This week on the Evangelist Podcast, Faith Alone. The Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Encouragement to speak life to a needy world.
SPEAKER_00With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley. Welcome to the Evangelist Podcast. We are in a series looking at all you need. All you need in life. Grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, scripture alone. And and welcome everybody to my daughter, Ruby Scrivener. This is her debut on the Evangelist Podcast. Two and a half years old. She's uh with an iPad in the corner. Because I forgot that I was on it. Yeah, no, we're doing it now. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that's that's why you're gonna be quiet as a mouse. Um and this is all my bad because I forgot that I was on childcare duties. Uh but for me, childcare duties means uh here, Ruby, have an iPad. And uh so she will just be enjoying fun with dinosaurs in the corner as uh Paul Feezy and myself speak about uh faith alone. Hello, Paul. Hello. I was thinking I might just go do the dinosaurs actually. It looks quite fun, doesn't it? Yeah. Problem with um Ruby, she keeps on feeding the Tyrannosaurus Rex with the leaves, and the Tyrannosaurus Rex does not like the leaves. No. He wants the meat, doesn't he? Yeah, he wants the red meat. Yeah, yeah, she's looking chastened now. Um great! Well, welcome everybody to uh this podcast. We hope you've been enjoying our series, and if you haven't, uh there are well over 170 uh podcasts in the back catalogue that you can have a look at. We're trying to equip people in uh how to know the faith and how to share the faith with friends, neighbours, and anyone you come across, really. So we'll be thinking about these five uh great alone statements from the Reformation and not only what they meant historically, uh, but also what they mean for us today in our hearts and also uh what it means in our witness to people. If we are faith alone people, how will that shape the kind of evangelism that we do? Um but uh Paul, do you want to just kind of uh we've been thinking about this uh series uh as regards David and Goliath and how David and Goliath can sort of be uh a window, a prism through which we view the five great alone statements of the Reformation. Can you take it take us through uh the gospel of faith alone according to David and Goliath?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well we've so we've already started off looking, haven't haven't we, at the two kind of uh of the solas. Solar meaning uh alone. Yes, meaning alone. In the in Latin. In the Latin there, and we so we've seen Christ alone and grace alone, and we've seen how actually the story of David and Goliath points us to those truths. So the idea that God saves through his Christ. Uh so is the story of David and Goliath, it really is just the work, isn't it, of of David i in that uh in that story. It is not the work of those the Israelite soldiers or anyone else. So we see that it is God who's bringing the victory through his his champion, if you want, yeah, the Christ, the Christ figure of David, and we've kind of pointed forward therefore to Jesus. And then we've been thinking about grace alone and how actually, again, similar to what we've just been saying, that it is it all comes from God, it's not through through anything the Israelites do. We talked in one of the videos, didn't we, about um, you know, it wouldn't have mattered if they were there cheering on David, saying, Go David, or whether they were just calling him a loser and booing him. Um all those things. Uh because you're doing very well, Paul. It all came I've got two kids, you know that all it all comes from outside, doesn't it? And it's been helpful for us to think when we've been thinking about grace, um to define it as uh grace is God's gift of Jesus. Yes. Uh Jesus himself. Yeah, rather than the thing, the grace aid, you know, from the video there. You know, it's not the thing God gives us to pep us up, to enable us to go and save ourselves. It is the gift of the one who saves.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so that brings us to faith alone. And I guess just as grace is not a thing that God gives us, faith is not a thing that we give back to God. Uh faith, as we're gonna see, is receiving Christ. Yeah. Um taking the gift of Jesus Himself. So we'll be yeah, we'll be thinking about what faith is and what faith isn't as we go along. And I mean, are there any scriptures that sort of come to mind for you, Paul, as you start thinking about faith alone?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well I guess one of the big ones that and we we mention it in the in the video comes from Ephesians 2, and I mean the whole of Ephesians 2, 1 to 10 is a is a really helpful section, I find. Um, but particularly verses 8 and 9, you know, for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it's the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one uh may boast. And and I guess the the the the reason that's so helpful is that often faith is contrasted uh or or put alongside works, isn't it? Um so y you know, are we saved by our works or are we saved by by faith? Or is it a combination of the two and all those things? And we unpack that a little bit in the in in the video. I mean, I I think as well, uh sometimes when I've kind of spoken on some of these verses, I think those earlier verses are really helpful. The idea that we're we're dead in sin. Versus one to three. Yeah, versus one to three, and and then we're made alive, and we touched upon that in the grace alone video. But actually, I think those verses really help us even even before Paul talks about you know being saved by grace through faith, not by works, the idea that we're dead and made alive is a really helpful thing in showing that it's not about works. Uh what I've said a few times when I've spoken on this is when you start thinking it in those terms of being dead, you realise how how silly the idea of thinking good works is, you know, that you could use good works to save yourself might be. Yeah. I did it. You can't be I did it. It's not by works though. Do it. It's not by works. Yeah. So you're dead. I mean, you can't say, Oh yeah, I'm a little bit dead. Right. You know, people sometimes say, Oh, I'm not that bad. Uh you know, I do some good things, I'm I do a few things wrong, I'm not perfect, but I'm generally okay. But you would never say, Oh yeah, well I'm I'm a little bit dead, but I'm mostly mostly alive. You know, I mean you're either dead or you're alive. And so that that kind of black and whiteness of being dead or alive, right? I think is helpful in showing us it's not about what you can do. And we as we touched on with Grace, if you're dead, you can't bring yourself back.
