Yeah. And if it does mean anything, they probably just think it's bad behaviour, which of course we'd probably want to push away from a little bit as well and go a bit deeper.
SPEAKER_06So Yeah. It's like Francis Spufford's kind of definition of sin, which I can't say at this time of the day, but it's the human potential to mess things up, shall we say. That's that's his definition of sin. And and when he talks about sin in his book Unapologetic, it's very much in the context of um um his human relationship with the woman that he loves, and how is it that he hurts the woman that he loves the most? And the more he tries to fix that problem, the deeper the wound goes, and then they stick their life in even deeper and they try to get you know, and so like he contextualizes sin very well, just in the context of just telling his own life story and telling talking about the problems. And it's just it's just about pulling that thread and saying, you know, if that's what's come out of you, just just you know, imagine what the source is down in the human heart. Yeah, yeah. Like this festering, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_06Um so that's my word. That's my word to you. Uh on the issue of testimonies, yeah, testimonies are wonderful, but it's it's not so much can you narrate a spiritual journey from darkness to light, it's how has Jesus met you in the darkness? So that it's not so much about how you get born again as the Jesus in whom you are born again. Anyway, there we go. Here endeth the lesson. Here endeth the lesson of point to Jesus. Point to Jesus. And if you're the praying type, uh keep on praying for follow-up to um those who came to Glasgow uh Unimission and to St. Andrew's Unimission. Uh Dozens and dozens of people doing follow-up. So let's let's pray that they encounter Christ. Great. So uh that's what's new at Speak Life. We also talk about what's news. Yeah. And um lots of tragic stuff in the news which we don't feel we can do justice to, really. Um so um we all know what we're talking about, but uh we thought we would talk about more popular culture items uh in the news, and something that I love listening to, and something you love listening to. Yeah. Radio two, there comes a point in every person's life when they I think I was about 15. When Radio One is just noise.
SPEAKER_04Well, occasionally on Radio Two you used to get a bit of um Led Zeppelin, so I was like this is clearly and Terry Rogan. As a 15-year-old boy, what more would you want?
SPEAKER_06You know, like So you've been you've you've loved Simon Mayo's confessions for a while.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well to be honest, I only since I started working here and driving home, yeah. It just happened to be at the right time to hear them. I d I don't think I've come across it before. Yeah. So um but yeah, that we there was one I just happened to mention this morning that I don't even know how we got into it, but I was saying I was driving home last night and I heard a confession. Yes. Um Explain to us what Simon Mayo's confessions are. So Simon Mayo's confessions, for those of you not familiar with it, or maybe you're not from the the UK and don't get radio uh radio two. Um basically kind of late afternoon drive time when your people are driving home. People have emailed in the radio show, and um they it's with their confessions, and basically um they they confess to something, could be f recent or in the dark past, you know. Um and then the team, there's three people kind of their um presenters, decide whether the person is deserving of forgiveness or not. Yes. Um note that language deserves deserving of forgiveness. Of forgiveness, absolutely. Um and so we we got I heard one yesterday and it made me kind of chuckle a bit. Um and um we're gonna play it for you in a second, and the kind of builder to it, I think uh I can't remember where we started on the clip, but the guy the guy's called Barry. Uh Barry, not his real name, I think. Not his real name. Um and he's uh confessing to uh something that he did on December the 17th.
SPEAKER_06December the 17th, last year.
SPEAKER_04So 2017, so it's very recent. Yes. Um and shall I roll this then? Yeah, let's roll it. See if we can make this work.
SPEAKER_01It would, yeah. Father Simon and the Restorers of Righteousness. That's pretty good, isn't it? My tale happened on December the 17th, just last year. Oh good. Uh even better. So this is pretty fresh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife and I were expecting our third child, and it was imminent. Wasn't entirely expected, this new baby. So I was working very hard trying to make as many shifts as possible, especially doing night work as I received double time, also got paid some sleep time. Fortunately, my manager understood my situation and was happy for me to work the extra hours. Needed the cash, do more work, that's the way it was. On the night in question, I was working on a site a couple of hours away from home and had started a job working on something which couldn't be abandoned, otherwise, some people in an unnamed town would be missing an important utility in the morning. That's as specific as Barry gets. I'm sure you understand that I was involved in vital work. Certainly my wife did, so all was well.
SPEAKER_04I'm with you.
SPEAKER_01Bobby's looking at the biggest. No, I'm with you.
SPEAKER_04I'm thinking which one.
