Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we talk to Ben Virgo about the freedom movement. The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01This is the Evangelist Podcast. Now with 106 near 170 episodes.
SPEAKER_04What should we do for a couple of minutes? Let's let's plan now. Episode 1000. How how long will that take us?
SPEAKER_01I'm just trying to work out how old old is that far away look.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That's not bad going.
SPEAKER_01That's not too bad.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Hopefully 170 helpful episodes.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes, better than a slap in the face with a wet haddock.
SPEAKER_01Enabling people to enabling people to be refreshed in their Christian witness.
SPEAKER_04How about that? That's a good aim. And uh and talking to some very interesting people along the way. So we had Justin Briley uh last week talking about uh his new book Unbelievable, um which actually has a question mark at the end. I I never really noticed that about the radio show. Have you noticed that Unbelievable has a question mark at the end?
SPEAKER_01Well it's radio, so it's radio. But they never read it.
SPEAKER_04They never read it because the question mark. Because you know the guy who does the IDEN says, unbelievable with Justin Briley. Right. Really? You should say unbelievable. And then it starts to sound like Scooby-Doo, really. Unbelievable. Um but I I would like to say that, Justin, if you're listening, I think you need to redo the IDEN. You're not really communicating the question mark. Unbelievable. Yeah. Punctuation matters, and I think we should bring it into the realm of podcasts. That's all I'm saying. You know it's the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_01And they've they've got a a large number of episodes, haven't they? 500 or something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they'll have to go back over them and redo it. Unbelievable. Because it's me, yeah, is the Christian faith unbelievable? It should be a question mark. But yeah, I'd never noticed that before.
SPEAKER_01And you were on Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yes. Yes. Um which just hasn't aired yet. It will be aired in uh end of August. Yeah. End of August. So desperately waiting for that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't know. I've been reflecting back on. I guess it's been like ten days since I had my uh debate with Masharif Hussein. And uh yeah, I I I don't know. You you sort of think about all the things that you should have said and whether what was in your mind uh was actually communicated in your words.
unknownYou start to doubt.
SPEAKER_04Because everything made perfect sense on this side of the microphone. Whether it made any sense on the other side, I'm sure it did. But um yeah, no, I'm looking I'm looking forward to it coming out and for it to start further conversations, not only conversations with um with other Muslims, uh, because it was the title um is the trinity in the old testament. A more nuanced way of putting that is is Moses' doctrine of God Muhammad's doctrine of God? And we went back to the Old Testament to have a look. And I think it's perfectly obvious that actually Moses' doctrine of God is wildly different from Muhammad's doctrine of God. Fascinatingly, and we'll talk about this when it when it comes out later in August, but fascinatingly, Masharaf began by saying, Well, it's axiomatic in the Quran that God is not a father and he has no son. And it w it seems axiomatic to me that Moses continually talks about God as father and they are the children of Israel and and the children of God, and and so emphatically the God of the Old Testament is father, emphatically, the God of of the Quran is not father. Take your pick. So that was kind of uh where we went on that conversation, but we can we can talk about that more when it comes out. But I hope it starts conversation with Muslims, but I also hope it starts a conversation with Christians about the Old Testament, because I think we tend to think that the Old Testament is just obviously this basically Quranic thing. That basically Old Testament has this Unitarian doctrine of God, that it's basically um yeah, God is one person. Um and the Trinity is this nuance that happens in the New Testament, and then the Quran comes along later. Um, but I think if you assume that as a Christian, you're gonna get, you know, intellectually beaten up in these debates with Muslims. And I don't think you're gonna read your Old Testament correctly, because I don't think there's any way that you can pay serious attention to the Old Testament and not come away with the idea that there is a complex unity to God in the Old Testament, and there is a divine, distinct person called the Messenger of the Lord, the Word of the Lord, the glory of the Lord, this person we know as Christ, um, who is of the Lord and he is the Lord and these sorts of things. So I I hope it will start a a conversation about how Christians read the Old Testament as well, and I think that could be fruitful, but we'll see.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well we'll look forward to that in a future episode of the Evangelist Podcast. So today we're we're gonna be speaking to Ben Virgo. Yes. I recognise the surname. Yes. Um Terry Virgo.
SPEAKER_04Terry Virgo is his dad. And uh Joel Virgo, uh I know from uh CCK Brighton. I've preached many times there. So yeah, they're from a very fruitful family. So Terry Virgo had uh had five kids, and uh and I think yeah, Terry Virgo has got a lot of grandchildren's names to uh and and not names but uh birthdays to memorize. I'm sure he memorizes the names as well. Um so yes, a very, uh very fruitful uh family, the Virgos. And so I talked to uh Ben a little bit about growing up there, but also his um very interesting position at the Christian Heritage London. And really we we get talking about this new book that Mike Reeves has put out called The Freedom Movement and how we can make best use of Reformation 500, this anniversary of Martin Luther nailing the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg Church door. How can you make use of that in evangelism? And I think this book, The Freedom Movement, um, is a brilliant book to start that conversation with unbelieving friends and family.
