Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Tom Schmidt about using meetup in evangelism.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We've been doing a series on surprising gospel strategies.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Like lock your church door, for instance. That's a surprising strategy.
SPEAKER_01And move on.
SPEAKER_03Move on. Move on, Andy. So yes, we've moved on.
SPEAKER_01But we're going to take a break for that. We've got another one coming, but uh we're going to take a break for that because we're going to talk to Tom Schmidt about using meet up in evangelism.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01How did you meet Tom Schmidt?
SPEAKER_03We met up, uh, appropriately enough, uh, on mission together uh for St. Mary's Wooden, a great church in Bedfordshire. You were doing a mission there.
SPEAKER_01How did that go?
SPEAKER_03It went really, really well. Uh we did Story, obviously. Okay. What else are we going to do? It's 2017. Of course we're going to do Story as our big branding. And uh so I interviewed a few people in the evening, and uh really interesting guy, uh Harvey Thomas, um, who was basically uh uh Margaret Thatcher's spin doctor for many years and sort of led her winning campaigns back in the eighties. And uh he was also uh blown up in the Brighton bombing uh back in eighty-five. And so he yes, he was blown up one story and and fell down three stories, and his body sort of fell on a steel girder and he was buried under ten tons of rubble, and was rescued after a few hours, but uh very famously he then went on to forgive the Brighton bomber. And so we we spoke about his time with Margaret Thatcher, he spoke to talk about him getting exploded, what was that like? And uh and what it is to forgive. And so that really opened up uh opportunities for the gospel. Uh and then spoke the next night to uh a local girl who I've known for actually many, many, many years. Um but uh she grew up in Wootton and uh had a uh a story really of a great personal tragedy, but also how she'd come through that, and it was just wonderful to see sort of the the village come and and hear her story. And as they came to hear her story, she was able to point out members of the congregation and say, you know, this person really helped me at that point, and this person really helped me at that point, and I couldn't have done this without St. Mary's here. And so it was just a it was a wonderful witness to Jesus, but also to Jesus' people in carrying uh her through suffering. And uh and just the the whole the whole week really, it was it was from Thursday to Sunday, and we uh we did loads of events, but it was just wonderful to see a church united together in mission and the wonderful place that it holds in that village life. And so um everybody loves St. Mary, as it seemed to me. You know, we went to the local pub and we did a pint a pint and a chat um event where I spoke for ten minutes on you know why we can believe that Jesus rose from the dead and and uh all the bad lads from Woodn't were there and we we sort of fished them out of the pub out you know, outdoors uh to where I was giving this talk and and sort of got to speak to them, and the the pub landlord and her best friend were there saying, Oh, I want to come to this next event and this next event and signing up for that. And um so it I mean the church just has a real place in the community and it uses that place in the community to speak the good news of Jesus, and uh loads of people came and we sowed loads of gospel seeds and we trust that people are awakened to the love of Jesus and um and are currently being followed up. So uh I drove home from St. Mary's thinking, what a brilliant church, and I d I you know, I I would go here in a flash if I lived anywhere within touching distance of of Wooden. And uh it's great when you can have confidence as an evangelist to invite people to plug into the church where you're speaking from. And it's great to be able to have that kind of confidence to say, yeah, keep coming. You're gonna hear the gospel, you're gonna be well loved, you're gonna meet Jesus. And I think all those things are true of St. Mary's Wooden.
SPEAKER_01And so you met uh Tom Schmidt there. He he w was also sort of uh you know, contributing to the Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So he's he's a pastor in uh the States. He's uh with Acts 29 and the Southern Baptist uh convention. So together, um uh with with uh um those two bodies, he's kind of ch uh planting a church in the sh uh suburbs of Chicago in a suburb called Naperville. And uh and he's been a long time listener of the the Evangelist Podcast and and uh and he's actually sorry. Sorry, Tom. Well he no, he loves it, and uh he's put into practice some of the things that we've said on the podcast um all the way over in Illinois. So how fun that he has come and joined me on mission uh in Woodon. And as we got chatting, um I got to hear about this brilliant idea he's had for outreach in Chicago, and uh and so yeah, he's kind of returning the favour. So the the the Evangelist Podcast has blessed him. Uh but now he's got some great wisdom about how to use Meetup as an evangelistic tool, and we want to share it with you guys.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's great. Well uh let's take a listen then. Uh this is you talking to Tom Schmidt uh last week.
