Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Justin Briley.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. It's the show where we look at all sorts of different things concerning telling the good news about Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley and uh you're Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_02I am. I continue to be Glenn Scrivener. It's relentless. It never gives in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So uh what is the point of the Evangelist Podcast?
SPEAKER_02The point of the Evangelist Podcast is to equip everyday Christians in everyday life for sharing Jesus in everyday ways. How about that? Yeah, good. I just came up with that. That's very good. What a world spot.
SPEAKER_01Um and we've had interviews, we've had uh theological discussions, and we've we've looked at uh how-tos. Yes. Such as how to speak to uh Muslims, how to speak to Jehovah's Witnesses, and all sorts of Mormons. Yep. So that's also something that Justin Briley has done. Yes. Because he he's uh a presenter on Premier Radio and he's done something similar with his programme Unbelievable. Yes. And you caught up with him recently?
SPEAKER_02I did. Well I was invited onto the Unbelievable show, which was a great honour, um, to debate uh somebody called Masharraf Hussein, um uh a Muslim apologist, and uh we can talk about that later on when that particular programme from Unbelievable airs. It'll probably air at the end of August. But I I debated Masharraf Hussein on the topic of uh the Trinity in the Old Testament. But uh yeah, so Justin invited me up onto the program and I took the opportunity to to grab him and uh to yeah ask him some questions about this great new book that he's just come out with, which is really a reflection back upon the last ten years of the Unbelievable program. Um so he's been uh chatting mainly with atheists, but also with people from other faiths about Christianity, and he sort of pits a Christian and a non-Christian against each other. Okay. And he is the sort of the ireneic pouring, you know, oil on troubled waters, you know, man in the middle. Very, very he's he's a crystal clear thinker, and um but he does a brilliant job of being a kind of an a neutral moderator between the Christian and the non-Christian guest, and and I think that's why he's gathered such a following over the years that he has he's been fair to I mean, obviously Premier Christian Radio is Christian radio, and so those who come into the studio to debate there they must feel like they're on sort of foreign soil. They're they're playing away from home, as it were. But I I I think he is a very fair host of the program and uh and often puts um very sharp questions to the Christian uh apologist on the on the program, and and that's why he's gathered a a real following from unbelievers of all stripes, but uh in particular uh atheists um listen to the program in in great numbers. So I think it's interesting that I think Justin Briley is is perhaps one of the evangelists in the UK who reaches more unbelievers than any other. Right. And when you think of an evangelist, you might you might instantly think of a J. John, or you might instantly think of a Rico Tice or a Roger Carswell or something. Um I think we should also think of a Justin Briley. He really is reaching unbelievers. And uh he tells in our interview, and he tells in this book that's just come out, um, some great stories about people encountering a reasonable faith in Jesus and and through the program and through wrestling with questions, coming to faith in Christ themselves. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So he's come out with his book Unbelievable. What what what's the thrust of this then?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's great. So why, after ten years of talking with atheists, I'm still a Christian. Uh it's been published by SBCK, and people can get it from all good books, bookstores now. But really, it's it's a it's a great read. He weaves together his own journey to faith and then his own journey with the program over the last ten years. And he tells stories about um, you know, great conversations with Richard Dawkins and great conversations with Darren Brown, and and and in weaving together these different stories, he's also able to put together a compelling case uh for why we might believe in Jesus. And so, yeah, I've read the book, liked the book, endorsed the book. Uh, I think it's something that uh Christians should read and pass on to non-Christians. But uh perhaps we should hear Justin and uh his account of the book and why people should read it.
SPEAKER_01Okay. This is Justin Briley then, and your interview with him.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm here with Justin Briley in the uh the underbelly of uh Premier Radio. This is where the magic happens, the magic factory, uh, where Justin has interviewed. How many people have you interviewed on on Unbelievable?
SPEAKER_05On Unbelievable, um well, we've had over five hundred podcast episodes. We've had more episodes altogether, if you include, before we were a podcast. On average, about two people per episode. Amazing. I guess that's you know, well into the well over a thousand people. Well over a thousand.
SPEAKER_02So it's been going Unbelievable's been going for about eleven years, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Eleven and a half years now. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And it's the the sort of the the subject, or it's kind of the uh the dew point around which your ideas about Christianity and atheism have kind of coalesced into this book, uh Unbelievable why after ten years of talking with atheists I'm still a Christian. Um tell me, where did where did this book come from and why why did you want to send it out into the world?