SPEAKER_01So we talk about that. Because it kind of gives you a little bit more of a an approachable, accessible idea of the Reformation was all about. Yeah, and really Second only to the Playmobil version on YouTube.
SPEAKER_04That's right, yeah, yeah. Do do be sharing that. Have have you guys seen the uh yeah, the the uh stop animation um thing that Dan Rackham's done at Timbows? So it's great.
SPEAKER_01I share our kids because uh engaging well, not just for kids, but uh also gives you kind of an overview of Luther's life and Yeah, it's charming.
SPEAKER_04That's what it's a it's a charming anime animation and just made for sharing. So do do get on Facebook and Twitter and but share that video.
SPEAKER_01But this is also not not a not a thick book that uh deeply needs deep study and theological. It's thirty-eight pages long.
SPEAKER_04Thirty-eight pages long, and ten publishing have done this again. So Jonathan Carswell, you genius.
SPEAKER_01So we'll put a link to to this book in the Oh, it's absolutely brilliant.
SPEAKER_04It's it's fantastic kind of design and illustration, and uh just a a really great book to have on your coffee table, and then a really great book to to give away to people. And what I find the the opening uh that Mike goes for in in this book, I think is a great opening to a conversation about what the Reformation is. Here's here's how he boils it down. Let me just read the opening sentences. Um five hundred years ago, a discovery was made that would change the world, unleashing happiness wherever it went. So that's that's interesting. It's about happiness and unleashing joy. He says, still today it is transforming lives and cultures. The secret was this. Aren't you hooked? Don't you want to know the secret of happiness? And here it is. Broken people, and then here's a quote from Martin Luther they are not loved because they are attractive, they are attractive because they are loved. I think every Christian should learn that. Read Mark, learn, and inwardly digest that, understand what what what this this um sentence is saying, and let that be a springboard into a conversation. Because I think it's brilliant. He says, we are not loved because we are attractive, we are attractive because we are loved. In the religious realm, you can see obviously I want to get loved by God, and so I'm gonna make myself attractive through doing all these good works and going to church every you know every day and lighting a candle and going through these religious rituals. I'm gonna try and get loved by becoming attractive. Martin Luther says, no, no, no, no, no, you're attractive because you're loved. The love of God comes first. You're already loved, you know, ugly, broken sinner that you are, you're already loved, and that love makes you attractive. So in the religious realm, that's what the Reformation was all about. A whole bunch of people were trying to get loved by becoming attractive. Martin Luther says, rubbish. You're loved, and that makes you attractive. Um, and that creates the Reformation, but I think it's still a question for today. You know, do you think, modern secular person, do you think that you're gonna get loved by becoming attractive? If you do, it's a treadmill, and it's a treadmill every bit as enslaving as medieval Christianity. The treadmill of and maybe a literal treadmill, you know, you go to the gym and you've gotta get your you know, your abs and you've gotta, you know, build your your your your beach ready body in order to become loved. I make myself attractive in order to be loved, and so I'm building my C V, I'm getting all the experiences that I can, possibly out there in the world. I'm traveling, I'm I'm trying to accumulate attractiveness in order to get love. And actually that's a slavery. It's a medieval kind of slavery. What we all need is this Reformation truth. No, no, no, you're attractive because you're loved. You're already loved. Already. The love of God, the grace of God is already for you in Jesus, even though you're ugly in yourself. You're ugly in yourself, you're loved by Jesus, and when you grasp that, you start to become attractive. So I I think this could be a really fruitful way into a conversation. Wrap your head around this opening sentence from the Freedom Freedom Movement, and then launch it on your unsuspecting uh non-Christian friend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So this this book's not written by Ben Virgo. It's written Ben Virgo. It's written by Mike Creese, but but Ben Virgo uh has been instrumental in bringing it together.
SPEAKER_04He's a connected guy. He's a connected guy, and he's he's brought the whole thing together and ensured that it it looks brilliant and attractive, and uh the the the ten of those guys have have done a great job on that as well. Um but the Christian Heritage London for which um Ben Ben Virgo works, this is their whole shtick. Their whole shtick is bringing the the truths of how the gospel has affected us historically and bringing them up to date and and representing our Christian heritage in a way to uh engage non-Christians today. So uh yeah, so that's some of the stuff that we talk about.
SPEAKER_01Good. Okay, well, this is Ben Virgo and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_04Well it's great to have on the Evangelist Podcast Ben Virgo. Thank you for joining us. You're welcome, Doctor. I'm not a real doctor, but uh honestly. Uh so we tell us where we are right now in London town.