SPEAKER_03So I'm here with Tom Schmidt, uh, all the way from Chicagoland, Illinois. That's right.
SPEAKER_02Technically Naperville, a western suburb of Chicago. Okay, so what is what is the difference between a suburb of Chicago and Chicagoland? So the Oh, Chicagoland includes the city of Chicago and all of the suburbs. So the city is about a 1.8 million, with all the suburbs, about 8 million people. What's a lot of suburbs? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Wow. So I wonder it gets its own name.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Chicagoland is just a good way to say you cover all the suburbs and the city, um, and you're being you're technically being correct if you live in the suburbs and you say Chicagoland. Okay. If you say you live in Chicago and you only live in the suburbs, then the people in the city uh get unhappy with you. They're unhappy. You have to say Chicagoland or Chicago area. Or Naperville, which is actually the fifth largest city in Illinois. Um and it's uh yeah, it's one of the western suburbs. So and you are a church planter? That's right. I am a church planter. So uh we uh went out there and we're starting a new congregation. Uh plant we're out there planting a church and we've been having services for about a year now. Uh we meet at the DePage Children's Museum, uh, which is in downtown Naperville. And you've been meeting for a year, and how how are things going? Yeah, it's uh church planning's hard work, it's really good work. Uh it's been going really well. So we've been meeting for about a year. Um we've got our first elder candidate. Uh we saw someone come to Faith in Christ this year, uh, getting some good rhythms of discipleship and evangelism and seeing some new people plug in. So it's slow and steady, and uh yeah, we're really we love the venue, and we uh we're really praising God's grace this last year. Tell me about the person who came to faith. What was their story? What was their journey? Uh so they grew up in the church, so they're a child of one of the families that is part of our church. Uh and they've heard the gospel many times, but uh once a month we actually keep uh the children who are older than five but under twelve uh in for the full sermon. Uh most of the time during the sermon they go upstairs for child appropriate uh curriculum. But that was one Sunday that they were in for the whole service, and the Lord just worked in their heart, and that afternoon they went up to their mom and just said, you know, I believe I'm I'm a Christian now, so it's uh amazing. I mean they've heard the gospel many times, but it was uh it was this year that they really placed their faith in Christ and trusted him in him uh as their savior. So that's really cool. Yeah, it's really encouraging, and then we've had other time, other services where we've had the kids in, and you can really see this this young boy, he's he's interested and attentive, and he's eager to love Christ. So yeah, so it's really encouraging. Very exciting. Yep. So tell me about your own faith journey. How did you become a Christian? Yeah, so I grew up uh going to church. I was part of a really liberal episcopal church, and I think I had a lot of the pieces in place intellectually, um, but I didn't love the Lord, and I didn't really hear the gospel preached a lot uh from the pulpit growing up. Um and you know, I uh had had some of I would have said I was a Christian as a teenager, but I didn't really understand Christianity or the gospel. I was really living for relationships with girls, and I was a musician, so I was really living for that and for other things. And then I went to college at the University of Well, so I grew up in Montana, Nevada. I went to the uh the College of University Nevada, Las Vegas. I studied music there. Vegas, baby. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Um I met some Christians actually uh through Campus Crusade for Christ. Right. And they talked about having a personal relationship with God, and they had these meetings, and and part of the meeting was the Bible teaching, but the other part was actually talking about what the Lord was doing in you and the things that you were learning, and I just had never never known the Lord in that way. And so I was meeting these Christians, I was hearing the gospel preached, um, and then it was uh one time I was just I was reading actually through Joshua McDowell's More Than a Carpenter. And at the end of that, there's a prayer to receive Christ as your Lord, and I remember being a freshman, 18 years old, in my dorm room, finishing that book, and then saying, Lord, I don't know if I'm a Christian, um, but I want to be one. And I prayed that prayer, and my life really changed. After that, I started reading the scriptures and I started talking to people about Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I just wanted to worship him and sing, and uh before that talking about church or God or Christianity would have just been strange. Like maybe something you do on a Sunday, but uh after that it was it was a joy, and I wanted to tell other people about him. So that was my freshman year college, and then I got really involved in Campus Crusade for Christ.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And are you fairly soon on thinking this is what I want to do with my life?