SPEAKER_05Well, I guess after over ten years of doing the show and having had all these conversations between Christians and non-Christians, I felt like there was an interesting story to be told there, first of all, just about how the show came to be, um, the fact that it started to get picked up not just by Christians listening to it on the radio, but atheists and agnostics and people of other faiths through the podcast. Um, and generally the way in which I think we need to reboot good conversations in culture, uh especially around faith, where it's been very divisive and shrill for a long time. Uh so that was one aspect I just thought there's an interesting story to be told. And I I also wanted to tell my story of how that those conversations have affected my faith. Um and why, as the the subtitle says, after having heard all of these objections from some of the world's leading sceptics, I still think Christianity makes amazing sense of life, the universe, and everything. Um, because I think a lot of Christians run scared from having conversations with atheists or people who have hard questions. And uh I think it's a shame because although it can be quite, you know, you take some knocks along the way, I actually think that you actually develop a much tougher, more confident faith once you have actually engaged a bit and realized actually, as much as there's lots of questions, um when you put it side by side with the other worldviews out there, Christianity has this amazing tenacity and strength to it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you you do do that and and you've interviewed what what proportion would you say have you interviewed in terms of atheists as opposed to other faiths?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So the one sort of thing that you always find, more or less on the show, is a Christian voice. Now that maybe Christians are different kinds, but the other person is always either an atheist, an agnostic, or someone of another faith, or another Christian sometimes. Um but on average, in terms of the the shows, probably um sixty or seventy percent I would guess are are very often atheist slash agnostics. Yes. Um we do do you know debates with Muslims. Yes. We are going to be doing one very shortly. What? I am sorry, okay to land that on you. Um but and we've obviously done debates with Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, lots of other faith expressions. Um but the one that's tended to be central has been the atheist Christian dialogue.
SPEAKER_02Because I guess the unbelievable show it's it's overlapped really with this time in which we've seen the growth of the new atheism and that sort of thing. Um I guess when did The God Delusion come out? 2006? It was 2005, I think.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, 2006. No, 2006, apologies. And yes, so just just under a year after the show began, actually. And very quickly, Richard Dawkins' name, which had already been being bandied around anyway, um, became one of the most common reference points on the show from that point onwards. And so, in a sense, his book came out really at the point where the new atheism was becoming sort of was was uh just about to reach its nadir, in a sense, and I think he uh encapsulated a lot of that way of thinking about the the life in the universe and so on.
SPEAKER_02How do you feel about that in terms of um I you you say in the book that you know your friends are the same as my friends, that they might say, I guess I'd describe myself as an atheist, but and you know how they're gonna finish the sentence.
SPEAKER_05You're not one of those ones.
SPEAKER_02I'm not like Richard Dawkins. So how how do you feel about that when so probably the majority of our friends who are not believers, they wouldn't necessarily identify with the Richard Dawkins brand of atheism. Now it's important to respond to that brand of atheism, but how do we avoid giving the impression that that is where the centre of the conversation lies?
SPEAKER_05Well, it in some ways it's it's very often where culturally the conversation lies, because you tend to find that it's the most opinionated people who tend to garner the most column inches. And so um very often what you're seeing flying around online uh are the Rich Dawkins types of atheism. So you inevitably I think you you you end up responding to those because those are what tend to be in the public sphere the most. However, at a personal level, yes, on average, most people that I meet tend to not be, you know, flying that particular flag. They they tend to be saying, um, I I actually disagree with the way he does that or whatever. Um, and I think what's important is is to get that balance is to actually feature on the programme, for instance, uh a variety of people. So you don't just get on the uh the people like Dawkins and so on. I mean, they are good, obviously, y with my kind of a show, I I've got that tension between wanting to create some kind of a a dynamic, you know, of conflict because that's you know, is in interesting to listen to and so on. You don't just want lots of people who essentially agree with each other, but at the same time, I don't want to misrepresent that that's all that exists. There are lots of different kinds of atheists and agnostics out there, some of whom, you know, almost want to be people of faith, you know, see a massive the you know, see some wonderful things about Christianity, but just have never quite been able to bring themselves to believe. Yes. And I think it it it would be dangerous to suggest that, oh, they're all like Dawkins because they're not.