SPEAKER_01It was at this moment, as my important work is taking all my attention, that the unborn baby decides to begin its arrival into the world. My wife rings, but knowing I couldn't get back any time soon, I said, I'll just finish the job and I'll rush back as quickly as I can. She was a little bit nervous, but was able to hold on. That's what she said. I sounded as reassuring as possible as I could hear she was anxious, but my words worked their magic. By the time I got back, she'd probably be ready to go into hospital, that's what I thought. I went back to my work. I tried to work as fast as I could. I got back home at 3 15 a.m., slightly later than planned. My wife was obviously mightily relieved, let me tell you. We then set off to hospital, and a couple of hours later, we had our little girl. Everything went to plan. But now I should tell you the terrible truth about the situation. I'd love to do a poll at this point as to what do you think Barry was doing? I wasn't really working that night. I was actually at a midnight showing of the latest Star Wars film.
SPEAKER_08No.
SPEAKER_01That's why I mentioned December the 17th. December the 17th will have had a few oh December the 17th. December 17th.
SPEAKER_06Inconsiderate.
SPEAKER_01I'm a bit of a super fan, you see. As you know, Father's time in this was the much anticipated Star Wars episode 8, The Last Jedi, the unmissable next installment with Ray and Luke and Leia and Kylo Ren. Something just can't wait. My wife rang around five minutes before I went into the cinema before I went into the cinema. I had my tickets and suitable cinema snacks in tow. I thought I'd have time to watch the film and get back. The cinema is only ten minutes away from my house. I would have told my wife the truth, but I feared that she would have told me to immediately return home. For fear that she could go into labour, and I really, really, really needed to watch this film. Needed. I thought it was actually unlikely that she'd go into labour that quickly. So now I need to ask forgiveness though. Not here's the here's the bit, here's the klicho. I'm not asking for forgiveness from my wife or my child, as all ended well. And I was there for the birth and I was being a supportive dad at the time. Nor do I ask forgiveness from my mum, who in my absence had to become emergency babysitter and support my wife as I was, in quotes, travelling home from work. I do ask for forgiveness from the cinema and the people sat around me for not obeying the correct cinema etiquette and turning my phone off. I must have ruined their enjoyment of the much anticipated film by constantly looking at my phone for regular updates from both my wife and my mum. And of course, I had to send one or two back every now and again just to update them as to how my work was progressing. I hope to get your forgiveness.
SPEAKER_06That's what he wants forgiveness for.
SPEAKER_04That's that's it. That's his deep dark secret. Tickle me, I was listening in the car and just thinking, you know, whatever. And then the confession. Yeah. I wasn't actually working work. What was he doing? Who was he with? No, exactly. That my mind was like. This is getting a bit dark. Yeah. And then of course.
SPEAKER_06I was with George Lucas.
SPEAKER_04No, George Lucas is not involved anymore, give me a whole lot. Isn't he not?
SPEAKER_06Okay, get with the programme. JJ JJ Everett.
SPEAKER_04Uh Rihan Johnson was the director of this one. Okay, good nice. Now we know. Um Nerdle it. Um wow. So that was his confession.
SPEAKER_06I didn't tell her because I feared she would ask me to come ask me to come home. He knows women, doesn't he? That man. He just had a spidey sense, tingling moment. I just wondered whether my pregnant woman in Labour might want me at her side. There was that fear. So of course I didn't tell her the truth.
SPEAKER_04Oh, and the fact that he not only I love you the way he threw in near the end that his mum also had gone to sit round there like up until like 3.15 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. She's fine.
SPEAKER_06So what I love about Simon Mo's confessions is they do tap into this need that we do feel that we need to confess our darkest crimes to someone. Yeah. You know. And not just bottle it up inside and not just even not just pray it, but actually articulate it to somebody else. Father's better out than your stores of the year. We want this this whole pretty good thing. And and it's that sense of looking bad in the presence of love. I think that's that's what we all have this craving for, looking bad in the presence of love. But unfortunately, I don't think confessions is quite that. Do you not? You know, I think it you know. It is interesting, it begins with, you know, Father Simon. And you know, people say the righteous I can't remember what they what they what he referred to them as. And the righteous judges or something like that. Something along those lines, wasn't it? Um But if you know the program at all, then you know that what then happens is they vote on whether the person deserves to be forgiven. Yeah. Which is just an interesting conception of forgiveness, don't you think?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know. Um and then they they have a conversation about whether they're mitigating circumstances and all that sort of stuff. And if they're mitigating circumstances, then they decide to forgive him. But of course, that's not forgiveness. Like if they're mitigating circum circumstances, you're not forgiven. Like because you didn't sin.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_06You're justified in some way in what you did. You are self-justified. You have justification in yourself. You don't need anyone else's justification. You don't need forgiveness. No. So it's exactly the other way around. Like they vote on basically whether they like the person and whether they think they're a mitigating circumstances. You know. And then they call that forgiveness because they've they've earned forgiveness. Actually it's the exact other way around. If it's inexcusable, then it must be forgiven. Right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06If it's only if it's inexcusable, you know.
