The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_02Hello, welcome to the live cast from Speak Life. We hope you can hear us. We hope we're not just talking to ourselves down here in the uh the bowels of the Revival Prayer Center. Oh, that's fantastic. I think we are. So I need to I need to mute myself. And it looks like we're going live. Hello, if you're joining us. Um looks like nobody is yet.
SPEAKER_00But we lost all our viewers already in our first minutes.
SPEAKER_02Yes, sorry. Uh last week we mentioned that we had a steam-powered uh laptop, so we went out and we got a new laptop which um may need to be replaced next week.
SPEAKER_00Joys of technology.
SPEAKER_02Uh but we're calling this the live cast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we had to think through all the names, didn't we? And we figured, you know, what with the podcast?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00We could go for live for this one, because it's live. It says something about what's happening, you know. Um we are casting things out there.
SPEAKER_02Now, did you know that broadcast, I mean it kind of has a very biblical origin in that the parable of the sower. Yeah, this was news to me. He was casting the seed broadly, and this is this is what all broadcasting is doing. It's meant to be sowing the seed, sowing the seed of Jesus out there in the world. So um that's what we are doing. We are doing, we are broadcasting uh the life of Christ, uh, hopefully, and uh our our big idea is we're gonna talk about what's new with uh Speak Life, what's news out there in the world, and we will discuss our um video, our Thorny Question that we release on the Monday night. Um so, Paul, what is new uh at Speak Life?
SPEAKER_00What's new? Well, uh so uh well we've just had our next video in our series come out yesterday. So uh if you've been following our Thorny Question series, I think we started it back before Christmas um and we ran a few then. We ran one last week on hypocrisy. Hopefully you've seen that and enjoyed it. If you've not seen it, you can find it on our Facebook page or you can find it on YouTube. Um but then yesterday we had our latest video out, Post Truth, where we were thinking a bit about that, and you can find that on the Facebook page if you've not seen it. Um we think it's gonna be on YouTube, but it will be on YouTube if it's not at the moment. Um so we're gonna we're gonna get that up there.
SPEAKER_02You know what I'm gonna do right now, live, I am going to post yesterday's video as a comment. Boom, there it is. Wow. Wow. Okay.
SPEAKER_00This is a can we live post-truth? It's like breaking news as it's happening, isn't it? You know.
SPEAKER_02It's news to me. I'm uh a complete Luddite when it comes to this.
SPEAKER_00So post-truth, we're gonna be talking a bit about that later, um, as part of this, uh as part of our live cast. And then Glenn, do you want to talk a bit about your book that you've got coming up?
SPEAKER_02Okay, yes, a bit of shameless self-promotion. Do I do I want to do that? Yes, I do. Um, so I've got an Easter book coming out called Divine Comedy. Uh, what is life? Is it a divine comedy? Is it a human tragedy? And it's uh it was sparked off by the fact that Easter is happening um on uh April Fool's Day this year. So 1st of April, April Fool's Day, and that actually taps into a long history of holy laughter. That actually Easter was a time when people would tell jokes. And um it used to be limited to that one Easter Sunday sermon. Um now vicars get up there and tell terrible gags all year round. Sorry about it. But it used to be it used to be this this thing where all you'd get kids to come up and they'll tell jokes on Easter Sunday because this was the day when the devil fell for it. What a fool. Ha ha. He thought that this was going to be Jesus' death and it turned out to be Jesus' victory. Wow. Yaboo sucks poo to you. And so that that was that was the holy laughter thing. And uh and the big idea with the book is sort of saying that yeah, Easter is the ultimate comedy, because comedy is not really about um whether there's laughs or not, whether there's there's gags. Comedy really is about. It's not about being funny. Yeah. Sad comms. Not sitcoms, but sad comms. Yeah. Um yeah, dramedy. Dramedy. Yeah, it's like dra drama, tragedy, comedy all fused together. Nice.
SPEAKER_00Rom Zomcom. Rom Zomcom. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and s and if you're a sort of a comedy purist, you you sort of think, well, they're kind of washing their hands of the the impetus to actually make people laugh at that stage, because they they're just saying, oh, that wasn't meant to be funny. That was that was the tragedy side of things. That was the drama side of things. Right. Um anyway, comedy is meant to be, you know, classically, comedy is shaped like a smile. That's how you can remember it. Um you go down into the pit and you rise up on on a high. And so, even though it's a story that begins in pain, it ends in joy, and that that is your great comedy. Tragedy is the exact opposite, shaped like a frown, you go up into joy, uh, but you tumble down into the pit. And so, really, like when you go to Shakespeare and you ask, you know, uh, which are the comedies? Um Well, it's it's tricky in that, like you open up, you know, Hamlet, and there are jokes in Hamlet, apparently. Um my English teacher pointed them out, you know, assiduously, and I sat down and and you know, wrote down in my notebook, you know, apparently Hamlet is telling a joke here. Who knew? No. But just because he's telling a joke doesn't mean he's in a comedy, because a comedy is about the ending. Sure. And at the end of Hamlet, the death count is astronomical. Um whereas for all fourteen of Shakespeare's plays that are comedies, it ends with Happy End. Happy Ending, which is a specific happy ending. Oh, is it a wedding? A wedding. And sometimes there are four weddings. Um a funeral? Uh no. See, a funeral's a tragedy. Uh yeah. So that would be dramedy, wouldn't it? Richard Curvis was doing dramatically.
