Today on the Evangelist Podcast, surprising gospel strategy number four. Don't build bridges.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01This is the Evangelist Podcast. We're exploring ideas about how to encourage you sharing your faith. And we're doing a series, or we've been doing a series now for a number of weeks, on surprising gospel strategies. Can we remember them, Glenn?
SPEAKER_04Oh no, I can't. Let's try! Let's try. No, uh no. Go on. Remember that.
SPEAKER_01First one was don't tell people Jesus is God.
SPEAKER_04I think that was number three, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04Let's um let's let's let's look it up.
SPEAKER_01Shut the doors of the church. Number two. Okay, number two is Oh move on.
SPEAKER_04Number two is move on.
SPEAKER_01Move on, well done.
SPEAKER_04Number three is uh don't tell them that Jesus is God. Yes. Yes. So shut your doors, move on, don't tell them that Jesus is God. And today build bridges. Do not whatever you do build bridges. Right. Okay. This is very important.
SPEAKER_01So before we uh start talking about uh the surprising gospel strategy for today, um we've got some exciting Christmas plans.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Do you want to shed the details?
SPEAKER_04Yes, I will I will shed some light on the details, but I can't tell you everything or I'd have to kill you. We'd have to have to all sign non-disclosure agreements because I swear the ending the ending to this video is going to blow your collective minds. So uh we're doing we're doing a Christmas campaign, and we want to go head to head with John Lewis and Sainsbury's and Tesco's and and all the other big boys in the field, and basically, this in Britain has become such a cultural phenomenon. People wait for the John Lewis commercial. It's almost like this is this is when Christmas really begins. Forget advent calendars or however else people measure. When does Christmas begin? Um people say Christmas begins when the John Lewis commercial comes out. So we we want to be in the mix there, and we want to have uh a video campaign that is yeah, that stands up to these other campaigns and brings the actual Christmas message in with it, which would be nice, wouldn't it? Um so let's redeem this cultural form for Christmas and preach Christ through it. We've got James Carey working on it, we've got uh Barry Cooper and Nate Morgan Locke working on it, we've got professional actors, professional uh filmographers working on it. We're pulling it together, and uh we'd love your help. Uh we're gonna put together uh a little crowdfunding campaign uh for this video. It'll it'll cost a few thousand. Um it might it might it might end up costing uh five figures, and uh but I I think it'll be worth it, and I think it has the potential to reach millions. So get excited for it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, get excited, and uh stay tuned for more details and how you can help and support. So we're looking at our surprising gospel strategy number four, don't build bridges. What do you mean then? Uh surely it's the essence of good communication to build a bridge and get you know alongside somebody and Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I don't know. I mean, communication definitely depends on the fact that we've got things in common. So I I mean I did a debate with uh Masharaf Hussein, which we'll uh speak about at the end of August when it comes out on the Unbelievable podcast. Um and it sort of started with Masharaf Hussein talking about how he, you know, experienced religious studies at school and profound found it a profoundly unhelpful, you know, experience. And, you know, I guess that was a common experience for me. I did I didn't find the religious studies that I did at school particularly helpful. Um he also said that he really liked uh the Premier Christianity magazine, and I could agree that I also like the Premier Christianity magazine. And so, you know, on an interpersonal level, there we go. There's some common grounds, and from there we go uh we go we move forwards. Um and you know, obviously we share a common language if we're going to communicate, so there's there's got to be some some common things that that happen. But I guess what I'm against is imagining that there is some kind of neutral ground that stands between you and I. And that uh we need to establish that first of all we both see the world in exactly the same ways, we've got the same criteria for understanding the world, and by your criteria, Andy, I'm going to move you step by step along the path to my worldview, and uh, you know, once once you're over the line, suddenly I've convinced you uh to become a Christian. I think that is a deeply flawed way of understanding what evangelism is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so where do you see this uh negative building bridges happening then?
SPEAKER_04A lot. I'm seeing it a lot. I mean, I was listening to a a debate just s this morning, actually. I was I was listening to a debate in which uh a Christian was trying to convince an atheist of uh belief in God, and and they began from this sort of neutral starting point and sort of built up the arguments from uh, you know, there is a first cause and therefore there's somebody who caused it, and the universe is fine-tuned, and therefore there must be a fine-tuner, and there's uh we've all got these moral dispositions, and therefore we can build from a common understanding of absolute moral standards, therefore we build towards God, the great lawgiver. And what was interesting to me is that the atheist in in this debate made a very telling point, and the atheist said, Look, I would like to believe in God. That's what he said. That's how he reported it. He said, I would like to believe in God. I've opened myself up to the to the arguments, and I just haven't found them persuasive. So are you saying that I'm just this recalcitrant liar? You know what is recalcitrant? Stubborn kind of, you know, someone is all my philosophy just a a smokescreen for the fact that I don't want to believe because you know I'm I'm against God as a truth suppressor. Yes, is that what you're really saying?
