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SPEAKER_02it's it's discomforting us and I I think we've got to we've got to be open about our doubts and and our questions with each other and begin to answer. So I prefer rather than tell somebody else, I'd like to say tell me, you know, what where are the where are the tough areas right now for you? And very often people will will will come in with some of the common questions. You know, a a common one is what what do you people think sex is for? It's amazing how hard it is for us to answer that. What's sex for? I I was watching a show on television and a clergyman got asked that what's sex for? And you think we know the answer for that for goodness sake.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And he and he and he kind of stumbled a bit and and then he then he said well uh well it's for having children you see and everybody laughed. That's interesting. And he didn't quite know how to unpack that then you see because we're not because of our shame culture we just don't talk about. So what's sex for? And I I I I think we can begin to understand the biblical vision for sex and sexuality with with the answer sex is for loving as God loves. When we we express our sexual instincts when we order them aright we order them well in a godly way we're learning to love again out of our fullness we're learning to love as God loves. So we love intimately tenderly passionately in a self-giving way because that's how he loves we're made in his image but we also love faithfully and that means that you're in it for the long haul and so if you're a single person your your chastity bears witness to God's faithfulness. You say he doesn't do one night stand I didn't do one night stand because I love I do my sexuality even in my chasteness as he loves it's always faithful it's always covenant or it's not at all and the married man who's you know once having a affair with his secretary is a tough time and says no I love as God love I'm in this for the long haul for better for worse for richer for poorer till death yeah that's something of God's faithfulness to us and we we live that in our sexuality that's why it's such a sacred thing to us as and unless we've captured we're not going to be able to tell somebody this unless we we feel it in our own hearts again and to feel it we've got to teach it and envision people with it you see and of course the the the the the next question then is well isn't this unfair on again person who doesn't feel that in the same way they feel a a romantic pull toward someone of the same sex.
SPEAKER_05So how is this fair for that we've got to have an answer ready you know think that one through as well and and perhaps we'll get to that in a second but it's it's interesting so one side of the truth that you just unpacked is that sexual love is godly love. It's loving is what loves I guess another side to that truth is that God's love is in some sense sexual love. Yes and that's that I mean you write about that in quite sort of unblushing terms um in in the book. Could you unpack that for us a little bit? Because some some people might balk at that but I I I think that's a key part of getting to to see that sexuality lies at the heart of reality.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well I I I think um one of the problems is we we we don't have a big enough view of what we mean when we talk about sex sexuality I I think a better word is erotic we tend to think of sex as as as the physicality of our of our sexual desires um the genital you know the genital pleasure of of sex but of course the the the Greeks uh the word erotic comes from the word for desire we we know that we that that that pleasurable physicality of sex is also part of a much broader desire for intimacy for romance to love somebody to see them smile to share with them all that this gets kind of mopped up or hoovered up under this bigger idea of erotic and there's an eroticism about God's love and you see that over and over and over again through the Old Testament and the new that God comes after us he wants us he desires us because he desires to to draw us into the into the intimate life and self-giving pouring out that there is in in the Trinity between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He desires to draw us into that and there is something intimate passionate pursuing about that love of God that each of us feels in our in our own hearts you know when we feel that that erotic desire and of course that erotic desire isn't just for other people we we also feel it for I was talking to a guy who's just he said you know I almost get zingy in the pit of my stomach when I'm just before a rugby match starts you know I just it's almost sexual it it's a zinginess of physicality the ear offs of rugby goodness name the ear offs well it is and lots of guys listen to this will will know that will identify with that I took another guy you know a painting just makes him go zingy and and it draws him in and of course you know a theologian like Augustine so all of these these these calls that we sense in the world around us are calling us home to the final resting place of all human desire which which is God himself our hearts are restless until they find their their their home in God to our rest in God and and so what whilst the love you find in in a in a spouse or or the the zing you get in a in a rugby match in a in a in a in a in a win um all of those things they they all in a way point us to to the end of all desire which which is metting God himself. And so there is that eroticism about the love of God you see and I we lost that language and we've got to recover it if if I think we're going to capture people's hearts again. And and actually talk about ways talk about the what they actually feel in their hearts you see.