SPEAKER_02No. No. No, I mean, well, as as far as uh well, I want Christ to be my life, I want to live for him, but yeah, I never would have guessed I would have been a pastor then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or a church planner. Um You're gonna be a rock star, right? Yeah, you know, actually my freshman year is really humbling because I grew up in a small town and I was the top trumpet player in my small town. Okay. But then you go to the big city and I was the bottom. Right. I was the bottom word. So actually I was quite humble that freshman year. Uh but no, I was I was thinking music, music education. You know, I really enjoyed ministry though, and the more the more I did it, I really just really um could, you know, I was wondering, would the is the Lord calling me into this or not? Um but it wasn't until a few years later when I uh so I did a summer mission project with Crusade, and then I did a year-long mission trip in Edinburgh, Scotland. And so I was doing evangelism and discipleship training at the University of Edinburgh in 2003 or four and five. Uh and it was that year that I really sensed a calling into ministry, so in Scotland. And the Lord used the scriptures to those who've been given much, much will be asked of. Right. And just like the Lord has given me a desire to share the gospel with others, he's given me health, he's given me all these gifts, and I really sensed a burden, like this is what I need to do. Um so I really sensed that calling, but then it was years later, several years later, before I went to theological training and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And it changed your life that year because you met your wife in Edinburgh as well.
SPEAKER_02Yes, so that was the key thing. Um yes, the key highlight for sure that year is I met my wife, who's a a British national, and you know, I I really liked her then, but they had a policy that you're not allowed to date any of the nationals. Yes. So I totally understand why. And I think looking back, I wasn't really mature enough anyway. But uh, you know, I liked her and years later, or we can't we started a friendship then, and then it was several years later that we started really um getting more in touch on Facebook. And pretty soon we were uh messaging each other every day, and then Skype, and then engagement, and then now she's moved over and we're married and have uh two lovely little girls. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_03Yep. And so was church planting always something that you thought was was where you would be?
SPEAKER_02Or um no. You know, I I had uh so I became a Christian when I was 18, and I was living in Vegas, I was a music teacher there, and I had seen church planting attempted several times in a really bad way. Right. Um actually I was part of a healthy church plant, but I'd seen other people try to start new plants in Vegas. Um one guy, and to he he describes himself in his own words, he thought he was the the Mark Driscoll of Las Vegas. And uh it just it just didn't really work, you know. Tried to have services, he didn't he it lasted about a month, but he didn't have elders or other another sending church uh supporting him or looking after him, and then I just seen it really done poorly. Uh but then I so I'm in 2009 I moved to Illinois, study at Wheaton College to get some theological training, and I got plugged into a great church uh in St. Charles, another suburb of Chicago, uh called Redeemer Fellowship. And that church was really committed to church planting. And so I became a member there and I was getting trained up, and it was after I finished my degree and I was ordained as a minister there, and I was it was it was then actually that I sensed the calling into church planning. Um and hearing the uh hearing Joe Thorne speak about uh wanting Redeemer to be a church planning church and the the desire to see new healthy gospel center churches uh planted, I you know, I thought, man, I would love to do that. I'd be love to be that guy. And then I had this inner kind of conflict because for years I'd seen it done poorly, so I thought, oh no, that's not for me. And so I had to had to really wrestle through that and then get some good um good help from other men, uh, just mentor figures to speak into my life and confirm, like, yeah, we think God's calling to this. And then the elders of Redeemer uh examining me and saying, Yeah, we believe God's calling you to this. And so we were part of the Axe 29 network and uh also went through their assessment process and they confirmed it as well. And so we started building a core team, and a couple years after that we got to the point uh we were ready to launch services. So yeah, so definitely a journey, and now that I'm doing it, I I'm just so thankful for it. I I love it because it's uh it's a lot of hands-on evangelism. Yeah. Uh I get to preach, I get to teach, and get to see a new work started. And so it's I don't know, so many things that I love doing, and it's like God God's wisdom. You know, he knew He's perfectly wise and all that.