SPEAKER_04I think I think the real thing at the root of all of this though, is was Barry in the right?
SPEAKER_06Barry You know. You know, it was you know, now once his baby's born, I mean he's not going to be able to get to the cinema. So it was his it was his last chance. That kid's gonna be around. You know. But wasn't it interesting that the the thing that he the thing that he wanted forgiveness for was actually breaking the rules of etiquette. So if you if you listen to uh Mayo and Kermode's film review, they've got the Ten Commandments, and uh like number one is you can't text or eat or don't rustle your bag or anything, you know. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's what I think they convicted him on, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Although didn't one of them let him off. I thought I can't remember.
SPEAKER_06But actually, breaking the rules of cinema, that is unforgivable. Um so that's that's one bit of popular culture, Simon Mayo's Confessions. Yeah. Um another bit of popular culture that sort of floated into my uh news streams. Um, Jordan Peterson, we just can't stop talking about him. Um but what was interesting is before I read Jordan Peterson's new book, which is Twelve Rules for Life, An Antidote to Chaos, uh, I'd actually read Russell Brand's self-help book called Recovery. Yeah. Now what's interesting about Russell Brand and Jordan Peterson is that they are both um very popular on YouTube. One as a comedian, one as a psychologist. And I think isn't it isn't it interesting that actually they've ended up in the role of preacher.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06I think, you know, today's society they don't listen to actual preachers, but they do listen to stand up comedians and psychologists, and that's that's where we get preaching from. And actually people just lap this stuff up. You know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And and is it me or uh they see this this kind of we all of a sudden we we seem to have not talked about issues like this when I say we society for a long, long time, and yet all of a sudden these people very much in the forefront. Right. You know, Jordan Peterson's right there, and obviously we've talked about him before. Russell Brand suddenly, you know, kind of coming into view, yeah. Um uh talking in this way rather than just doing comedy stuff. Stand up, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um he's been doing his truth thing for a while, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But it suddenly seems to be as if it's much more in the in the public eye at the forefront of things, yeah. That society is talking about these things a bit more than we were before.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, there's a hunger, there's there's a hunger that's not being fed anywhere else.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and you know, maybe maybe it is the case that as we see various parts of society that we've held high for so long crumbling a little bit. You know, so so all the stuff we talked about with the sexual revolution and obviously all the scandals with that at the moment, and there is all of course there's lots of other things going on in the news as well at the moment. Um people are going people are kind of maybe reevaluating and just going, Yeah, where do we stand on these things? Are there different voices to be heard?
SPEAKER_06And actually, you know, go to the States and Jimmy Kimmel, you know, standing up and he's he's making all sorts of points about health care and gun control and that sort of thing. And and you know, and Jim Jeffries, uh an Australian stand-up, you know, his little thing on on gun control is like the sermon on gun control. And it's the thing that people kind of listen to and it's it's it's powerful, you know. Um so isn't it yeah, it's it's interesting. Maybe it's just that you know the church has not been preaching, there's a vacuum and you know, stand-up and psychology is sort of rushing into the into the vacuum. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um worrying, isn't it, that well the church has had nothing to say, basically. Right. And I mean I I I don't know what I can't speak for the the church all around the world, but definitely in this country it feels like the church's thing has not been to be a kind of prophetic voice to our nation, but rather to be like, how can we just cosy up with the nation so that they don't all turn on us and Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And and one of the phrases that Russell Brand used about Jordan Peterson in uh in his interview uh that came out this week was that Jordan Peterson's part of the intellectual dark web.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_06Um people like Dave Rubin and and Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and a whole bunch of people who have like millions of David Crowder, but the Steven Crowder.
SPEAKER_04Stephen Crowder's in the word leader, isn't he?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Steven Crowder, people like that who got literally millions of views, and actually most of their videos are like three hour long lectures and rants and Which is incredible, particularly because you know, obviously we've started doing the YouTube thing and some of our discussions were when we were starting out about making videos. Yeah. If it's any more if someone shares a video with me and it's any more than about four minutes, I'm just like, oh, I can't be bothered about the time. But people will sit and watch three hours of somebody talking about I mean I've sat through a couple of Jordan Peterson's bits. Right. You know, I'm not saying I understand half of what he says, but you know, but you know, uh it makes me feel like a big boy. Um you sit there and you think it is suddenly two hours has gone by and there's interesting QA and you kind of go, Oh, there's a lot of ideas in the substance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's food for thought, even if you don't sit there and go, Yeah, this guy is absolutely on the money.