SPEAKER_00And an airport chase.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00That's how the Bible ends, is it? Chase to the Airpress.
SPEAKER_02And only one man stood in their way. Um, so what is life? Is life a tragedy or a comedy? Like you'd think it's a tragedy because it does end with a funeral, right? Like none of our lives end with weddings, uh, our lives end with funerals.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So isn't life a tragedy? Actually, the your one shot at a comedy is the story of Easter, where Jesus plunges down into the pit, rises up again, he takes your tragedy, gives you his comedy, and that's the idea for uh Divine Comedy. And uh yeah, it's going to press now, and uh when when's the book gonna be out? Well, on the website it says uh like the first of March, but um it might be out sooner than that.
SPEAKER_00I'm getting dragged across the room. Where and where where can we get the book?
SPEAKER_02Ten of those. Um yeah, so go to tenofos.com and uh search for Divine Comedy, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Sure it is.
SPEAKER_02Search for Scrivener. Although the danger with that is you might end up buying one of my wife's books, which you know. That's actually a good book. Um technically well written, and who wants that? So that's that's what's new with us.
SPEAKER_00That's the new stuff. Yeah. And then what's news? So I think think a little bit about what's going on in the news. Something we're hopefully we're doing this week by week. Um if there's stuff going on. Yes. Um and it appears there is stuff going on. Apparently.
SPEAKER_01Um the least racist person you've ever interviewed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so if you've not picked up on it uh already, um we've got this big thing at the moment going on in the news. I say we, it's across the globe, isn't it? It's not ours, no, no. Um so Trump has made these comments uh about certain countries um and referred to them in a certain way. We we've written them call them hellhole. We've written hellhole countries. That's not the phrase he used. Yes. Um I'm sure you can find out yourself if you really need to know. And it's caused a lot of uproar, basically, hasn't it? And the big accusation leveled at him has been that because he said these things, it's because he's a racist. Right.
SPEAKER_02And and and the countries at issue were because I mean because the countries at issue were like Haiti and some African countries, you know, and he called them hellhole countries. And therefore, what's interesting is that like the first thing that I thought when I heard him make those comments is like how rude, how crude, how ign ignorant, how very unstatesmanlike. Like this is this is nuts. This is not how if you were interviewing for the job of president, you know, this isn't this is not the language you would use.
SPEAKER_00Or or m really any job. Really. It's true. You know, um even if you were you know, regardless of the interviewing, if you're in the role. If you're in that role, generally clear your desk. Yeah, we were saying you wouldn't say those things. No. Or and not expect uh face some discipline.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of some kinds. And and yet what's been fascinating to me is that there's a real push to identify these completely unacceptable comments, and they are completely unacceptable, but there's a real push to label them as racist. And I just I just find that interesting that the whether we're gonna get upset about this or not depends on whether we think there is a racist in the heart of Donald Trump or not. And I'm just not I'm not sure A, whether we can establish that, and B whether that's the criteria we should be using.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it'd be interesting. I don't know if anyone is actually watching, but uh let's have a look. If anyone is actually watching, it'd be interesting to know maybe in the comments whether you think that what he said is imp uh implicit is that the word I'm looking for? Implicit racist. Implicitly racist. So the fact is that is it is it implicitly racist? So my my as we've talked about this here, we were saying what he said could be racist, but he could equally have said those things and then and then not be racist things. They'd be rude things, outrageous things, unacceptable things to say, yes, but not at their heart necessarily racist.
SPEAKER_02I could call for let me pluck uh a UK town at random. Here we are in in Eastbourne, so I could call Hastings a hellhole. Like I could. Well man, we And you would understand what I meant if you call me into Hastings. But like it's it's still another you've still got to establish that that's motivated by who knows what that's motivated by? Like, I've been there, that's what it's motivated by. We love you in hasty. Love you. But you know, but I like you could you could call any number of places a hellhole for any number of reasons that go beyond the issue of race.
SPEAKER_00And people seem to leap on it, didn't they, and and say this is wrong because it is racist.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um But we were saying here, you know, imagine if we could, you know, if we could establish some kind of test where we could know definitively whether he intended it out of racism or not. Right. You know, let's let's say we could do the test and it came back that it wasn't out of racism. Right. It's it's still it would still be wrong, right? Like surely. I mean we wouldn't go, oh that's all right then, those comments are fine.
SPEAKER_02So And the fact that you'd need to design a test which actually looks at the thoughts and intentions of the heart, like you actually have to build windows into people's souls to then prosecute a crime. I mean that's that's what for me is so dangerous about hate crime stuff. Like are there crimes that are motivated by racism, homophobia, and the and the rest of it? Yes, there are, but can you establish in a court of law that that is what was motivating the person? And and to do that, you've got to have some kind of like 1960s sci-fi, you know, I don't know, motivometer that goes on someone's head and somehow pieces together the the intensity.