SPEAKER_03So, how do you get an evangelistic culture in this church plant? I mean, you you you're you're starting with a core team, and so you're able to kind of set the DNA from the outset, but but how do you how do you get people to prize evangelism?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's through through um preaching, you know, speaking, showing how the significance or the importance of it in the scriptures. That you know, the great commission Christ has called us to make disciples of of all nations, and that includes the suburbs of Chicago. And so we want to see Christ exalted. And in and in uh planting this church, God really used uh Colossians 1, 5 and 6, uh which speaks about the gospel bearing fruit. And thinking about like when an unbeliever hears and believes the gospel, uh it's the fruit of new spiritual life. So going from death to life. And as believers understand the gospel more fully, it's bearing that that that fruit, the implication, they're understanding the implications of the gospel is that that freedom and resting in the grace of God. Um so I think it it's uh speaking about it a lot, but also seeking to model it as our leadership and giving opportunities for the congregation. And so we we have different regular rhythms of evangelism, and then we've got one-off events. And so around Christmas time, the last few years, we've done a thing called cookies and carols. Okay. Uh where members of our congregation will bake a bunch of cookies, we'll sing a bunch of carols, and we'll preach the gospel. Okay. So we've done that. Um, you know, around Easter time, it's in the Is that held within your church building or I mean we're renting a space, so it's in the DePage Children's Museum. Yeah. Um before that, we actually rented a different space before we had services. Um there's a festival that happens every year in Naperville uh called the Last Fling Festival, and so local organizations can rent a space there. And so we've we've rented a space there, it's a four-day event, and we've got a booth and we've got a big board, and on the board we ask a different question each day. So, what's the purpose of life? Uh what happens after you die? Who is Jesus? And uh, what's wrong with the world? Right. And people come by and they'll write their their answer on a post-it note and put it on the board.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And then you can engage with them. Oh wow, why do you think Donald Trump's the greatest problem in the world? You know, or uh it was different different different seasons. So you get some pretty silly answers, some pretty political answers, uh, some really thoughtful answers. But it's a chance then to to show them, well, can I tell you what the scriptures say the greatest problem in the world is? Right. And it's actually that we've turned from God, it's sin. Um and so it's a it's an it's an easy way, uh, it's a good stepping stone uh to share the gospel.
SPEAKER_03So what are those four questions again?
SPEAKER_02Uh what's the purpose of life? Uh what's the greatest problem in the world, or what's wrong with the world? Um who is Jesus Christ? Yeah. And what happens after you die? Okay. Yeah, so we've I'm not sure what question. Well, we've done those the last several years. Next year we might try, if you could ask God one question, what would it be? I think I think that might be a good one too. Yeah. So I've been meaning to use that one. So we might try that one this year. But those four, and each day it's a dip of uh a little bit of a different vibe. Um and oftentimes we had just have people come by and just look at the board. Because by the end of the day, the whole board is full of all these answers. Yes. And we've had lots of people just thank us for coming. And uh you're surprised. I mean, you're really thankful.
SPEAKER_03So you've got a booth at this convention, and like to the left of you, what, there's a plumber, and to the right of you, there's like what like what else is there?
SPEAKER_02Well, to the right of us was um a cabinet company this year. Right. And to the left of us was like it's like medieval dinners. So medieval themed dinners, and yeah, another year it was like a humane society. Right. Um people just plying their wares and making making themselves known. I mean, we were the only church uh there. There was a mosque and so a mosque or Islamic society organization there as well. Um, but we're the only Christian organization representing. So it was a good way to invite people to church and share the gospel. And I actually saw one family plug into our church from that. So I think it's one of the other things is we we want to become part of the community. We want to build relationships and we want to want to be a blessing to the community. Yeah. Um so it's I think in church planning it's try it's it's always trying new things out and it's being being willing to try try different things out. Like we've marched in a a parade a couple times to invite people to church. Okay. I've done some other things too. Did you have a float or something? Did you have a No We had a huge banner though? Uh huh. Yeah, and then we had we had flyers with a piece of candy. Okay. Yeah, that'll work. That'll work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And tell me about this other I idea you've had, these these meetups.