SPEAKER_06Um what's interesting about both Brand and Peterson is that they quote scripture quite a bit. And Russell Brand talks about getting in touch with um Jesus and a Christ consciousness and stuff like that because of his experience with um first uh drug addiction and then sex addiction, and so the twelve steps have been massive in his recovery. That's the name of his self-help book from last year, recovery, and actually, you know, the higher power that the twelve steps are all about. Um, you know, he he is happy to to you know, he's he'll he'll go to Krishna, he'll go to Buddha, but he'll go to Christ and he'll you know quote from the scriptures. So Russell Brand is there quoting from the scriptures, talking about a higher power, saying that we need something transcendent beyond you know the material. Jordan Peterson, from the psychological point of view, he's a sort of a Jungian and a Gnostic and a um Darwinian more than anything else. But again, he's saying we need something more than material explanations, and and he's quoting scripture. In every chapter of his book, um Twelve the The The Twelve Rules for Life, um, he's quoting Scripture. And actually, in his book, when he does quote scripture, it's like, oh wow, that's uh that that is meaty, that is, you know, that has wisdom to it. Um so here we've got we've got Russell Brand speaking very positively about Christ and and Christianity in a very broad sense. Jordan Peterson speaking about um the scriptures, doing whole, you know, long lectures on the scriptures. They've both written these self-help books. And what's interesting about both of them is that they're kind of they've got a very low anthropology. They've got very low expectations for what people are like, right? Yeah. So Jordan Peterson kind of goes straight to Solzhenitsyn and just says, yeah, when you're in the gulag, realize that it's probably your fault. You know, and and you know, you think that if you were living in Nazi Germany, you would have still stood up to the Nazis. No, probably not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06No, probably that same darkness that's in your heart, you know. Yeah. You you you would have been a camp guard. You would have been. You know. It's like, all right, a really, a really low anthropology. And then Russell Brand talking about like where I just we are universally addicted and this is our problem, and it's not just the crack addicts, it's everybody. So they've both got this this very low anthropology, uh, which is interesting for a self-help book. Because like a self-help book is like you can do it, come on, you know. So there's all sorts of similarities, I think, between Russell Brand and Jordan Peterson, but I've I've clipped out um a kind of a uh an edited highlights of of about four minutes from this clip, and just see if you can pick up on any differences between Brand and Peterson, and let's discuss what those differences might be.
SPEAKER_00We are thrown to challenges, and that they're that and that in some sense those are best construed as tests of our ethical ability. When you're trying to lead people forward out of the darkness, let's say, you get them to stop avoiding confronting the terrible things that are in front of them. You say, turn around and look at them even more than you've been looking at them. Which is very paradoxical advice, but of all the things that have been proven to aid people's recovery and movement towards mental health, that's like at the top of the list. Voluntary confrontation with what you are afraid of. There's letters on Christ's cross, I and R I, Jesus Christ King of the Jews. It means Jesus Christ King of the Jews, and it was put there by the Romans, but there's an occult interpretation in Latin, which I can't re reproduce. But it means through fire all things are renewed. And one of the one of the deepest ideas of Christianity is that you should burn everything off that's part of you that isn't part of that thing that can die and be reborn. Like there's all sorts of baggage that you people say that there's baggage that you're carrying, everyone knows that. It's dead wood. It's like that has to burn off. And that's a lot of that's way more of you than you think. Way more than you think.
SPEAKER_05Whilst you still haven't said whether or not you are you believe in God, and I won't keep going on about it because I'm not one of them type of people. Like it seems to me, yeah. So like um, like it seems to me that you uh revere truth, and it seems to me that you are interested in the truth in scripture and mythology. When, like, you know, it's interesting to me that you've written sort of an accessible sort of self-help type book that's you know, clean your room, stand up straight, stick your shoulders back, stuff that, you know, like I would not query. The only thing that I feel like I would like to ask you about, because my I don't know if I even have a constituency, but the people I find, you know, I find myself talking a lot to Muslim people, uh young women, self-harming eating disorders, these kind of you know, and you're a clinical psychologist, so I imagine you have more in more access to that kind of information and those kind of experiences than I do. I have this strong feeling that I'm supposed to make myself available for the vulnerable, for the powerless, and for the voiceless.
SPEAKER_00So That's a fine idea. This is the one how do you do it?
SPEAKER_05How do we do it? It's hard to do it. Huge bloody question. Sometimes they don't want me interfering in their lives. There is that the majority of the time. Right.
SPEAKER_00There certainly is that. Well, there's an there's a maxim that's often applied by people who work in old age homes, which is never do anything for the residents that they can do themselves.
