Today on the Evangelist Podcast, reaching out to the new age. The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. Today we've got a real treat for you. We have uh an interview with George Osborne, not that George Osborne. George Osborne, who uh is the head of Lumina Ministries, you can go to Luminar Ministries.com and check out uh his ministry. You can also go back in the archives uh to uh an interview we did with George uh must have been a couple of years ago now. He's got a fascinating story about coming out of the New Age and uh being saved and now following Jesus and following Jesus into some of these New Age conventions and shows uh in which he tries to offer uh good news in the midst of all those things. So in a second, we're going to uh listen to an interview that uh Paul and myself did with George. Uh we recorded it a couple of weeks ago. But first uh we'd love you to um come on over to Facebook and would you give uh Speak Life uh a big like? And uh would you even perhaps uh give it a review uh on Facebook? That often gets us uh seen by lots of people and trusted by more and more people. And uh the great thing is if you like our Facebook page, then you'll be the first to receive some great content, including our Christmas videos that are coming up. Uh we're gonna release the first one on Monday, the 27th of November. We've got four Christmas videos coming out for you. Uh a lovely little uh comedy uh called Meet the Nativity. Uh we've got four episodes that follow the stories of four different characters who in their own special way. Uh Meet the Nativity, it's a comedy. It employs magic realism. We're shooting in a million-pound mansion. We've got about uh 18 people behind the camera, about a dozen actors in front of the camera, all very professional, and uh we'd love you not to miss out on it. So uh please do get excited about Meet the Meet the Nativity. And uh one way you can do that is like us on uh Facebook, Speak Life UK, look for us there, or um on YouTube as well, if it's uh you could subscribe to our YouTube channel. Um but I think without further ado, we'll just jump into the interview, and this is Paul and myself interviewing George Osborne just a couple of weeks ago about the Mind Body Soul uh convention that we visited at Alexandra Palace in October. Uh we are joined by George Osborne of Lumina Ministries. Thank you so much for joining us, George. No worries, good to be here.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Now, George, you have been going into these uh conferences, conventions uh for many years. When when did you start kind of going into new age conferences?
SPEAKER_00Uh that's a good question. Um I think probably the first one was about 2009. Okay. Um so somebody invited me in just to have a look round, and that was my first sort of experience at a show in London. Had a little walk round, very scared and uh trembling as I walked round. Uh exactly. Well, the lady that invited me in was a Christian. There, she was working with a group there that still go in, um, called the Jesus Experience. Um, so that group was there then. There was um another Christian group. I can't remember who they were now, but that was it really. So there was two stands at that show. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So when did you when did you bite the bullet and and have a have a stand of your own?
SPEAKER_00Um so it's probably the following year, 2010. Uh was the first stand, and that was at Olympia in London. Um, and then been doing shows ever since, and now just trying to um, and amongst other things, keep a regular spot at one of these shows each year, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So set the scene. Um, for those who haven't been to one of these shows, you're there, you've got a couple of tables. What's to the left of you, what's to the right of you, and and how do you how do you kind of engage people who are at the shows?
SPEAKER_00So there's a real mix of stuff going on. So there's anything from stands that sell fruit juice to um, I think this year we had the World Wildlife Fund next to us. Yeah. Um but then perhaps some more darker spiritual stuff. So there were people selling crystal bowls with various sounds coming out of them to channel energy, and there's psychics a few doors down, and there's clairvoyance, there's people doing artwork, prophetic sort of art, and reading into people's futures, and there's palm reading, and there's a whole sort of plethora of stuff in between that really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And so what's what's just how do you seek to kind of hook people in? Like, because they're I mean, yeah, they're parousing a whole bunch of stuff, including you know, juice and falafel, and they're looking, they're looking for all sorts of stuff. Um, yeah, why would they stop at your stall?
