Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we talk about the book Love Story.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we seek to encourage you in your Christian walk and help you to share the good news about Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley and here's Glenn Scrivener. Hello everybody. How are you, Glenn? Yeah, doing really well.
SPEAKER_03I'm uh sort of in between university missions and uh recovering myself, getting ready for for Durham and uh Queen's University Belfast.
SPEAKER_01Because last week you were in Birmingham.
SPEAKER_03Birmingham. Yes. Oh, it was very good. So uh yeah, they they have uh like a marquee in the middle of the campus at Birmingham University, the the Christian Union there, and put on all sorts of lunchtime events and uh and afternoon events and they fly the campus and get people to answer questions about love and freedom and hope and meaning and those sorts of things. Tell us tell us a story or two about the so uh everywhere everywhere I go on university missions, there's uh there's always uh a lovely cultured atheist um who loves CU and loves CU events weeks. Um and uh so the one in Birmingham is called Tom, and uh just uh a a really delightful guy doing a master's in physics and in uh computer science. So, you know, always dress dressed immaculately in a waistcoat with a um pocket watch and things like that, and and Tom uh yeah, Tom interestingly is probably the best evangelist for the Christian Union because he would not only would he come to every event, but he he'd also come with a friend. Um and one of one of his friends that he brought along was called Evie, and she was just um amazed by uh this stuff and and and it was what was interesting is sort of talking to Evie, she she sort of grew up in a Catholic setting, but walked away from things really in her teenage years, and literally she was just had her head in her hands as she as as she was just talking to this other Christian who was kind of saying, Well, maybe if God made the universe then there's kind of a moral character to the universe, and if there's not, then I guess we make up our own morality, and then it's just a powerful who are just imposing their will on others, and nobody wants that, do they? And she sort of had her head in her hands, and she was like saying, Yeah, that's that's right, isn't it? And she turned to Tom and Tom and Tom sort of had to admit, you know, you know, that that is one of the benefits of being a Christian is is that there is such a thing as as morality and and um and he uh he just admitted that yeah, without that then human beings just have to make power plays over one another. But if that's the way it is, that's the way it is, says Tom, and on he went. And and so, you know, we we I I think Tom learnt a few new things, but I I think what I was really uh interested in was uh Evie just coming back and coming back and coming back, and and she's very close to the kingdom by the end of the week. I'm not sure how she responded at the very ends. Every evening I was sort of uh saying to people, Would you like to receive Christ and praying prayers? And and a number of people did. And what was really exciting about that is the people who did weren't the sort who would then sort of fill in a form and tick a box and then not leave their name. Which so you'd be surprised at how often that happens. People say, Yes, I've given my entire life to Jesus and I'm repenting and you know, I'm gonna turn over a new leaf and go a new w direction, and then people say, And you know, would you like follow-up? No, no follow-up, thank you. Would you at least leave your name? No. Um that happens ridiculously often. Um But um the people that I heard who'd given their lives to Jesus were all friends of CU members who'd, you know, um, and then the the Christian Union members, um, their response was was quite often, well, it was about time as well. You know, they've come along to enough things. So it was just a a lovely time of of some people who'd been considering Christian faith for a while, just sort of saying, Yep, now's the time and and of receiving Christ. And and other people who hadn't thought about these things at all being brought to consider them. And uh and then, you know, lovely guys like Tom, uh yeah, having to think again and and what you see with someone like Tom is that he he realizes that there's nowhere else to go. If you really want meaning and morality and satisfaction and you know, if you want human rights and freedom and all these sorts of things that we also take for granted, um he really sees that, you know, where else shall we go? You know, Christ alone has the words of eternal life. The tragedy is um he goes everywhere else. And uh, but yeah, we keep on praying for for the toms of this world. And uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01So what what's the next one you say Durham?
SPEAKER_03Next one is Durham, uh starting on the twentieth of February, and um and then Queen's University starting on the twenty-seventh.
SPEAKER_01Wow, good. Okay, so sort of in between these you've been writing and getting a book off.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yeah. So I got a got an Easter book off uh called Love Story.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and uh we're actually gonna hear some of it today.
SPEAKER_03That's right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not not all of it.
SPEAKER_03Not all of it. Well, it's not a hugely long book, but um yeah, it's it's kind of a giveaway book that it's one to read and pass on to a friend. Um it's aimed at um those who are just looking into Christian faith and it assumes no prior knowledge, but I hope it'll be very faith-building uh for Christians to read and and uh that they would be really refreshed and encouraged by the gospel. Um and also one for churches to buy in bulk and give away at their Easter services.
