This week on the Evangelist Podcast, Scripture Alone. The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello, welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm here today with Glenn Scrivener. Hello, hello Paul Feasy. How are you? I am well, thank you, Glenn. Yes, all doing good. And we are carrying on today looking at Oh, and there's someone else in the room. Back for another week.
SPEAKER_02Back for another week. Because we haven't left. We've been down here all week, haven't we, Ruby? Playing on our iPad. In the bunker. In the bunker, underneath a volcano in the middle of the Pacific.
SPEAKER_01So we've got Ruby here as well. And so we're carrying on today looking at the next in our series of the solars. Solar means what? For those who aren't as versed in Latin as you are. Absolutely. Alone. Alone. There it is. It means alone. We've only been looking at it for three weeks now, so scriptura alone today. That's what we're looking at. Solar scriptura. Solar scripture scriptura. So as as we as we kind of begin, it'd be good to think about where the Reformation came from and why why then, why in the 16th century?
SPEAKER_02Right. Why five hundred years ago? And I and I guess because sort of five and a half centuries ago the printing press was sort of uh invented. And and that had a massive impact. I mean there were lots of people during medieval times who had all sorts of wonderful gospel thoughts and who thought the Pope was getting stuff wrong. In fact, large sections of the church was really dissatisfied with the with the church and with the Pope and and thought that there was all sorts of moral decay, and some people even thought there was theological decay and and what are we going to do about it. But really it took the printing press uh to bring things to people's attention. So you you get Erasmus in the 16th century coming up with a brilliant sort of Greek New Testament edition, and now people are able to sort of read the original of of the New Testament, not just the Latin Vulgate uh translation that people have been using. And then when people like Luther get hold of the Gospel Message of the New Testament, um his teachings and preachings are able to just go viral because all of a sudden, you know, hundreds and thousands of copies of the ninety-five theses, etc etc, um, can get into people's hands. So why yeah, why the sixteenth century and not the fourteenth or thirteenth? Yeah, I'm speaking in the microphone again. Yeah, that's right. That's so why the sixteenth century and not the fifteenth, fourteenth, thirteenth uh not because people were any cleverer in the sixteenth century, but literally it's this technological thing, and literally you're able to have Bibles in people's hands. And so yeah, so really, you know, it's i it's n it's not this grand idea that Luther had that he dreamt up one day. It's it's coming out of Scripture that that that it is able to birth this this grand reformation.
SPEAKER_01And I guess and for for Luther specifically, it it was one particular scripture, wasn't it? The um I'm sure there are many that struck him, but the the one that really stood out for him was uh Romans chapter one, verse seventeen. It says uh talking about the uh the gospel is for in it the f sorry, for in it to the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith. And this is this is kind of something he had w when he had his kind of tarot experience, isn't it? You know, that that previous to this he had been very much burdened by his his sin. You know, he said, you know, I'd prayed and I would do all these things and then wonder had I had I done it enough? You know, we were talking the other day about uh the steps.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, climbing the holy stairs, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, kissing each step and saying the Lord's prayer on each step and then getting to the top and saying, Who knows if this is so exactly, you know, that lack of assurance. And you know, he he says as he reads Romans one verse seventeen, he reads about the righteousness of God being revealed. For him initially that was something he he he thought was bad news. Right. Because he thought, you know, here's God who's so righteous and I am so unrighteous, how can God's righteousness be good news for someone like me? He even goes as far as saying, doesn't he, you know, I I did not love but I hated the righteous God, you know, punishes sinners, etcetera, etcetera. So I mean that's what it kind of made having that kind of that notion had obviously, you know, warped Luther's view of God and you know, it certainly wasn't a a a a good relationship there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But then in this verse he understands actually righteousness, it says is revealed from faith for faith, as is righteous the r uh the as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith. And he began to realise that righteousness something is actually something that we receive by faith. It is not it's not God's you know, righteousness being lauded in our face for us to attain to stand it over us, not too much. It's being given to us, yeah. And actually only through faith, not through penance or ritual or whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And he and he says about his this experience, he says, um the way it came is he says, uh nevertheless I beat impatiently upon Paul, most ardently desiring to know what he wanted. Uh and in our video we've got Paul um doing exactly that. Paul Paul beating on Paul. Paul beating on Paul. But it's a it's a great phrase, isn't it? Beat him I th I think actually in the original it's or in in in uh a more uh fusty translation in English, I beat importunately upon Paul. But yeah, yeah, I beat importunately upon Paul, most ardently desiring to know what he wanted. At last, by the mercy of God, says Luther, meditating day and night, I gave heed to the context of the words. And then he realizes that you know righteousness is a gift, it's not the standard above him. When he understands this Bible study, he says, Here I felt that I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates. And so here's his personal reformation that then you know gives rise to um this cultural and and ecclesial reformation, but it all begins with Bible study. And what's really interesting is like we we kind of think of of Bible study as this really boring, dull thing to do. But but Paul is like, no, beating impatiently, and you know, by the uh meditating day and night, giving heed to the context of the words, this is the way to paradise. Like really doing careful, intense Bible study actually sparks a reformation in your own heart, and and it did spec spark the reformation in history.