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So a couple other rooms. I'll tell you about meetup too. Well, well, we we every five weeks or so we go into a retirement home and we do a hymn sing and we just try to love on the residents and share the gospel. And then there's a local college, North Central College, so we're trying to do discipleship and evangelism there. So those are some of the other regular evangelism rhythms. But Meetup has been a one that we've uh we've used and it's been it's done really well the last couple years. And so if you're not familiar with Meetup, Meetup is uh it's a social media app where individuals from around the world can uh find groups of like-minded individuals and join a group that they're interested in. So if you like reading books, you can go in there and you say, put that as your your interest, and you can put your zip code down and they'll say, Okay, Glenn, um you like you live in Eastbourne and you like reading philosophy books. Here's a philosophy group that meets that you're in Eastbourne this time. Um and so what we've done um is we've started a um a discussion group uh in Naperville, um, and it's discussing the deeper topics of life. Like what's the purpose of life, what happens after you die, just like the questions we use at the festival. Uh what is well, what is truth, what is justice, what is love, all of these different things. Um and we meet at a Barnes and Noble cafe in downtown Naperville. Barnes and Noble, a big bookseller in the States. Yeah. Yep, and so they've got these cafes, and so we've uh we go there twice a month, and you can go online and say you're interested in philosophy, interested in learning about you know these different things, Christianity, atheism, all these different things. Um and so what we do is we've got a discussion group that tackles different topics, um, and so people will sign up for it, and then they'll come and there'll be like 15 or 20 people. We push all these tables together, and uh either me or another person in our church will lead the discussion. And so we'll intentionally we'll try to choose a topic, uh, one of these deeper topics, like for instance, justice was one that we did recently.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02And people come in and then we lead the discussion to try to help them wrestle with the topic, and then also point to the biblical uh picture of what. But what the Bible has to say about it. And most of the almost every time, really, we're able to sow seeds and we're able to share the gospel. Beforehand, we're building relationships with people. In the group discussion, we're able to show how actually how the Christian faith helps us make sense of all these things. These things that we know are true, but maybe we don't quite really understand them. And so we've had a lot of we've had a lot of atheists, we've had a lot of agnostics, a lot of secular people, a lot of people that would say they're spiritual but not religious, come. And how the how it how the group works is we'll get there and I'll introduce the group. And I'll say, you know, we've we've created this group so that people can come from the community and talk about these deeper topics in life. And then we'll go around the table. And as we go around the table, we'll have every person say their name and say what they believe and say why they came. Okay. And so briefly, I assume. Yes. You try to encourage briefly. And so that forces everyone to s to kind of show their cards and sense. Uh-huh. Like I am I am Pedro and I'm an atheist, and I really like discussions. And we've seen actually people change from like I'm an atheist to, oh, I'm kind of I'm an agnostic or I'm spiritual, I'm not really sure. And so that's been it's kind of interesting because it's kind of revealing where people are each time. And it also like sets the tone in a sense that we're there's there's not like a neutrality. Like we all come from a specific worldview.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so that's been really good. And I get to say I'm Tom, I'm a Christian, I'm a pastor of a of a church here in Naperville. If I haven't invited you, you're welcome to come.
SPEAKER_03How many Christians from your church would be in this discussion group? And do you limit that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I've tried to keep it so it's not many, but interestingly enough, a majority of people that come to our meetups have been non-Christians. Right. Um so sometimes I'm the only one. I've been at I've had a meetup where I'm the only Christian, and it's all non-Christians. Wow. Uh but sometimes well we've got f at least three others now who are pretty involved.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02And so part of the part of the ministry too is like thinking, trying to really think in advance uh biblically about the topics, and then helping the believers from our church be prepared. Right. So thinking about justice and what does the scriptures teach on that? Uh if we have an opportunity to maybe share scripture, uh, what would it be? Um, how can I how can we point people to the gospel? And so I think that's an important part as well, because it's yeah, you know, it's just the reality of spiritual, spiritual battle, and and you need to put on the armor of God and you need to be to be ready. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So yeah. So you'll get maybe like a dozen, maybe 18, like how many, how many people will come to this? Yeah, I think 15 to 20 people.
SPEAKER_02Fifteen to twenty. Yeah, and we actually cap it at 16 people with a waiting list. So there's always people on the waiting list, but we never turn people away when they come. So and the great majority are coming through the app. That's that's almost all from the apps. You know, but a bit of you'll bring a friend back. Yeah, so then someone will hear about it and then they'll tell their friend. Yeah. And then they'll tell their friend. But it's it's really crazy how it's uh it seemed to really work well. We've we've got a really big group. Like the group itself is is six hundred people at the moment, um, but definitely not all of them have ever come. Right. You know, but at least six hundred people get the notification, like uh this cop our group's called Coffee and Conversations. So Coffee and Conversations is talking about love on this date.