SPEAKER_05This is what this is the reality of what we feel. So there's a real chance to reclaim uh a whole anthropology that we are feeling creatures as well as thinking creatures but also a chance to reclaim a whole theology because the scriptures are absolutely throbbing with this this uh sense of you know the the love of the bridegroom for the bride um you know heaven and earth Adam and Eve God and Israel Christ and the church um it it it is this this kind of pairing uh that is meant to lose itself in the other and and so all all these all these opportunities lie ahead of us and and I guess they they lay buried when we were embarrassed about the word pregnant.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely I I just think we've got we really have got a great opportunity here. We should be saying uh you know a kind of a thank you to the sexual revolution because it's forced us to sit up and think and you know it's it it's demanding that something of us and it's an opportunity for us to to move on and and discover something new and the wonderful thing I think for our evangelist is is that you know our our sexual desires ordered rightly put the gospel itself on display. That's the amazing thing that God has etched into human flesh the story of the gospel when a when a a wife loves her husband a husband loved his wife they are showing the very love of God which is always faithful and fruitful and intimate and that's why of course Paul says I take this to mean Christ and the church the love of a man for a woman and so it's a form of preaching the gospel although it we wouldn't want to say it it's the main road you know of of the gospel message.
SPEAKER_05But then to ask you the question that uh the non-Christian is going to ask people at that point, you know, why isn't the love of a man for a man? An icon of God's love.
SPEAKER_02Why not that? Yeah yeah well you know at this point I I think we've we've we've got to do something really tough which is challenge the the entitlement uh the spirit of entitlement of it in our culture uh that we're all entitled um and that's gonna be one of the hardest things uh and it it in a way this takes us to the very heart of the gospel which is if if you follow Jesus you take up your cross and follow him and the rubber hits the road for all of us at at some point and yes for for people who are who experience this same sex of track I think goes really deep and this is really hard this is where the rubber really hits the road because the the message of of the gospel is is that we we discover flourishing not in self-fulfillment in entire in get in getting what we want no matter how on the on the face of it that that can seem a good thing it comes in self-denial and and ordering ourselves after Christ and in the gospel story that you you just mentioned heaven and earth Christ and the church male and female there's a complementarity that's that that's lived out about about our sexuality and that that it's in male and female that we see this this kind of echoing this um putting on display of of the gospel uh that you just don't get in male and male that that that's the marriage of sameness what what what Christian marriage is is the bringing together of difference of Christ and the church male and female and it puts that on display in quite a a powerful and profound way. Yes. And what what I what I think that that that is a big ask for someone who's same sex attracted it's a big ask I'll tell you for I know lots of folk who are struggling in their marriages they they they're they're finding it hard it's often a big ask to say hang on for better for worse for rich this is the worst bit now. And and and seeing through my promises it could be really hard for a pastor to say this is where the rubber hits the road but uh but I I always say to someone who's holding who's who's pursuing a a commitment of celibacy who's same sex attractor I say what what you're doing is challenging every one of those of us who don't have the same struggle. Where's the rubber hitting the road for us because because you are putting on display a kind of gospel commitment that's a challenge to the rest of us.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Because it would be easy to think that the Christian message calls the gay man to denial and calls the straight man to fulfilment but what you're saying is that no no matter who you're attracted to you are called to a a a kind of a a self-sacrificial ordering of your sexual life that will that will yeah that will call you to self-giving in whether in a married state or a single state.