SPEAKER_05I know you said all this thing about sort of good the the one of the uh is it one of the essential themes, ideas about the Christ myth being, you know, sort of burn away all that cannot be reborn. But bloody hell, mate, in the actual language, all he bangs on about is kindness, kindness, love, love, kindness, kindness, love, love.
SPEAKER_00Not in revelation. Not in revelation. He's a judge in revelation.
SPEAKER_05What and you still you're still taking that as what books beyond the gospels, you're still taking as the word of Christ.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean taking them as part of the entire corpus of the story. I mean, the reason that Jung thought revelation was appended to the Bible is because the Christ in the Gospels was introduced too much, in a sense, on the side of mercy and not enough on the side of judgment. Because here's there's a technical, there's a technical reasoning. It's like we don't want a judgment, oh Jesus. Well, you don't have a choice. Because if you have an ideal, it's a judge. Like you have an ideal, and there might be an ideal that you have of you. It's simultaneously your judge because you fall short of it. There's a thousand, there's a hundred thousand ways to do things wrong, and only one way to do them right. Is that the the the there's an infinite number of snares that you can tangle yourself up in. And to find that pathway where everything is balanced, that's very that requires continual discernment and attention. And so you you can't have an ideal without it being a judge, and you can't you can't live properly without discernment. But that doesn't mean compassion, and compassion isn't relevant. It doesn't mean that at all.
SPEAKER_06So I think I think there it might become a little bit more clear. Kind of the difference between Brand and Peterson. I think Brand has been met in a very dark place, in a place of addiction, uh, a place where he has needed a higher power, who doesn't just stand over him and say, Stand up straight with your shoulders back. Which is fascinating. Chapter one of um Peterson's book is rule number one for life, stand up straight with your shoulders back. Okay, step one in the 12-step process, which is chapter one of Russell Brand's um book, is uh I haven't got it in front of me, but it but it is, you know, we came to see that we were powerless to uh control our own lives and needed a higher power over us, right? So it couldn't be more different, really. Um stand up straight with your shoulders back, or realize you are utterly powerless in this moment. Yeah. Which is an extraordinary thing for the twelve steps. I mean the twelve steps are profoundly Christian and they've come out of a Christian um setting and they have helped people all over the world with addiction, but they start not with stand up straight with your shoulders back.
SPEAKER_04It's not sort yourself out.
SPEAKER_06It's really not.
SPEAKER_04An omission of powerlessness.
SPEAKER_06Right. Because if you if you've become addicted to something and it's absolutely ruined your life, then being told you're the solution is like you know. Yeah. You know, and that that's part of the problem in addiction, is you always you know, you go to your you go to your problem as though it's the solution, you know. You think you can fix it by you know. So what I find about um Brand's book is that it's it's just a a lot more realistic about our humanity and the messed upness of it. While while Peterson really does kind of put the knife in about um the darkness and the shadow side of you and me, I I actually find that it's it's brand that has a sense of there's a rescuer. Mm-hmm. Um and I just w I just wonder with Jordan Peterson, and yes, he does have so many um, you know, young men, 20,000 young men, writing to him saying, you know, you've changed my life. And I j I just wonder though, like ten years on, like when people have tried to climb and tried to do it themselves, are they gonna hear that there's a rescuer for when they fail? You know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I'm just trying to think in my I just evaluate for myself, like, as I think about those two, like which seems the more appealing. Right. You know, to me as I think about those two positions. And and I you know, I think like yeah just at a kind of very gut level, what seems appealing is is the Peterson stuff. Right. It is the sort yourself out, you know, pick yourself up and make something of yourself and you know, stand up straight, shoulders back, do something. Clean up your room. Clean up your room, you know, uh get on with it and do something. And and I think there's an element of uh of you know, there's obviously there's loads of things in society you know lots of issues to do with uh genders and bits like that. Um but there is a sense, I think, in which it's not very popular to say, is it, but there are there are issues for for men. Um that men are Just struggling in in various ways. Right. Because they don't really know what to do. Right. And so there's something about Peterson's thing that basically just says, look, what's this thing, isn't it? He what's his word he uses bucko, isn't it? You know, he's like on bucko, you like you know, he's just like get up, sort yourself out. And there's an element, it's basically a l it's basically twelve big man-ups, isn't it? Be more lobster. Yeah. Yeah, be more like a lobster. Um and there's something very appealing about I think men can get behind that. That's probably why they like it. There's something about taking control and getting back in the seat and doing something with your life. Yeah. You know, it's a bit like when you've if you've got nothing to drive you, you just you just don't do anything, do you? You kind of you need things. Yeah. And there's that element of saying, right, come on, get back in control, do something. Yeah. Um But like you say, what do you what happens then when you hit a point where you realise maybe you can get maybe you maybe it'll change your life a bit, initially. Yeah. But you're gonna hit a point where it doesn't always work or it falls down and you're still looking for that other thing.