SPEAKER_00I think well, one of the things that we try to do is is I think of it like Jesus saying, You'll be fishers of men. Um, so in terms of being in that space, that's how I try and think of it. If we're fishing, I don't want to scare the fish off, so we're not particularly overtly Christian on our stand, so there's no uh crosses or uh particular Bible verses on display. Uh so we kind of blend in a little bit with our branding and how we look, so we use similar language, but also biblical language. So there are things like wholeness and restoration and transformation, these sorts of words. Um so I think as people walk past, they they see the stand, it kind of fits in. Um, and then we we offer what we call life readings, um, and I liken this to the Lamb's Book of Life. So the Bible is God's book of life. Um, so I explain to people that we're not uh clairvoyants, we're not psychics, um, but our readings are simply reading from the Lamb's Book of Life, and it's God's word, and we believe that God speaks to us through his word, and we'd love for you to come and sit down at our stand and experience some of that. Um and generally, because we're free, I think that's quite enticing for people. They've kind of got uh there's nothing to lose, you know, they don't have to part with their 20, 30 pounds like they might with the psychics down the road. So they come in and they sit down, uh, and then we're we're up front with them, we explain who we are, that we're a Christian group, we're not you know, we're not um doing any psychic readings or tarot cards, and then on the tables we we have bowls, and in those bowls are um various different cards, and the cards just have pictures on them. And these pictures are Bible pictures, so just different stories from the Bible. And I'll invite people to take some of these cards and then I'll just explain to them what they mean. And it's for me, it's a great platform to talk about the gospel. The different team members have their different sort of angles in, but that's our standard sort of approach, if you like. Yeah. So tell me some good stories about where you've seen this work well. Um, so we've just recently done a show, I think it was last weekend or the weekend before, um, and it's every time it works brilliantly. So we've just seen the stand busy from I guess when the show opens from sort of 10 o'clock till about six o'clock, and a steady stream of people coming to sit down and receive these readings or these sessions with us. Um we also use something, the Father's Love Letter, there's a little tract that can work well just to have a bit of banter with people on the edge of the stand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, written as a love letter to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're done very nicely. And that's that's been quite powerful. We had someone on the stand this year. I think someone must have taken a leaflet, one of these love letters, took it home, left it on a coffee table. His housemate read it and was very moved by it, and she got on the train the following day just to come down to the stand and find out a bit more about what it meant, and a Jewish background believer. Um so one of the team talked to him for about an hour. Um highlight from the last show for me was I was talking to an Italian couple. Um, well, their the chat was Italian, his girlfriend was English, she came to sit down, uh, she had a very troubled past, amazing conversation with her, and she's very moved and sort of had some background with Jesus growing up, but had probably not realized exactly who he was, and was quite moved by hearing some of the Bible stories, and then she translated a conversation for her boyfriend. We ended up talking about the parable of the four soils and just how you know life has maybe choked out what they've heard in the past about God and they've drifted away, and they're both really convicted by that. And then it just popped it popped in my mind at that moment that I'd uh packed an Italian Bible in the box, just one Italian Bible. He didn't have a Bible in his own language, and that really um spoke to him and touched him. Wow, wow.
SPEAKER_01You met someone from Woking as well, which is where you're from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was a that was a good one. Yeah, that was bizarre. So someone was to one of the teams talking to this lady and said she was from Woking. They introduced me saying I was from Woking, so we sort of checked, narrowed down. Whereabouts in Woking? It's well near the Adstore. Well, I'm near the Ad Store and what road, I'm in Arnold Road, you're in Arnold Road, and she lives about 100 metres from where I live, so we had a really good conversation and she's hopefully coming to home group to to come around for a meal and yeah, go get it but seems to do those encounters at these shows, you know, just get people at the right moment. They've been I I find that people are really because they're at the show, they're seeking spiritually, they're in that moment of wanting to get answers, and that's why they're there often. And it's just great timing for us to be there and sort of point them in the right direction rather than some of the other directions they could go in.
SPEAKER_01I remember you told me about a story about one guy who said um he he came and stood by the stall and said, The Cosmos has told me that you've got a message for me.
SPEAKER_00What is your Yeah, that was brilliant. Yeah. I I just looking at another team member, just like, I think we do have a message for you. Yeah. You've come to the right place. Come and grab a seat.
SPEAKER_01Good one. Yeah, yeah. So Paul, uh Paul was there at your first uh Mind Body Soul. Uh what were your impressions of of your first ever uh show?