SPEAKER_02But I think that's what the show provides as well, is that in the context in which the culture is saying it is Dawkins versus the faith heads, um, yes, you might want to have a discussion that's that's fiery and all that sort of stuff, but you're a very irenic figure, and you do you do believe in conversations, and I think you do foster this space in which people can can chat things through about that. What do you think it is about about yourself and your own faith commitments that allows you to invite some of the the harshest critique of Christianity in without flinching, without running away?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think I don't want it to sound arrogant, but I think if you if you've got a fairly confident faith yourself, you can hear um strong objections to faith without necessarily feeling like you're personally being attacked or that you have to step in and correct them and so on. And so there's a sense in which I I feel like the s the the more confident you are in your own faith, the more open you are to hearing critiques of that faith. I think the where you have the problem is people who who when they hear an objection, they re respond out of fear, and that can tend to be when you hear people getting shouty or aggressive or um running away, you know. It's a fight or flight kind of response very often with Christians, isn't it? When they hear something that that challenges them personally, challenges their identity as a Christian, maybe. And for me, um it's so important, that's kind of what I want to do with the book, is say, let's get out of this bubble that we often put ourselves in, because so often where I've seen people lose their faith, it's because they'd surrounded themselves in a bubble and suddenly it pops and they sort of are left flailing. Whereas I think if you kind of do the work actually of of kind of in a in a careful way getting out of your bubble, you can actually develop a m, as I say, a much stronger faith, which which is fully aware of all the objections there are, but also fully aware of the strength of the responses that exist to it. Um and so for me that's kind of been where I've been. I mean, early on in the show, you know, I'm I'm not going to pretend I've always had this Teflon approach to where no objection ever, you know, ever marks me, sort of thing. Certainly when I was pretty green around the years, you know, when I didn't know many of the you know where the debates lay and and how to respond and so on, certainly there there were things which were, you know, wow, eye-opening, oh I hadn't heard it put like that. Um I guess just at the very beginning, you know, having critiques put to me of the way the New Testament came together, whether we can trust the documents, um just just really kind of cogent emotional versions of the problem of evil and suffering, you know, where where you just don't know what to say when someone puts it like that. All of but M and M and you know uh but I think what engaging with that and just being patient and trying to sort of continually have those conversations and and hearing from a variety of ways of responding to it, I think it it has given me a sense of um being able to filter over time, okay, yes, I know where that person's coming from. That particular way they're putting that argument is is a version of this argument, and and there are actually some good responses to that. And I just feel like sometimes it's about Christians tooling up almost to to make themselves aware and familiar with what the arguments are out there and and how to respond. And the longer you do that for, I think, the more you kind of build up that confidence.
SPEAKER_02Your journey to faith it reminds me really of of Anselm a thousand years ago, he said it's faith-seeking understanding. That's that's what we're trying to do. We believe and then uh and then understand the the the basis on which we believe and and go out into the world on the basis of those faith commitments. And that sounds kind of like your faith journey. I mean you you sort of came to a personal faith in your teenage years, is that right?
SPEAKER_05That's right. So sort of mid to late teens, I had what I would describe as my conversion experience, and and that was certainly an experiential, subjective, personal, spiritual experience that you know brought me to the place of believing that that Jesus was who he said he was, and uh putting my trust in him essentially. But I was also, you know, an intellectually engaged uh person, and and as I went through my later teens and university years, I obviously met plenty of objections to faith. Um at which point I was having to start to say, okay, this is where my heart is. Can my head catch up with that as well, and actually provide some kind of intellectual um sort of foundation as well for for what I've kind of really feel is so true in my heart, if you know what I mean. Right. Um I think lots of Christians go through life without having to do that all that much necessarily, and it does remain a a a heart issue primarily. And I'd and I'd rather it was a heart issue than a head issue, if I'm honest, if you've got to choose between the two. But I don't think we do have to choose between the two, obviously. I think I think um when you bring them together, then you've got something truly powerful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So how do you bring them together in the book? Uh take us take us through the the sort of the journey that you want to take your your readers on as you seek to introduce them to your faith.
SPEAKER_05Well, essentially I do it by sort of uh looking at some of the key objections that are levelled against Christian faith, against God. I guess um in the course of the chapters I uh build my case for God kind of cumulatively as we go along. And so having outlined why I think the conversations are important, the effect they've had on me, I then sort of start to sort of particularly spell out some of the ways in which I think God is a the best explanation of human existence. So you know, that's kind of the chapter on science essentially where we're we're looking at why are we here, you know. Is there any evidence that we're meant to be here, that we're purposed in some way? And I think there is quite a lot of good evidence for that that that goes in the direction of a mind behind the universe rather than this just being a you know something that came from nowhere and is is heading into oblivion. Um but then I look sort of within ourselves at you know, this idea we seem to have this universal idea of of human value. Um and again, for me, theism grounds that far better than atheism. Um and then equally purpose, this kind of universal search for ultimate meaning, transcendent purpose and so on. And again, that for me is far m works far more with the Christian worldview than than an atheistic one. So I sort of I make this cumulative case for for God on that basis, and then say, well, if we are yeah, this is classic apologist stuff really, uh I'm not doing anything terribly new, but if there is a God, how would that God choose to reveal himself to us? And I make the case that that it is in Jesus Christ. Um and not by exhaustively examining all the other options on the table, but saying if we can show that Jesus existed, was who he said he was, and rose from the dead, we've unlocked the the door to the right answer, if you like.