SPEAKER_00And I was I was watching a clip yesterday of a news anchor talking to a uh a lady about these issues on campuses in America, you know, who should be allowed to come and speak, and and he was kind of saying, you know, uh the view that was coming from the campuses was that certain people shouldn't be allowed to come and speak. And he was saying, you know, that's kind of a censorship thing. How do you decide, you know, when it moves from debate, because they were saying, you know, we want debate, but when does it move from debate into hate speech?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And uh uh basically as as he tried to push this lady, she was saying, Well, you know, um I think all reasonable people know, you know, what is you know uh uh uh reasonable things to say, reasonable people and he was like, Well, how'd you establish that? Right and uh and she kept trying to dodge it and she and of course she never really answered it. But that's the difficulty, isn't it? Like who gets to decide at what point it's no longer just debate about ideas and actually what you're saying is coming from a place of hate to create hate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um Yeah, how do you know that? And and especially because the criteria by which you're gonna assess that is like shifting sense that you know, we're gonna get onto this in in a little second about um people watching old episodes of of TV shows and how looking looking through the lenses of 2018 at shows that are a quarter of a century old, all of a sudden that's hateful and that's unacceptable. And yet, you know, we're using these criteria that's just unearthed. And it's just it's and how do you stop that from being mob rule? How do you stop that from being, well, most of my friends think that's unaccepta uh unacceptable? Well, maybe most of your friends are wrong, who knows? Um so so it's just it's just interesting to me that this issue of of Trump, like whether it's unacceptable or not, is based on whether it's racist or not. And I I think I think we can just conclude it's unacceptable already, but I don't think we need to use that.
SPEAKER_00I think that's fair.
SPEAKER_02But I think there is this holy trinity of moral judgments to do with race, gender, and sexuality. You know? And that's the holy trinity. And if you transgress against those three, and only three, kind of uh whatever whatever you want to say, protected categories, then you are worse than Hitler. And if you don't, I guess you're okay. Um and it's just it's just such a narrow way of looking at the world. Um and the reason the reason another reason I I started thinking about this was because of uh an article about Friends um that surfaced in the Metro and then on BBC News they they referenced this this article in the Metro. And it's all about people who are fans of friends re-watching the episodes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's because it's just come on on Netflix, isn't it? That's the thing, the whole seat everything's now there, so everyone suddenly on my social media, suddenly people were like, Friends is on Netflix, we can start watching it again. Yeah. And everyone was really excited.
SPEAKER_02And that was you, right? You said you are both a fan. I well, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'd already we'd actually already started watching it on DVD because we had the DVDs and it was before that. So we were just that's a DVD, a digital versatile disc.
SPEAKER_02They're still in charity shops in VHS, aren't they? The VHS section is just flooded with Dan Brown books and friends on VHS.
SPEAKER_00The kids are saying those are the ones you put on the spinning thing, you put a needle on it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you've been you've been re-watching how how does friends stack stack up?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what? Um, I mean, obviously it's dated in the sense that you look at it and you go, wow, like, check out those 90s haircuts and cracking attire. Um and you know what, uh largely, you know, we've we've enjoyed it just as much as we have before. There was just one I mean, there were one or two episodes, or not even whole episodes, but just parts, where I just thought to myself, oh, that wouldn't get in today. Yeah. And that there were jokes where I thought, you know, the the the the butt of the joke here is, you know, insinuating Chandler might be gay or something like that. Yeah. You know. And I just thought, oh, that would never happen today. But I didn't look at that and think to myself, oh man, I'm morally outraged. Yeah. We must, you know, burning every episode of Friends, and we should get Matthew Perry up and crucify him.
SPEAKER_02Answer for crimes against humanity.
SPEAKER_00Everyone who was involved in Friends.
SPEAKER_02In the BBC article, they they cited this tweet. Um this woman tweeted out, there was nothing I hate more than Ross. Um she didn't need to finish the tweet at that at that point.
SPEAKER_00I like Ross. I'm a Ross apologist. I think Ross is great. Wow. That's that's weird.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, I mean he's not the worst character. I mean Chat Chandler kind of is just he's the first one.
SPEAKER_00No, no, Joey is the worst character. Right. Joey is just like, meh. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Two dimensional. He was the one who got the spin-off, right? Isn't that interesting?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but where did that go?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But why didn't Ross get a spin-off? Wow. That's uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I mean that neither did any of the other five.
SPEAKER_02Oh, did Phoebe try and get a was there a Phoebe spin-off? I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00No, okay.
SPEAKER_02Just Joey. I g I guess because because he's the most two-dimensional character and it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing around him. So you can re you can rebuild a world around Joey just by himself.
SPEAKER_00There's not a lot of story, if I think about it, there's not a huge amount of stories that revolve around Joey, you know, like big arcs of Joey, you know. Yeah, he's just there.
SPEAKER_02Well they put him together with Rachel just because I don't know. It's just like we were bored.
SPEAKER_00Gotta do something. Like, let's put these together. Seven seasons in, gotta do something.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, this woman's tweet, she said there is nothing I hate more than Ross in the male nanny episode of Friends. He is caps lock, so sexist and homophobic, and I just want to jump into the TV and strangle him. And what's interesting is I just want to jump into the TV and strangle him on every episode. But but it's it's just like our spidey senses are just just prick up at sexist and homophobic. Sexist homophobic, and it's and it's just like it's transgressing this holy trinity of sex, gender, and race.