SPEAKER_03And they can they can make comments on that page prior to and then after the event is done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's been a neat another neat thing is there's the discussion board element. So before the actual event, you can go online and you can start the discussion and say, here's some of the questions we're gonna talk about. Uh here's a video or an article. Uh and then after the event you can continue the discussion on. That's fantastic. Yeah, so it's a it's been a really neat way to build relationships with people I would never have met.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think there's a real need for believers to engage in that mission field.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Because when you look at the categories, at least where I'm at, for for religion or spirituality, it's mostly on mostly non-Christian groups. Yeah. A lot of new age, a lot of humanistic, a lot of um just secular, yeah, not affirming the scriptures. Sure. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03So Pedro, your atheist, comes along and starts to be interested by some of the things that you're saying. What would you think would be a good next step for Pedro?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so for us, we've invited them to church, but a lot of them they're that's still just not quite ready for that. So we've had some other events. We've had uh like the Cookies and Conversations event at our church, we've done uh barbecue, picnic. Right. Um and we're hoping to try some other things like an intro to Christianity course, like a like a 3-2-1 course. What else? Yeah. Um, but uh like a like a going through well, actually we we did one with uh going through one of Tim Keller's books. There's that and I've started to meet a meet one-on-one with one of the guys for his latest one, Making Sense of God. So I think that's been a neat a thing that it's it's building those relationships and then just having them over into your home. So we've had a few people just into our house and just had had some tea and just just hung out and got to know them. And so I think it's it's uh I think doing meetup ministry, it's I think the Lord has worked in my heart teaching me to really to love those that come.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, not not to see them as like a project, but these are people made in God's image to love.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02You know, we need to love them and pray for them. And it's it's it's really humbling too. You know, I think going into the meetup ministry, or I think in any ministry, you kind of have a picture of how you hope it'll be. And then there's these different challenges, and it it turns out to be, you know, not quite what you hoped it would be. But I think God is doing a lot in you in the process.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And in me, I feel like, again, I think he's teaching me to love those.
SPEAKER_03So how would you how do you go about assessing this? I mean, is it it is it a monthly thing that you do twice a year? Yeah, twice a month. Twice a month. Yeah. So it sounds like a lot of fun, but it is a big expenditure of your time and energy and that sort of thing. So at what point do you think this is fantastic a fantastic use of resources? At what point do you think we we do something else?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a good question, Glenn. I think, I mean, we've done it now for a couple years, and it seemed to it's a slow process of seeing some individuals start to come to some other events. Yeah. And so I don't have a clear answer on that. I think those who those from our church who have come, they've really been benefited and helped as well. Yes. And I think now it's it's it seems to be like a a great ministry for us, but it's learning how to maybe make this ministry connect to some of the other like ways of introducing people to Christ. So maybe some of the next steps. So it's learning how to how to tweak it and fine-tune it and raise up other other people to lead it. So now it's at a point where I lead one once a month and the other, another person, the guy named Andrew, leads another one. So um, and so it's raising up other leaders and thinking through how to make those next steps. But that I feel like the the final like evaluation, I think at a pr I think it right now it's a season that we need to pray and keep labouring.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And to build those relationships, you need to keep on plugging away, keep on doing it, and see who comes. Definitely. I think in the in in the UK, I think, I mean, I don't know people who are doing exactly this. I know um David Robertson up in Scotland at St. Peter's Dundee, he has this thing called Solas, and he does these kind of cafe discussion groups. But that is more as I understand it, I th I think he or other people kick it off with maybe a 10-15 minute talk sort of thing, and then discussion happens, which is which is different to what you were talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think from mine it's there's a brief intro, just a couple minutes. Uh but how to I'm I'm the facilitator. Right. And so it's trying to lead the discussion through questions. Yeah. And trying to help help the unbeliever think through his worldview. Yeah. Yeah. And I think how Francis Schaefer talks about like we the thing is we we live in God's world. And so there's some kind of inconsistency or incoherence in the worldview of an unbeliever.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so it's kind of it's pushing, kind of in a sense, helping them to see um the inability to live consistently in that. They might say they reject Christianity, but they're living as though Christianity is true.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And so it's it's trying to lovingly, yeah, um, persistently be and honestly help them to see that. And so I think that's part of it, it's helping them to see that, helping them to see that the Christi that Christianity helps them make sense of things that they know are true.
SPEAKER_03And so let's do a worked example of that as we as we as we close. But but so on the topic of justice, because it's fresh in your in your mind. So, how would you do a Francis Schaefer on someone? So Pedro the atheist, he loves justice, he goes on math for justice. Um he he doesn't mind being called a social justice warrior. He says, Well, of course, who's not into social justice? Right. How do you how do you then approach that issue in a Francis Schaefer way?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um for that one in particular, I was actually just got to be a participant, and Andrew uh led that one. But one thing that I did was I brought up a quote from from Dawkins, and I can't can't quote it from memory, but he's he said something like, We live in a universe where there is no good, no evil. Nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I was like, is this really the world we live in? Right. Yes. And so he was there and others were there, and it's trying to trying to help uh so it's bringing up that if if there is no God, then then he's right.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02There is no justice.