SPEAKER_02We've got a lovely little illustration about you know a bunch of keys and you don't know which one.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I it's that the um so the church, my my wife's the minister at I I have a bunch of keys, you know, because I I get to let myself in there. But they all look very similar for the front. There's there's a bunch of keys that open all kinds of doors inside the church, and they all look the same as the front door key as well. So sometimes I'm there trying out several keys uh on the the the before I find the right one. But if I the simple analogy I make is that um uh if I find the front door key the first time and it opens, then I'm not gonna search all the other keys and check if they also worked. And similarly, I think if you find something that tells you this is the truth, you don't have to exhaustively search all the other religions that are out on the table in order to know that you found the the the truth about God. Having said that, we do obviously on the show examine Islam and Hinduism and Judaism and and there's a value in that. I'm not saying we shouldn't ever look at look at other options on the table, but I do think that um I do meet some non-Christians who say, Oh, how do you know you've got the right God? You know, you you might make a case for God, how do you know you've got the right one? Um there's so many options out there, and as though you know you could never know. And and I think you can know. I think you can know simply because there's enough good evidence to show that Jesus is the the manifestation of God in flesh. Um and whether you do or don't know about the other options on the table, if you've got the right option, then then you're set.
SPEAKER_02Just last night on Twitter, where else on Twitter, but we had this back and forth with with an atheist who says, well, maybe there is some kind of deist God, maybe there is some kind of, as you described, a mind behind the universe. But come on, this crucified Jew who shot his mouth off two thousand years ago in Bronze Age civilization, him really?
SPEAKER_05What do you what do you say to that? Well, it it's kind of the same criticism that Dawkins made in in what was a memorable debate he had with John Lennox when they were debating at the Natural History Museum in Oxford, and he said something essentially very similar. Look, I might be persuaded by these nice cosmological, you know, sophisticated arguments for God, but you know, a Jewish, you know, failed Messiah in a backwater of Nazareth or whatever, you know, it's also he he's he described it as provincial, was what he described it as. Um and I I put that to Tom Wright once, actually, in an interview with Tom Wright, and he said, Isn't that fascinating? Because actually, if you go to Jerusalem, you realise this is the centre of it all. This is if Ed if God was gonna do something in history, in human history, it would happen here. That's interesting. Um, which which was one interesting way of putting it. Uh because I think there's a certain sort of almost cultural arrogance on Dawkins' part. He should have shown up in Oxford. He should have exactly, you know, um where else would he go? North Oxford. It didn't say it's been the same from day one, hasn't it? You know, um Jesus didn't appear you know in the halls of Herod, he he appeared in a in in a kind of um a stable. Uh so there's a sense in which I think um partly that's just our cultural arrogance, assuming that the way God would would or wouldn't act, you know, that's that's a huge amount of um supposition on our part for one thing. Right. But I think fundamentally the story of Christianity is of a God who is both the most awesome thing you can think of, who we could reflect on uh for eternity in terms of the philosophical and scientific and everything else. But he's also the God who uh comes in the most simple poverty-stricken human part, you know, of the world. Um and yet he has had more impact than any other single person in human history from that starting point. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Astonishing for such a provincial figure, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Another thing is, you know, sometimes the the thing is, oh why did God wait so long to come, you know, uh why why but it's funny, I don't talk about this in the book really, but in a sense, that moment in history, 2000 years ago, was just the point at which if you're going to start a revolution around the world, you might have a chance of it actually spreading because the Romans had built a a network of roads. The early churches could communicate with letters. There it was like um the critical mass was there, the way and when God steps in, suddenly he sets the whole thing alight.
SPEAKER_02Which is one of the things you say in chapter six about you know why should we trust the resurrection? Well, there seems to have been this big bang that was unleashed on Easter Sunday that you know the church has just absolutely exploded globally from this some kind of phenomenon happened on the third day after this you know Jesus was laid in the tomb. What is that? Uh I think you make a really good case for resurrection there.