SPEAKER_00And and we were saying earlier, you know, there is plenty of other things in Friends which we could look at and go, Yeah. Those things are that are slightly morally reprehensible or wrong or dubious. Right. But there's no outcry over there was from Christians, there was at the time. There's always outcry from Christians. It doesn't matter what's going on. No, if someone made a film of the Bible, Christians would be outraged. Yeah. That's not even hypothetical. If it was if it was an accurate depiction of the Bible, people would say there's too much violence, too much sex, it's awful. Yeah, yeah. Christians are the best. And they preferred the book. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I would hope they say. But um yeah, I mean, what was I gonna say?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Um people being outraged.
SPEAKER_02Christians were outraged at the time because it was normalizing hookup culture. Right, yeah. So that was those were the that's the moral framework that if you're in the nineties and you're watching Friends, you're worried about this is normalizing hookup culture. Yeah and you know, poor Ross, he's like divorced three times, you know, by the time he's in his mid-thirties.
SPEAKER_00Um I said about we were watching the episode, uh, my wife and I, where Phoebe has kind of two guys on the go the whole time and they don't know about each other, and she's kind of like, who you know, who should I stay with? But it not in a but but very much in a kind of both at the same time going on. It's not a kind of I'll pick one and then it. And I remember I was just sitting through that episode thinking like, what an awful person, Phoebe, you are to do that to somebody, you know. But uh no one's gonna bat an eyelid in society about that kind of thing. I mean, although if we all experienced it today, if we found out that was happening to us, we'd think it was awful. Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't tick the racist homophobic sexists.
SPEAKER_02Right. But if we if we laugh at Chandler for being effeminate, oh hang on, hang on, that does you know offend against the Holy Trinity, and so yeah, so yeah. So uh I don't know, uh have you guys been watching Friends on Netflix? Do you think it holds up? Uh are you with Ross? Could it be any more homophobic? Um yeah, so that's that's what we think about friends. And uh uh today we're we're also thinking about post-truth. Um so this is the video that we released yesterday, um post-truth. But something that's sort of come up in the news uh recently that kind of reminds us of the post post-truth incident is um Oprah for President. Uh yeah. Oprah Winfrey giving her great speech at the Golden Globes, and uh and as she was giving it, people were already making predictions. Oprah for 2020, and she will go head to head with Trump. Like what uh prospect! Isn't it a delicious prospect for all those who don't have to then live in the country unless those are sort of going head to head?
SPEAKER_00It's uh it it's shocking, really, isn't it? I mean a a lot of the complaint about Trump, I mean there's been a lot of complaints about Trump.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But uh there's so much about you know he's he's completely inexperienced for the or he's got no experience of actually leading a country. I mean, obviously not leading a country anyway, who has, but he's got no political experience or anything like that. Um and basically he's just a celebrity pushed into position. Celebrity billionaire.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And people are going, isn't it terrible? What's the answer? Let's get another celebrity billionaire with no experience in politics in any way, shape, or form and make them our president. Yeah. She's nicer though, let's be honest. And and she she's she's a woman. Right. So and black. Yeah, so she's ticking a lot of boxes for that side there.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that interesting? That qualifies her as being diverse, even though, like, in a sense, she's she's another celebrity billionaire, you know, made her fortune on TV and s you know, part of this celebrity.
SPEAKER_00She has a lot in a lot in common with Donald Trump. She's got a loan in that.
SPEAKER_02But when you just view it through gender and race, you're like, Ah, she's the polar opposite.
SPEAKER_00And no, but that is that's what we're saying, isn't it, that it's so interesting that in our society or in Western society today, yeah, that's the criteria. The criteria for diversity is Yeah. Gender race sexuality and nothing else.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Which is interesting. So yesterday uh was Martin Luther King Day, so the second Monday in uh in January. And you know, one of the most famous things that Martin Luther King said was, you know, he had a dream that you know his kids would be judged not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. And what's fascinating about all this identity politics is that it gets sort of stirred up to the to the point where actually the the colour of my skin becomes more important than the content of my character. And suddenly, you know my race, whether I'm white, black, or whatever, suddenly starts to either qualify me or disqualify me because of certain identity politics. And you just would wonder, isn't Martin Luther King you know, spinning in his grave saying, no, no, it's about the content of your character? And who knows what Oprah thinks about you know policy issues? Who knows what Trump thinks about certain policy issues? He was a Democrat for a lot of his life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Who knows? We were saying, you know, saying earlier, it just feels like I said my irony meter has exploded. You know, like it it it and it it probably is, it sounds controversial to say, doesn't it? But you know, talking about that stuff in Martin Luther King, we know it's a terrible it would be terrible and definitely wrong to say, oh, because someone is of a certain race or gender, therefore they must be like X, Y, or Z. Whether that's good or bad. We wouldn't just say all people of one race are good or all people of one race are bad. We know that's wrong. We say actually it's about individuals. Um ironically, where we are now, a situation where you're just told, you know, if if you if you fit if you are, of course, white or gendered, white male, whatever. Exactly, then of course you are a part of the problem. Yeah. Uh you are, you know, you're the misogynistic part of the patriarchy, oppressor, yeah, um sexual predator, all those things, um almost by default. And you go, hang on a second, isn't that the very thing aren't you just doing the very thing You're playing the race card and you're you know Yeah. Is it possible that there are white men who are not like that? Is it possible that there are black men who are not like that and some who are, and white men who are and aren't, you know? But actually, the colour of my skin or my gender might not have anything to do with the way I treat other people. Right. Like you know. I might, you know, maybe I'm an awful human being. Yeah, maybe maybe it's not because I'm a bloke or not because I am white.