SPEAKER_03There is no evil, there is no good.
SPEAKER_02There's no evil, no good. But in throughout the discussion, he would well not uh not always, but it there was a from his point of view, then exposure of like, oh, I can't believe Christians do this, or I can't believe Christians do that. It's like, well, you're showing that you know justice is true. You know there's such a thing as objective right or wrong. Um in your you are acting as though just you do believe in justice. Right. Um, that it's not just pitiless blind indifference that there's good and evil. And so it was helping him when he would make comments like, wait a minute, if Dawkins is right, then why does it matter?
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, yeah. So what Doug Wilson would continually say to Christopher Hitchens in the film Collision, yeah, he was constantly saying, by what standard? Yeah. By what standard. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So whenever Hitch had a problem with Christianity, he'd then say, or by what standard, which is Yeah, I think that's a line that I've been using a lot more myself too. By what standard? Yeah. You know, and it's uh you know, I think that's that's it's helping them to see that and it's being persistent. And I think through this too, it's like maybe he maybe he his heart is hard right now, maybe he won't change, but there are a lot of other people listening in. Yes. And I think that's one thing through Meetup too, it's been interesting, is it's you're having this discussion with maybe who's someone someone who's very hard line atheist, but there's a bunch of people that are just secular, they're not really sure. Right. And they're looking at you and they're seeing a Christian witness. Yes. You know, how is the how are the believers here going to respond when when someone over here rails against the scriptures? Yeah. Um, and they're you know, they're s they're saying all these different things. Well, we be gracious and truthful and loving and patient. Yeah. Um that's been interesting because I I've learned to really give thanks um for the some of these more hard-line atheists that have come because it does create a good foil um between Christianity and atheism.
SPEAKER_03And especially as as culture wars rage on and we seem to be ever more polarized, I get that sense in the States, but you know, perhaps left-right divides in the States and and over here globalist-nationalist divides in in England that actually what Christians can model more than anything else is not how to be right, but how to how to disagree agreeably.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so. I mean, and you look online, there's just so much like vile, like they're just yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like learning how to be how to disagree charitably.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it's it's like the scriptures, you know, speak the truth in love.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So And meeting up actually flushes out the c the the keyboard warriors. Yes, it does. You can't just, you know, bash away at your keyboard and call somebody every name under the sun. Because you're at a c you're at a cafe for goodness' sake. You're you're sipping on your latte, you're seeing them face to face.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, uh exactly. When you're in person, it's it is different.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think some come, like one person came, he said, I'm here to argue.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02It's like, alright, I'm glad you're here. And it seemed like he cooled down a little bit after, you know, building a relationship.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I think it's another thing with Meetup is it it shows the fact that we we are made for community, yeah, and we're you're gonna try to find it somewhere. Yeah. And so as a Christian, you can enter into that and you can build friendships and you're serving them by loving them and listening to them and hearing them out. And people want to talk about these these kind of topics. Yeah. You know, and so you're giving them an opportunity to do that. And you're you want to really hear them and then share this, share the truth. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_03And this is not just your idea that other people, other churches do this that you you know of and other ministries.