SPEAKER_05So, this has definitely been one of the big revelations for me in the course of you. know over ten years of doing the programme is the strength of evidence for the resurrection. Now, I don't say that we should always yeah, our faith is not based purely on the historical reliability of the scriptures or the kind of the best arguments we can make. But having said that, I think God in his grace has given us an incredibly good historical record and evidence for what is fundamentally the most important event in in human history, the resurrection. And for me that that was a big uh moment of realization that you don't have to just believe in the resurrection purely on quote unquote faith or blind faith if you like, or just because you know he lives within my heart as the as the old Sankey hymn goes. But that actually there is an extraordinary wealth of uh evidence that seems to point towards some major event um happening in the first century that did produce this extraordinary movement called the church. It's a you know as my friend Andy Bannister puts it a resurrection shaped whole at that point in time and um I utilize what has often been called the minimal facts argument which uh if you go to people like Mike Lacona and Gary Habermas and others have have been at the forefront of developing this, which is not a uh an approach to the resurrection which depends on you assuming the truth of scripture, the the the inspiration or or uh inerrancy or anything like that. It's simply d doing doing things on the same grounds as any historian would do in terms of saying um what what do generally the majority of historians in this area agree are historically attestable facts if you like, the the things that we can know. Plenty we can disagree on but what are the things that that generally are uh are are seen as across the board reliable views of this time and place. And and what you end up with is different people have different sets of facts about but I list about four or five key things that um the vast majority of historians believing or non-believing do do um see as as being true at the time.
SPEAKER_02Such as Jesus died. Yeah that's a pretty important one the tomb was empty am I remembering this right?
SPEAKER_05So that would be the discovery of the empty tomb by a group of Jesus's women followers so that's another minimal fact if you like and that's because it's attested by all four of the gospels and there's other reasons why that comes across as a historically likely fact because it would have been an embarrassing thing in a sense in that time and culture for women to be the first discoverers of the tomb in a in a in a patriarchal culture yet today that actually functions in its favour for historically speaking as something you wouldn't make up therefore it's unlikely to be untrue that that this is in the in the record as it were the uh yeah and then there's the accounts of people who believe they were having experiences of the risen Christ again that is something that agnostic historians like Bart Ehrman James Crossley and others will say yeah they believe people actually had experiences they would believe were of the risen Christ. They say that's that's pretty historically a fact you know um and then you've got um the the conversion of certain sceptics obviously Paul um James Brother of Jesus and the explosive growth of the Christian church which you mentioned so these are the some of the facts I I marshal and if there's a broad based agreement across the scholarship believing and non-believing that that these things happened then you kind of have to ask what's the best explanation for them. Now unless you have a predetermined reason why you cannot accept a miraculous explanation for something then the natural fit for all those facts is the one that was given at the time and that Jesus had resurrected from the dead. And so for me I think that's an amazing thing that you can take these minimal facts and say there's a really good argument that what they were saying was true. And I go into some detail then about why those agnostic Bible scholars I mentioned like Ehrman and Crossley and others don't take that view.
SPEAKER_02Yes what do you do with someone like James Crossley and and you know you can take him to to water but you can't make him drink in in terms of Trevor Burrus Yeah it's an interesting one.
SPEAKER_05I mean I don't want to try and second guess James's motives particularly on this but what he has said is that he doesn't think when it comes to history you can give miraculous explanations. And I think the worry is that would let in all kinds of miraculous explanations for all kinds of events.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus Where is that item of dogma written? I'd love to see that religious text. I know one must not allow God a foot in the door.
SPEAKER_05Because what that means is that fundamentally then you have to say history is a fundamentally kind of materialist um explanation of things. Because you you're replacing one assumption about the way things can be with another assumption that that no miraculous explanation that there is no God essentially. And Bart Emin takes the same view. But for me that sort of well then you know obviously no you you'll never get a supernatural explanation for anything on that kind of a a footing. Sure. Any naturalistic explanation however far-fetched would be better you know as an explanation of of these facts than the resurrection. Exactly so so at that point I think you're you're at the point where you have to say okay well let's examine why we've got this assumption that we have to function on the basis that no supernatural events occur. And I don't think there is a good reason for doing that. I think that if that's where the evidence leads you should be open to it. And if there's any candidate for me in the history of the world really for whom these kinds of events might coalesce around it is Jesus Christ. I think I don't think this means we let in all kinds of supernatural explanations for all kinds of things because all those other things don't have nearly the kind of weight of evidence that this one does. Right. So I think we can be you know we can assume you know as a rule of thumb that generally speaking things happen for naturalistic causes. We don't have to always be assuming there might be some miraculous explanation for this historical event. But when you have something like the resurrection I think you're you're dealing with something which is crying out for the explanation that they gave.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely so we've thought a little bit about how do we bridge from theism to the person of Jesus and we thought a little bit about how you go from facts the minimal facts historical facts of the resurrection to how do you press someone towards faith with those kinds of potential gear changes what it what is your view of the place of apologetics the limits of apologetics and and how it fits in an overall proclamation of the gospel?