SPEAKER_02And and of course there have been generations of single people in the church often women who would love to be married but because they've wanted to honour the the call to not be unequally yoked they they've they've been chased they've held to the that that call it's been tough and and so uh yeah no this has been something that people have been doing for a long time and I I don't for a minute underestimate the pain and how hard that is yeah but it's that this is where the rubber is in but but the only thing I want to say is is that I I think we do have to recognise virtue too in gay in same sex relationships.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02By saying look this is God's blueprint and it's a tough call that doesn't prevent us from saying but but we we recognise that that that there are there are committed same sex relationships that are capable of tenderness and love and commitment that that that you've got to admire. Yes. But it's not the blueprint. Yes. In the end it's not what God calls us to and I I'm always at pains to say and none of us are really living up to that blueprint I'm sure you aren't Glenn I'm not this is the blueprint so we don't sit in judgment on anyone but at the same time we say we will not surrender this blueprint because in its call and its claim on us it's life for the world and that's what the gospel is you speak um at one stage about um in singleness you do not give up your sexuality that you are still a sexual being that you're ordering your sexual life in chastity the because of the call of the gospel that kind of thing can you just unpack what you what you mean by that yeah I think one of the really important things um uh is is that single people that that they they listen to the story and they think well where obviously first where does this leave me you see um am I asexual? I'm am I uh do I miss out on on this am I not part of that and I I of course you're not you're you're still sexual. I should say that some people will be scratching the head a bit with with my talking about all this this zinginess and this desire because there is a spectrum here and some people don't have the same strength of sexual feelings in the population so we're not everybody is doing this in quite the same way but most single people do have the same desires and uh I think what I'm saying is that when you hold your sexuality in a chaste way you don't stop being sexual. That that's the point. You you still desire you still long and you may miss out on the the appetizer which is what marriage is that it's pointing for but you'll get the you'll be there at the main course which is where all our desires are met. In the the the marriage of the marriage sufferer you'll be there and and your maybe unsatisfied desires are still pointing to the same place. Yes and you what you need to know is that married people are never fully sexually satisfied that's a that's a bit of a myth. It's not quite fulfilling it's not quite right about our sex lives because ultimately they're they're home to the end of all all desire. And I remember when I was talking about this a a single woman came to me at the end of the Talking Tears and she said I've for the first time you helped me realise I I I you know I'm 40 I've I've struggled I a part of me I've struggled with being single but you've told me I'm still sexual I'm a woman and these desires are still a part of who I am and I see her as a sign she's pointing to the way to the end that will all occupy and once it there'll be no marriage or given in marriage in heaven because the thing to which marriage points will have come which is the marriage supper of the Lamb between Christ and his church. So she's pointing to that reality in her singleness.
SPEAKER_05So her body itself speaks of the gospel in in that way you see you have a great line in the in the book uh you you say something like uh it's not that there's no marriage in heaven it's that there's one marriage in heaven um Christ and his bride um yeah and therefore it is not the dissolving of our sexuality but it's uh it's it's actually the the enhancement of it and the and the fulfillment of it ultimate yeah that yeah which is very helpful. Now we've we've spoken in very kind of theological and and and very broadly anthropological terms in in terms of the the goodness of the Christian sexual ethic. Do you either with other Christians or with non-Christians do you talk about the societal gains of one man and one woman and having children in you know the home in which men are tied to their offspring and in which there's you know faithful committed units that make up society? Do you do you do you talk in those terms as well as you're trying to commend the Christian sexual ethic?