SPEAKER_01Someone said that uh to me, you know, they said I'd really love to believe my my mother had faith. Right. And I'd love to, but I just don't you know I just don't believe.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right. And I w I was expecting from the Christian side of things for the Christian to then say, um, Romans 1, no, you're actually a truth suppressor, and you know, none of us uh sure in our minds we might have an idea of some kind of skydaddy that we would quite like to exist, but the actual blood, sweat, and tears, Jesus, who is the judge of all mankind, you know, who wants me body and soul for eternity, that's that kind of gods and and that kind of truth we suppress all the time. And I was expecting that kind of thing from the from the Christian debater. But from the Christian debater, he he just kind of said, Well, no, I I I think we are these sort of neutral people, and you know, God doesn't want to overwhelm people with a knowledge of himself, and therefore he leaves a space for people to make make a leaf of faith according to whether they really love him or not.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04And I just thought at that stage that's not really what Romans 1 is saying, for instance. You know, Romans 1 is From heaven God is revealing everything. You know, what may be known about God is being made plain to people, because God has made it plain to people. But people hold the truth down in unrighteousness. That seems to be a more biblical way of of expressing the the fact of unbelief. There are unbelievers in the world not because God is unclear, but because we don't want God, actually, deep down. So I think if you set up a Christian debate in terms of yes, people want there to be a God, yes, if only they receive you know the the correct amount of you know evidence, then they will make the leap of faith. I just don't think that's how the Bible sets things up, and I don't think it's I don't think it's how people tick. And even if you persuade someone, here's here's I guess my big problem. Even if you persuade someone, you haven't really persuaded them on the basis of God's own revelation. You've persuaded them on the basis of your own cleverness, the watertightness of your arguments, and their own intellect and their own ability to be able to piece things together and make the clever choice. And if that's what their Christianity then depends on, they're in a very shaky position. So I I I I guess if if you want to cast Christian persuasion in terms of bridge building, you've got to be very sure of the strength of that bridge. And if what that bridge is, is a series of clever arguments one of the dangers is even if that non-Christian crosses that bridge, that you they they might be three quarters of the way across the bridge, but then they might find that the bridge is not as as as sure as they had imagined. They might just meet a cleverer person with a cleverer argument. And then, you know, if their Christianity is built on a clever argument, it's only as strong as that clever argument is. So that that's my big problem, really, with with bridge building.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it says in uh 1 Corinthians 2 from verse 1, When I came to you I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom, as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified, I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with the demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, exactly. That your faith might not rest on human wisdom but on the spirit's power. And the spirit's power is very much tied to the proclamation of the cross here. I mean it's very interesting. Paul we we tend to be worried that as we offer the gospel to people, they might not reach out and take it. Paul was worried about something even deeper. He was worried he was worried that people would kind of take what we're offering them, but that what we're offering them might not be the true gospel.