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean I really enjoyed I enjoyed the whole experience. Um I didn't really know what to expect when I turned up to it. And actually, I thought you know, I think that first half an hour you said just go and have a wander around and see what's going on, and that was really interesting. Just uh like you say, such a a wide variety from the kind of quite everyday, mundane stuff you you wouldn't consider to be spiritual in any way, like the World Wildlife Fund particular, um, through to you know the crystals and the Reiki and all kinds of stuff. And you know, I think I said to you, you know, you walk around I I walked around and I felt very much it was um, you know, like I felt like Paul in Athens, you know, I see you're very religious, um all these people looking and searching for something. Um so there's a yeah, it was a strange feeling really that there's a sense of I mean it's all very bright and looks kind of nice and lovely, and you know, everyone's got a quite nice stand and things.
SPEAKER_00But actually it actually feels quite good, doesn't it? You know, the whole health thing as well, the nice shakes, it's very good, bright colours, it's you can see why people would be enticed.
SPEAKER_04But even just walking around and looking at the stands, and you know, you could see um you know little price lists and things, right? You know, it's not quite as um just for the people as then people might be making out, you know, it's it's very much a money spinner for people.
SPEAKER_01And um it's one of the unique selling points, isn't it? That everything on the store is free. Yes. I mean it's amazing when you talk to people how how impressed they are by this.
SPEAKER_00I try to each time actually try and find, I don't always obviously get to every stand, but look round and find another stand that's doing that. And I I don't find so there was a Japanese kind of spiritual sound around the corner that was free, but even then they have posters up for donations with a suggested amount. Um everybody seems to be wanting something from it, and you know, understandably, in some ways, they're expensive, aren't they? The the stands to the space to purchase, but yeah, it's quite a unique thing for us to be able to say, yeah, this is this is free, you know, Christ is offering himself to you for cost him everything, but you know, yeah, he absorbed the cost and offers it for free.
SPEAKER_01So I mean Paul's mentioned about Acts 17, and I guess like one of the big questions that that always raises is like to what degree do you um build bridges with the you know the world view um that's around you, and to what degree do you contradict it and and say no we're very different? Like, how do you how do you navigate that one, George, as you're reaching out?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that's the hard bit, you've you know that's the that's the nail on the head, isn't it, where it sort of does the rubber reets meets the road, and you've got that person in front of you. Where do I go in this conversation? I mean, each person is different, so it's trying to weigh that up, and you're I guess in some ways frantically praying, you know, what do you want me to say to this person, God? What what direction is this going in? Um and I think you've got to do that. Each person that comes to you and just trying to treat it a little bit differently, it's not a formula that's gonna fit each person, and um but but that's why I love the cards as well, because it's your springboard to talk about Jesus and to plant that seed of the gospel and say, Well, there you go, God's God's gonna do the work and just trust that that seed you've planted is is gonna bear some sort of fruit. I mean the thing that I find I think Paul and I talked about this at the at the show as well, is how how do you communicate those truths when they're they're in such an opposite world view, you know, that pluralistic, there's no sin, there's no absolutes, all that kind of how do you communicate some of that? So that I've wrestled with that over the years, the sin thing, how do we communicate that? And I'm the best way I've found is just talking about marriage as the illustration. That's always been my favourite. They seem to accept just about that um sleeping around when you're in a relationship is is wrong. Right. So so the same spiritually, you know, God wants to know us intimately and be in this relationship. And us in fact, that Italian couple that's that's what convicted her actually. She realized she's been playing around with Buddhism, she's been doing all this different stuff, and and it, you know, if there is a God, actually he wants to know her, and that really struck her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So that's spiritual adultery. That's that's a good category to have for sin. And and um but very confronting, isn't it? When you literally you're at your stall and you basically say, you know, our big problem is that we play the field. Yeah, we go around and we just you know, we dabble in this and we dabble in that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um because like what like two of the two of the cards that everyone who I had picked, one of them was water, and one of them was the tree. And and when they picked water, I found myself talking a lot about Jeremiah 2, which is this great picture of the Lord is the fountain of living waters, but what are we like? We take a shovel to dry ground and we dig our own wells that cannot hold water, and that's the human condition. We look for love in all the wrong places. But it was very interesting, you like the more I pressed into that, the more it became obvious that it was an example of the show itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Here we go, you know, we're looking for this satisfaction, we're looking for fulfillment, and we're trying anything and everything, and it doesn't work, so we try the next thing, and it doesn't work, so we try the next thing. And that's where like to say, oh, here at this stall, it's free. Um, that's just such a that proclaims in itself our message that like we really are offering the living waters for free. Sometimes like do a John 4 thing and say, you know, Jesus went thirsty at the well so that this woman could drink, you know, the end of John's gospel, he goes thirsty again, and the living waters come from his side as the spear goes up and kind of do that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00But um just to throw throw something back at you, how is your because this is your first sort of experience in the show?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00How did you find it?