SPEAKER_02We are in a church building called St. Botolf Without Aldersgate.
SPEAKER_04Nobody snigger. Okay, let's all be grown up about this.
SPEAKER_02The thing is, the name Botolf we brought back.
SPEAKER_04The trouble is, what would you call him for short? St. Bots. Yeah, there you go. I I once preached at a church called St. Bots, and it and it was, you know, affectionately known by the congregation of St. Bots. Mark Lucas is the vicar. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, here, St. Botolf Without Aldersgate is the HQ of Christian Heritage London, which is the organization for which I work. Fantastic. And we are in a sort of in a in a square mile of history with extraordinary resonances. John Wesley was converted across the road. William Tyndale's first New Testaments were burned down the road. Wow. Wilberforce met John Newton down the road there, and uh Cramer was put on trial there, and the Smithfield Martyrs burned there, and Elizabeth Fry did Prison Reform there. And those are just some of the people who have extraordinary history. John Bunyan died around the corner from here. Really? And we take people on walks through this history and we tell the stories as we go, so we can encourage believers with the faith of these people who have come before us.
SPEAKER_04So Christian Heritage, it kind of did it begin life in Cambridge? Is that where it started? Where it began life was in Cambridge.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So who started that out and what was the ethos behind it all? It was begun by a sort of a lesbian Ubigan type figure called John Martin, who having been a missionary in India for I think 18, 17, 18 years, came back to the UK and wanted not to just retire now, but to start something gospel focused. And so he thought, I'll use the history to tell people the stories. Really fantastic idea. So he started Christian Heritage in Cambridge. It was sort of taken on by Ranald Macaulay, who is the son-in-law of Francis Schaefer. And uh they they carried that forward there. They have the great advantage being in Cambridge of having a lot of great speakers visiting. Right. And so they put on events and they can have the the role called people who've spoken for Christian Heritage in Cambridge is very impressive. But whereas they have that kind of approach of having great speakers to speak essentially for the students, we are more uh orientated towards serving the churches and bringing the gospel through the history. So when we take back take people on walks, we don't say, and Whitfield, he used to like to wear doubloons. We're not interested in the kind of minutia, we're interested in what we can be encouraged by in these people's lives.
SPEAKER_04How do you make that evangelistic? How do you make that not come across as we used to be a Christian nation and we used to, you know, never do things on Sundays and now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04How do you how do you how do you harness this for the gospel?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what we do is we tend to find people are interested in stories. And so we uh when we start to tell people a story, their ears prick up, they know, they they immediately start relating and wondering how they and we find again and again people are intrigued by the stories. And of course, uh one each thing, each each one of these people who has history around us exemplifies what Jesus says when he says if you will be faced with the small things, you will be faced with the great as well. And so as a result, we uh when we tell the stories of how John Newton and Wilberforce changed the world, we then go around the corner and go to the street up which Newton used to walk every evening to wave to his adopted daughter who was in bedlam. And he would wave every night and he'd wave until he saw her handkerchief in the window, and then he'd go. Faithful with the small things, you see. So I say, you know, you can be you might be able to be like Newton. Yeah, we might not abolish slavery, but you might care for someone who no one else cares for, like Wilberforce, or like Jesus Christ, he did that stuff and encourages people, you see. There you go, you're off and away. Yeah, yeah. We had an event recently when someone played C. S. Lewis, and he said, he said in C. S. Lewis's voice, he said, um I don't like it when people call me a Christian apologist. He says, an apology for a Christian, more like. And I think many of these people they thought, I'm not really that great, but I have a great saviour. That's encouraging people with the faith of these people who went uh uh before us. Right. I think when people hear that Wilberforce, for example, was consistently considered to be, for over years, was considered to be the funniest man in London. Really? Yeah, he's considered to be, he was always completely spontaneous. He'd speak for three hours without notes. Yeah, he was completely disorganized, he would often show up completely late, he was great with children. Right. Well, people hear those stories and they think, hang on, I thought, well before so. It sounds like a guy with a big mustache, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And he'd memorise Psalm 119 and he would say that every day on the way to church on the way to Parliament, didn't he? But I didn't know he was a riot as well. Yeah, it was a great laugh. How fun. Yeah, I encourage people. So you haven't always done this. Uh you've been doing this for the last three years, is that right? Yes, I've been doing this for three years, yeah. Okay. So let's let's we'll we'll we'll come back to some of the things you're doing at the moment with Christian heritage, but let's go back to the beginning. You are a Virgo. What's that? It was that's it's the one after Pisces, no. No, you get it. Um so okay, so you you grew up as one of five.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Terry Virgo is your dad? That's right. Okay, and you grew up sort of Brighton?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. I'm the oldest of five. Oldest of five. And then comes my sister, and then comes three brothers.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I was with one of them. I was with Joel last week, actually. And you know, Joel himself has five children. Yes. And you've got you've got a clutch of your own, don't you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. We we're we're in the lead.