SPEAKER_02Yeah but you know we've we've got to be ready to explain how this is how this is plausible. In what sense it's good news you see and it the sexual revolution um it it it it has these slogans freedom flourishing fairness you see but but and and I think what we've got to do is get on the same page would say yeah we we identify with that freedom that I that that's the gospel flourishing um I've come that you might have life fairness God's the God of justice those are our words we we're right with you on that page we see that we understand those words somewhat differently and we certainly think you get there by a different route uh but but but when we look at your promise yes we we've failed on our promises in the past but when we look at the sexual revolution's promise of breed on flourishing it's failed as well we've got to be ready to say that and to marshal some of the evidence for that. What sort of evidence for you well well there for example people's sex life we're having less sex now not more it's uh the the the frequency of intercourse is falling so this idea of flourishing you know take the brakes off and we're all happy hippies having free sex is is and and the army of agony ants uh suggests that I you know we're as worried about our sex lives as ever we were and you know we Christians we brought our kids up in sh in shame and and some fear and ignorance we this culture has pornographied childhood it's pornography this is one of the great scandals and tragedies of culture and and of course we we've we've perhaps forgotten about the most vulnerable of all that but this is a culture which says we're we're fearless is what it's all about. Well what about justice for kids? It's our kids what what if the people who've paid the price for our adult freedoms are our kids the most vulnerable of all because one in two fifty percent of kids reach the age of sixteen with only one parent in the home or put it another way only half of kids will reach teenage years with both parents in the home and kids love stability that they thrive on stability and we are destabilizing childhood in so many areas. Now we need to recover the confidence I I'm saying to refocus on our kids. Christians have always loved kids that's one of our great signs of the gospel and the flourishing of the gospel and it's a simple fact then stable marriages are good for kids. They love stable marriages and all the evidence points to to you know marriage bringing the kind of stability that kids thrive on.
SPEAKER_05And what about when people dispute that and they they say that well but we don't know whether heterosexual or homosexual marriages are are better for kids.
SPEAKER_02Is the jury out on that kind of that that that kind of study well the the i i what you'll hear people say is is all the evidence is that it makes no difference, you know um which which is which may you it depends um I I I think actually the all the evidence may be that it makes no difference because it's not very good evidence. We've got lots of little studies out there which are are based on what are called convenience samples that is you just draw together groups of you go looking for couples, same sex couples who brought up kids you see and and that they're very selective samples because the kind of people who often go into these studies are not entirely representative. So I think it's best to not get into trying to argue over the over the statistics on that. The evidence just isn't good enough. I think I just appeal to people's common sense that in the round in general kids do great when they've got a mum and a dad in the home they then have the full you know the whole spectrum male female working together as the image of God for their flourishing and that's just common sense. I I d you don't then have to have to not if that doesn't mean that you don't recognise that say a a a a same sex couple down the road from you a lesbian couple they may be doing a great job with a disabled kid they've they've adopted they may be doing a great job that we we don't have we we're not prevented from recognizing that virtue but but neither should we be frank to say but on average in the round overall we're batting for marriage between a man and a woman as being good for human flourishing because it binds men to their responsibilities for the kids they bring into the world.
SPEAKER_05And God loves to bring stability to to his kids, you see very good very good well let me just uh round off by asking you two questions about what advice you give to evangelists whether That's somebody who has the gifting of an evangelist or a Christian who uh is keen on sharing their faith. What would you say, first of all, to evangelists who are addressing this subject publicly? What what advice would you give as as they fit to speak to these issues?
SPEAKER_02Well, I uh you know, something we need a conversation about I'm not sure that this is in the should be in the mainstream of an evang of an evangelist ministry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um but you you may have some better wisdom than me on on that. Um but I I think an evangelist has got to be ready uh for it to come up, and it'll come up quite quickly. Yeah. Um and and I I I think to be led by the questions that that people bring up, uh, and and really to work at how how we answer those questions. A com you know, a really important point is is not to um get drawn into very mean and um that you don't care. And uh what what we often do is we answer a question about a person by appealing to to some rules, you see. Right. And that allows people to say, yeah, so we say, what about you know, what about my nephew? Someone says, He's getting a nice boy. Why I don't understand why he can't. And and so we say, Well, God's law says, or God says, and that doesn't connect with that person, you've got to connect with where they're coming from, um, and and understand that. And you say, of course, I yeah, you know, I'm I'm sure that's true. And and what you need to know is that you know, God loves us whatever our feelings, whatever our instincts. Um, but but your nephew like like everybody else, the gospel is tough. This call to self-denial, uh, the rubber heads be road for us in different different ways. Um and uh and you draw you've got to connect first with the individual and then draw them into the bigger story. Don't make the mistake of jumping from from narrative to rules, which is the mistake we often make.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02I think the most powerful way, you know, is that we've got to live this. We've just got to show to the world in our communities um that that we have the kind of communities that look out for single people and honour them, as well as that sustain and nurture married couples, and that it brings life and put it on display as well as put it into words.