SPEAKER_01So before we jump into it, just just give us uh a little bit of a background to how you came to the uh the idea of the elevator pitch.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So C. S. Lewis came to faith really after a a very significant conversation with J. R. Tolkien. So they were great friends, they were part of the Inklings in in Oxford, and um Tolkien, uh a very devout Catholic. Lewis, at this stage in 1932, was basically a theist, um, and he'd come to see that God's probably existed because of the problem of evil, so that's very interesting. C. S. Lewis kind of says, Ah, because I think that evil is wrong and should not be, I there probably needs to be something that is right if there's gonna be if I'm gonna say that there's something wrong. And so he he's a theist at this stage, but he can't quite wrap his head around Christianity and why Jesus and why this Easter story, why the cross and the resurrection at all Um and so Tolkien just said, Well, but don't you love the ancient myths? You spend your whole life teaching about the ancient myths, the Greek myth, the Roman myths, the Norse myths, and C. S. Lewis was like, Well, yeah, no, I love I love those, but he said they are lies, even though breathed through silver. They are lies breathed through silver. And Tolkien replied, They are not lies. Right. And Lewis is like, What? Of course they're lies, you know. All this It's a myth. That's what a myth is. It's it's you know, these it's escapism. It's not reality. And Tolkien said, No, no, no, they are the deepest reality. All these myths that we tell of rags to riches and overcoming the monster, and you slay the dragon, and you get the girl, and you go on the quest, and you return home, and uh you turn tragedy to comedy and you snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, and there's a happily ever after, that is what's really true about the world. And all the stories we tell are kind of refractions and and um based on that story, yeah. Based on the ultimate story. It's like, you know, we're living in that story. Um and what is Easter? Easter is when the myth earthed itself in history. It's the myth that really happened. Um and actually after this conversation, Lewis became a Christian within weeks. Um he looked back at the Gospels and he and he saw this twin reality that yes, in the Gospels there is this mythological character of here's this ultimate hero and he's this bridegroom, and he's he's this prince, he's this knight who defeats the monster and gets the girl, the church. Um you know, and and so he saw this sort of legendary character, but he also said, Look, I've dealt my whole life with myths, and they are all written once upon a time in a land far, far away. The Gospels are like, well, Caesar Augustus was on the throne, and this person was the Tetrarch of, you know, Edomir, and this person was the governor, and Jesus went from this named location to that lame named location. It all happens in history. And he says it's unmistakably historical in character, the gospels. So what you get in the gospels is this intersection of history and legend. Um and he came to see that the gospels is uh they are the myth that really happened. Yeah. Um and then that obviously sparked him off to become a storyteller himself and to create Narnia and you know, those sorts of things. But what's he doing with all those myths and legends is he's pointing back to the ultimate myth that really happened, which is the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Right. And so you thought, okay, I need to tell this story again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's tell this story again. And love story was love story was born. And uh and so we basically go through the Easter weekends from Maundy Thursday to Easter Sunday, and we look at four different episodes on that weekend. And we look at them as the ultimate love story. So we we see love stoops, that's the foot washing, love suffers, we see Jesus going into Gethsemane, love sacrifices the cross, and love stands again, and that's uh Easter Sunday, the resurrection. Uh and when you follow through that story, hopefully hearts are warmed and people see that Jesus really is the hero who has shown up, and this really is the myth that really happened.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, excellent. And there's also a video that uh It's coming. It's coming down the pipeline.
SPEAKER_03So Alex Webb Pepplo, uh who animated Cannonball for us two Easters ago, uh he's back on board, and so basically we're telling the greatest fairy tale ever. Right. And uh Alex Webb Pepplo is gonna do the drawings for us, uh, bring that to life, and then show how yeah, the Easter events really are the greatest love story ever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh to stay tuned to uh to see that and uh hear it. But now you're gonna you're going to read how much you're gonna read of it.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna read the first chapter, which is an introduction, sort of yeah, describing C.S. Lewis's conversion and how the Bible is a love story.
SPEAKER_01And then it's and then you can get the book uh online, ten of those, and uh buy several copies and give them to your neighbours and friends and Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Get a hundred copies for a hundred quid, why not? Yeah. And then hand them out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Go on. Good. Okay. Love story the myth that really happened.
SPEAKER_03Love story. The myth that really happened by Glenn Scrivener. Published by Ten Publishing. Chapter one. True story. When all looked lost, their tragedy turned to comedy, the dragon was slain, the wicked king was overthrown, the quest was completed, the heroes returned, the princess was saved, and she married the knight. So they all lived happily ever after. The end. What do you make of fairy tales?