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So Peterson's got this one chapter on do do what is meaningful, not what is expedient. And that's absolutely um it's absolutely right. In that, you know, the law is wholly righteous and good. You know, like that's what Romans calls the law. Um and I think, yeah, Jordan Peterson is Mr. Law, and he is right, it's wholly righteous and good, and we should do what is right and not what is expedient. Um and he kind of he finishes that chapter, and I I was listening to it on on on Audible, and he's in tears. Like his voice is cracking up, he is he's breaking down in tears because he really believes this stuff, and there's that passion, and and that's that's like so beautiful about about Jordan Peterson. But I I just think how do you get to that stage? And I think you need to, you know, step one of the 12 steps. We admitted that we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable. And there's the I think there's got to be a beginning there that's you know, I mean Peterson kind of says, Look, uh compassion is great if you're a six-month-old, right? And all you need is compassion. But I just wonder if spiritually that is what we are, right? You know, spiritually, we're not self-sufficient, and spiritually, I need the love of a parent who's just going to, you know, give of themselves to me, and I can't stand up straight with my shoulders back yet.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_06Give me give me some grace, give me some compassion. Um just I mean, I mean, both of them need Christ. You know, like both Peterson and Russell Brand need Christ. Um and actually um uh a guy who we've had on the podcast before, um, Ben Virgo, has actually prayed with Russell Brand.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean you saying on um type tour, wasn't he?
SPEAKER_06He took him around a church in in London, St. Bodolf's Aldersgate, and Russell Brand at the end of the whole thing said, Right, so is this when we pray? I was like, Yeah. Alright, let's pray.
SPEAKER_04There you go, maybe he's not not that far from the kingdom.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I never know. You know, I I think people who get in touch with their addictions and who say we're powerless over these things, our lives have become unmanageable, we we've come to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. You know, those are the first two points, first two steps. Like, you know, ne there you're dealing with people with with reality, and obviously we need to name the higher power properly. But uh yeah, very interesting I've found anyway. So that's uh we'll both keep our eyes peeled. Looking at Russell Brand, a comedian who's a preacher. Uh Jordan Peterson, a psychologist who is a preacher. We've got loads to learn from them, actually, as preachers. But uh praise God, we've got the gospel that that actually preaches.
SPEAKER_04And uh just one thing in the back of my head as we talk about these kind of things, I just have a suspicion there'll be a few people who who maybe watch us talking about these things and kind of will be feeling a little bit like um stop being so bothered about uh you know these very worldly things. Yeah. And I think just just if you're a Christian and you're looking at Jordan Peterson or Russell Brand or any of those kind of people who are being quite vocal in these areas at the moment and and feeling like maybe we're being a bit too influenced by that. I think my response is just to say actually this is where the world is at. I think it because where there are millions of people tuning in to hear these people and watch these things. Their their views, you know, ri obviously they're not, you know, completely Christian views, but there are like fragments of grace in there and pictures of fallenness as well. Right. And people are talking about this. Right. You know, people at the water cooler at work.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um and I suppose that's kind of why that's why it interests me. I mean, I find it fascinating anyway, but it interests me that that's it's now in the public sphere, very much so. People who you wouldn't have expected to be engaging with these kind of people and ideas and now engaging with it. Right. And I think that's important for us, therefore, as Christians, to be engaging with these things. Because the reality is, you know, we think about how do I be a witness. Nine times out of ten, people do not turn around to you at work and just say, I've really never understood how the cross works. Yes. Please give me your lowdown. Those conversations don't tend to happen, but people do say, Oh, have you seen that video that's going round? Yeah. Have you seen that guy? Have you heard what thing you said? Yeah. Yeah. And it is those water cooler moments. Yeah. And so I actually think it's important for us to engage with culture. Yeah. You know, um to withdraw from it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, exactly. And we're not engaging with any other self-help books, because I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't spend the time on any other self- your best life now, which you know purports to be Christian, right? Um it's precisely because they've got such a realistic anthropology in which there is a shadow side that will, you know, addict you and send you straight to hell. I mean, Peterson mentions hell more than most preachers.