SPEAKER_01And y th that kind of way of looking at scripture, uh that way of reading scripture and letting scripture kind of get into you and affect you in the way it did Luther. I mean, uh would you say you've had any experiences of Bible study?
SPEAKER_02I'm always thinking about um, you know, one Bible study in which we were covering Garden of Gethsemane, and I guess I had I had uh teenage years that are a little bit like Luther's in terms of being a very serious religious kind of a person, but you know, secretly hating God because, you know, there are his standards above him, uh, and there are God's standards above me, and I'm not able to meet them. And Garden of Gethsemane was a massive verse for me, because I just I sort of thought that here is Jesus my example, who is praying to God and you know, praying this great prayer of commitment to God, and feeling like I need to do it like Jesus. And and yet in this Bible study, you know, we had a look at it and and wrote a study, the Garden of Gethsemane, and I said, Oh no, I can't I can't handle this this passage because I can't do it like Jesus. And the Bible study leader said, What do you think you're Jesus? I said, No, well, maybe, maybe. And he said, No, you're not Jesus in in this story, you are Peter, and what's Peter doing? And Peter is rubbish, failing, ridiculous Peter, and Jesus prays for him. And all of a sudden, you know, just that scriptural truth just flipped everything on its head for me, and and I I guess I I kind of um you know felt like I was altogether born again and entered paradise through through open gates. I think the Bible has that that kind of that kind of power, that kind of impact to kind of unlock something in you and and cut to the cut to the heart as, you know, Hebrews 4 says. It's a sharper than a double-edged sword, and it, you know, um, you know, judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. And I I think that's that's kind of what scripture does. Have you ever had experiences of that? You know, scripture really reshaping, remaking you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I I think uh i in a number of ways. So I think things that come to mind uh of the way uh scripture has uh leapt out of me in different ways. So I mean I remember being a teenager and reading kind of through Romans, and you know, when Paul speaks of you know, that what I want to do, I don't do, and you kind of go, that's me. Um and uh but I think uh one particularly is stuck out here is Romans three uh verse twenty-three, I think it is, isn't it? Where um you know we've had this massive build-up, the first three chapters of Romans are all pretty much a lot of bad news, isn't it? Um sorry I say Romans three twenty-three. I don't mean that. I mean Romans three twenty-one. Yeah. All this kind of stuff which is very kind very kind of you know, everyone's a sinner and everybody's lost. Yeah. And then we get to Romans 3, uh, verse 21, and we get but now. Yeah, right. You know, and um I think I was at New Word Alive at some point, and the guy speaking was saying, like, you know, this is the biggest but in the Bible, you know, he's talking to students, so he's allowed, you know, to get away with those kind of things. Talks about a righteousness of God has been revealed through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe there is no distinction, all of sin to fall short of the glory of God. Um, you know, and it's manifested um apart from the law, and you just think, ah right. And then, you know, for later on kind of being I remember particularly being struck one day reading Romans 7 and this idea of you know how we've been our relationship to the law was like one who was married and you know, a partner dies and they're no longer married, and actually you died because Right. Through the body of Christ. Um But then I s yeah, and so that was very freeing, I think, yeah. When you're confused about the relationship between the Christian and the law. Yes. Um but then even more freeing, I suppose, off the back of that is to realise that he's he's really Paul's probably there talking to Jewish people, really. Um and actually as a Gentile I've never been under the the law, you know. Um, you know, the kind of Jerusalem council. They go, well no, don't don't put this burden on the Gentiles, and you kind of go, Oh, I've I've never been under this. Right. You know, this has never been on on my back. Um it's tremendously freeing, I think.