SPEAKER_02Paul, there are all sorts of reasons why you're a terrible human being.
SPEAKER_00Comments below.
SPEAKER_02Why this call? Such a great specimen of humanity. Do comment on that. I'd love to read out why you think it's the case. Because I've got theories of my own, but I just want to see if they're coming across to you. We uh we asked on uh Facebook what would be the UK equivalence of Oprah versus Trump? Um and uh my my suggestion was Katie Hopkins versus Lily Allen. Like imagine that going head to head.
SPEAKER_00Um we had some others. Um here we've got Milo Yenopoulos versus Owen Jones. Yeah. Man, that would be a real I'm watching with a popcorn. Oh man, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh I I again I would not want to live in the country. Was then left to these two.
SPEAKER_00As a hypothetical.
SPEAKER_02As a hypothetical, it's funny. Um Lord Sugar versus Judy Finnegan.
SPEAKER_00I like I do like Jeremy Clarkson versus Trisha Godhardt.
SPEAKER_02Like Nick Griffin, um a politician already, but um versus Esther Ranson, yeah. Um I think my favorite is Katie Hopkins versus Des O'Connor.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, just putting aside the fact, I think Des O'Connor might be dead. Yeah. But to be honest, he would probably still be better than Katie Hopkins.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I think Piers Morgan versus J.K. Rowling, I I think actually, that I think that does capture something of J.K. Rowling as the the the British Oprah.
SPEAKER_00I think that might capture something of Because that was something when we were talking about this, I was struggling to think who the figure is. Yeah. You know, because uh Katie Hopkins was the one who came to mind very much on the kind of Trump-esque character. Yeah. That seemed quite easy. It was more difficult to f to find a single figure who you go, they're very much like. But yeah, J.K. Rowling, now you say that.
SPEAKER_02Especially because she's kind of got this rags to Richard's story. Yeah. Very successful businesswoman now. She got a big break, she's brilliant at what she does. And and she's a voice on Twitter, you know, standing up for the little guy and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02You know. So so maybe Katie Hopkins versus JK Rowling. For British for British listeners and viewers, this is what we're thinking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like the next general election. So pray for America, because that's what they're having to you know covered.
SPEAKER_00I think it's just worth clarifying off our discussion. Yes, you know, we're not we're not taking sides on either of these. No. We're literally we just we find both sides completely absurd. It's the absurdity of of both arguments. We don't do it.
SPEAKER_02We don't only think that 50% of this list is dreadful. We think one of thread. Everything just hilarious. Uh we were talking about um Oprah Winfrey, yeah. Making a statement about the one thing that she knows is that telling your own story is the most powerful tool. Telling your truth. Your truth. Which is interesting.
SPEAKER_00If she'd said telling your own story And and we said, didn't we, that it if if if you're listening to that, maybe if you're being generous, the question is what does she really mean? Yeah. You know, did she mean telling your own story is is the most powerful thing you can do? Which of course it is very powerful. One of the most powerful things, yeah. So, you know, saying speaking your truth could mean something else. Yes. Um potentially.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um so what does it mean? And we're we were discussing therefore, you know, let's imagine 2020, we get it's it's Trump versus Oprah. Yes. Um and we know about Trump and his alternative facts. Oh yeah, alternative facts. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. What happens therefore when Trump brings his truth starts speaking his truth against Oprah's truth. Yeah. Where's the truth? Where's the truth? Whose is the truth in that?
SPEAKER_02Is it just the person who speaks loudly? Well more loudly.
SPEAKER_00Well, this is yeah, I mean, this is pushing into the territory of our video, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Of of So Yeah, so hopefully you've seen our video. If not, it's on the Speak Life uh Facebook page, Speak Life UK. And uh in that video we talk about post-truth and we talk about uh some issues to do with post-truth. Um it was the word of the year in 2016. Uh was that the Oxford English Dictionary? Uh I think it was.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Claims it's the word of the year. We said we said it's actually two words. And then actually last year, I think it was last year, whether they've chosen it for this year, fake news was the word of the year. Eurofake news. Fake news. Again. Eurofake news. Yeah. I kind of feel though if you work for a dictionary, you should be aware that fake news is actually two words. Is it? Is a hyphenated word, one word, or two words? Tell us in comments below. You can't just stick a hyphen between every phrase you like and call it and call it one word.
SPEAKER_02Well the Germans don't even bother with the hyphen. They just like shh put them all together, like like 300 letters long. Um uh we've got uh Harriet Glen Denning saying, Can you we can hear you? Hello, hello, hello Harriet. Uh Neil says, hello from Jakarta, Indonesia, can hear us okay? That's good. Uh Eudora, writing from Singapore, can hear us. What an age we live in. And Sarah says hi as well. Hi, Sarah. Hello, Sarah. Didn't do want to leave you out. Um this we could just read out to people. I don't know how long you've got, but uh we want to keep this within a lunch hour. This is kind of the idea on a Tuesday is that we have a working lunch together, and maybe you can eat your lunch at your desk. Uh I've been eating my lunch at my desk, uh, some yummy sandwiches, and uh discuss what's new, what's news, and uh discuss our videos.