SPEAKER_04And isn't it fascinating? I mean, just a very simple way in off the back of stuff, isn't it? Is if people are watching this and saying, Oh, you know, I'm watching these guys, and I'm kind of going, Yeah, that's true. I would just feel very say, Well, well, yeah, but the Bible's been saying that for two thousand years, yeah. You know, old scriptures, old testament scriptures as well. Yeah. You know, there if as a Christian, yeah, there's a lot of stuff about their anthropology where you just go, well.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Their diagnosis of the problem is spot on. Yeah, yeah. And but do they have a solution? Well, here's here's a solution, you know? Yeah. And here's Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly. So I think it's exciting actually, after what has felt in the public sphere, a very kind of barren area to you know, uh religion and all kinds of things like that was off limits. Yeah. And now for it to be talked about in such a it's so bold.
SPEAKER_06I mean, like there was a Peterson video I came across yesterday, which is just like him saying, Well, how on earth have we got to this stage where we've got hookup culture? Why why are people like going to bed with each other after one date? That's ridiculous. That is wrong. You know, and pornography is wrong. And you know, why are people doing with one another sexually things that they would not narrate or name or articulate using words, but they're doing it to one another physically. That's wrong.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_04And it's like, okay, well, it's been a long time since anyone's been allowed to say anything's wrong. It's been like it's quite controversial these days.
SPEAKER_06You know, but we feel like you need permission for it, and maybe like he's the kick up the backside to say, no, you don't need permission, just say it. Say it and see where the ships fall, you know. Um, I mean th but that's that's not the centre of our message. The centre of our message is Jesus. But still, there's there's plenty of things we feel we're not allowed to say. And the intellectual dark web, whoever those guys are, um they they're saying it. You know, they're saying it, and getting a following and and yeah, it's a kick up the backside for Christians. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So uh that's what's news. Um let's think about our thorny question. Our thorny question um uh that was released last night.
SPEAKER_02Last night, yeah, fresh. Fresh. Fresh of the press.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Uh and uh it was answering the question, can we trust God? And uh if you're an eagle-eyed viewer, you can spot the deliberate mistake that Paul made in his typography. Let's see if you can spot the mistake. On YouTube, Hannah has asked the question, how do we know we can really trust God? Last week we addressed the question, is God real? But now we ask the question, okay, maybe God exists, but can I entrust myself to him? Like in the famous trust exercise. Can we fall into the embrace of a God who will catch us? Well, that depends. What kind of God are we talking about?
SPEAKER_04There are all sorts of higher powers you could think rule the world. Maybe you think laws of nature are the highest authority. They ultimately call the shots in the universe. Or you think biological necessity is the highest power. Our need to survive and reproduce is the ultimate imperative. Or you think there's a god. But alright, which god? Maybe he's a Thor figure, distant, powerful, but uninvolved. At best he's ready to hurl a thunderbolt. Can you trust any of these gods? It all depends on which god we're talking about.
SPEAKER_06Imagine you were convinced by last week that there is a god over and above this world. You might think, well, direct me to the manager because I wish to make a complaint.
SPEAKER_05I asked for a room with a view. Who may I ask what you were expecting to see out of a talky hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House, perhaps? The hanging gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically.
SPEAKER_06When you look at the state of this world, and when you discover there is a manager in charge, why wouldn't you complain?
SPEAKER_04So Did you spot the did you spot the error? Uh I spotted the error. I certainly spotted the error. You know, the the most frustrating thing is not the error. Yeah, yeah. You wanted to spell the biological neta. The annoying thing is, the most annoying thing about that spelling mistake, Trish has said, oh, Paul. Right, I'm not taking the fall for this, right? That that was draft number three of that video. And we all saw it. We all watched it, we all commented on it. But I tell you what though, we must I must have watched that thing fifty times and didn't notice that. But the first time I watched that after it had been published, it was ten minutes after it had gone live, and I looked at it and just went straight away, oh no.
SPEAKER_06Paul's literally been kicking himself ever since that moment. Every now and again in the corner, he's just gone.
SPEAKER_04I I genuinely because bad spelling is like a real bugbear of mine. Really? Like I you know, oh and I feel I feel genuinely dirty and ashamed of myself.
SPEAKER_06Like, what have I become? And you're wearing the same hoodie as was on there. So there's two two causes for shame there.
SPEAKER_04I admit I've got a problem and I need help.
SPEAKER_07You need help, you're powerless.
SPEAKER_06Over spelling, and you require Jesus to help you. So uh so can we trust God? Um please do feel free to check that out. We've uh put a link in the comments on this Facebook Live. Uh and uh if you're listening on the podcast, you will have a link in the show notes. But uh what's what's what's basically our approach there, Paul, to uh can we believe? Can we trust God?
SPEAKER_04Um still reeling from my spelling mistake.
SPEAKER_06Pa Paul was mid uh mid-cameraman operations.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um can we trust gods? Um I'd be honest, you've blanked me now.