SPEAKER_05Yes. No, I think that's absolutely right. I think our our front footing proclamation is Christ and Him crucified, that uh what's what actually yeah, what actually communicates to the world is the way we live out in our communities. Yeah, flourishing family life and Yeah. So let me let me finish with a with the final question. Um If you were on that uh TV program where the where the minister was asked what is sex for. And uh the cameras the cameras are on you and the nation is watching. What do you what do you say?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I sex is for loving as God loves. And that's why it's sacred, it's a kind of a sacred thing to Christians. It's a big part of our identity. And uh and what what what these longings, that this longing does is it draws us together into families which are great for kids, stable families. Um it brings us joy, it brings us satisfaction. Um, and here's the big thing it it tells us something about God Himself, that that his love is both intimate, but also it's faithful, and that's why for us, sex belongs in marriage, a faithful, committed relationship. And um and that for us is what it's for.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah, well, you've you've clearly done some thinking on this, uh Glenn. Yeah. And uh would would that all our spokespeople be able to answer like that?
SPEAKER_02Well, the problem is, um you've got a it it it doesn't come naturally to us because we haven't inhabited the truth, you certainly. And uh I've been on a long learning curve and still on it. And as I say, again, I I just hope that other people who can do it a lot better than me uh will will get on board with this because it's what the world's looking to us for right now, isn't it?
SPEAKER_05It it absolutely is, and a great way of doing that is people get a hold of a better story and um you can get that where all good books are sold, I guess. Where's the best place that people can pick up for a a better story, Glenn?
SPEAKER_02Um well, yeah, you know, good book companies, ten of those do it. Um I hate to say Amazon, but Amazon also have ten of those on this, I think, and some of the other companies. So um there's there's there's a lot of choice there as well. Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. No, it's a fantastic book, and I highly recommend it as uh especially as we seek to uh as we seek to teach the goodness of the Christian view of of of sex to our own people uh and then to modellists to a watching world. I I I think you really you paint a beautiful picture, a compelling picture that that really is a better story to what the world's telling. So I think uh you've absolutely achieved your aim. Oh, thanks so much. Yeah. Thanks so much for speaking, Glenn. Thank you, Glenn. It's been great to to chat through some of these things. No worries. Okay, God bless.
SPEAKER_02God bless, bye.
SPEAKER_01That was Glenn Harrison talking to you, Glenn. Glenn and Glenn. The flower plot men. Yeah. So where can folks go to see this book? Is it uh online anywhere? Or what a great question. His website is glennharrison.com.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's G-L Y D N F H A R I S O N Corre.com and uh there are links to his book uh the one about the movements uh that you can go to it and then uh a better story, which you can get and read because it's great.
SPEAKER_01So if you like uh the event of this podcast and you'd like to give us a rating review, we'd be very pleased if you could do that for us. Just go to speaklife.org.uk slash iTunes and if you want to go to the podcast page speaklifts.org.uk slash PEP and all the uh previous episodes there's also subscribed. We've also got an opportunity coming up in September.
SPEAKER_04You can study with union, you can get practical hands-on training without a speaker. Um expect of students are beginning in September to do the graduate of corporate theology through union. Uh so you'll be learning from the likes of uh uh Mike Reeves and Robert Lettham and uh Lee Gatus and Tata Main and Ray Ortland and stuff like that. Um you can get an accredited theological degree uh theology obviously and uh but also there's an opportunity you know could you join us as an accredited evangelist there's an opportunity to be with us to come around with me to help us out and get hands-on training uh as an evangelist. It's not always easy to get actual practical experience um as an evangelist uh in the UK. And we want to uh after that, we want to grow our work here through growing up other evangelists. Could that be you?
SPEAKER_01Well that's that's about it for this week. That'll see what uh evangelists podcast. But uh, that's it for now.