SPEAKER_00And and we're gonna aim to try and get started at one each week. We've like I said, we've just had some technical issues this week, so apologies if you were there at one ready and waiting, and apologies if you've been cut off in the middle.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um but hopefully we'll if you're sitting down. The idea is hopefully just sitting down for lunch either at home or at work, maybe. Um you can tune in.
SPEAKER_02Just like this. Do you see what I'm doing? Exactly, exactly. My wife made me this. Very good. Thank you, Emma. Um, so our video uh that uh went out there yesterday, yesterday evening, post-truth. Uh we went through six different points, and because our technology has now reconfigured, I've got to now remember it using the powers of my mic. Oh, here it is. Okay. So, number one issue with post-truth is that it is contradictory. Um To say it is true that we are now post-truth is to violate the truth of post-truth, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean to say all things are relative, you know, so um Including the statement all things are relative? Well, exactly. That's the problem to say everything is relative is is a is an absolute statement in itself, isn't it? Unless only Siths I feel in absolutes. Only the bad people use absolutes. And actually that's very much what I came up against when we were at the Mind, Body and Soul Convention, which for those of you who you won't be aware of it, um is kind of a a a spiritual um fair kind of thing. Yeah, it's a big convention. We we had a s we we were show, I think it's a show. We we're at a stall on it, uh a kind of it wasn't a speak life stand, it was with Lumina Ministries. If you do the podcast, you might have picked up on George Osborne. Um there, not the politician George Osborne, a different one. We were on a stand with him, so we were a Christian stand in the midst of a whole wealth of other things, you know, from Reiki healing and um was all kinds of stuff, wasn't there? Yoga things and i it all kinds of spiritualities basically. And we were just having chats with people, and one of the big things I came up against time and time again was um people saying, Oh well, I think that all religions or all kinds of spiritualities are all equal and valid. And the problem was, you know, as you tried to say, well, but what about where people contradict each other? And people don't want to deal with that, they don't want to deal with any facts. Right. Um you know, they just want to say, no, everything's good and valid. Interestingly, the one thing that they don't seem to think is valid is the Christian view that Jesus is the only way to God. Right. Um, you know, that will come out in the conversation. They say, so you saying that Jesus is the only way, I say, well, yeah, I think that's what Jesus says. And they say, Oh, well, I don't agree with that. And they go, well, hang on a second, a minute ago you told me that's my truth. Yeah, yeah. Um but that doesn't work in that saying. So actually when you push back against relativism, you find there's always something underneath it that they see as an absolute. Yes, yes. And that's a thing to push for, isn't it? I think when you're chatting to people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so that uh point number one, it it's contradictory, you're sawing off the leg of the tr tree that you're sitting on. Um point two, it's impractical. Nobody lives like this, actually. You know, when you go to the pharmacist and you know they say, Would you like the blue pills that your doctor has prescribed? Um, you don't then say, actually purple's more my colour, so let's And the you know the pharmacist does not then say, Hey, it's a free world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Or or you know, if we had a serious illness, we wouldn't say, Oh, well, I I'm actually a big proponent of, you know, leeches. Yes. You know, I think a bit of good bleeding is gonna get rid of the illness. None of us would say, Oh, well, that's your truth, and that's equally valid. We'd say that's crazy.
SPEAKER_02Tests that you can do. There is a truth standard above here that would arbitrate about whether surgery or pills or leeches was gonna be a good course of action for you. So there there is this truth. So it's impractical, it doesn't, you know. So in medicine you can think about examples.
SPEAKER_00Um what's what's another example of of uh we talked a bit I think you got left on the cutting room floor, but in in planning we talked a bit about courtrooms. Yes. So I mean if can you imagine if in court what uh if if the criteria wasn't what the the truth was, yeah, but actually just what people felt was the truth. Yeah. Um you know, if someone said, well all the evidence all the evidence shows that this person can't have committed this crime, um, you know, they've got an ironclad alibi, you know, whatever it is, you know, if a jury member then turned around and said, Yeah, but I kind of feel he looks a bit guilty. He looks a bit dodgy.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, to me, I feel he might be. Yeah. I mean it's a recipe for chaos if you go down that way. And people will say, well, that's just, you know, going to absurd lengths.
SPEAKER_02But it's not because I mean there is a real danger within the criminal justice system that things like evidence and the facts can play second fiddle to, you know, is this person a minority? Are they a victim? Are they from a protected class? Um and and it does get very messy at times. Um and you know, there are there are totally miscarriages of justice because somebody is um from a minority and the jurors, you know, convict a certain minority because they they look at them through prejudiced eyes. Um but then there's there's a backlash against that, um, that then makes certain minorities into protected classes, and then it becomes a political battle about, you know, how we should view the evidence and how we should view people quite apart from the fact of the evidence. And so it yeah, I don't think it's a hypothetical to say that injected within the criminal justice system, you get to the point where ideology um and identity politics starts to interfere uh when it it should just be a cold, hard examination of the evidence. Um so there's one example. Another example I think is in academia. Um so Stephen Pinker back in December um was on a panel discussing whether the reason why Donald Trump, we just can't stop talking about him. The whole world can't stop talking about this guy. So they were saying, you know, why was he elected? Was it because of political correctness and people just getting sick and tired of political correctness, and they think, well, here's a blunt instrument that's just gonna smash that to pieces, you know, which I guess he is. Um and Stephen Pinker, who is definitely a man of the left, um, you know, his TED talks have been watched millions and millions of times, 10 best selling New York Times bestsellers. But he started to say, well, look, here are some things that it's it's it's impolitic to study at an academic level. Um things like do men and women have different interests and priorities when it comes to the home uh work balance? Um do they you know and you're almost not allowed to press into those details because because you've you know you're you're committed to gender equality, not committed to gender equality.