SPEAKER_01What was your uh Yeah, I mean, just incredible opportunities and um yeah, the the openness is just so different. And and it was interesting, like in in the the two weeks, uh kind of in the week either side of um this show, I'd done um a bit of outreach to Muslims and I'd done a bit of outreach to atheists. And like it's very different talking to a Muslim, and it's very different talking to an atheist, and it's very different talking to a new ager. Like you end up in in a totally totally different kind of set of conversations, but but really refreshing actually to be able to talk to people who know that you know the universe is more than what we see, touch, taste, and feel, and to you know, um who are interested in seeking. Yeah. I mean that's that's just that's just brilliant. Um, you know, on the flip side, you say goodbye to them and they go down the road, and as they go down the road, um, you know, who knows what other broken wells they're gonna be digging. But you just feel like, well, if we weren't there, well, that's that's all they'd be drinking from. They'd only be drinking, drinking from poisonous wells.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01At least with us, they get they get the truth. So yeah, I found it really um yeah, I found it really good. Um it was interesting, I was reflecting on the way home, like there were there were three areas that I was always kind of um ended up disagreeing with people over. And the first one was kind of the the nature of God, and just sort of saying, actually, you know, the higher power for us is not a power or an energy or an experience or a flow or a sound, which is what some of them were saying, or a chant or whatever, um, that literally it's personal love, because it's a father loving his son in the joy of the spirit. Um, and so but that was a difference that hopefully has a payoff. Like, because if you go with this weird thing that the Christians are talking about, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then suddenly love is ultimate, and it's not just energy is ultimate, and it's not, you know, it's not just light is ultimate, it's not something impersonal like that, it's very, very deeply personal. So that let's it's like a difference, but for the sake of you know, saying you like you should want this to be true, you should want ultimate reality to be personal like this. So I found myself disagreeing on the God question, and then like the card that so many people kept on picking was a tree. And so I I talk about humanity as like a tree, and this is the illustration I'm always wheeling out. We're like a Christmas tree, and we're cut down and we dress ourselves up, but we're dead and we're perishing. And I said, you know, the the most confronting thing the Bible says is actually that we we don't have spiritual life within us, um, and we're we're dead and we're perishing, and we need help from beyond us, um, which is obviously a very confronting truth when you're always wanting to help the goddess within.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, exactly. It's the opposite of where they're at, isn't it? It's yeah, I can find it within myself, I've got the answer, I just need to get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But but again, there's hopefully there's a point where you say you should want this to be true, because wouldn't it be cool if there is life from beyond you? Because the descent within yourself is just a hall of mirrors, isn't it? And you can get lost down there. And a few people were kind of responding to that. Um, so yeah, there's good news on the far side of this confronting truth. Uh life comes from beyond. And then that like the third thing was kind of the karma thing. So, you know, lots of people talking about karma. And you know, I I I picked this up from Bono from you too. You know, he's got this great quote where he says, you know, I'm absolutely absolutely convinced that you know, to every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, and that happens in the spiritual realm. Yeah, there's a there's a justice thing and there's a karma, but I'm banking on something deeper than that. I'm banking on grace because I know what I've done in this life, and I know that if I just get that thrown back at me, I'm in deep trouble. You know, I need there to be grace. And so yeah, that third thing is is is again saying, Yeah, yeah, karma, all right, right. But the essence of love is not justice. You know, I you know, I seek justice from a judge, I don't I don't go to a judge to get a hug, you know. And and so again, you're you're you're pushing against karma, um, but hopefully you're showing them uh no, there's something better than karma. There's a thing called grace, and that's you know, so so that yeah, that that was my sort of reflection on like how do you navigate between um commonalities and then contradictions. And I think um yeah, you you try to yeah, you're upfront with the contradiction, but you try and present it as I think you should want this to be true, because I think on the far side of this contradiction there's there's something even better. So um and as I as I was driving home, I was thinking, oh that's interesting because um those three points are actually 321. But anyway.
