On the line we've got Rico TikTok. Thanks for joining us on the evangelist podcast.
SPEAKER_06Thank you very much. Lovely to be here.
SPEAKER_05Fantastic. You've written a great book on evangelism called Honest Evangelism. That's an interesting adjective to choose. Is there dishonest evangelism that's going on?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely, Glenn. I mean, and particularly as the culture hardens in some areas to Christian faith, the temptation is to say that which will not create hostility. And the truth is about the gospel message is that it is telling us that in God's world we are not owners, we're tenants. And that the owner is going to come and ask us, Do you know me and have you heard your sin forgiven? Now, can I tell you that is conflict? And there's a lot of evangelism that I look at which, you know, avoids that conflict by avoiding telling the truth. So, you know, there are bits of evangelism that are fundamentally, oh Lord, my life is empty, fill me. Whilst the real gospel is, oh Lord, I'm an offence to you, rescue me. And what I have to do is cross the pain line and articulate to people that we are rebels in God's world. Uh you know, we're we're we're not just victims, and and I look around and I see lots of people avoiding saying the tough stuff.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And when did you realize that you were going to be a different kind of evangelist? When did when did you just d did you decide that you were going to confront lovingly where things needed to be confronted?
SPEAKER_06Well, brother, do you know I think it's coming from a non-Christian home. I mean, I I've buried members of the family who now they're in God's hands. I am not the judge as to where they've gone, but they died saying, I'm a good person, God will accept me because I'm good. And I think that their experience of church, which in some places was pretty minimal, affirmed that salvation by being good. That's what the British are. You know, I'm a decent man, God will accept me because I'm decent. Oh, vicar, he never heard a fly. That's what you hear at the funeral. By which they mean, of course, God will accept him because this is the criteria by which he does decency. And I think it I think it's that experience of seeing a non-Christian family misinformed and then going before God without having had the truth clearly preached, that that of course, you know, makes this quite a deep seated desire to get the truth out.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05Now you you split your time between all souls, Lang and Place and Christian Explored. And you're you're very much an upfront evangelist. How does that translate for Okay, I've I've got my job, I'm an accountant, I committed to work, um, I've got my non-cryption friends, um, I am aware of the internal realities, and that it does need to be this confrontation and day by day I've I'm a good friend to them, and day by day I I need to be a good work colleague and do my job well. Uh how how do you put together just the ongoing life of loving our friends around us and our neighbours and our family? And the need at some point to make that confrontation.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean I I always say to people it's four steps. I mean I'm always saying this. I'm saying the first step is to celebrate people. So Genesis 1, they're made in God's image, 27-28. Celebrate them, and you do that by asking questions. You know, the world doesn't really bother with people. We do by asking questions. Secondly, serve them. Ask them what's their biggest pressure. So there's a sense in which you get you can get to with people, you know. Um uh may they th though they speak against you, they see your good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. So they they don't know what to make of you. They like what you do and yet they don't like that there's Christian stuff there, but they're drawn to it. And that's where I think what's on the service where Talking Jesus, the survey, has been amazing. Sixty-seven percent of people in this country have a Christian friend they like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So we are doing a great job in serving. Oh, look at my church family, they're working so hard at it. But thirdly, cross the pain line, ask a question. Now the the easiest question to ask in terms of putting the Christian faith on the agenda is do you celebrate Christmas?
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_06Would would you come along to do that? That's still culturally acceptable. But as you get to know people, what is the question that actually crosses the pain line and it might get hunger and it might get hostility? And you you need to work that one out and then ask for boldness and courage to to say it. But as you say it, remember your identity's in the gospel. So whether they accept or reject you doesn't make you more valuable, what makes you valuable is the gospel. So celebrate them, serve them, ask a question that could be tricky, you might get rejected. But number four, exit. So I think in Matthew 10, where it says wipe the dust off your feet, it means if they go quiet, you go quiet. So that's what happens. You ask people to something, do you want to come along Christmas? They say nothing. Well, if they say nothing, you say nothing and just change the subject. But if they go, Well, I I I might be able to make it all you know, if they start talking, you keep asking questions.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_06So I think whether whether I'm an evangelist on the street or I'm, you know, just getting to know my street, or you're an accountant at work, those four steps I think are crucial.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06Celebrate them, serve them, ask the question, and then exit if they if they're just aggressive or keep asking.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And I guess by exit, you kind of go back to one and two, go back to celebrating and serving. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_06You go back to celebrating and serving and then praying. So I mean the other day with a neighbor, I said to him, Would you like we're coming back from the swings, I said, Do you want to look at the Bible with me? And he went, No. No.
SPEAKER_05It's good to hear you say you strike out, Rico.
SPEAKER_06It's great to yeah, you know, it's gone. And uh you know, so that's what that's what happened.
SPEAKER_05But that's but that's all right, isn't it? You know, that's yeah, no nobody nobody got him.
SPEAKER_06No, you I mean, brother, you know, my job is to give them the opportunity, it's not the results.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_06The results belong to God, but I I mean I'm praying for him and enjoying him. Uh they've just had another child and we're going to the swings on um Saturday morning together, and you know uh this guy's dad has died recently, so I I it might be you know, I'm praying and seeing seeing where he is, but I've given him the opportunity.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And that's what I'll do. And there's a lot of rejection. I mean, you know, we know that of the sixty-seven percent of people in this country who've got a Christian friend they that likes them, of that one in five, twenty percent of that sixty-seven percent, are hungry, which means four in five are gonna be rejecting you when you ask things spiritually. But it means seven point two million people are hungry, but you don't know which one of your five friends that's gonna be, is the one in five. So you've got to sort of ask them all. You don't know which one's gonna say, Well, I would like to know more.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. We had a a member of our church family, uh, we've just had a uh a mission week with Paul Williams, he's come down to to Eastbourne and done a number of different events, and uh uh one of the events was a curry that was put on simply through the friends of one of our members who asked eighty of uh his friends personally from the rowing club where he was. And he and he struck out with sixty of them. Um which which I'm sure was not fun, but uh it did mean that there were 20 non-Christians there.