SPEAKER_01Just on a purely kind of human intellectual level.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, uh often people who are not Christians, the questions that they ask are evidence questions, aren't they? But what about this? But what about that? Right. Right. Um it's almost an impossible task to kind of fulfil every single question.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_01The bridge, the the gap, if you like, is so big that you can't it's almost too difficult to to build a bridge across intellectually.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And that and that's where some people go. They sort of say, look, the gulf is so wide that we we can never do that. And therefore, now this is not what I'm saying. What I'm not saying is, therefore, we just leave people on the far side of this great gulf, this yawning chasm, and we just pray that they have some kind of experience of the spirit that will, you know, some some kind of zapping from on high. Um that's not what Paul's talking about here. Paul is not talking about the life of the mind is uh a write-off, and therefore let's just be experiential. Paul says, no, there there is something, I I don't even want to use the phrase bri bridge building. It's not something that builds a bridge, because it's not it's not as though Christianity and the unbeliever are on the same plane and they just need to bridge build a bridge across. It's far more there's heaven and earth on top of each other. There's a word that needs to come down from on high. That's what needs to and it's not a bridge. Um it it it is far more like a rescue rope. It's far more like it's you know, that the arrow is coming down, the arrow is coming down, the arrow is coming down, and it's coming down in a very surprising way. The cross is completely surprising. There are Greek type type type people who are just looking for wisdom and clever arguments, and the cross just looks foolish. There are Jew type people, according to um 1 Corinthians 2, who are looking for miraculous miraculous signs, and the cross just looks weak. Nonetheless, there's no plan B. This is this is all we've got to offer to people. There's Christ crucified, and he comes down from on high and he absolutely shocks and surprises people. You've been looking for wisdom. Here's a cross, is that wise? Actually, push into push into this, and you've you've got the you know the Lord of all creation making an offer to the world. There's a wisdom here. Push into this. Does it look weak? Well, how weak is it for God to actually redeem the world? Actually, when you press into it, there's a power and there's a wisdom here that wouldn't wouldn't originally occur to you. But this is what needs to happen. What needs to happen is that this surprising word of the cross confronts us in all our foolishness, in all our truth suppression, shows us a God we had never imagined before, and then turns our world right side up. On the far side of preaching the word of the cross, there is power. There is wisdom. But it's not the power and the wisdom that the unbeliever naturally desires.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So can you put that into sort of like practical terms? You know, say we were talking to somebody, an atheist perhaps.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What is, if you like, the old alternative to trying to intellectually build this bridge? How do we need to think or how do we need to look at it?
SPEAKER_04I'll give you a big picture thing and then an example. So a big picture thing is in my book 321, I sort of start with saying, look, I'm not into building stepping stones from the non-Christian house to the Christian house. You know, Christianity is like a house, and from the outside it might look a bit weird, uh, but I'm not about building stepping stones. I'm far more just about saying, come on inside, I'll give you the ground tour of the house. And this is all gonna seem like nuts. So what's fascinating to me is you know, 321 is based on three of the most nuts-sounding doctrines that the non-Christian could ever have dreamt of. Let's begin with Trinity, okay? And non-Christians going, Well, yeah, trust me. Let's press into this. Trinity. And then on the far side of Trinity, you understand why love is the greatest thing in the world. Okay? You know? It's it starts off as weird and then it becomes very familiar. The reason why we live in a world in which love is the greatest thing is because of this triune God. And then the second truth is about Adam and Christ. Again, this is another story. Am I meant to take Adam seriously? Really, really? Ah yeah, but on the far side of this, don't you realize, doesn't this explain the human condition? Why we are born into this world as addicts? Why like everybody is is just curved in on themselves, and we we all have the same human family traits, this dysfunctional family. We all share the same human family traits. Maybe maybe it's because we're family, you know? Um on the far side of pressing into the Adam story, it becomes familiar. And then like union with Christ, like really married to Jesus? We're really married to Jesus? Um it's a really odd thing. But actually, isn't that the highest thing that you want in life? Don't you want to be united to to one who loves you and that sort of thing? So actually, you you lead with things that initially sound odd, but on the far side of it, you you you find that there's a fulfillment of your deepest longings. And actually, um, you know, Dan Strange, who was a lecturer at uh continues to be a lecturer at Oak Hill uh Theological College, where I did my uh my training about ten years ago now, and um Dan Strange uh has written some great stuff about subversive fulfillment. Um this is what the gospel kind of brings us. It's subversive in that it cuts out the rug from under your feet and it says, look, what you had thought was the nature of reality is not the case. You know, um you might not have believed that there was a God, you might have believed in some kind of Unitarian God, who knows. Not true. The God who is really there is Trinity. You're wrong, right? You've you're you're completely subverted, but then you press deeper and you realize, ah, that's what explains every every element of your daily life. The reason why when your head hits the pillow, the reason why today has been a good day is because you've had loving connection person to person. Or the reason why today's been a terrible day is because you know you've fallen out with someone and that loving person-to-person connection has fallen down. You know why that's true? Because ultimate reality is loving person-to-person connection. Um so it's subversive fulfillment on the far side of this really weird thing comes this really familiar thing. Um and Dan Strange, I've I've got a quote from um from him as he unpacks what subversive fulfillment is all about, and he basically says unbelief is essentially an idolatrous refashioning of divine revelation, which is antithetical and yet parasitic on Christian truth, and the gospel of Jesus Christ is the subversive fulfillment of it. So he's basically saying there is this divine revelation that is coming at people. And this is this is why I don't need to build a bridge in a sense, in in that God is already revealing himself, like fully to the world. We already live in a world in which love is the greatest thing. We're already living in a world in which we know that there's this human dysfunction. We're already living in a world in which union with someone who loves us is our highest ideal. So it in a sense I don't really need to build a bridge, but what I first need to do is to show how the world has in in idolatry has refashioned this divine revelation. And I need to bring to bear the Christian truth and say, look, everything that you believe in is parasitic on the Christian truth. Let me let me show you the original and and show you how this is the world right side up. And now you're gonna have to turn upside down to see the truth that is right side up, and now you're gonna see Jesus Christ as the subversive fulfillment. First he subverts and then he fulfills. So that's a whole bunch of big picture stuff about what what should go on.