SPEAKER_00Another shameless plug there, eh? Yeah, it's available now from all good research.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so don't you think as well that the it was what strikes me is the emptiness of it all as well, and just how much it doesn't offer.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Like it's a lot of shiny promises and lovely wrapping paper, and then you open it and it's just air, really. There's nothing there's no substance, there's no right and how much more we do have to offer and and that's That's exciting to be in that space and be you know, and people want to hear and they're quite struck by what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it doesn't always doesn't always happen like that. Paul, what sorry I've taken over the interview here, but what's what's what's um what about your sort of challenges in it, Paul? What did you because you were talking on the Sunday as well, finding Friday quite different to Sunday?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean I th I found Sunday it felt a lot more difficult. I I had at least two separate conversations which were quite hard work. Um both of them basically um well one of them was really just very kind of pluralist, like everyone's everything's all the same, all religions are the same, and even if I mentioned particular contradictions, they would say, Oh no, it, but at root, of course, they're all the same, and um there's no right, there's no wrong, there's no truth, and stuff like that. And actually, it's very difficult to come back. I found it difficult to come back at that, um, because almost because there's nothing tangible to argue against anyway, because they they almost believe everything and nothing at the same time. Um, you can't pin them down. Um, I mean, I think uh one lady, I mean, I I was working quite hard in myself thinking I I don't want this to get too confrontational. Um but she, you know, when she said there was no right or wrong, I don't believe in right or wrong. I think I turned around and said to her, you know, if I went home and strangled my three-year-old, three-year-old daughter, would that be right or wrong? And she said, Well, that's definitely wrong. Um and I tried to push into that. I said, Well, why is that wrong? She said, Well, harming other people is wrong. And I'm like, Okay, but why? Why is it wrong to harm other people then? And pushed a little bit, and she and she ended with, well, it's just common sense. Um and actually, but I mean there's no real basis there, it's just kind of what they fancy believing. And I think actually you you you said at one point, or a number of times during conversations, um trying to find out from people what is their authority, what is their ultimate authority, and actually people, you know, I guess people do have one whether they know whether they're calling it that or not. Um even those ones who are saying there is no authority and there's no truth and there's nothing right or wrong. That was really hard. Um, and actually, I mean I would say as well, I mean I had lots of really good conversations, but the ones I went away, you know, the ones that resound in my head are the ones that didn't go quite as well, and you think, oh why didn't I say this or whatever, you know?
SPEAKER_00That's a great way to learn, I find, isn't it? You walk away going, Oh, could have said this, could have and then hopefully next time it goes a little bit better or Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I mean the other thing that I came up against time and time again, I mean, I met lots of people who um sometimes once we'd done the cards and conversation seemed to have died a bit, I just said to them, Well, what do you think? You know, do you have a faith of your own or any kind of belief and we'll push into that bit? And so many people had a kind of some kind of Christian background, a lot of them had a Catholic background, um, and you know, they'd they'd either been to Catholic schools as children, convents, or Catholic family, and they kind of walked away from it. And I mean 100% of them basically just said all they knew of it from it was kind of wrath and judgment and condemnation. Um I was I was really kind of saddened by that, you know, that particularly as you know, we've been doing this Reformation stuff at the moment, and you know, 500 years down the road from the Reformation, and actually a lot of this stuff is still holding sway and giving people such a negative image of Christianity and stuff. But interestingly, I said to a lot of them, well, let's put aside, you know, put aside Catholicism, put aside Christianity as a thing or church, and what do you think about Jesus? And um actually either people had never really thought about it, and when they when you started talking about Jesus, they were quite, you know, they they liked the sound of Jesus, or they immediately turned around and said, Oh, yeah, well, I love Jesus. This is great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Jesus is great, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I don't really like the church, and you know, some people were saying, I just think some people are very bad representatives, and I and I kind of wanted to say to them, Oh, and I did say to them, Well, I agree, you know. Of course, there've been lots of people who have been bad representatives for Christianity, and said, I know I am at lots of different points as well. But actually, think about Jesus himself, and um that was a much more fruitful way to go. And I think you know, particularly one of the conversations that I had a really good time with was a lady called Barbara, who I think she was she was with that lady who lived on your road.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04Um I think she lived on your road as well, but she lived relatively nearby, and she was, you know, we had a really good, really good conversation, and I suppose again, similar to what we've mentioned, we we got to a point where I said, you know, I think in some ways we're saying similar things. We both think that we need transforming, um, but you think it comes from comes from inside you, and I'm saying I think you can only get it from outside. So there was that kind of common ground there that we we were both kind of pushing at the same thing, but the way of getting it was very different.