SPEAKER_04No, I've been able, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think the I haven't heard of someone else doing the Meetup, uh using Meetup in this way, but I've been able to share with some other church planners in Chicagoland and through uh we're part of the Axe 29 network, and so other people have heard about it and they've also started using Meetup as well. So I wouldn't I would encourage you to do it here. Tom Schmidt first. I don't know. So it's uh it's like there's nothing new under the sun, right? So I I mean it's definitely not for everybody, but I think you know it's it's worth worth trying, you know, and it's yeah, worth trying new ways of connecting with unbelievers, yeah. Um building relationships with them, yeah, and sharing the gospel with them. So so yeah, who knows what it's been two years and excited to see what the Lord has, and like I said, I feel like he's he's doing a lot in me through this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So and I bet your your people are really being trained and helped as as you help them to engage in those marketplace environments. I think that'll be great for just just for Christians to do as well. Yeah, definitely. Fantastic. Well, I hope this catches on, and I hope loads of other people use uh Meetup. Uh, but it's been great chatting to you, Tom, and uh perhaps we'll speak again on the Evangelist Podcast. Sounds good, Glenn.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01So, Tom Schmidt talking to you, Glenn, uh last week. Uh how do you download Meetup or go to the website or whatever?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think you you told me that it started as a website. That sounds right to me. Right. It started as a website where you just you put in your postcode or as Tom would say your zip code and and it takes you to your locality and you can just you know click on what it is that you're interested. I'm interested in dog grooming, I'm interested in spirituality, I'm interested in LGBTQIA, you know, meetup groups, I'm interested in there's a Guardian Readers group. Did you know in ESPON? There's a Guardian Readers group. I I went online to see in Eastbourne what the groups are, and I think the Guardian Readers group had four members. If there was a Daily Mail group, it would have like thousands, but you know, the the Guardian Readers in Eastbourne are thin on the ground, apparently, so you know you can join up with that. But um yeah, so uh I I think it's a brilliant idea. So m I went on to the Eastbourne group and probably the closest thing to what Tom was talking about is the skeptics in the in the pub group, which happens all over the UK and um and we've got one I've I've been along to the Skeptics in the pub here in Eastbourne.
SPEAKER_01As a skeptic.
SPEAKER_03As a as a skeptic. Well, in i I mean, as they describe themselves, they're like, you know, we believe in the scientific method and we believe in rational thinking, and you know, we're skeptical about people who make claims without evidence. And I'm like, well, me too. Like there's there's nothing there that makes me think um that's that's um not something that a a a Christian can can be part of, and and um and they have great discussions. I mean the th the thing with the skeptics in the pub thing is that they'll get a speaker in and they get some quite good speakers in who sort of go on the on the on the tour, really, and uh they will go around the skeptics in the pub groups and give their talk on why homeopathy is a pile of nonsense. Or, you know, um why conspiracy theories um gain such traction in the world. Or, you know, latest studies that show whatever it is about, you know, brain science and these these sorts of things. And they're always very interesting titles and topics. I'm not always able to get along to them um on on the Wednesday nights that they hold them here in Eastbourne. But they have like a 45-minute talk and then break for drinks and then 45 minutes of of questions afterwards. So that's something that Christians could go to, I think, and fruitfully take part. But set up their own group. Or set up your own group. I don't know what you call it. You might call it Skeptics in the pub, but um probably the the branding is taken and they might uh they might not like that. I mean Tom called his group Coffee and Conversations. Um so you know, maybe that's something you can do with meetups, start your own meetup group. Um and I and I think it's it's different from the Skeptics in the pub thing because obviously the the skeptic has the first 45 minutes and they have the floor for 45 minutes and that sort of shapes everything that then happens. It's slightly different to um stuff that David Robertson um gets off the ground, which is which again is is is great. It's kinda like Skeptic in the Skeptics in the pub, but it's more like Christians in the pub. Um where you go to a cafe or a pub and and and somebody a Christian speaks for a little bit and then opens it up to conversation. This is a little bit less directed. This is this is more like the conversation just flows how it flows. Um so it's a bit uh it's a bit more free in the discussion. But I I think there's um a lot of scope for that happening. So yeah, why don't why don't you go on to meet up, type in your own zip code or postcode, as as the case may be, and yeah, see see whether there's a possibility for starting a coffee and conversations group where you are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. Now next week we're going to continue our surprising gospel strategy number three, which is which is don't tell people that Jesus is God.
SPEAKER_03Just don't. Alright? Are you shocked? I am. Andy's wearing his shocked face. And he is skeptical. Skeptical Andy, will you all have to tune in next week?
SPEAKER_01Maybe we should have a meetup for discussing the evangelist podcast.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_01See if we get more strategies that you come up with.
SPEAKER_03Is it genuine or not? See if we get more members than the Guardian Readers group in eSport.
SPEAKER_01If you'd like to uh visit the the webpage for for today and we've got the links to the meetup app and uh information on Tom Schmidt, then just go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep166. Or just go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep. That's the main podcast page where you can subscribe to keep listening to future episodes. And uh there are also links there to give us a rating and review if you would be so kind as to leave us a rating and review. That would be great.
SPEAKER_03Or just share us on social media or do both. You know, give us a share on Facebook or Twitter, and uh that really, really helps us to get seen by more people.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks very much for listening, and see you next time.
SPEAKER_03See ya.