SPEAKER_00So you need life to come to you from outside yourself. Absolutely. So to say, why can't my work save me is like saying why can't an aspirin raise the dead. You're like, you know, aspirin's good. Aspirin has its place. Yep. But yeah, it's not gonna raise the dead. So let's let's think about some things that that faith isn't. You did you did really well. Well done, Ruby. Um what what sort of things faith isn't? And I think one thing that I see all the time is people thinking of faith as a thing. Uh we sort of lampooned it in the video, and we keep talking about these videos. If you haven't checked out uh All You Need videos, then uh do subscribe to our YouTube uh channel. Get on it. Where have you been? Uh search for our Facebook page there. And uh we sort of lampooned this idea of faith being a thing with a little sketch that we did queuing up at the Pearly Gates, and there is Paul coming to the front of the queue, and I'm an angel, and and Andy um he is uh also in the queue. And I and I basically say, you know, well, Paul, you've lived a wonderful life of tireless service, and you know, sacrificing both your kidneys for somebody else was a lovely gesture. But um I'm afraid it was Andy who actually formulated a correct theology. So um Andy, in you go to heaven, and Paul take it up with management downstairs. And it's sort of it's kind of making ridiculous this idea that faith could be like this mental ascent that you have to a number of different propositions. And as though God is really just looking for people to get their theology straight. And that's what faith is. As long as you got your theology straight, it doesn't, you know. But if you don't have your theology straight, it doesn't matter how good you are, doesn't matter how many good deeds you do, it's down, you know, it's hell for you. But if you get your theology straight, it doesn't matter how bad you are, it's heaven for you. And I I just think that kind of thinks of faith as a thing that we offer to God. Rather than I just I just wonder if like we could have done a sketch, couldn't we, in which both you and Andy are in the queue and you've got no hope of heaven whatsoever, and Jesus just steps forward and says, It's okay, he's with me. You know. I think that's that's kind of what faith is. And it's it's it's it's not to do with a thing that you formulate. It's just it's just describing your union with Jesus. And if you're with Jesus, you're in, you know. I don't know which one it is. Why don't you go for this one?
SPEAKER_02And I guess also I mean what we sometimes do is we can say, Oh, of course we're not saved by our works, we're saved by faith, and faith just becomes like another work. Right. So we kind of kind of go, Oh no, over here is my pile of my pile of good works, and I know that my pile of good works is never gonna be big enough, could never save me. Yes. And actually we just kind of replace it with a pile of faith. Yes. You know, I remember someone, uh, you know, uh a lady from our church on Facebook saying something like, I I just hope that I'll have been found to have had enough faith. Yeah, right. And I mean that's no different saying, I just hope that I'll have done enough good things. It's like, well have you know, again, it's just a a bar type thing, isn't it? Like I've got to hit that level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and it's just it just happens to be an internal bar of mental ascent rather than an external bar of good works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But that's not right.