SPEAKER_05Well this is kind of where I land with the final chapter really because I think as much as my uh 10 plus years of doing the show have taught me all the immense value of apologetics it's also taught me the limits of apologetics as well and I think we need to be serious about that because I think some people maybe those people who are more is it right or left brained I never remember which side is your your analytical side and so on. But apologetics definitely appeals to a certain type of personality who like to have evidence and things kind of all rationally worked out but it can become a bit of an idol as well because it then it's it kind of can get to that place where you basically believe you've got God worked out in this intellectual box and all you need to do is present this to other people and if they're as rational as you they should accept otherwise then it goes yeah. But we know that's not the way life works. People are a mixture of rationale, emotion, um all kinds of other factors playing into who they are and why they believe what they believe. And I think we have to simply just accept that that no one's going to accept Christ purely on the basis of an argument in my view. That there's always something in the heart going on there's a spiritual dimension to everything that happens and uh we we forget that our peril in apologetics and um far too often what I see I think the danger of apologetics is um people go off into this very intellectual space where it becomes about winning arguments and really rarely of people thinking about the person involved or or or have the right motivations often at heart. And I'm as guilty as that of anyone when I when I get on Facebook and want to just have a good old Barney with someone. I'm not thinking um good God loves this person, died for them. I'm thinking I I I really want to win this argument. How do I justify it's so easy yeah completely. So I think I think we just have to be really careful to to make sure that as Christians if we're into apologetics we understand its limits and we understand that it's just as important to pray for that person as it is to debate them. Right. That God doesn't you know God's involved in this process not just your intellectual acumen. Yes and that I think is a really important thing to to kind of bring us down a peg or two. I mean I I really like I couldn't quote it off the top of my head but C.S. Lewis who's you know easily one of the best apologists of any generation and his um The apologist evening prayer is a wonderful little poem where he just says after all my clever arguments just help me to remember that none of this is actually about me and my clever arguments and and it it's a wonderful reminder that if we make apologetics the end game we've we've missed the point completely.
SPEAKER_02So where have you seen this program um working well in in that sort of sense and and where where where have you seen uh things that have gotten a little bit uh too spicy for for comfort?
SPEAKER_05Well inevitably the program works it depends what sense you mean the program works well. I mean if you're just talking about the most engaging listenable you know exciting episodes then in a sense you do want that drama and that spark of it. Bring on Robert Spencer. But inevitably the ones that generate more heat than light aren't actually that helpful very often even if they're quite exciting. So we have had some of those episodes the one you just were referencing there was uh a debate between uh a Muslim Adnan Rashid and uh Robert Spencer who's uh quite you could say uh let you know on the more extreme end of of the kind of um apologetics to Muslims um and he was making the case against the historicity of Muhammad which is quite a yeah a big claim to make anyway that got very uh shouty and insulty I had to stop the recording and tell them to calm down and even after we did that and the the show went out um a lot of unbelievable listeners said I just I couldn't get through that one Justin it was too it was too much yes that was that was spongy wasn't that yes was on the line and that was probably just as well were there were there other un uncomfortable ones where you were definitely there'd definitely been ones where you could cut the air with a knife. I mean we did a this was an interChristian debate um on homosexuality between Robert Gagnon and Jane Ozanne. Also definitely very emotive um and again it's it's when personal aspects start to creep into the way that things are put that um you you know you it's whether you're playing the ball or the man as they say you know and so uh though those again but again a very popular show because people they do enjoy hearing drama. It depends on your personality I suppose not everyone does. But then we have other what types you know where you just learn a heck of a lot in the pro course of of hearing a a discussion or debate. Those are probably my favourites when you you might have a difference of opinion but sometimes it's not so chalk and cheese that uh it's always a constant conflict but actually there might be enough they agree on to actually really learn something new about the subject that's that's under discussion.
SPEAKER_02What what is a win? If I mean you've you've famously talked to Richard Dawkins, you've famously talked to Darren Brown. As you walk away from those sorts of conversations what what is a win for you?