SPEAKER_04You you is he nipping at your heels? Oh well, he's welcome to.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So, yeah, why are the Virgos so fecked?
SPEAKER_02I think partly because they're very attractive. No, I think. I don't I don't know what it is. I think also um there is we have been given a good example. We had parents who loved each other. I think that's uh that's partly it. I think that's rather sweet the way my dad seems to have rather liked my mum.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think he still does too. And she's really gorgeous, you know. So and it's all rather that's rather attractive to have seen that model. You know, I remember it's funny now you now you have your own teenage children. I remember my dad walking around and saying, Oh, come on, let's tidy up for mum. And you'd think uh I I I I remember that now, you know, because now because my house needs to be tidied up for mum as well, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Just little acts of service.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was 15, I had viral pneumonia and pleurisy, and I nearly died. Wow. And that was a use, that was a sort of a watershed moment. A watershed moment.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's that's the correct usage of the phrase watershed. I I misused it earlier.
SPEAKER_02And then I used benchmark. But water now we've got there at last. This has been worth doing. But the watershed moment was I kind of used that illness as an excuse to rebel. At one point during this illness, I had an operation that went wrong. For example, well, what happened was the anesthetic didn't work. Oh, so they're sticking a thing in my side, and I'm, you know, in a great deal of pain. And as I'm there crying out in pain, I'm going, Oh God, help me, you know. And it didn't seem to be getting any better. And I kind of used that. Now I look back and I say, I think I used that as an excuse to turn against God, knowing all the while that he was uh that if that he was there, right, and that he had written a true word, and so on. But uh yeah, I used that, and then I went into a foolish kind of rebellion season, which was um it must have looked rather pathetic from the outside. But yeah, and then at the age of uh that was from 15 to about to 19, and then at the age of 19, do you know the name John Wimber? Of course. John Wimber. So I was at that point, I'd I'd left school, I was working in a burger place. I was I was the only hope I had was that one of my bands was gonna make it. I was playing drums and bands in Brighton, you can imagine. And it's still it still might break America. Still involved in the industry. But no, it's so I always hoping, I was hoping that one of my bands might make it. Yeah. And John Wimber was talking to my dad, and he said, Um, how is Ben? And my dad said, Not good. And he said, Um, well, is he interested in music? And my dad said he's only interested in music. And he said, Would he like to come to America and travel with a Christian rock band? Wow. Now I heard come to America, travel with a hand. And I kind of, yeah, the word Christian, and I kind of, yeah, you can't have everything. So I went off to the States. Um, you know, I apparently my dad, I came home and my dad said, uh, would you like to go to America and travel with a band? Now, this is a guy who's working in a burger place whose own, you know, playing, it's just apparently I said to my dad, but who would do that for me? I don't remember that, but that was exactly my thoughts. And then um, yeah, I went to the States and the band was called The Violet Burning. Now The Violet Burning were based with uh Vineyard, and what was extraordinary was they were incredible musicians, but night by night, the singer would stand up and just start talking about the cross, kind of between songs. He'd kind of feel like this is the moment and he'd talk about the cross, and he would say, Do you know, you've probably seen a picture of Jesus and he looks like he's fallen asleep on the cross. He says, The Bible says his face was marred more than any man, his form beyond human likeness, like someone who you'd you wouldn't want to look at. It was so horrifying. And then he's nailed to a cross. And what he was describing essentially, he was describing something that was comprehensive. And I think I had thought, you know, I've I've gone too far, you know, everything's gone wrong, and uh and and I've gone too far to be interested in God or to be for him to accept me. But what he was describing seemed comprehensive. This was never meant to be, I've done this, now you do your bit. That's right, yeah. It was this is comprehensive. Now I was living with these guys and this man, and what was impressive also was that they just that seemed to be all they believed, they were not pious, they were not uh self-righteous, they were just saying, Well, he's done that, now we just do we live for him. And that uh after seeing that for a month, I thought this is this, I I you know I said, I think I thought, what have I got to lose?
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_02And then I went forward, and uh that was the and then I had yeah, and that was the beginning of all my confusion, of course, as you were the beginning of your confusion.