SPEAKER_00Um how you and how are you doing it? Transf how are you doing it, transforming yourself? You know, that's a good thing. How's that going for you?
SPEAKER_04You know, um and I've been done it all your life. One of the ones that was really hard, I said, you know, I did say how's that going? And they were like, oh well, you know, it's it's not bad, but they don't some people have done really well, and they were saying, like, they were saying, you know, some people have probably transcended it and they're you know, reborn. They said they even said, Oh, you know, Jesus is probably still here somewhere today, like you know, he he was you know, reincarnation and whatnot, and but yeah, no one no one turned around and said, you know, I've nailed it, I'm on it.
SPEAKER_01So it's that broken wells thing, isn't it? And yeah, so people just touring around with and and the faddishness of it as well. That that that was another quite interesting thing, is that there there we were with this ancient spirituality. And there's there's one one way of describing you know the church. The church is this really ancient spirituality, um, you know, amidst all of you know a bunch of very you know, very faddish, you know, things, the you know, the the latest techniques to do this, that, and the other. And of course, you know, you need those latest techniques because the last thing didn't work, you know, you need the latest paperback because the the previous paperback you know wasn't quite deliver on the transformation front. Yeah. Do you have any reflections on why the like probably 90% of the people I spoke to were women? Like, why why is there such a gender bias towards women at these days?
SPEAKER_00That's a good question. Um women are open to that quite intimate conversation and that you know, whether it's with a psychic or whatever, opening up their lives. Whereas I don't think men are that good at doing that. So maybe there's there's some of that um yoga's a sort of weigh-in, and traditionally that's been more female dominated. Um maybe it's a bit more gentle than playing rugby or something more historically masculine, I think.
SPEAKER_01I met like a lot of lonely people, and like Paul was saying that you know, one of the people that he was speaking to, they were you know just asking about like relationship advice, just you know, showing in text messages and saying, like, what do you think about this and what should I say next and that sort of thing. And and it's it's almost like you just think like these people just they they need a good friend, like me. Yeah, you know, and then actually what a psychic does is really intensively devote themselves to you for the next 15 minutes and to, you know, to kind of to plunge into the complicated waters of Lake U, you know, and swim around for a little bit, and and like and maybe that's kind of a need that men we've got it, but we suppress it and we don't really, you know, we don't do those deep friendships, we don't do those deep connections. And maybe maybe the new age is is offering that kind of connection. I don't know. So what's what's what's next, George, in terms of uh you're gonna go back into these shows and and keep uh keep plugging away at this?
SPEAKER_00I think so, yeah. I think and what at the moment just want to do this this one a year with other stuff going on. I'd like to you know, I did come away from that show thinking, and each year to be honest with you, thinking we could do more of this, there's more opportunities, you know, there's shows in Manchester, there's shows all over the world. I had a that weekend or just before, I had a contact from a guy in Quebec in Canada who's trying to reach out to a show there and wanting to get ideas. Um so they're all over the place, and it is almost like you could do that as a full-time job, go from show to show and I you know, I I I think yeah, I want to keep keep doing it, and I I think just trying to encourage other Christians into it. Um it's maybe a conversation that we we guys could have at some point as well. But just thinking about sh a church is local to that show, you know, trying to get more of the Christians in that locality to to go in, maybe they could get their own stand, you know, or use the branding that we've got and already set up, just go for it. So I guess multiplication would be a good um goal really to try and encourage other um so there's a uh um a vicar there, Adam Pimble came in on the Saturday Sunday, had a look round, was totally blown away, got stuck in as well on the stand, had a couple of people that were from his location that met him that took a Bible, and you know, and he was quite like, you know, you can go all week and not have these sort of conversations. Yeah, yeah. So I think just trying to spread that as well, and trying to and I think from what I'm hearing from you too as well, and going in there, it's like, wow, look how open people are, look how hungry people are. It's trying to show that I think to other Christians that these people are searching, and I think this area is growing, yoga is growing, you know, this new age stuff is growing. We think it's just some wacky part of society, but I think it's mainstream, and the people that we meet on the stand aren't just your sort of weird witch or whatever, it's it's normal everyday people that are just looking for answers, and that's where they're going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So long may it continue. And uh yeah, we wish you all the best with that, George, and thanks so much for uh yeah, inviting us up into it, because it was uh yeah, a really eye-opening and fruitful uh weekend.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you for being involved. It's great to work with you.