SPEAKER_00And his point was that the facts show that, don't they? That that that studies he talked about the kind of um the tests they get given in school to determine, you know, what job might you go on to, you know, what would you like to do with your life? And they said, you know, obviously they've been given to millions of people over the years, and just the data shows that men and women choose different things. Right. Um and he's saying that's a it's just a cold hard fact. Yeah, but it's dangerous. But you're not allowed to say that. Because people if you say that, it doesn't matter what the facts are. Yeah. Well, we're just gonna it's going back to our three criteria, isn't it? Of is it racist, is it homophobic, is it sexist? Yeah. And people just leap on it and say, ah, hang on a sec, you're saying men and women are different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That is sexist. Yeah. D despite what the facts might say.
SPEAKER_02And are you allowed to notice, one of the other facts he said, are you allowed to notice the fact that globally international terrorism is overwhelmingly committed by Muslims in the name of Islam um or in the name of a version of Islam or however you want to phrase it. But are you even allowed to name that truth? And that becomes a very difficult truth to name because uh you know, I I've often spoken against the ideology, the philosophy, the theology of Islam, which I think is both incorrect and damaging. Um but it's very easy for anyone who speaks against Islam to then be categorized as racist. And you think what's race has got nothing to do with what I'm thinking about in these issues.
SPEAKER_00And I think as well it's a way to shut down conversation, I find that if you don't want to engage with people's points, it's just very simple, isn't it, to say, oh, you're a racist.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And therefore I don't have to engage with your points. Yeah. Regardless.
SPEAKER_02But what's what's what's infuriating about that is because is that the the race issue is like n galaxies away from where I'm thinking. Like I'm I'm thinking about a theological heresy called Islam that is a brand of Arianism, that is a kind of subordinationism. And then somebody over there is is saying, yeah, but it's because you hate brown people. Like, what what? Like, like A, how do you how would you like look into my heart and never know that? B, wh why would that have anything to do with the ideology and the philosophy of Islam? And and C, you know, Muhammad was famously white. Like, like again and again, the Hatith keep talking about him being the whitest of white prophets uh who held black slaves. You know, so like why are we protecting that guy from criticism? Anyway, but um so I th I think Islam is another area where it shows that people are not interested in discussing the ideology and in discussing the ideas, but it very simply very quickly becomes a way of simply shutting down discourse because okay, it must be a racist issue. Um Islam is not a race, people. But um anyway, so th th those are the first two things. It contradicts itself, it's impractical. Um the third reason why I think post-truth is such a disaster is because then power becomes king. Um so the example that's given in the in the um uh video is if you've got within the playground a referee that's called truth, and truth gets to referee all the disputes that go on in the playground, then you've got something to appeal to and you've got some sense of order. But if you if you get rid of this referee called truth, what's gonna happen in the playground? You know, the bully is going to rule, whoever is biggest, whoever can shout loudest, is is going to win the day, and and that's increasingly what we're seeing. And people are having to get louder and louder and louder to get heard in this world, and the outrage gets more and more and more. And you see this with Trump and not Trump. You know, this these these two ever louder voices in the echo chamber that just go back and forth and back and forth. Because if you sack off truth, then you've got to be big, you've got to be powerful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you know, there was a um email I got just this morning about our video uh yesterday evening. He said he always cringes when issues of equality start to be spoken of in terms of empowerment. And and we all know what people are talking about when they talk about, you know, um, if there's a voiceless person, we want to give them a voice, if there's a powerless person, we want to give them power, and yet when things are framed in terms of power, it can so easily become a punch-up between two forces uh that we want to give equal weight to. But two forces that are adversarial, giving you know, that's called war. You know the whole beauty of having free speech and the whole beauty of truth being uh an arbiter that stands above me and you means that we don't have to resort to war. We don't have to, you know, resort to violence in order to s settle our disputes. There is an arbiter, its name is truth. So that's number three. Uh power becomes king when you sack off truth. Um and then I loved you know your bit in this video, uh Paul, you said the problem with post-truth is me.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I've been blaming you for many years. Yeah, so we were talking about how actually we're we we might say, you know, I want the truth and we have a desire for truth, but actually we we we twist the truth as well to kind of fit our own ends, don't we? And we use the illustration of the football managers having seen, you know, a controversial penalty, one side scores and wins, the other side loses. Both football managers watch the footage, same thing, but actually one of them is saying yes, that's a penalty, other one's saying no it definitely wasn't. And it's because we want to back up our our view, don't we, with you know, certain views.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I and and we talk about how actually, you know, biblically the the prophets have named that all the time, our hearts are deceptive, and you know, even even if you lay out the the cold hard facts, we will want to t take that and twist it to our own ends uh on the whole as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so yeah, the problem the problem is me. The problem is the heart that is deceitful above all things and and always self-justifying, you know. So I I always want to play I never want there to be a judge in my life. I'm always playing the lawyer, who's always trying to get me off the hook, you know. And so who cares about the judgment of truth? I'm always trying to pr you know protect myself. Uh we had some great comments uh on the uh live video uh about you know maybe men and women make different choices um purely because of society has conditioned us to want these different things. And if we gave uh if we had a more equal society, then women would want the exact same things as men or very similar things to what men want. I would just say back to that that that actually um Scandinavian countries where there is great equality between the sexes, and perhaps more than uh in any other uh culture in the world that there's ever been, are some of the most marked differences in career aspirations that we saw. um in in some of the psychological literature. So that that that's just an interesting counterpoint. Love to hear what you think more love to hear um more of what you think in the comments on that one.