SPEAKER_04Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_02Well, of course, you come back to the UK thinking, all I understand is Jesus and the cross, you see. And then I got to play the church game, and you think that and I didn't quite no one in the church seemed to be getting it in quite the same way. Right. And there seemed to be this they had this freedom move sort of message, and I've got this whole kind of um. I I all I've got is Jesus and he really loves and he's showed it. And then what was interesting, you see, is you start reading a couple of guys and you start realizing this guy's Spurgeon. He's saying exactly what I'm thinking. Right. Morning and evening Spurgeon was a big moment for me. Wow. And he's he's saying, Yeah, you got it. You've got the whole thing I'm I'm having trouble with in your little devotional reading. You've got it. And then you read a couple of other guys, your Luther's, and you listen to some of John Piper's biographies, and I realized these guys, they were, they had been, they had seen some of the things which I had seen. Yeah, it really is. It's about the cross.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_02I think David Pryor in one of his um commentaries says we never move on from the cross. No, just to a more great uh understanding of what it is.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's not the ABCs, it's the A to Z. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Good gracious, that's profound.
SPEAKER_04It's gotta be. I don't know who I ripped that off, but um okay, so it's so it's been that messy journey of and and discovering saints from the past sounds like that that's been massive in your Christian work journey.
SPEAKER_02My friends in a way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, your dead friends who speak still, yeah. Okay, so so catch us up between between then and and how you come to be working at uh Christian heritage.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, we moved to London to be involved in church planting. We moved in with uh we came in with a new frontiers church plant. So after a season of five years involved with that church plant, we then joined uh St. Helens, you know, St. Helens Bishop's church, which was sort of like they'd say, Okay, open your Bible, just keep it open. We're just gonna go through this passage. That's right. Why is the therefore therefore? You think, oh, it was that was that was very helpful. Um, just let's go back to the Bible. And I loved their graciousness, I loved their um their attention to the their respect for the text. And um we were there for a year, and then we went off with one of their plants into East London, and from there we left and are planting a church now on an estate in Bethnal Green, amazing, where we are part of the sort of 10% non-Muslim minority, which is wow, so which is a great challenge. Yeah. But what we we are we have had very little success with Muslims, but we are convinced of the model of the local church. For example, um, I think if we had just chucked tracts at that estate from a distance, I don't think we would have had the impact that we're having. Right. We've been there for seven years. Okay. I think uh recently my uh someone came to my wife and asked her to help for some help with something on the estate. And she said, if you get involved, she said to my wife, well, everyone respects you, everyone trusts you. And we thought, they do? Yeah, you're right. Just being there has made a huge difference. And now we get Rachel's going through the Quran with a lady, and they're we continue to pray for them. But the people who come to us on Sunday are consistently not from the 90% Muslim majority. Yeah. But we continue to pray, and we've heard great. I was with Jackie Pullinger for a year for a year, and she saw ten years before she saw someone come off and stay off.
SPEAKER_04Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And uh same with uh, you know, Adam Judson and William Carey, the long game.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, long obedience in the same direction, all that.
SPEAKER_02That has been said.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, uh, yeah, all the best with that. Yeah. What's the what's the name of this church plant?
SPEAKER_02We haven't got a name. Because we're just on this. Which is branding, man. You need a graphic designer. I'm almost yeah, I'm all I think that might even be unhelpful, you know. Yeah, where is the church? I think if they the people know us, yeah. So we're doing that. So the hilarious game is you see, we're we have this tiny little church plant on our estate, and then uh and then I come to work and we're in touch with these um these large international ministries through Christian Heritage London. Yeah. It's an extraordinary little blend, but rather I think it's rather healthy. Yeah. I think you do get people who are pioneering ministries and then they go and sit on the back in a church somewhere. Yeah. I think it's healthy to be doing the blend.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like it's very you to be thrown in at two deep ends.
SPEAKER_02That's a very interesting question. Yeah, it's a very interesting point. Yeah. I did wonder um if I just get if I'd be too bored if everything was set up. Yeah, but having said that, it's I don't think it's boredom. I tend to think, and who would love these people if I wasn't there? Yeah. You know, I fix their bikes and they they come to our door, and uh and who's gonna do it? The bike fixer. Yeah, which is hilarious because I can pretty much know how to pump up a tire.
SPEAKER_04Still, you start with what you can. So so what's new at Christian Heritage?
SPEAKER_02What's exciting at well the exciting stuff is that we are we're getting we're able to serve the breadth of London's churches because we're not affiliated with the denomination, we're not an Anglican thing that we meet in an building, we're not a new frontiers thing, though. That's my background, we're not uh uh FIEC, though one of our main trustees is serious in the FIEC. We are able to serve the breadth of London's churches, and so um you tend to find that London's churches they um we all have one thing in common, and that's the a shared respect for the same heroes. So we all like the same heroes, and we at Christian Heritage London, we're affiliated with all of them. So when we say we're doing something, people come along, and that's wonderful because we that's where we that's where we sit. We want to serve the churches, we want to encourage them. We're I think we're made to think at the moment that the church is this Christian is this silly little religion. But then you look into the history and you see our people changed the world. Right. You've got young people who want to wear young people, they want to wear Che Guevara on their t-shirt, but they don't know anything about the guy. But he gave himself for something. Right. Our people, when they gave themselves for something, they changed the world. You know, the fact that most of us can read and write now, and we're not aristocracy, let's trace that back. Oh, Shaft's break. Yeah, right. The fact that, you know, all kinds of incredible justices um uh have happened is because of Christians who've invested, like Jesus said, like a little bit of yeast into the lump. Yeah. The whole thing is leavened.