SPEAKER_05Yeah it's a really good question. Obviously I'm n I'm never really going in expecting to convert the other side indeed I don't think I ever expect the guests who come on to convert each other. I think the person that we're most trying to influence each side is trying to influence is the the listener and I think they're the person more likely to be open to changing their mind frankly than than people who come in the studio. Darren Brown seem to enjoy our conversation and I think I think if you're someone who is I don't know I I I don't know whether he has got a lot of flack from Christians or not but maybe where the average interaction with a Christian is of a more kind of the Bible says it, that settles it kind of approach to the way to truth then then hopefully having something which is a bit more nuanced um a bit more maybe where thoughtful thoughtful that that's an encouraging thing. So so for me just that it's been a good conversation is usually a win for me. That we've uh done it and remain friendly um not in any way tried to hide our beliefs or be apologetic for them but at the same time been willing to listen and open to each other. I mean th that was an unusual one to Aaron Brown because that was just me and him. Whereas normally I'm the neutral moderator just kind of making sure each side has their say and and engages. Whereas this one was me just in the hotel room with him sitting down for a turned out to be about an hour and a half just chatting about his life, his form of faith why he's an atheist and me sort of trying to gently push back at various points on that. Not quite the usual thing because I didn't want it to be a debate per se. I wanted it to be more an interview with him but I did try to sort of put the other side at various points. I hope so I hope so I mean he's an incredibly intelligent person but even in incredibly intelligent people can still end up living in a bit of an echo chamber. Sure. And I think when you do get opportunities to hear from someone who's a thinking person with different views to you then embrace it. And that goes for both of us you know I I hope that I'm always open to to hearing from people with with alternative opinions.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell But is this the start of a bit of a shift for you? I mean you've been Mr Neutral kind of in between various uh opponents and now with Darren Brown and now with the book especially you're speaking in your own voice.
SPEAKER_05I think it is and it's a scary one because I've been more than comfortable for ten years plus doing the neutral moderator thing. And in a sense that's kind of also what's enabled me to be listened to by both sides myself so a lot of atheists will feel like they get to know me over the course of listening and don't feel like I'm too much sort of banging the drum for one side. They feel like he's not one of those Christians kind of thing. But obviously once I start making the case for Christianity myself and talking about it and even doing some debates and whatever inevitably that's gonna mean that they're gonna hear me sort of yeah being a Christian, being my you know making the case and inevitably that will mean me saying why I disagree with this or that argument for atheism or whatever. And uh and already that's had you know meant that people who you know have been getting in touch saying oh I thought you were a sensible person Justin and now I realise you're just like the rest of them and you you really but the reality is anyone who's listened to the show for any length of time will know I'm a Christian. That's not something I apologise for. I try to be new you know somewhat neutral in the way I moderate the debates but obviously the fact I'm still a Christian after doing all these debates would suggest that I do think there's something in these arguments. I don't think they're all you know I think there are better ones and worse ones obviously and I'm the kind of and what I'm trying to defend in the book is is you know what Lewis calls the mere Christianity really I'm not trying to do much more than defend belief in God, uh Jesus and the resurrection. So for me I would have assumed people would have assumed that's what I believe anyway. So I'm gonna I'm gonna make arguments to defend it. Yeah. But it is an interesting one because because you do move out of um one way of being viewed into a a different one. And I think I'm aware that I'm by putting this out there, putting my case for faith out there, obviously and inevitably and quite rightly so I'm opening myself up much more for criticism. Indeed I understand there is already a task force of atheist listeners preparing a an ebook response to my book which I look forward to seeing at some point. Somebody destroys Justin Briley or it'll be you know I'm the thing is in sixty thousand words and you're trying to cover a lot of stuff I obviously I've I've made in very many ways the barest of cases you know lots of details left out um lots of scholarship that could have been mentioned that hasn't been mentioned. So inevitably uh that you know you're not going to be able to say everything that could be said. And I don't consider myself a brilliant apologist anyway but I I will happily see what they say in response and where I feel I can make a response I'm happy to do that.
SPEAKER_02Well the toothpaste is out of the tube now there's no getting it back. And uh no I I really hope you continue to uh uh proclaim your faith which is a a reasonable faith and an irenic faith and uh one that is not afraid of of of deep questions and deep thought um so I definitely uh commend the book uh to to anyone listening be they Christians who want to tool up on uh apologetics but also uh Christians who want to uh read it and pass it on to a non-Christian friend is that what what is who is the reader well that for you put your um finger on that um I am hoping it will be Christians and non-Christians who pick it up obviously with it being uh the show that it's based on being one that appeals to Christians and non-Christians I've I've always wanted that to be the case.