SPEAKER_00And I think I mean that's when we come back to you know how do we how do we decide is it just culturally conditioned or not. Right. And for me I I think I would look to to m my authority of scripture and say I think scripture points to differences. Not not inequality but differences which means I'm not surprised therefore when I see data that says men and women make different choices because I think that seems to tie up for me at least with what's my biblical authority. But I mean I think as well you know sometimes we say men and women are no different. Some people say some people will say men and women are exactly the same regardless. But yet at the same time people will say we need to get a woman into this position because she'll really change things. Well surely agenda won't make any difference if men and women are exactly the same. I think it's because we do know men and women are different that we think it's good to have women involved in areas and men, you know, just like you know there'll be men and women involved in different areas of ministry. Yes. Um it's because we think they we do bring valuable and different things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. In a rich tapestry. A rich tapestry. Yeah. But but that we're not interchangeable. So so we're utterly equal and the same in terms of like value but not interchangeable. You know like you know the mother who says to all her children I love you all interchangeably um is not really expressing um what she really means about things. She says I love you all equally but she loves them all differently as well and and and I think that's the kind of equality that we want that actually honors distinction and difference. And and I I think a doctrine of the Trinity and uh let's you know think more about this maybe w one week thinking about how a doctrine of the Trinity that affirms the equality of Father, Son and Spirit even though there are distinct persons might give us a model for thinking about how you could have utter equality but also to to honour the particular and the individual.
SPEAKER_00Maybe that's a question a thorny yeah thorny question to question to address you know um in some way. We'll try and put that into a good phrase. Okay. Ah some people are losing the feed. It did say at our end that it dipped out but it said it had reconnected so we're back.
SPEAKER_02We're back and we're in the home stretch as well because oh my goodness it's nearly two o'clock and uh so let's just um finish off our thoughts about this post-truth video. At the end we say that even though the problem is me with truth and I'm always self-justifying um nonetheless uh even though we walk away from truth truth comes to find us and isn't it beautiful that Jesus calls himself the truth and uh and he says you know because I tell you the because I tell you the truth you don't believe me which is like a stunning like indictment of the human race you know because Jesus tells us the truth we don't want to believe him. We are anti-truth really at our core but nonetheless he then says if the Son sets you free you'll be free indeed so he is the truth that comes not just to judge us but to actually bring us into bonds of of love. His truth does judge us as anti-truth and post-truth but it is also a truth that reconciles us so that we can stand in his presence as those who are self-justifying fools and yet we are loved anyway. And then he says okay now Glenn now run along into the world and in my truth which is the absolute truth in my truth you know Jesus is the one person who can really say that in my truth I want you to walk into the world and and now because I've been loved by a truth that justifies me I don't need to justify myself I don't need to hide I don't need to wear a mask I don't need to twist the truth I can now walk in the truth and the truth will set me free. Absolutely. How about that? Yeah. Well like I say it's two o'clock so let's just let's call it a day, draw stumps and uh we'll have a look at some of these technical issues and we will be back here again uh next Tuesday and uh it will all work just perfectly.
SPEAKER_00And we appreciate you sticking with us through the issues and for chipping in as well because it's good to discuss um what's going on and for people to come back and forth and stuff. We'll do the best we can to uh respond to bits and bobs. Yes. Um so thank you to those of you who chipped in.
SPEAKER_02And let's keep the the discussion happening uh in the comments uh if you missed the first part of our video there'll be another live video on the Speak Life UK Facebook page so the first half of our discussion will be there you can have a look at it there. Do like uh our Facebook page there and you'll get all our videos. And uh stay tuned for our podcast which will be the audio of uh of today and that goes out every Friday the Speak Life podcast search for it uh wherever you get podcasts.
SPEAKER_00And did we say we're gonna be back next week what we're back with? Oh yes so we've got you know if if you thought any of what we talked about today was a hot topic. Yeah. The next two weeks actually we've got two videos coming out to do with sex. Sexuality. Yes um sex videos two sex videos coming from us. Um this is um I'm not selling this well um they're gonna be very informative.
SPEAKER_02So the first one is going to be uh why are Christians so weird uh on the subject of sex and then the second one will be why does God care about our sex lives?
SPEAKER_00Yeah and so you know we'd really appreciate you chipping in on those ones as well and hopefully you'll uh that'll have kind of wet your appetite to be back next week as well.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Thanks so much for joining us and see you next week. Take care