SPEAKER_06Which god me on this book, which gods god, that's the thing, man. That's uh that's the answer to all my questions.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean what we come down to in the end, don't we, is like you say, it's that witch god thing.
SPEAKER_06And it's W I T C H God. But I mean that's probably how you would spell it, Paul. But uh W-H-I-C-H.
SPEAKER_04Which god Um So we so we come down then to be talking about the the Jesus God, that's the thing, isn't it? So the question is when people say a bit like when they say, Oh, I don't believe in God, and people say, Well, hang on, which god don't you believe in? And then they describe a god and you go, Oh, I don't believe in that god either. Um, you wouldn't be able to trust that god. Right. So we say, you know, when you say, Can you trust God? What is your picture of God and what you think God is like?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um and we've got the clip, haven't we, from um Christopher Hitchens, um, where he describes what his image of God uh is like and basically says, Why would you want a God like this? You know, it would be like a celestial North Korea, that's his phrase, isn't it? Uh which is a lovely kind of sound bite. Um and he says, No one but a slave would want that, would desire that. Um but actually we uh we then just examine the thing uh the the examining what is God actually like? Um and yeah, we come back to Jesus and the Jesus God is the phrase you picked up from the Iranian lady. Yeah, yeah. And say, Is Jesus the God who we can trust? Can we fall in the question is can we can we fall into his arms? Right.
SPEAKER_06And we get his there's only one God who's actually got arms wide open. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like yeah. Exactly, and he's the one who falls for us.
SPEAKER_06Right, and no one catches him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think like one of the things to do with that question is to figure out that we're all already kind of um embracing something, we're all already trusting in something, all all already relying that something is there. Whether it's biological necessity or necessity, as it should be spelled. Oh man.
SPEAKER_04I'll spell some words for you in a minute. What's that mean?
SPEAKER_06That's a meaningless dad threat if ever I've heard one. Um It's like, yeah, we're all already, we all already have a view of ultimate reality that we think um, you know, is is what makes the world you know tick. Um is it is it physical causes, is it biological causes, or is it God, which God, and then and then actually with all those options as to like what it is we're actually standing on, resting in, none of those options have actually shown up to be trustworthy. None of those have shown up with arms wide open to embrace us. You know, Thor hasn't, and you know, natural selection hasn't, and you know, the cosmological constant hasn't. Um actually, the only the only ultimate reality you can trust is Jesus. Um So next week we're gonna think about this question what do I do with that m with my doubts? And next week we're gonna have a look in in Thorny Questions about how everyone's actually when you even when you doubt something, it's because you believe something else. So we've all we've all got faith claims, we've all got trust statements, we're all resting on something, even as we we think we're being so very skeptical. Yeah. Um and then the but the good news is we've actually got a trustworthy God who is underneath us as we look at the world, because no other God has entered into this world, taken responsibility for this world, died for this world, have their arms wide open for this world, bled for this world, and risen up again for this world to offer us a future with him forever. Like there just is no other object of trust that's out there. So it's not just you know, can you trust God? Actually, you can't trust anything else.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know. And we we talked, don't we, about the the promises, the promises of God, um which again is very different to Right. I mean, you there are no promises in it's not a personal thing with your biological necessity. Yeah, necessity, yeah. You can say it. Man uh or the laws of nature. Um but but we talk about you know I think the image of uh of the father and the child and you know what do we say to our children, I promise. Right. We will do this, I promise. Right. And actually we can rely on those promises.
SPEAKER_06Um that's what church is about, and the Bible and Lord's Supper, and it's all it's all to to tell us again and again that God's arms are open to us. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, you know what, it's two o'clock. Back to work, people. Back to work. You've um you've uh slobbed around, you've had your lunch. Yep.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna go work on my spelling. We'll test you next week. If you noticed, if you picked up on the spelling mistake without us saying, you will receive the Speak Life checkbook and pen. That is the prize carriage carriage clock, uh, perhaps. Uh or the speed boat. Like is that's the winner's prize, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Awesome. Well, next week, as I say, we're gonna be discussing the video. Uh, what do we do with our doubts? And we'll be discussing what's new and what's news.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06But uh yeah, do subscribe to us on Facebook if you're not already subscribed. Uh do hit uh a like there. Share the video, it should be uh available to share very, very shortly. Um it'll go up on YouTube, so uh hopefully you'll subscribe to us there. Uh Speak Life UK. And uh maybe you're getting this via the podcast. If not, uh you can get this on the podcast and uh where all good podcasts can be gotten. Um yeah. So I think that's us. I think that is us.
SPEAKER_04Are we done? Thanks for joining us, and uh, we will see you again next week. Javanell. Thanks very much. Bye.