SPEAKER_04What is the leap? How do you how do you go from convincing, perhaps you convince a secular person that yes, uh the freedoms that they enjoy and you know free markets and science and education and hospices and hospitals and blah blah blah? Okay, maybe that has been the leavening of the Christian gospel in our culture. How do you go from that to now you personally come to Christ?
SPEAKER_02Through one verse, um, which is uh Hebrews 13 7, which is our kind of uh special uh I don't know what the term is. It's our verse. It's ours. Okay. If anyone uses it, yeah, royalties paid to Christians. Good idea, yeah. It's um uh r it's uh remember your leaders, consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. So what we tend to do is we help people to remember these people who've gone before, consider their lives. One of the things I say on the end of my on my walk is okay, we've just about finished. I say, so which one of the people we've looked at on this walk was famous for the clever way they changed the Bible? Of course, the fact is, and you get you see people's eyes, they're kind of going, yeah, well, yeah, well, you see, that was a trick question because none of them changed. In fact, there have been people down through the centuries who've tried to change the Bible, they're immediately forgotten. Right. The people we're talking about, they did not change the Bible, they were changed by the Bible. Right. So the way we bring the rubber to the road, as it were, is by giving people an opportunity to imitate the faith. Right. And that means lots of quotes, lots of stories. You know, I've it was I saying to you earlier about um Wilberforce being always just a laugh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you say and you see, he was frustrated with Churchman and his time. He says, Where is the joy? Which is constantly being enjoyed in the text, enjoined in the text.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where is the joy? Yeah, and he when his friend Munkaster, when his friend Munkaster's child died, he writes a letter, and you can see from his handwriting that he's grieving. And it says, My dear monk, remember, he too lost a son, and he chastens the one he loves. Now you think that isn't just a politician who goes to church on Sundays, that's a man whose roots go into the gospel. He's not saying, I better write a letter, he's saying, This is this is the treasure I found. Yeah, monk, I'm offering it to you at this time. You see, now that any believer knows that because that's what they believe. They believe Christ.
SPEAKER_04And to encourage them to imitate the faith of a Newton or a Wilberforce. What are some of the things that you can offer to people that that will help them to imitate the faith of these leaders?
SPEAKER_02Firstly, the the stories, of course, we're all a bit like I'm very happy to be allergic to hagiography. We don't say these people were perfect people. We tell the stories of how they needed grace. So when I start talking about Newton, I talk about what a horrible person was. Wow, you know, and the horrifying things he saw on the slave ships and so on, and that was his daily life. Old um Marilyn Rouse, the John Newton uh project director, she pointed out that when he was going in on the ships to to Liverpool, having been on the slave trades, uh in the slave trade, he'd go into church at Liverpool and uh they would just treat him like he was working on a cargo ship. They weren't they wouldn't challenge him. My goodness, shocking business. So you you have to you have to say, but then it what what was it that happened later, you see? Home to see. As Newton dug into the text looking for treasure, he finds things which change his soul, you see. So you you tell you given the actual stories, because that's where actual help comes. When Wesley has his heart strangely warmed on that day in May 1738, just around the corner from here, he says, I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for my salvation, and an assurance was given to me that he'd taken away my sins, even mine, he says, and saved me from the law of sin and death. He had understood, even mine. It had been applied to him personally. Yes. So that is the that's a key part, telling the stories and telling the actual stories, not the not the tidy stories. And then and then seeing how it is always through people getting grasping redempt the redemptive story of the gospel that changed everything. Carson said it, I think it was in a Philippians com um commentary. He talks about these people which he says we rightly study how Harris, Whitfield, and Wesley and so on. But we must understand they brought great things about, but each of the people who brought something great about, they had a rich enjoyment of the Christ of the gospel. He he they they weren't just nominal Christians, they were they must have Christ. Down the end of the road here is St. Paul's Cathedral, and John Dunn was dean there. And he says, in while he was dean there, he had been terribly poor, he had contemplated suicide, he'd seen several of his children die, and then he'd been uh he'd been invited to be Dean of St. Paul's, so he's wealthy, but he's he knows comfort. But he says uh in in his uh his poem, his one of his sacred sonnets, he says, um unless captivate me, unless you I it's uh very similar to unless I have you, I am not free, and I'm I will never be chased unless you ravish me. You think wow, you know that he he enunciates what all these guys have believed. They had to find him to be enough.