SPEAKER_02That's not what faith is. No. And I think as well, I mean, th that notion, I mean, maybe veering into slightly different territory, but that the notion of, you know, have I had enough faith? Yeah. I mean, I think I may I can't remember whether I said it to her at the time, but use the illustration of when you do those kind of trust exercises and you fall backwards, you know. Actually, the the ability for the person to catch you is not is not based at all on how much you trust that they will do it. You might fall backwards thinking, I'm 100% sure this person's gonna catch me because they're massive and they're really strong. You might fall backwards thinking, Well, I think they might do it. And the point is you trusted enough to go to that person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Once you're there, um it's about the strength of the other person.
SPEAKER_02And I mean of course because of course uh everybody has it doubts at times and things. Um but of course, you know, if you've you're trusting, it's not really about you drumming up the trust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's about the person you're trusting in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Rory Shiner, who's written a great little book on Union with Christ called One Forever, he gives this illustration of uh plane travel. He says, you know, if you want to catch a a flight to Perth, he's from Perth, you know, then you know, you you get into the plane, and then once you're in the plane, whatever happens to the plane happens to you. And it doesn't like you could be the most nervous flyer in the world, and you're you know, going up and down in the aisle and wondering, is the captain gonna make it? I d you know, I heard a bit of doubt in his voice. I'm not really sure about this, you know. And what's gonna happen in the case of a non-traditional landing, and am I gonna be a you know, and next to you there's this woman and she's been on a million flights before, and she doesn't even listen to the safety precautions, and she drinks two glasses of red wine and a couple of sleeping pills, and she's out cold. And then you ask the question, you know, who makes it to Perth? The person who was very nervous or the person who completely trusted well you both do. Exactly. Because it's not about the uh the amount of faith that you have in the pilot. If you're in the plane, what happens to the plane happens to you, you know. Exactly. Exactly. So what is faith? So faith is not a thing, it's not as though you know, we're saved by faith and not by works because God really likes internal mental ascent and he doesn't like external acts of love. That's ridiculous. Um so faith is not a thing that you drum up within yourself. Faith is what is it positively?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's receiving a person, isn't it? And we touch upon this in our in our video drawing on the the the illustration that Luther uses, which I assume I don't know if that was him originally.
SPEAKER_00Um I think Song of Songs, you know, because he's constantly quoting Song of Songs in The Freedom of the Christian, which was like a massively important book in 1520, but uh that's that's where he gives it a real airing. Right.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so we're really just picking up on that image then that's um the image there of the the prince marrying the pauper and uh receiving that person in a marriage, you know, it's it's it's not, is it, about uh just receiving the benefits of it, you know, just like marrying for money. For money, yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes we sometimes we do fall into that trap, don't we, as Christians? Like the goal is the goal is forgiveness and salvation, eternal life, that kind of thing. Exactly. But when you put it in that marriage illustration, you know, that would be like someone marrying and just saying, Well, my goal is to get this person's money. Actually, the goal is to be with the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that's what faith is, isn't it? It's receiving that person. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um like John 1, I always what's that love? Someone put a star there, didn't they? I think you put a star there. Yeah. I think John 1 12 is where I always go on faith, is you know, to those who received Jesus, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. And you just think John is not talking about two different things. He's not talking about, you know, you receive Jesus and you believe in his name. It's like that's the same thing, it's parallel. So believing in Jesus is receiving Jesus. And when you have Jesus, you have all his benefits, yeah, in that in that marriage union. So what about okay, so what about people say, okay, you Protestants, you're all into your faith alone type stuff. I've read James chapter two. Yes. And James chapter two, he seems to say that we're not saved by faith alone. Um, you know, you have faith without deeds, I'll show you my faith by my deeds. Um what do you what do you think is going on in James 2? Is he contradicting Paul? Is he saying something different to Paul? Is he saying something different to the reformers? What's going on?
SPEAKER_02Um well I um I I don't think James is contradicting Paul at all. I think I think if you on a at a surface level when you read it, it would be easy to take it that way. Um but I think James, what James is is saying, isn't he, that's that faith that has no works. Well he's saying that faith and works are tied up together. And this is why I think actually if if people go and see our the video we've done and we use those maths kind of equations, I think they're a very helpful way to illustrate this. So we s we start off for those who maybe haven't seen it, um go and see it. But um we start off by saying, you know, does works, you know, works equals justification, is that right? And we say, no, that's not right at all, because you know, we can't save ourselves by being good, and actually there's no there's no that doesn't even mention any kind of faith at all. Right. So we say, what about faith plus works, which is the kind of medieval view and very common in probably a lot of Christians even today, like just even in Protestant churches, you probably get a lot of this still. Um so you know, I gotta have faith, and then I've also got to be good. Um so then we we th we look at the idea of well, maybe it's faith plus works that you need the the two together, and you know, it's the medieval church's view, it's it's probably quite a common view even amongst Christians today who are who are maybe confused on this issue a little bit. And we say, uh, no, that's that's not right. It's not faith plus works. You know, Paul says we've looked at Ephesians 2 already, haven't we, that it's not by works. Um so we say, okay, what about faith? Is it faith equals justification? Right. You know, have faith and you are justified. And people kind of go, Oh, if you're talking about faith alone, surely that's what you mean. Yeah, right. Um and actually that's not really what Luther meant. Uh strictly, it's almost there, it's just not quite complete. And they'll go to things like James and they'll say, Look, James says, look, faith alone, you know, no one is saved by faith alone. It's literally says in James, you're not saved by faith alone. Yeah. Which, you know, seems like quite a killer blow in the other direction. But actually, uh, when we then come to look at our what we said was our kind of the conclusion we came to, actually, the the real equation to use those math sayings is is faith equals justification plus works. Yeah. So actually, faith saves us, it justifies us, and then that always produces works. Right. And I think that's exactly what James is talking about. He's not saying no, you need he's not saying you need faith plus works hand in hand to save yourself. Right. And if you don't have works, you have no you're not saved. I think he's saying exactly what Paul is saying is that of course faith saves you, but a real faith always produces works. And if you if you're going around saying you have faith, but you haven't got any works, then it's no it's no faith at all. Yeah, yeah. It's a phony faith.
SPEAKER_00Which is why it's interesting that James says, can such faith save you? Absolutely. What's the kind of faith? And you know, there is demonic faith. There's a faith that the devil has, or you know, I believe correct theology, you know, which gets gets us back to that you know the cue for heaven. I've got correct theology. Is that what gets you? No, no, no. Saving faith is receiving Christ in this trusting, loving relationship, which you're in by faith alone, but it always leads to fruit.
SPEAKER_02And if you go back to the the the idea of us being dead, I mean, how could a dead person do any good works before they were made alive? Right. You know, they you have to be made alive in order to then do the works.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. So that's a good illustration, yeah. You're you're dead and you're made alive by faith, and it leads to works. Or the marriage illustration, you bring nothing to the the wedding with the prince. You you bring only your debts. But now in relationship with him, you start bearing fruit for life. Or another illustration is you know, Jesus is always talking about the two kinds of trees that we are, you know, and a bad bad tree produces bad fruit, a good tree produces good fruit. Now, a bad tree does not become a good tree by stapling good fruit onto it. You know, you've got to be made into a good tree by faith alone.
SPEAKER_02But that always leads to fruitful, fruitful living, works, that kind of thing. Yeah, and it's not an overnight thing, isn't it? Because I know some people would hear that and say, okay, faith justifies you know, faith equals justification plus works, and they'll start going, Oh, but have I got enough is my fruit really there? You know, they'll they'll say, Oh, I'm good sometimes, but I keep stuffing up. And you know, actually I think the marriage illustration is quite a useful one there. I mean, I've often used the you know, will and Kate type illustration that you know she was a commoner, and as soon as she said, I will, and he said, I will, they were married, so she's in her status has changed. She's now royalty, she's part of the royal family. But in terms of her state at that point, you know, she's probably still got a lot to learn about what it means to actually live like a royal royalty. She probably I always say, you know, you imagine then they go and sit down at the wedding breakfast, and there's hundreds of knives and forks and you know, things for lobsters and all kinds of bits. I know it's really hard, you know, feel for her. Um and you know, she probably looks at that and goes, I I don't know how to l live in this way of life. But over time, as you know, as she is part of that family, she grows more like that family. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Um I think that's the illustration that James actually uses in in James 2. Well no well, that that's the concept that he uses when he starts mentioning Abraham. So from verse 21, um, you know, he he mentions you know the famous verse in Genesis 15, uh Abraham believed the Lord and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Yeah, absolutely, Abraham was justified by faith alone in Genesis 15, but his justification was proved, his justification was proved in Genesis chapter 22, when he righteously offered Isaac. And so, yeah, that kind of faith did lead to seven chapters later a righteous kind of life. But actually, in between, you know, the very next chapter after he's justified by faith alone in Genesis 16, um, you know, it's very faithless, you know, I'm gonna go and sleep with my maid in order to produce a son by the by the flesh. And um so you know, Abraham is a totally mixed bag. But the faith that saves him, the the faith alone that saves him in Genesis 15 is never alone. It leads to Genesis 22. Mr. Maker. Mr. Maker.
SPEAKER_02Mr. Maker.
SPEAKER_00Oh, is that is that what she wants? Is that Mr. Maker? Have you start finished reading this story? Yeah. Is that Mr. Maker?
SPEAKER_02Is that is that is he the one who makes all the art?
SPEAKER_00D I Derek helping Derek.
SPEAKER_02Mr. Maker does all the art, doesn't he? Does he do minute make? One minute make.
SPEAKER_00Plus, we need we need to have space for the thief on the cross, right? You know. You know, Luke 23. Remember me when you come into your kingdom, today you'll be with me in paradise. You know, he doesn't he doesn't have time to get down from the cross and help old Granny's across the road.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and I mean that that for me, that the the thief on the cross is one of the most powerful examples of grace you know, we see. I mean, uh obviously there's l lots of great ones, but it is it just seems so clear. Yeah, here's someone who has clearly lived a very bad life to be in the position he's in and has no opportunity to make up for it in any way, to redeem himself, not even to, you know it receive like means of grace, right? Baptism or communion, or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00Although when the spear goes into Jesus' side, water comes out, right? So maybe he's getting baptized in that way. See, that's an out that's an argument I've heard. There you go. I'll I'll just my laughter says it. Yeah. Um But yeah, by faith alone, just I mean that really is just looking to Christ, isn't it? Just look to Christ, say remember me.
SPEAKER_02Remember me, yeah. That's exactly it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00So by faith alone he is saved. So I I hope we've had a good go at saying Paul and James are not contradicting each other. You know, because Paul also says Ephesians 2 verse 10 we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um so it seems to be completely the same thing. Yeah, Genesis 15, you're saved by faith. Genesis 22, you're created to do good works.
SPEAKER_02And I I think people often, you know, when people say, Oh, when you say you're saved by faith, it leaves new room for works, and you know, I think it it's like the Romans 6 stuff, isn't it? It's it's it's a bit of an excuse, isn't it? Some people use it saying, Oh, I don't need to be good. Some people do use that, but I mean, like James says, that's not real faith. Because you know, the argument in Romans 6 is sort of, you know, God likes forgiving, I like sinning. So let's all just carry on and everyone's a winner. Right. Um and Paul's like, uh no, basically, you're dead to sin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um which in the illustration would be like, you know, I like being a prostitute, and Christ likes continually knocking on the door of the brothel like you know, like Hosea does to God back in the Old Testament. Like, well, no, I d I'm not sure you actually love your husband. Yeah, right? In that stage. Pretty much, yeah. Like a a million times doing that.
SPEAKER_02Well You'd have your doubts, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you'd have your doubts about your faith. Yeah, yeah. Totally. So what does this mean in our evangelism? So, okay, we're signed up believers in faith alone. As we've thought about what faith isn't and what faith is, how does it help us to share the gospel with others if we believe that faith is is this kind of a thing?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think, you know, when you you know, imagine you you've you've you you have kind of shared something of of the gospel, you know, you know, maybe we you've read something of Jesus with the non-Christian. I mean the the end point you know, if you're kind of at a point where you're wanting to say, look, what do you think about this? In some ways, by that stage it doesn't look that much different to if you'd maybe set it up, you know, if you'd gone down the road that faith is a thing you drum up. But I think it's the fact you've already set it up slightly differently. So you've set it up as a receiving rather than and now you must do this. Yes. So we've talked uh a few times about how you know basically you just offer people Jesus. Right. You know, and and say, Do you want him? Yeah. And and it's not okay, so now you have to drum up the right intellectual ascent or the right prayer or whatever it is. Um you just kind of go, are you sitting there, you know, you say to people, are you sitting there going, hmm, I think I like Jesus. I like what I'm hearing, I think Jesus could be the one and Yeah, I'd be I I want this. I would say I will. Yeah, I would exactly I would say I will. And you just say, okay. Yeah. Have him then. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Receive him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and as you're doing that, you you can do a little bit of marriage prep, and you can sort of say, look, you know, as you receive him, you're receiving him as your lord. This I mean a totally new life.
SPEAKER_02You were dead, you're now alive, and now you know he's yeah, he calls the shots and he you know And it's and it's it's so different, isn't it, to setting it up kind of setting up the idea that you're entering into the kind of that kind of relationship, like a marriage relationship, is very different to setting it up as you know, by using the kind of analogy that we're all like the kings of our lives and we've got to take the crown off and give it to Jesus. Um and of course there's truth in that, but it's it's a very kind of anemic side, you know, one-sided thing of it. You know, and I I can't remember what song we were singing in church the other day, it just struck me and it said, you know, and I and claim the crown Yes, through Christ our own. Through Christ our own. And I was thinking, we this is the kind of thing we sing, and can it be, yeah, but yet, you know, we then we do we give these evangelistic talks where we say, take the crown off, give it to Jesus, and then we stand up and say, put the crown. Put the crown.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much evangelism is get off the throne. You're on the throne of your life, get off the throne. The Bible ends with get on the throne.
SPEAKER_02Come and join us on the throne. Yeah, you get on the throne, and actually it's a complete turnaround.
SPEAKER_00And so that's what I loved about doing like three through one, the the uh in the animation, and we we do a little clip of the animation in our latest face alone video, um, you've got the pauper and you've got the prince, and she's full of debts and he's full of riches, and he's got a crown on his head, right? And what you and sort of visually, what we represent is as the prin as the as the pauper comes to the prince, they swap and he gets all his debts and she gets all his riches, and he gives her his crown, and he takes her debts. You know, and and it and it felt almost transgressive to do this. It was like what she she puts on the crown? Well, yeah, she puts on the crown, and and what a different Christian life you're them you like preaching to people, participating in the divine nature and stuff.
SPEAKER_02And and also, I mean it it it just pushes it pushes against again that kind of idea that we we set up with the crown idea that that actually people are kind of these little rulers in their own right. Right. You know, I think I think it was Martin Luther who said something like you know, we're beasts ridden either by Christ or by the devil. Yeah, yeah. You know, and actually so saying it treat speaking to people as if we're these autonomous people who are ruling our own lives actually is giving people too much credit.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Actually, it is a there's a much darker thing saying, Yeah, well, if you're not under Christ, you're under the devil, and you're not in control, you're enslaved.
SPEAKER_00You're enslaved.
SPEAKER_02And you know, you're a captive and you need to be set from the bondage of the will. Exactly. Um and that's a very different angle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And now, having been a slave, now be a princess. You know, it's it's let now put on the crown, now climb onto the throne. And I can I be a bit controversial here? Um would you? Would you can I because I just wonder whether certainly in the circles that I've grown up in, a lot of the evangelism that we do has been road tested on 14-year-old public schoolboys. Right. And and I love the work of, you know, these camps that are particularly aimed at, you know, independent schoolboys and girls who are going to rule, you know, they're gonna be the the captains of industry and they're gonna be the top of the civil service and they're going to Oxbridge and they're going to rule the world, and it's a strategic ministry, and I love the stuff that they do, and they're they're very biblical and all that sort of stuff. But we sort of a lot of our evangelistic methods and preaching methods um have been kind of have come out of preaching to a very capable 13-year-old boy and telling him, You probably think you're gonna rule the world, don't you? You know, you probably think you're on top of the world and you're a king and your own, you know, you're your own little autonomous independent, you know, thing. And you know, and and absolutely you need to tell the boy from Eton, like, you need to knock him down a peg or two.
SPEAKER_01You need to knock down a peg or two.
SPEAKER_00And you need and you need to say, you know, you're dead in transgressions and sins and you're a child of wrath and and you know, stop being so independent, and you definitely need to do that. But then I wonder the gospel that we've kind of generated or or or we've got used to preaching in that kind of environment, you then c take it to the council estate and or you or you then take it to um Muslims, or you then take it to the drug addict, or you take it to the single mum who's you know, like like imagine you know, preaching this to the woman who has given herself again and again to unworthy men, right? And her problem is not that she's been ruling her life, her problem is that she's been continually like giving herself away to a thousand different men who are just unworthy of her. Like, what's the gospel to her? Or the meth head, whose problem is not that he's this independent go-getter, but his problem is that he continually gives himself away to addiction. Or the Muslim, you know, here's this refugee who's come over and he sends every last penny he earns back to Iran, back to the family, and he's totally not living for himself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, how do we how do we like convict them of sin? Um and I think at that stage we we need to say that our big problem is not that we are independent kings. Our big problem is that we are dead and dominated and damned.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and I always found something kind of I I struggled for a while to put my finger on what I struggled with on that that kind of angle. And I suppose I could only say that it's it it's kind of coldly coldly logical. So you you can you can know you can say look, we're you know, rebelling against God and you've got the crown on and this is where it leads, and you take it off and give it back, and etc. etc. And you kind of go, okay, this all makes sense, it's a illogical. But I never came away from those things thinking it is uh you didn't really feel a warmth from God on it. You know, but and actually when you when you think about this this idea of a relationship, you know, this marriage relationship, I mean, falling in love with someone is not really logical. You know, it's it's not a kind of that's just not how it works, is it? It just kind of happens and it and it's not just I mean well obviously for some people it is it is probably like a business arrangement, but but um but you know that at least you know many of us would say of course it's not like that, it's not like a business arrangement. It you're you're you're in a relationship for each other and you love the other person, they love you, and and there is that kind of warmth there which doesn't come across so much in that other side. Not also I suppose the the way that kind of crown thing frames it is always that everybody's rebelling and basically stop, stop rebelling. And you already yeah, and you've you've you've touched upon the fact that that doesn't hit everyone. But I mean the one I've said a few times when I've been at certain camps and I said, Look, we've we're standing up and saying everybody's rebelling, but what about the kid who who comes from a church and is a massive legalist who actually is sitting there going, I'm not rebelling against God, I'm I'm doing really good. Yeah. I'm trying to obey everything. And and they probably sit through those talks and hear, you know, Well, I'm not rebelling. Right. You know, you're not talking about me here. And the people turn around and say, Oh, but of course they are rebelling in no and you're like, Yeah, but I mean that's not they're not gonna hear that. You're not gonna work through that logic in their head, go, Oh well, actually I am rebelling in a different kind of way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know. That's why Tim Keller says, you know, the problem is not that there are two ways to live, there are three ways to live. Right?
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00So there's because there's two ways of of getting it wrong.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00There's the younger brother way of getting it wrong, um, but then there's the older brother way of getting it wrong as well. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think I've I've found it far more helpful in my preaching to to when I'm talking about sin to try and talk as much as I can about being rather than behaviour. Right. You know, because yeah, you know, because behaviour the behaviour thing, I mean, you see it sometimes on the videos that come over from uh other other nations that I won't name that we love. Yeah. Um where you know they're in the street saying, you know, have you do you ever s you know, have you ever stolen anything? You've never stolen a pencil from work, and you're like, ah yes, you've broken the rules, haven't you? Right.
SPEAKER_00Um There would be a way of doing that, but then Yeah. So your little examples of theft diagnose a deeper problem to your being, that you're a thief at heart, or you know, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02Which is why actually when when I kind of initially came across kind of your stuff, I think when you were you're in the process, I think you're 321 hadn't launched yet, because most of your blog's finished with the if it's tantalizing only. And I think there you talk about uh I think there was three S's, but I think you've changed quite what you had, wasn't it? Like um I've forgotten them myself now. Okay. So there was like selfishness, stuff-ups, and um slavery, slavery, self-justification, stuff. So that yeah, that's it. And I think you because I think you started with those three and then maybe you've expanded it slightly like suspicion and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I found that really helpful, and actually I and and particularly like phrases you used, like when when someone had done something and they say, I don't know what came over me, yeah. And you say, Well, nothing came over you, it came out of you. Right. Um and and actually when I've had the opportunity to kind of preach on things like that, it it's the kind of thing that regardless of everybody's experience of you know, are they breaking certain rules? Right, we can all identify with things inside us. I think if we if we sit there and honest with ourselves, we go, Yeah, there are things I wouldn't want people to know inside me, things I've done or said. There is, you know, sometimes I do scare myself with the things I say to people, the way I hurt somebody, you know, I think, where did that come from? And what what must I honestly be like if that's come out of me? Right. Yeah. And I think everybody can identify with that. Yeah. Whereas if you just start saying, These are bad things and you're doing them, some people go, I don't think they're bad things.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I I got the I got the S's, however many of them up there were from Genesis three, because you you start with Adam and Eve, they're suspicious of God they feel like, well, maybe the maybe the forbidden fruit's the best one, you know. So suspicious of God and then selfishness, they grab at it, and then instantly it's slavery. Because it's it's it's really funny, you know, Satan promises that their eyes will be opened and they will see, and like when their eyes are opened, all that they see is that they're naked, you know. And it's kind of it's that's the human condition. You think the next thing you're gonna get, your eyes will be opened, yeah, and it never works.