SPEAKER_02All these different paradigm shifts that happen, yeah, when scripture just pierces through like that. Um So what what do we so so scripture kind of birthed a reformation in Luther and it birthed a reformation in the sixteenth century, and it's birthed reformations in our lives. Um but what do we mean by this phrase solar scriptura, scripture alone? Um what's it getting at? What does it does it just mean the Bible and me, you know? Just just the two of us, you know. Is yeah, what what does it mean to say solar scriptura? Are we saying that the only book we ever read, the only book we think is ever important ever, is the Bible? What is yeah, what's it what's it getting at?
SPEAKER_01Uh well no, it's not really saying that, is it? It's it's it's a reaction uh to uh w what Luther was seeing in the church, I suppose, that scripture wasn't seen it's doing with authority, isn't it? What's our highest authority? And and and Luther was I was keen in the end to go uh to say scripture needs to be our ultimate authority, not popes, not councils, not tradition or reason. Right. You know, those are the kind of you know that when you think about uh you hear Christians say where you've got scripture, tradition, and reason. And you know, s sola scriptura is really saying all those things can be helpful, right? You know, so tradition can be good and helpful, reason can be good and helpful, but actually the ultimate authority has to be scripture. Yeah. Um and so tradition needs to be submitted to scripture. So is this tradition good? Well we need to go back to scripture and see reason. Yeah we need to recognise our own reason is fallen, so and reason can be renewed by the trans you know, absolutely. You know, and and you know, at the moment as well, I've heard people say that people are introducing a new thing that actually scripture, tradition, reason, and experience.
SPEAKER_02Experience, baby.
SPEAKER_01Um there can be experiences which are helpful. Sure. But we need to weigh up our experiences and say does this agree with what scripture shows us?
SPEAKER_02You know, yeah, exactly. So in in terms of what is what is the prime authority that stands over us and and tells us, you know, what to believe and how to live and um shapes our doctrine and morals, um, scripture has got to be in that pole position by itself. Um and and not, yeah, you know, because uh because I I guess you know, a c a traditional Catholic position is that the Church of God has given rise to the Word of God. And they would sort of say, well it's you know, it's the people of God have written scripture, obviously by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but you know, it was the council of of Nicaea that put together the canon, and and so the church has in some ways given rise to what we know of today as the scriptures. And Luther sort of flips that on his head and says, No, the scriptures produce the church. The church doesn't produce the word of God, the word of God produces the church. The church is the called out ones, that's what the ecclesia means. It's the it's the the the community of those who are called out to listen to the scriptures, so it's always the scriptures that are producing um uh the the church. And so the church must sit under authority, uh under the authority of the scriptures. Um so the Catholic Church was saying that it's the church of God that gives rise to the word of God. Actually, Luther was saying no, the word of God gives rise to the church of God. But in in even in Luther's world, it's not like me and my Bible. It's not just, you know, I still read the Bible in community with other people, and we still, you know, Ephesians 4, we've got word teachers who are given to us to help us understand the scriptures, and we need one another, and tradition at its best is just a way of me sitting down with other dead guys who are really good Bible teachers and and learning from Calvin and Augustine, etc. Um how to, you know, and and reason at its best is, you know, is is thinking carefully in scriptural categories about the scriptures. Um but it's it's gotta be the scriptures that that come first and have that that supreme authority. And that's really where it comes, you know, it came to at the the the diet of vorms, not the diet of worms.
SPEAKER_00I can press the water.