SPEAKER_04This is the lad, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And all these guys who made a difference, it was the fruit of that root. They didn't just aim for fruits, they aimed, they got their roots deep, and the fruit came up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that those things are exciting. And another thing, did you know we've got a book out?
SPEAKER_04I have seen this book, and I love this book. This this book, I think, will uh batter people's hearts with the the three-person god.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, well that's thrilling, a thrilling initiative. The um you know Roy Crown? He had this brilliant idea of bringing out this Queen book last year, the servant queen and the king she serves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, how many do that sell? I mean, or not sell, but the distribute.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's they that the the first run was a hundred thousand. Now you probably know a successful Christian book in this country, what, 10, 20? Yeah. What do you what would you say?
SPEAKER_04I've I've heard people say 3,000. Like 3,000, you've done all right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So they went 100,000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the thing is, Roy, he for a year he's had a lifetime of serving churches. And so when he said to people, this is what we're doing at the moment, people said, Roy's doing it, we'll go for that. And it went, and they got rid of a hundred thousand copies, the profits from which they invested into another hundred thousand, which invested into another they went to a million. Yeah, million. A million copies. If you ask any Christian in this country if they've seen that book, they will probably say yes. Sure. And many non-believers. Yeah. But it gave me an idea because this year is the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, and I thought, now Michael Reeves, he writes rich, glorious short books. Yeah, yeah. And I said, Michael, how about we copy this model? And he said, I'm supposed to be writing something else. I'll write this first. So that was great. So he he wrote a beautiful text, and um, and Jonathan Carswell, who's wonderful at 10 of those, he just says, just get it out there, we'll we'll deal with all the practicalities that he says, just get it out there, which is wonderful. And we had a lovely designer, David Gibson, and it is a this book has come out, Freedom Movement, which I think is a great little title, and it tells a story of what Luther discovered. Yeah, and because he he it's a story again of someone who's in the darkness of his own soul, and he's thinking, where where are from where will the light come?
SPEAKER_04Right. I love the way it starts. Do you have a copy of it? I I love that you know he he discovered the secret of happiness that we are loved, not because we are good, no, but not because we're beautiful, but we're beautiful because we're loved.
SPEAKER_02There you go. I love that. That's right, and that's straight out of Lucer. I love the fact that these guys like Reeves and so on, they f and your good self find treasures by digging. I love it. Isn't that wonderful? It's like a you know, a good pastor on a Sunday does the same with the text of the Bible. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But just think about yeah, you're beautiful because you're loved, you're not loved because you're beautiful. And just finding that connection point with people because I mean, obviously, this is a message we need today, because we we think that we will only be loved if we are beautiful, if we make ourselves. Absolutely right. If we make ourselves famous, if we take enough selfies on Instagram and get enough enough likes, then we'll be but no, we'll we are loved and therefore, you know, become beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or responses, you know. I think it goes both ways, right? Because he's he's pointing out these these guys who are really rich in the gospel, they really were rich in the gospel, and they were not rich in the gospel work. You know, there's a there was a blend. Anyway, yeah, so that that jolly uh he he tells a story of what um Luther discovered, and then he tells a story of how it uh flourished in the world. And but one one thing which he does so beautifully and responsibly, he goes so he goes straight to the arts, you know, J.S. Bark and how music flourished, but then he keeps coming back to and this is what that guy said about Christ, and this is and then Tyndale and he's translating the Bible, but this is what he said about Christ. You see, and and what happens is by the end of it, you see, God, this message has changed the world. Yes, but it's comp because Michael is a responsible writer, it's completely non-cringy. You can give it away to someone and say, I always find it frustrating when someone tells you, I don't believe in Christianity, and you and they don't know anything about Christianity. Right. They don't know the gospel. Yeah, and you say you can say, This is what we actually, this is what we actually believe, you know. And you can give it to someone saying, It's a responsible thing, and they could they can't say, you know, it looks a bit twee, because it's really it's like that. Yeah, it's written so attractive, it just falls off the page. I had to edit it, and it was like taking a chisel to a Michelangelo. You can't really improve on it, it was beautiful. And um, yeah, and then and then at the end of it, you think, well, it's you'd be hard pressed to not to find something, some fault with it. Yeah, because it's uh it's a lovely gospel thing. And how do you hope it's gonna be used? The hope is, and one thing which Roy said to me, which I which just rang in my ears throughout the whole project, was he says, No one gave away the Queen Book who hadn't read it first. So I'm hoping, just like they did with the Queen Book, churches will buy it and that congregations will read it. And I frankly think a lot of unbelievable, a lot of believers in churches will find it so encouraging, but then they will find it to be, like the Queen Book, a fantastic thing to give away. The Reformation's being talked about on the radio, on the TV. Do people still use radios and TV? The radio, the wireless, the wireless. But yes, that so people are talking about the um the Reformation, but no one's talking about the gospel, of course. Yeah, and the Reformation conferences are for believers, bless them. Yeah, but this is for this uses the uh the evangelistic opportunity to say, oh, that Reformation thing, yeah, you heard about it. It is a thing about it.
SPEAKER_04Because how do you navigate the waters of oh, it was a big punch up? And isn't this the problem with religion that you had this massive blood birth for the next hundred years and Europe was just thrown into turmoil because of this freedom movement? Have you had any sort of pushback in that kind of way? Or isn't it a divisive thing? Isn't it an anti-Catholic thing? How do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh Michael was so wise in the way he dealt with that because of course people are gonna say the whole Catholic thing. But he says, look, if Luther had just been a corrective to Catholicism, he would have been forgotten in ten years. The fact is he touched something eternal. Right. And that's where that's what um reader's bringing to our attention. And he's he he is quite responsible in the way that he recognises that the people, of course, were foolish in in the middle of it all. But in the middle of uh but the key thing is that they saw the glory of this gospel. Yeah, yeah. So it's a wonderful desiring God are putting it out in America, which is thrilling. Piper's written a lovely little um recommendation. And in this country, ten of those are putting it out, and it's all it's designed to be given away. And everyone who's read it says, My heart has been strangely warmed.
SPEAKER_00Strangely warmed. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_04And are you doing anything reformation-based as we get closer to October?
SPEAKER_02Yes, the London Reformation 500 conference will be uh hosted by Christian Heritage London. Gary Williams, Ken Brownell, Pete Woodcock, and oneself. And uh we're gonna Ken has had a brilliant idea as well as having talks on justification and talks on the bondage of the whale and talks on Luther's life and and some of the stuff which we've been talking about in terms of the uh ripple effects. He's also looked at how uh other things were flavored by the Reformation music. So we're gonna have a um someone's gonna play uh some a Bark Cantata, we've got a lovely ensemble doing some of that. We're gonna sing Wesley hymns, which come directly from the Reformation, and we're gonna have, as part of the conference, our City of London walk. So it's gonna be a pretty cool little thing. So you can say, This is what happened, and it happened here. Yeah, yeah. Which I think I do hope will be of great encouragement to people. Yeah, so that's a big old thing. And it's hand in glove with our whole uh raison d'et because we're serving people with reminding them of these stories.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's great to hear about, and I do hope that uh loads of people get a whole box of freedom movements for their churches. You can get a box, a hundred for a hundred quid. Is that is that the sort of deal you get?
SPEAKER_02If you can only get a hundred, bless you.
SPEAKER_04A mere one hundred, whatever you do that. And uh read it and pass it on cheerfully and prayerfully to friends and uh see how the gospel goes viral from that.
SPEAKER_02Amen.
SPEAKER_04Like that. Well, Ben, thank you so much for spending time on the Evangelist Podcast. We hope to have you back.
SPEAKER_02Oh, bless your heart. It's been lovely and a great honour to talk to another Eastbourne. Good morning.
SPEAKER_03Good. Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that was Ben Virgo from Christian Heritage London. If you'd like uh a link to the book, uh you can find it on our website. It's uh speaklife.org.uk slash tep. That's the podcast page, and then if you find this episode, um there'll be links there to to find the book and uh to get yourself some copy and uh hand them out to friends and yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And get some links to Christian Heritage London. I mean it's great you uh you know if you subscribe to like their Facebook page, if you like their Facebook page, then you'll get all sorts of just interesting, you know, this day in history. Uh yes Lewis, you know, embarked on writing the screw tape letters or something, you know. Um and so he'll yeah, he'll he'll always keep you up to date with what's happening in history uh that has a little gospel edge for you, which I I think uh can be some good ways in to uh some conversations.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. So uh what's happening next week on the Avengers Podcast?
SPEAKER_04We are returning to our series of surprising gospel strategies. So uh yes, such gospel strategies as boast more. Um we will we will we'll I've thought of tomorrow easy. The cogs are whirring on this side of the uh of the studio as well. So, yes, more more surprising gospel strategies. And then uh when the podcast uh from unbelievable drops as well, we'll um we'll Unbelievable. Unbelievable? Unbelievable we'll talk about that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, good. Well, uh if you want to get the next episode, make sure that you subscribe to the podcast if you're not already. Just go to uh speaklife.org.uk slash tep and we'll you'll find the subscribe links there. You could leave us a rating review on iTunes and Stitcher if you would be so inclined to. We would be very, very pleased. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, and see you next time. See you guys.