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SPEAKER_03S. Lewis loved them. He spent much of his life studying and teaching the ancient Greek, Roman, and Norse myths, and he went on to write some of the most popular fantasies of all time, the Chronicles of Narnia series, The Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe, and so on. In many ways, myths were Lewis's life, yet he had mixed feelings about them. He was enthralled by the stories, but at the same time he considered them as escapism, as mere fantasies. One night, though, he had a conversation that changed everything. On the 19th of September, 1931, Lewis was speaking with his great friend J. R. R. Tolkien, author of The Lord of the Rings. Mr. Narnia was chatting with Mr. Middle-earth. At this point, Tolkien was a Christian, but Lewis was not. In fact, Lewis had a big problem with Christianity, namely the Easter story. He could understand that people might believe in a God. He could appreciate that God might want people to live in a certain way. That kind of religion sounded reasonable enough. But that isn't Christianity. Christians insist on telling a story all about God coming to earth to die for his creatures. More than its creeds or rituals or moral codes, it is the Easter story that is central for Christians. And that was Lewis's sticking point. He didn't understand how the death and resurrection of Jesus related to the rest of Christianity. What on earth was the point of Easter? In answer, Tolkien directed Lewis back to all the myths he loved. Didn't Lewis appreciate the ancient stories of the dying and rising gods? Didn't he see how those myths worked on his heart in a profound way? Yes, indeed, Lewis was deeply moved by such stories. Well, declared Tolkien, Christianity is the ultimate story of the dying and rising God. But, Lewis countered, all those stories are just myths. They aren't true. In a memorable phrase, Lewis called them lies breathed through silver. They are beautiful, but ultimately empty. How would Tolkien respond? Surely he would have to agree with Lewis. No one could think that fairy tales were real, could they? Tolkien shocked Lewis with his answer. No, said Tolkien. They are not lies. This was earth-shattering for Lewis. If Tolkien was right, then there is such a thing as a real fairy tale. There exists a grand story that lies behind all other stories, namely Easter. Easter is the ultimate and original myth, the myth that really happened. This got Lewis thinking of all the stories he had loved, not only tales of death and resurrection, but stories of rags to riches, of defeating the monster, of epic quests, of grand romances, of desperate tragedies, of joyful comedies, of victory snatched from defeat, of the prince marrying the pauper and the happily ever after. These stories resonate with us across the cultures and down the ages. But why? Is there a reason our hearts are tuned to such realities? Might there be a grand original story that is reflected and refracted in our little stories? And could this explain the centrality of Easter? The true myth. Within a month of this famous conversation, Lewis had all but converted to Christianity. He had begun to see the story of Christ as a true myth, a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened. In the Gospels, the biblical biographies of Jesus, Lewis said the old myth of the dying God comes down from the heaven of legend to the earth of history. It happens at a particular day in a particular place. All the other myths take place in dream time. Fairy tales happen, as Star Wars begins, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. The gods live and die beyond our time and space. However, the Gospels show Jesus living and dying in our world, under the reign of named rulers like Pontius Pilate. This historical character sets the Jesus story apart from all the others. Lewis later wrote, quote, As a literary historian, I am perfectly convinced that whatever the Gospels are, they are not legends. I've read a great deal of legend, and I am quite clear that they are not the same sort of thing. Legends are set once upon a time. You simply cannot answer the question when about any detail of a legend. You cannot find out when the Norse god Thor married his wife, or when the Hindu deity Krishna fought Kalya. Those stories are not set in our world of time and space. By way of immense contrast, the Gospels are detailed accounts of people, places, and times. Even as they tell the most wonderful story, they are written as serious history. So we find in the Bible an unparalleled combination. Mirroring the claim that God entered the world as man, we see in the Gospels that a great myth has entered history as fact. There is an anchoring of the great stories in our time and space. Just as the gods sacrifice and come to life, so Jesus gave his life and rose again. Just as the knight comes to slay the dragon, so Jesus came to defeat the powers of evil. Just as the prince comes to marry the pauper, so Jesus came to win his beloved people. Just as the hero comes to complete the quest, so Jesus came on a mission from God. And as he fulfills all these classically heroic roles, Jesus turns rags to riches and tragedy to comedy. Here is the love story that has really happened. Lewis had thought of myths as silvery lies. When examining the Jesus story, he found it to be solid gold truth. More than this, he found it to be the fulfillment of all other stories. In Jesus, and in particular in the Easter story, Lewis discovered an answer to his heart's cry for meaning, joy, hope, and love. In this book, we will explore the Easter story for ourselves. We will examine the weekend of Christ's death and resurrection, events that are traditionally known as the Passion of Jesus Christ. Christians see Easter as the culmination of God's great love story. As Jesus stoops, suffers, sacrifices, and stands again, he is bringing to fulfilment an ages-long romance. Love story is about listening to that romance again.
SPEAKER_01So that was chapter one of uh Love Story, The Myth That Really Happened. Where can folks get a copy?
SPEAKER_03Where else but ten of those dot com? Okay. And uh yeah, you can go there and why why not, you know, buy a copy of 321 while you're there. If you if you haven't already got a copy of 321.
SPEAKER_01Is it one of those where you get a bundle, you know? I don't do that. Glenn's scrivener bundle or something. Maybe. Oh yeah. A bundle of two books. Four kinds of Christmas? Out of season, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Get ready. Well, I've got I've got to come up with a Christmas book for n this coming Christmas. But uh yeah. Good. It's coming it's coming around to that time of year where I have to think about Christmas again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well that's it pretty much for for this episode. If you like listening to the Evangelist podcast and you want to do us a favour, could I ask that if you could leave us a rating and review on iTunes, just go to speaklife.org.uk slash iTunes and uh click the link to review us. We'd be very grateful if you could leave us a rating review.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Hopefully, not a one star review. That would that probably wouldn't help, would it? It wouldn't it wouldn't no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we might end up in the the wrong end of the charts. Yeah. Go on, five stars, go on. Five stars. Do you remember five stars? No, it was five stars. Pop group. I reckon the eighties, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No. Oh that dates you. That dates you. That dates you, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, thanks very much for listening. See you next time. Bye