SPEAKER_05I hope I've been generous enough to the other side that they won't feel they're being misrepresented. Inevitably you can't always do that you know peop people won't always feel that that you've done justice. But what I have had so far in terms of feedback from some non-Christians, agnostics and others has has been very nice um that they didn't feel like it was patronizing or whatever. And I hope that yes if you're a non-Christian it will help to give a a window into why there might be some sense in Christianity some reasons to believe. If you're a Christian I hope it um both challenges and provokes your faith so that um you feel you can go and have conversations you're willing to reach out and look into some of the the the the arguments for and against. And uh and so yeah it's very much hoping to hit both those markets though inevitably I think it's one of those things where it's more likely to be a Christian giving it to a non-Christian than necessarily a a non-Christian buying it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah but I I I think it will I I think it will go out to uh to a lot of uh Christians and equip them it'll go out to non-Christians and uh reveal to them the goodness and the beauty and the truthfulness of Christianity. So thank you so much for the book Justin and thank you for spending some time.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. That was Justin Briley uh talking to you Glenn his book is out available as you've said already um for most good Christian bookshops.
SPEAKER_02That's right and um yeah and do subscribe to the Unbelievable podcast. I mean I really enjoy listening uh each week and uh Emma always knows when I've got my headphones on when I'm listening to Unbelievable because you know I kind of test myself I kind of pause the the recording and try to respond to whatever non-Christian has said and try and have a go and and of course that makes me look like a mad person. I don't know how she tells the difference um me being mad and me being just normal but um no I love I love listening to the Unbelievable podcast and and you come across uh a whole spectrum of views not just atheists and not just the new atheists um as we spoke about in in that interview there's a whole spectrum of people within atheism um and you'll come up against very uh thoughtful responses to the Christian faith and you'll come across very thoughtful justifications and defenses of of of Christian faith on that program and I I think if if you're interested in thoughtfully engaging with people evangelistically um then absolutely the um unbelievable podcast should definitely be subscribed to on your list on your list after us of course but as well as us as well as us yeah it's not a competition. Good okay well what are we gonna do next episode so next episode we're gonna be talking to Ben Virgo uh who uh works for Christian heritage and he's based in London and uh doing a great work of proclaiming the gospel by reminding people of the Christian heritage that we have. And so you know they're based in uh St. Botolf's Aldersgate in uh it's a great name isn't it St. Botulfts known as St. Bot um affectionately by uh its parishioners but uh he's there at St. Botolf's but um it's right there in in the heart of where so much um Christianity has kind of taken hold of the culture and he does these wonderful tours um where he just takes people through and he had Russell Brand the other day you know coming through and he was able to take Russell Brand through this old church and uh and told him the gospel by you like explaining the furniture in this church and then they he prayed with Russell at the end Russell Brand was like so is this when we pray? Wow and then Virgo was like yeah okay and they and they've kept on uh corresponding afterwards and that sort of thing. He's a very interesting guy he's the son of Terry Virgo the founder of the founder of the New Frontiers kind of movement and um and so yeah really interesting upbringing really interesting Christian journey and uh and he's also talking about um how we make the best use of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Um so this October the 31st is five hundred years since Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church which burst this freedom movement. Yes. And that's what he's calling it the Freedom Movement and Mike Reeves has written a book called the Freedom Movement and we're going to talk about ways of making the most of this 500th year anniversary not just to to get interested about history but to make the most of it as a gospel opportunity to proclaim to unbelievers why they should care about this thing and they should care about this thing because it really does bring freedom.
SPEAKER_01Okay well uh that will be next episode on the Evangelist podcast so you need to stay subscribed. If you like the Evangelist podcast and you're a regularist and you'd like to leave us a rating and review you can also do that by going to speaklife.org.uk slash te p and um following the links to give us a rating and review we'd be very pleased if you could do that for us. And we do have uh a rating um and review from our friend Josh Williamson. Josh Williamson who's been on the podcast twice he's been on it and he's finally rating it yes so evangelistic edification he says this podcast is a must listen for all who are interested in evangelistic work. So thanks very much Josh.
SPEAKER_02One and a half stars yeah thank you Josh It was a five star wasn't it oh yeah oh yeah we don't we don't want to deal with anything less than five stars we're not interested it's five star or bust for us. Yeah. Has anyone has anyone dared to give us less than five stars? No don't think so no now someone will now someone is just gonna take on road three pod yeah three stars brilliant podcast yeah three three come on I love subscribing to like one star reviews on TripAdvisor and things like I really like what this one star review on Grand Canyon overblown I was expecting more ingrates people are ingrates anyway that's a good note to finish on don't you think it is yeah so we'll finish there okay