SPEAKER_01Pleasure, pleasure, and I'm sure we'll I'm sure we'll chat again on this. Amen. So that was George Osborne of Lumina Ministries. Uh, and do go to Luminar Ministries.com and uh find out more from them. You can follow them online as well. And especially I think if you are perhaps uh if you if you go to church in London, uh, can you think about maybe coming along to the show? Because we encountered lots of people from London, and it would just be great to be able to plug them into local London churches. Maybe you're even a church leader in London. Um, you know, Adam Pimble, who George mentioned uh in the interview, he came along from a church in Crouch End and was just wowed by the opportunities. And wouldn't it be great to bring uh a bunch of people from your church into these shows uh to talk to people and then you're very well placed to be able to disciple them afterwards. So if that's something you'd be interested in, do get in touch with me or with George um at Luminar Ministries.com. But um Paul, you were it was your first time at the at the conference at the show, Mind Body Soul. Yep. Is there anything that you would kind of take away from the show into the rest of your evangelistic kind of encounters and think that it helped you?
SPEAKER_04I mean I think it just helped in the sense that when you sit down with people you you've literally got no idea where that conversation is gonna go. And one of the things that kept going through my head actually as I sat down with these people and and they started to talk a little bit was my temptation was to keep talking. And actually I kept telling myself, no, listen. And I think actually maybe that's an important part of our evangelism. We often talk about you know what we should say when we do evangelism. But I was really struck by actually it was more important for me to listen because actually hearing what they said then they might say something which made me think, ah, okay, the the thing the area for me to speak into now is this or that. Um rather than deploy my you know, uh fully formed gospel outline uh ready. Uh so I think there was yeah, listen to what people are saying, and I think that's quite helpful thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And people do share themselves if you let them. Um and yeah, and so often the answers that we give to people that occur to us at a gut level are just the the fleshly response. But yeah, letting people and people can often convict themselves of sin and that sort of thing in in a way that's far more effective than if you jump in and do it. You know, give them enough rope to hang themselves and they can't.
SPEAKER_04And I think you know, part of it as well was just asking questions or questioning evangelism almost. So rather than say, you know, we're all sinners. You're a sinner too. You you would think of a question that maybe allowed them you know, do you think you always get it right? You know, do you ever do you ever do something and you think, oh, why did I do that and where does that come from? And you know, probab I'm I'm sure there are better questions than that. But um it allows them to start to analyse themselves a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Look at their own hearts and it's not just you saying something negative about and George is very good at that, and he was as you mentioned in the interview, he was good at saying, What's your authority for that? What's your authority for that? And another th question that he was good at asking was and where do you think this power comes from? You know, so so not just yeah, where where's your authority for saying stuff, but where's where's the power coming from that you're seeking in the new age? And and and again, framed as a question, it's yeah, it's it goes a lot deeper than a statement that you just you know speak at somebody. Um so yes, all these different ways. Questioning evangelism is a great is a great little book if you want to uh investigate this further, Randy Newman. Randy Newman. Randy. Randy Newman? Yes, guess which country Randy Newman comes from. Um no prizes. And on that bombshell, uh we're gonna wrap up this episode of the Evangelist Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Uh, we'll have all the links to George and Lumina Ministries in the show notes. Uh but do stay tuned for more about the Christmas video. And uh, if you're not already subscribed, what are you doing? Take a good long look at yourself in the mirror and uh try and figure out what's what is life all about. If you are not already subscribed to the Evangelist Podcast, do do that. Uh give us a rating and review, that really helps us. Share us on social media, and uh and do um come over to YouTube and Facebook and give us a like uh because that really helps us to share the the good news. But uh thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye.