Today on the Evangelist Podcast, Grace Alone. The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world.
SPEAKER_00With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley. Welcome to our underground lair. Underneath the uh volcano deep in the heart of Milton Keynes. I don't know where we are, but um sharks with laser beams on their heads. Sharks with laser beams. And I am Glenn Scrivener, and with me is Paul Feasy. Hello, Paul. How are you doing? I'm good. Hello. Good to be here. Yeah, we are in this series on the alone statements of the Reformation, and uh quite often we fall into calling them the solars, which is interesting because uh a lot of the Reformation was was kind of founded on translating things out of Latin. And we decide to honour the legacy of the Reformation by sticking it back in Latin. Yeah, we just do what we can with it. Carpe Diem. Crux probat omnia. And Eastenders omnibus. So we have been in this series thinking about the alone statements. We started with Christ alone last week because it's in it's very important, it's vital, dear listener, it is vital to understand that both grace and faith are not things. They are describing Christ and who he is to the Christian. So, uh having looked at Christ alone last week, we saw that he is the only way to know God, he's the only way to be saved by God. Um now we're coming to uh this truth of grace alone. We are saved by Christ alone through grace alone. Um let's start, Paul, by thinking about some common misconceptions of grace and ways that people get grace wrong. What's what what are some common ways that people misunderstand grace?
SPEAKER_01So I guess one of the most common ways, um I think we we touched on it last week, uh, is that people view grace as a a thing, some kind of abstract concept out there. People think, you know, here's the there's a sense in which God gives us this thing, grace. Stuff. And then I suppose people have probably slightly different interpretations of what they might think of that, but he gives us the thing, and the thing enables us to do something to be better to to kind of justify ourselves or whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um it gives us the energy to be able to go and be a good Christian.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the it's the spiritual Red Bull is the thing, isn't it? Or if you're checking out our videos, uh the Gray Sage idea Grays Aid.
SPEAKER_00Now with thirty percent more salvation.
SPEAKER_01Um you'll have seen that and it's that it's that concept basically. I mean we obviously we we made a lot of fun of it um in that video, but the idea that God gives you the gray aid and you drink down the gray side, and therefore now you can you've got the get up and go to get out there and be super spiritual and make yourself holy and righteous in the eyes of the Lord.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um Yeah, yeah. Which is really close to the medieval view. And in in fact, you know, I mean the the great sort of very Catholic prayer, the Hail Mary, is Hail Mary full of grace. And and very much it's understood that Mary is full up with this thing. Look, look, look, look, look, look, look. It's grace, right? And you go you go to Mary and you go to the saints because they've got this thing.
SPEAKER_01And they turn the tap on for you. Yeah. You can drink it down.
SPEAKER_00The sacraments sort of switch on the taps so that you can get the grace down into you, and away you go. And like it was even this this view that that the church has the treasury of merit, okay? So there's there's been, you know, a number of saints who've done they've gone over and above, you know, the the the call of Christian, you know, duty and discipleship. They like they on the on the marks, they didn't just get a hundred, they got a hundred and ten. And so the church now has that, you know, that ten extra units of grace aid. Gotta go somewhere. And so, you know, and the the the Pope obviously has access to the Treasury of Merit. Oh, yeah. And uh and if you pay him enough money, you know, he can give you a f you know, a few shots of this grace, and it and it helps you. It helps you to save yourself, basically. It helps you to live the Christian life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00One way I I talk about it is it's it's like the cheese sandwich view of grace. Because we've been thinking about David and Goliath and how David and Goliath preaches to us the truths of the Reformation. Uh, we thought last week about how David is like Christ, and he is this miniature Christ who comes and wins the battle for us. David alone defeats Goliath, just as Christ alone wins our salvation. Um but you might remember in the story, the reason why David is at the front lines is his dad has told him to bring his brothers some cheese sandwiches. He comes with the bread and the cheese. And some people's view of grace is basically the father, you know, gets Jesus to bring you this stuff, the cheese sandwiches. The Jesus. The cheese. Jesus with cheese. Jesus with cheese. Um and he gives you the cheeses. And it's the idea then, like imagine the story went like that. Imagine the story went like that. David comes and he brings the cheese sandwiches, and the brothers go, Thanks, David, and you know, like Popeye, they suddenly become really strong because they've eaten their cheese sandwiches, and then they surge forward and defeat Goliath, right? And in that way, you could kind of think, oh, it's all by grace alone. It's uh, you know, it's it's all been the grace that's been brought to them by their Christ. Yep, sounds good. And he's empowered them. It's all by grace. It's all by grace. But no, in that story, that's not all by grace at all. It's by grace, but you know, through the muscles of David's brothers who have brought the victory. And this is the great problem with this medieval concept of grace being a thing that enables you to win the battle. Grace is not Jesus giving you the strength to live the Christian life. Grace alone, in the reformer sense, is Jesus saying, Glenn, get out of here. Sit down, I'm doing this. Yeah. And Christ coming and winning the victory for us in our name and on our behalf, even though we didn't like David. You know, it's it's so interesting in the story. You know, David's brothers, David is fighting for brothers who wish he wasn't there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00David is fighting for brothers who are like, Oh, you've just come to see the battle. Go home, you know. They're they're basically going, boo, you know. As day as David defeats Goliath, his brothers are going, boo! We hope you get torn limb from limb. He's doing it, he's doing it for idiots and people who are running away from Goliath. Because it's not about what his brothers are like, it's what David is like, and what's David like, he's gracious, you know. You know, that's grace.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I suppose that is that view is quite common. It's still a better view than some I've heard. Right. You know, because uh the other the other side I've heard actually using the David and Goliath story is look at David, he actually had all this experience himself. Oh yes. Go David, you know, just trust in yourself. I literally heard someone say that in a sermon, trust in the resources you have. You know, like what? That's that that's the message. That's the rest of David and Goliath, trust in the resources you have. Right. Because David had killed lions or whatever, and you know, people want to put you down, but you know, think back to the lions you've killed in your life and get up there and slay those giants, and I was just sitting there kind of head in my hands, like, oh word, what's going on?
SPEAKER_00So I mean So because that sermon is basically saying you are in David's sandals. Yeah, put yourself in David's sandals. That's what you mean.
SPEAKER_01That's even a step back from this kind of view, which is almost saying it's not about grace at all, it's just getting in there yourself. Yeah. Believe me, you can do it. Yeah. Um, and then the obviously what we've just been talking about is a kind of no, you can't do it yourself. You need the outside thing to come in, and then you need to get up there and use the muscle and you know, push it out. Yeah. Um but both of those were going, nope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not at all what it is, like you said. Jesus says, get out of the way, or David says, Get out of the way, everybody. I'm gonna do it. I'm getting in there.
SPEAKER_00And he doesn't even wear Saul's armour. You know, it's like Saul it's like, you know, he's not even gonna do it in the way of the flesh. He's gonna do it by way of the cross, you know, this completely different way. Which just yeah, everything that David does is a denial of human efforts, and everything that Christ does is a denial of the efforts of the flesh. But it's very interesting that you know we can you can we can use the language of of grace, and the medieval church could use the language of grace, and evangelicals can use the language of grace. But grace alone, that's that's really the the dividing line, isn't it? That it's it's it's genuinely nothing about me. It's all about Jesus. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that well, that's why it's probably helpful to use the definition of grace. I think you use it last week when we were talking about the the different videos. Grace is God's gift of Jesus Himself. It's not the here's the can of spiritual get up and go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But here is Jesus himself.
SPEAKER_00Right. John 3 16. God so loved the world that he gave some stuff called grace, so that if you can just grasp the thing called grace, then you'll be saved. Like, no. God so loved the world he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him, right, there's faith alone, shall not perish but have eternal life. But the the thing that grace is is not a thing, it's the person of Christ who's been given. And from God's objective side, the gift is called grace. From our subjective side, receiving him is called faith but we're not talking about a thing, we're talking about Jesus Himself. Which I think I mean that really helps in preaching, I think, that I I was um listening to an evangelistic talk uh this is years ago now, and uh and a vicar got up and closed out a whole week of mission, and um and basically he he wanted to do the the the call to repentance sort of talk. Close the deal, bring people to faith. Um and he just he just ended up giving about five or six illustrations of what it was all like, and they were all such abstract things. He was like, you know, I don't know how far you feel you are from God, but let's imagine that the line is over here. Cross the line. And then he would say, you know, um or perhaps think about it like this you know, God has written you the cheque of forgiveness of sins, and he's handed the check to you. Bank the check. And all this and and it's like, you know, could be because you can have the check, but the check is worth nothing until you bank the check. Have you banked the check of God's forgiveness? And I'm just sitting there just thinking, I don't know what he means. I'm pretty sure non-Christians don't know what he means, but I don't know what that means.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I suppose and I mean that kind of pushes down that into that territory of you know, uh what does it look like for that to actually happen? Right. It's like, well we'll just kind of pray the prayer. The prayer. The prayer. Here are the words. The words immortalised in scripture, nowhere. Um actually, I mean that is a it is quite a hard thing because I I remember hearing um I think it was Rebecca Manley Pippert talking about when she first led someone to to Jesus or or or how she didn't really lead someone to Jesus because they were like, Yeah, I want to do it, and she just said, I didn't know what to do. Right. Like she said at that point, she was just like, Well what's the what's the thing that you do? And it's so drummed into us that like well, you know, you do your you do your course, you do your talks, and then you give the opportunity to respond, and we're gonna put the words on the screen, and I'm gonna tell you what they are, and I'm gonna pray them, and maybe you want to pray it along quietly in your heart.
SPEAKER_00And we have to invent a sacrament. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We have to, like, because there's gotta be something there's gotta be a line to crop the side.
SPEAKER_00You gotta yeah, you've got to take the plunge somehow. Take the plunge, there's another one. Cause that that was that was because he came up with another another couple of illustrations. He was like, you know, and he talked about the the tightrope walker who walked across Niagara Falls and he said to the crowd, Do you believe that I can walk across Niagara Falls? And the crowd said, Yes, I do believe. Well then, will you get into the wheelbarrow? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I, you know, will you get into Jesus' wheelbarrow? You know.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that a true story, that one? Yeah, I think so. He put his mother in the wheelbarrow. Oh, what did he do?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I know that bit. Yeah, yeah. It's it's a preacher's story. Let's let's leave it at that.
SPEAKER_01Let's just think about this person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's call him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then then then the other illustration was God's given you a gift. But you've got to unwrap the gift. Okay, great. What does that mean? Yeah. What does that mean? And all the while, it's I think it's because the gift, right, is an abstract thing called forgiveness or whatever it is. But if it's Jesus, okay, I am proclaiming Christ to you. He has declared his wedding vows to you. And he's he's said on the cross, all that I am I give to you, all that I have I share with you. For better, for worse, for rich, for poor, in sickness and in health, will you will you receive him? Right? Will you receive him? And then people are like, Well, okay, maybe I maybe I do I want do I want do I want to be yoked to Jesus? Do I want to be united to Jesus? Okay. And then there is actually a sacrament attached to that. It's called baptism.
SPEAKER_01And then so just to put it like try and pull it out of that abstract for a second, just to so imagine you're you're you're in conversation with someone and they say, actually, yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty convinced by this. You know, I think Jesus is who he says he is, and I think this stuff's all true. But you know, let's imagine that they're in a position where at the moment you would have considered them to be someone who's not yet a believer, and they're just saying, Actually, I've come to a point, yeah, they've come to a point where they're saying I think it is true. What you do in that situation? Because that because all we seem to have invented is, well, we must do the prayer now. But we just go, Well Great. You're in. See ya on judgment day. See ya.
SPEAKER_00At least come to see you on Sunday, like today.
SPEAKER_01See you on Sunday.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, absolutely pray, but why don't you why don't you pray by saying how absolutely fantastic. Can I can I show you a verse from Romans 10? Because it says, Whoever believes that Jesus is Lord, whoever confesses that Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, they'll be saved. And you're like, so like what do you reckon? Do you do you think Jesus is Lord? Like he's numero uno, tops, he's the one, he's what God is like? Do you reckon that? Okay, great. And and like, you know, you seem you seem to be talking about Jesus like he's alive, like he's a person, like you're encountering him. Like, do you think that he beat death, or do you think death beat him? You know, like did do you think he rose from the dead and go through in those in those sorts of terms.
SPEAKER_01So in a sense, is even if you still you pray, right? It's a very different setup, isn't it? Yeah. Rather than you know, the the kind of here's almost when we say, Oh, let's pray the prayer in that kind of situation, it's almost like it's great that you believe all those things, but let's just make sure we seal the deal now. Right. Like, here's the proper things you need to say and do before we actually know, and then you do the prayer and you go, Great, now you're a Christian. No, no, no. When you said Amen then, that was it. That was the moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which isn't it, because if you take Romans 10 seriously, then yeah, praying the prayer about it is not the moment, isn't it? Is it? It's like you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord. Yeah, exactly. And so what I do is I'll take them through Romans 10, and if they say yes and yes, I say, Well, bad luck, you're a Christian. Like, this is fantastic. Um, we're gonna pray in a second, but let's let's start talking about um when we can get you baptized, because this is fantastic. And yeah, I I just talk in those terms, in in terms of I think Christ has already claimed you for his own. I I don't I I don't think you would be talking in these terms if he if he wasn't graciously at work in your life in this in this way.
SPEAKER_01And actually, when we start saying, Okay, well let's do the prayer, you know, the prayer, you know. No, let's just pray. Let's not do the prayer. Let's do this prayer. If you when you start talking like like that, we end up going back away from the kind of grace alone thing, don't we? That yes, God's done it all by grace, but now you just need to do the thing. The ball's in your course. Yeah, now it's in your Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00You know. Um so Max Licardo, you know, uh uh this quote online that I see quoted by loads of people, you know, if there are a thousand steps between heaven and you, God has taken nine hundred and ninety-nine of them. Uh. And all he wants is for you to take, you know, that one step. It is finished. That last step I can't uh Yeah. And that and that's like, you know, gr it's not grace alone, it's grace ninety-nine point nine per cent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So what would it be to do grace a hundred percent? And I and I think to believe grace a hundred percent is is literally to say that the offer of Christ has been made, and if someone, you know, believes that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised him from the dead, he has already claimed them. And then absolutely I want to pray with them.
SPEAKER_01You know, and and rejoice with them, and you know And I mean, you know, we we've we've talked before about you know, you are called to new life, aren't you? Like Lazarus who is dead in the tomb. He doesn't he's not lying there, you know, as Jesus says, Lazarus come out, he's not lying there thinking, shall I shall I not weigh up me up to you? Shall I take the steps? Shall I take the steps?
SPEAKER_00Like Shall I bank the check of resurrection life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but actually see, I think grace alone is i it's good news, isn't it, basically? Right. It is it is the best news. The problem uh when I because I had to preach on grace, well I preached on your will be done not long ago in the Lord's Prayer. Right. And so I came at it from two angles talking about God's will in the sense of salvation, so you know, no one comes to the Father unless uh Right So no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws him, um and so on, that kind of angle. But yet also the Father's will in kind of you know, when we see suffering going on, actually everything is is within God's control and so on. Um and a lot of Christians find that aspect, thinking of grace, you know, saying it's entirely in God's hands, salvation, really, really hard. I remember on the the Friday before I preached sitting in the coffee bar and talking to some people there, and and I said, you know, it's not us, it's all from God, and we're called, you know, predestination, chosen before creation, and all this kind of stuff. And this lady was just like, Well, I don't agree with that. Um if that's true, there's no hope for my son. And I was like, Well, why? Why is there no hope for your son? I said, You don't know whether God has chosen him. You know, you can't know. The fact he hasn't, as of yet, right kind of said, Yes, Jesus is the one, doesn't mean that further down the line at some point you won't. I mean you just don't know. But a lot of Christians find it really, really hard. Maybe not so much that God chose it before creation, because that all sounds very nice. The bit they don't like is the other side of it. Right.
SPEAKER_00Is that by default therefore having passed over the others. Yeah. Which is somewhere that like Luther just refused to go. I mean, it's i it's interesting. So it was more of a Calvin thing, wasn't it? Yeah, so it's a double predestination type of thing. Yeah, so Calvin Calvin was much more prepared to press into what about yeah, what about those who are not saved, who disbelieve, or who, you know, who are left in unbelief. For for Luther, it was it was very much, look, I don't know about that. I can't go behind the back of Jesus to figure out God's plans and economy of salvation. I just keep looking to Jesus and he keeps having his arms open to the world. So in a in a sense, Luther is much less speculative and doesn't want to press into the you know the divine decrees before the creation of the world. He just kind of thinks, well, let's let's just look to Christ and particular Christ and him crucified. And you cannot deny that at that stage we've got a we've got a God with his arms wide open to the world, bleeding for enemies. He seems to be a gracious God, let's uh just keep him front and centre in our thoughts rather than behind his back and in eternity. So I yeah, I mean I like I like Luther for that in terms of the this determination really to to keep on focusing our thoughts on on Christ and Him crucified. It does m it does make him more annoying for people for people who want to, you know, dot all their I's and cross all their T's and and and join the dots on theology. Ah, you know, if God does everything in salvation, then he deliberately, you know, wants all these other people to go to hell. Sure. And Luther's just like, oh, I don't I don't know that doesn't it doesn't say that in the Bible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It says God so loved the world in the Bible. I don't know about your Bible, but let's let's let's have a look at the Bible, you know. So I I like that in Luther, even though he's more annoying for the for those uh yeah who wanna yeah, want to think more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think we want to see you know the uh ultimately that that it is by grace alone, that it all comes from God. Yes. Is that is a good thing. Because even even if it was ninety-nine point nine percent steps, and then we had to do the thing to seal the deal, yeah, we would always be thinking, as Luther himself was, right, you know, was that prayer prayerful enough? Was I repentant enough? Was I contrite enough? Did I confess enough? Yeah. Um, you know, and that's what we do see with Luther. Yeah. And it will always leave you feeling unsure. Right. There'll always be that thing, won't there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um Yeah. Like, yeah, famously he would climb up the holy stairs, the Scala Sancta in um in Rome. And you know, you would have to you'd in in fifteen ten he went on a pilgrimage to to Rome and You know, he said the Lord's Prayer on each of the steps, on his knees, kissing each step as he went, you know, hoping to to you know to get favour with God. And when he got to the top of the steps, he famously said, Who knows if this is so? Yeah. Who knows if this is so? And that and that's you know, however many steps you have to climb, um, if it's down to you, you know you never know. And and on the whole Calvin Arminius sort of debate, it was it was hilarious. I once uh heard uh Cornelius Van Till uh give a lecture, not live, um, on on MP3 and I and I I listened to him sort of say that he was on holiday and he went to this this church where the preacher was an Arminian who basically said the bus pulls up into the centre of town. And here's his illustration. The illustration is the bus is on its way to Fort Knox, where there's all the gold in the world for anyone, and there's uh there's enough you know seats on the bus for the entire town to you know to come onto the bus. Whomsoever wills, let them come and and they can go to Fort Knox. And the and the preacher said, That's what the gospel is. And uh and Van Till, you know, sat there smiling and nodding, and and then at the end of the service went and shook the preacher by the hand and he said, I absolutely loved that illustration. That was a wonderful illustration of the gospel, the bus that's on its way to Fort Knox, and uh there's enough seats on the bus for everyone. I thought that's brilliant. I would only make one alteration. Instead of the bus pulling up in the middle of the town, I'd have the bus pull up to the cemetery. And whomsoever wills, let them come. And that and that's what the gospel is. It's it's this summons to life from the dead. And yeah, it is, whomsoever, let them come. But but grace is not just Jesus clearing a path and making it possible for you to be saved. Grace is, you know, I I often give this illustration with you know my cats, you know, when I want to encourage my cats to leave the house and get out there, you know, I don't just make safe passage for them. I don't just open the door and and you know leave them clear instruction. I'm very hands-on in in the grace that will deliver them from this realm and into the next realm. I I seize them, I take control of them, they're biting and scratching me, I don't care. I'm picking them up and I'm chucking them out, you know, and that's grace. Grace is Jesus picking you up by the scruff of the neck. You're scratching and biting, and he delivers you into the realm of the Father. And thank God for that. And that that's that's your friend's hope for their son. Your friend's hope for her son is that there is that kind of grace that picks us up by the scruff of the neck while we're kicking and screaming, you know. Very good. Well, that's Grace Alone for you, and uh and we would love it if you would uh get onto Facebook Speak Life UK. Search for Speak Life UK on Facebook, and our videos are there. We've had Grace Alone, we've also had our Christ Alone video, and stay tuned, do like the page so that you can be kept updated with our further videos in this series. We've also got a great explainer video, uh, an animation uh with David and Goliath, that's coming out, and some wonderful Christmas videos and resources that are coming up as well. So please uh do get on to uh Speak Life UK on Facebook, like the page, and uh if you're not already subscribed to this podcast, we'd love you to uh hit uh subscribe and to perhaps share this with your friends. The way uh the way this thing works is uh what you like, you share, and we hope you like this, we hope you share it, and uh and we hope that it gets out there and blesses lots of people. So, thank you very much uh for listening to the Evangelist Podcast. Thank you, Paul. No Royce, been a pleasure. And we'll uh see you next week for Faith Alone.