SPEAKER_01Now the example.
SPEAKER_04Now the example. Yes, you're keeping me on track. Um I was listening to a Dick Lucas sermon recently. Dick Lucas was a wonderful gospel minister uh in the city in London, and St. Helens Bishopsgate, um, he kind of turned that church around, and it's now just this uh amazing uh church that sends out gospel workers uh all over the world, really St. Helens Bishopsgate. But uh Dick Lucas was preaching and he he kind of said that uh as he was preaching at one of his Tuesday lunchtime services, and many people from the city come, you know, they would come in their bowler hats and pinstripe suits, and and he said, you know, one of these bankers came up to me and said, Um, but if I if I become a Christian, I will lose my individual freedom. And you know, and so at what point, at you know, how how how would we naturally respond to that? You know, we might respond to him by saying, No, John ten ten, life to the full, you know, and you know, you won't you won't lose your your freedom, it's it's life to the full, John ten ten. Or we might kinda say, Yeah, you'd be a slave to Christ. Be a slave to Christ. And are you up to it? You know, are you are you up to it? Brilliantly. Um Dick Lucas said, uh, my dear friend, you have no individual freedom, which is just subversive, isn't it? Like he goes deeper. He basically he basically cuts the rug out from under the the feet of the guy and says, What you think you're standing on is nuts, it's crazy, it's stupid, it's wrong. Okay, you you have no freedom at all. And what you call freedom is slavery. You know, as you run around chasing after money, let's say, money's got its hands on you. You know, money money's really got you by the jugular. You think it's all about possessions, those possessions possess you. You are enslaved already. There's there's a subversive, you know, truth. And here's Jesus, and yes, he he gives you he gives you a freedom in r relationship with himself, which is a very different notion of freedom. So Dick Lucas does not in that moment he does not agree to the banker's definition of freedom. Okay? He he doesn't try and build a bridge. He doesn't say, Okay, you believe in freedom, and I believe in freedom, and let's try and assess Jesus Christ by your definition of freedom. No. He says your definition of freedom is slavery. Whoa, that's that's subversive. But now let me give you Jesus, and in Jesus you find a freedom that is so much better than any worldly definition of of freedom. So I I think that's I think Dick Lucas shows the way, and let's let's not build bridges. Let's declare this subversive word from on high. And as we confront people and and completely challenge even the the dearest intuitions they have and the and the and the deepest fundamental uh foundations that they think they're standing on, let's challenge all that and then on the far side of it, show them that there is a subversive fulfilment in Jesus. And I think we'll then find that they are standing on something far more solid than our little bridge that we've built. They're standing on the rock of Christ. Good.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well that's uh our surprising gospel strategy number four. Building bridges.
SPEAKER_04Build bridges. Build bridges. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And uh we'll have to you'll have to wait and see what uh there's some good ones coming out.
SPEAKER_04Let's get some good ones.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So if you'd like to keep updated with uh Glenn's calendar and uh general ministry updates, then do visit our website and sign up via email. We'd love to keep you informed of what goes on. If you'd like to hear more episodes like this, do subscribe to the Evangelist Podcast. You can do that at speaklife.org.uk slash tep, and there's a big list there of all the episodes. And if you click on uh the titles, you can go straight to the page. And if you have a comment or something that perhaps we've missed, or even if you disagree, you can comment there at the bottom of the page or ask a question, even.
SPEAKER_04Hmm. Love to hear some interaction on especially on today, very pro very provocative. Yeah, yeah. Come back come back at us and let's let's start a dialogue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, that's it for now. See you next time.
SPEAKER_04See ya.