SPEAKER_02Would you like the octopus? Alright, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Which one's the octopus? Which one's the octopus? There you go. Okay. So in 1521, Luther is summoned to the Diet of Worms, not the Diet of Worms. That's how it's written, but it's pronounced the Diet of Worms. And uh there he is, and he's told to recant um of all his works. If you can imagine the, you know, the table piled high with his books, and you know, will you recant of all these things? And uh and famously he says, Look, unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other. My conscience is captive to the word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. And there he is, you know, standing against the emperor and the pope, like every the whole world is against him. And he's like, Well, yeah, but the word of God says different, so jog on. He didn't actually say here I stand, I can do no other. I think he probably did say jog on though. Absolutely. Without doubt. Jog on. Isn't Schwarzenegger uh Christian? Yeah, yeah. That's basically yeah, but but isn't that amazing, like standing against uh yeah, kind of the whole world and saying, Yeah, but the Bible says different guys. And that language of saying, I'm captive to the word of God actually made Luther the freest thinker of his day. It's it's it's stunning to think in th those terms, but but actually Luther, um, yeah, he was the freest thinker. He he got us out of medieval you know the medieval period. Like really, he did. Well, how did he do it? Well, he was a slave to the Bible. And it's just it's just that choice. You're either a slave to the Bible or you're a slave to your culture. And Luther kind of picked wisely, I guess. He says, I'm not gonna be a slave to my culture, I'm gonna be a slave to the Bible. And that made him a free man, a dangerous man, but a free man in his own time. And I just wonder if that's true for us, that actually there are all sorts of cultural norms that we're surrounded by that we're actually all slaves to. Um but here's the opportunity become captive to the word of God, and you'll become a free man or woman, a dangerous man or woman, but a free man or woman. You know, I just I just wonder if if there are examples of of that today.
SPEAKER_01Uh of of you know, culture dictating one thing, and us standing on the Bible and saying, No, but scripture says, Yeah, I mean I I guess um we we were talking earlier about you know, actually there are in the world, even even right now in the world, there are obviously lots of different cultures. Right. And so I mean d do we just say therefore if a cult is saying it, it's right. Yeah well actually no, because uh cultures today across the world, just today, not looking back, not even including back across history, but they're they're contradictory with each other. So, you know, we talked about actually here in the in the West, you know, biblical, you know, scriptural views on uh things like forgiveness and love. Right. People love it. It's very Western kind of yay, we like this stuff. Um but biblical views on sexuality and kind of sexual morality um are very unpopular in the West. But that if you go to other countries, yeah, actually the stuff about sexual morality, they go, Oh yeah, this is great. And then you start talking about forgiveness, and they're like, Oh no, actually, because it's all about honour and you know family honour and revenge. The law and justice. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's it's somewhat short-sighted of certain wings of Christianity to start saying culture has changed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And we need the Bible to shift with us. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And I mean I mean you mean that white people have changed. And that now we need to believe what white people think. Exactly. But it is this minority in the West today. Yeah, you know, even you know, the majority of the world thinks different. I mean, the sexual morality thing is a big thing at the moment, isn't it, in the church? The majority of the world today thinks the Western view of sexuality is just going completely bonkers. Right. So it's a minority view even today. Yeah. And if you were to compare it in the whole of history, it's an even smaller minority view. But yet somehow today with the enlightened, the Bible needs to catch up with the enlightened ones here in the West now. But I mean, remember my brother-in-law saying people often say, Oh, you know, the Bible's very of its time, you know, like you know, of its day. And of course, and that's what people say, culture's changed. But of course, when it was written, of course there are cultural things, but it's actually very against its own culture, you know, particularly its sexual morality, it was completely against its culture. Like you know, didn't they didn't they say, like, you know, women a woman for children, a man for a boy no a woman for necessity, a boy for pleasure, and a goat for ecstasy. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02You know, so the Bible's always out of time.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, it's never fitted into it its culture. And I remember hearing Andrew Wilson speak on it and say, you know, if if we say God is unchanging and has an unchanging morality and view, it is obvious that at some point in different ways it is gonna rub up against every single culture in the world, you know. So you cannot just say culture has changed. Right. Well indeed it has.