SPEAKER_02Keeping up with the Joneses. I think you again in your 3D1 stuff you talk about, you know, if if you're if you're if the little gods that you're slaves to, you know, if your god is your family, everyone better be healthy and well. Yeah, yeah. If it's money, you better not lose your job, yeah. All that kind of thing. All the killer stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Slavery, there's this idolatry. So was it self uh suspicion, selfishness, slavery, then it's self-justification because they played the blame game and all that kind of stuff. Which is interesting, like if that's a part of your definition of sin, it's really helpful in evangelism because quite often people will sort of say to me after I try and diagnose sin as deeply as possible, they say, No, I'm still righteous. You go, Well, how about self-justification?
SPEAKER_02And and also, I mean, I think it's so helpful when you see passages, you know, it's John, is it's John 3 18, 17 or 18, isn't it, where it talks about people being condemned because they've not believed in the the name of Jesus, you know. Yeah. And actually, why are people condemned? Is it because they do wrong things? I get I think this is something you and I talked about very early on on Twitter at some point in a I and I think I remember saying to you, uh trying to clarify what you were saying, I was saying, are you saying that you know when Adam Adam sinned and was separated from God, but actually that for us we're in a different position that actually we are separated and therefore we sin, which is is is a different angle, isn't it? So the problem is the separation, yes, and that and the symptoms of the separation are our sin. Yes. And actually, if we just say to people, start behaving, right, you know, stop doing the bad things, it's like sticking plasters on chicken pox, you know, it makes no difference to the actual sticking mangoes on a bad tree, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. All that stuff.
SPEAKER_02So I think when you it's just helpful to have that all those kind of illustrations and those things, because it just makes it so much clearer than if you just start saying you're not hitting a moral standard.
SPEAKER_00And it's like yeah, so so if you if you follow, if you pull on the thread, okay, you know, maybe I do steal pencils from work, pull on pull on the thread down to the deepest, you know, heart level, yeah. The problem is with your being, and then if the problem is with my being, then I have no hope whatsoever except if I'm born again. You know. And I think until we diagnose people's problems, until their only solution is to be a completely new creature, you know, you're dead and you need to be made alive, you're a bad tree, you need to be made into a good tree. Um, then we're not able to preach faith and faith alone, because then it will always be what I do to make make a go of it. Um so yeah, so therefore, as a as a preacher, then what I'm doing is offering Christ to those who are dead who have nothing. And I'm trying to woo them, I'm trying to win them, I'm trying. I want them to love Jesus, not just not just to fear judge. I do want people to fear judgment, um, but I want them to to end up trusting the judge. You know, and if if our only angle is fear judgment, now submit, how are they going to trust the judge? You know? Whereas if I if I'm saying you are utterly damned and lost in yourself, and here is Christ, he loves you nonetheless, will you have him? Suddenly there's there might be a chance that they can actually, you know, fall in love with him and say, I will. That's the idea, anyway. Well, we have gone on and on, and Ruby has been wonderful. Um, thank you, Ruby, for uh very nicely sitting. You've been sitting very nicely, Ruby. Say hello, everybody. Are you gonna say hello? She's thrilled to be here on the Evangelist Podcast. Uh, as is Paul, thank you for being with us, Paul. No, it's been good. And uh next week we're gonna think about scripture. Scripture alone as we journey through this uh all you need series. Do check out uh the videos, Speak Life UK on YouTube, Speak Life UK on Facebook, and uh do subscribe here to the Evangelist Podcast. Uh like, share, and subscribe. Sharing is caring. Uh but uh thanks so much for listening, everybody, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye. Bye bye.