SPEAKER_02But here and here's and here's your opportunity to actually be a free thinker and to not just be a cork on the tide of you know popular opinion that's gonna be different in, you know. I mean the the opinions you know, Tim Keller's always saying this, you you know, the opinions of your great grandparents would embarrass you right now. You know, you would listen to them and probably you would judge them according to you know the the holy trinity today of sex no gender, race, and sexuality would be the would be the three things that you know we are so righteous on, and and we probably would, you know. Anyone would, a Christian would look back at things that people said and says, a little bit sexist, I'm probably racist, yeah. You know. But you know, what are you what are your great grandkids going to say about you and your things? And and honestly, you you think you have arrived, you are the Messiah, you're the one you've been waiting for. But we have Glenn, of course we have. We've come to us. You know, so what's the your only chance is is maybe maybe there is this transcendent word that crashes into culture and says something different. And if we enslave ourselves to it, right, if we're captive to the word of God, we can become free in the culture. Dangerous, but free. And I just wonder whether we can now say to a culture that in in the wake of Harvey Weinstein, and just sort of say, hang on, you know, he was preaching to us very powerfully through his films. He was shaping culture, and we've, you know, we've ripped the whirlwind in terms of the sort of culture that we have that you know, we've got a culture that has. elected you know to the most powerful office in in in the world a man who boasted about sexual you know assaults and and and just spoke about it you know not I'm not saying that you know he actually did anything but you know very famously that locker room talk and and and yet nobody thought that that was disqualifying you know behavior for a for a potential president and we've ended up with this culture that is like this is it possible that that of all the things that we might get wrong sex might be one of them like is it just even consider that possibly you know let's let's let's imagine that we are not infallible as a culture okay let's guess okay if you don't have the Bible let's just guess at where we might go wrong on things and could it possibly be that we've gotten sex wrong? Maybe well the Bible says we have but maybe there's good news maybe there's a sexual ethic here and you know I don't want to bang on about sex there's all sorts of stuff that the Bible you know contradicts the culture on. But this is our chance this is our chance to actually be free dangerous but free as we're captive to the word of God we become freed in the world um to bring a very different message. Um so yeah just a just a word to to let's let's cling on to the Bible and the fact that it runs against the grain of the culture. You go, yeah, well so what you know jog on culture. Absolutely here I stand here I stand. Um now we've got we've got to just before we finish um think about this second aspect of of scripture in the Reformation because in one sense scripture birthed the Reformation so um you know scripture scripture made us have a Reformation but in what in what sense does the Reformation shape the way that we read scripture? What is it the how is it that a Reformational person um picks up the Bible of a morning? Um how sh how should a dis a descendant of Luther kind of you know pick up and read the Bible um post-Reformation do you think?
SPEAKER_01So we touched upon it a bit in in the Scripture alone video as we thought, you know, you you wake up in the morning, you look at your Bible, your Bible looks at you. How do you feel about your Bible? You know, as we open it up do we expect the Bible just to give us a lecture? So you know we expected to open it up and just kind of get a bit of a s a scolding and a telling off or or even on a more positive note just to be given some instructions on how to do things. And actually we're saying no that's not what the Bible is the Bible is an announcement of good news it's it and it's it's a herald of victory just like when David defeats Goliath actually the the the you know the cry goes out of the the victory that's happened it's an announcement that David has won. Goliath is defeated the enemy is defeated the the people you know David has the victory and therefore the people have the victory and actually as we read our Bibles we're being reminded of just that that Christ has the victory and therefore we have the victory even if day by day sometimes it may not feel right you may not feel very victorious.
SPEAKER_02Right, right right and I always I always go back to the the lovely little book of Luther's and if you can tr you can track it down online and it's literally like three pages long. So if someone asks you have you read any Luther and the book it's it's called a brief exhortation in what to look for and expect in the gospels and the title's almost longer than the book but uh Luther he makes this great thing he says before we see Christ as our example we must see him as God's gift to us. And I I just think that's that's that's how that's how a Protestant that's how an evangelical reads the gospels you know reads the Bible as Christ has been given to us to do it for us to live our life to die our death to rise up again and to and to be God's God's present to us who has achieved it all on our behalf and is given to us for for free. So I think that's that's gotta be a reformational way of of reading the Bible which again you know before Luther had his breakthrough on Romans chapter one he was reading a lot of Bible. In fact he was he was doctor of Bible he was like a professor he was a professor of Old Testament you know teaching the scriptures um so it's very possible to in one sense love the Bible or very very possible to be a doctor of the Bible and not really get it. True Reformation happens though when you see Christ not really as your um just your example but as your champion. So therefore let us beat importunately upon Scripture and give heed to the context and meditate on it day and night and be captive to the Word of God because through it we can be born again and enter paradise through open gates and preach this good news to the world. But thank you very much Paul for uh being with us and uh next week we're gonna think about uh glory alone God's glory alone and uh that video is coming out on Reformation Day itself October the 31st so do stay tuned to that uh speak Life UK on Facebook do like our page there check out our videos do share them online and do subscribe to the Evangelist podcast like us and uh if you give a little share uh we'd really really appreciate that's the way that this thing spreads and and gets into the world so thank you so much for uh spending some time with us and we'll see you next week bye bye bye bye now