SPEAKER_06Well, and actually that's about interestingly what Talking Jesus, the survey, um, says. Do look up Talking Jesus, it's immensely encouraging. I mean, what's great is that is that sixty-seven percent of people like one of their Christian friends. They actually say he's a good guy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06Now, interestingly, of that sixty-seven percent, if you said to them, okay, how many of you think that friend you know is homophobic, the answer is six percent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_06So we've done we've done a magnificent job in repenting of the homophobia. I mean, in the churches, it really used to be a problem. People are much more sensitive now. It doesn't mean we're not orthodox, but we're sensitive. And I think that survey's been a real encouragement. So I would recommend people to to find it and and and and look it up because I find it's great to encourage people with it.
SPEAKER_05Well, exactly. And and it stops us from disqualifying ourselves from evangelism before we've even begun. Because you you ask most Christians, you know, how many non-Christians do you think consider us homophobic? And they'd probably think it's 96%.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, exactly. And it's And it's that's a media narrative, and actually I'm I'm now trying to get in touch with people like Stonewall and others saying, look, give us credit, please, because we've worked really hard. Please give us credit for how hard we're working to make sure that that we are loving and being authentic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant. So what's been the response to uh honest evangelism? It's it's been out for how long's it been out for?
SPEAKER_06Uh about a year, a year and a half. All right. Um well, I I think the worst response was my wife, who who um says that the word honest and Rico Tysh shouldn't be on the same front page. But it was quite funny when I was writing it with her, um, because I was meant to be I was I was on Sebasculum meant to do it all the foot during the football world cup, but of course I was I was watching the football, so so we then had to do it over half term while her parents took the kids and after about six days I said, Oh darling, isn't this lovely? Here we are writing this together. She said, I hate you and I hate this book. So that was a very warm response. No, I mean Glenn I think.
SPEAKER_05That's an honest evangelist one, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06I think people are getting those two I I think the the the thing the book has done that has really resonated is it says, Look, let's be honest, we're going to get hostility if we tell people the truth. But some people will be very hungry. And I think the fact that I've said, look, there's going to be hostility, let's just be honest about that. But nevertheless, be honest with the non-Christian about what the gospel is, honest with a Christian about the hostility, honest with the non-Christian about let's be straight, that there are eternal issues here and Jesus stands between us and and eternity. You know, I I that that's where I it's resonated, and I you know, I think we've been delighted with the number of people that have bought the book and done it in reading groups, but but but that's the thing about being in a local church and doing the work in a local church. You know, the laboratory's my local church here. The stuff I find that people are hitting here is authentic for me, so I write a book. I'm not saying that'll be authentic round the country, but at least it's authentic in the little laboratory I'm in, and I think that's what people want.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah, and it clearly has resonated with many, many people.
SPEAKER_06So Well, it wasn't written from the desk, it was written from one-to-one work, and you know, it was it's not I I do get frustrated with people who produce Christian material, and then you find that they're just not engaged. You know, where are they in their local church, these people who write this? Are they battling on the front line? And if they're not, how am I meant to believe that this has been tried and tested?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, a good word. Let's let's shift gear from uh Honest Evangelism, which is a book for the Christian, uh, to equip them in their evangelism, to capturing God. Um which is a good old-fashioned evangelistic book, which I mean they're not all that common these days, evangelistic books, are they?
SPEAKER_06Well, it I think the the the big thing I've learned is it's got to be much shorter than I'd like it to be. So I think we've learnt that if you give people a short little book, they actually think, well, I could have a look at that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06But you might want to write a longer book, but actually that's too much for the modern person. So, you know, these books are fifty, sixty pages of a little A5 sort of book. And and I I you know the publishers, the good book company have been very helpful in steering that. So we I did a little Christmas book, very different Christmas about you know, Christmas with the Trinity. And I this is an Easter book on the same thing because it's sort of one pound and you can give it to a mate, and they can have a little read because that's probably what they've got the capacity for.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So it's called Capturing God the Surprising Image That Reveals the Truth About God. So what is the surprising image that reveals the truth about God?
SPEAKER_06Of course it's the cross. You know, can you believe that when we look at the creator God who made the world, we're looking at a man naked, crucified. And then it's asking, as you see the cross, what do you see? And it's the different things that the cross teaches us. So, you know, for example, the compassion of Jesus who says, Father, forgive them, they don't know what they do of the people murdering him. You know, what do you what do you make of that? It's it's justice. It's it's do you realise that God is just, he had to judge all sin, which he does at the cross, but he's also loving. So how those two how do those two meet up at the cross? How can God be love and but also judge all sin? Well here we are, we come to the cross. So it's it's you know, it's trying to say these are the different camera angles of the cross, how do they resonate with you?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and do you find that in evangelism that that's uh a kind of a surprising uh captivating angle to come in on to say, actually the God I'm talking about is pictured by a man with his arms outstretched to the world bleeding to death. Um is that that element of surprise?
SPEAKER_06But it is it is this picture of weakness.
SPEAKER_03Mm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know, and I I think that is very compelling and it's a picture of suffering.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_06So, you know, if someone has suffered, we say God is not just sympathetic to suffering, he's empathetic. He has sent his son to suffer. So it's it it and and yeah, I know, I mean that's it's a glorious privilege to be presenting Jesus, but you've got to believe that God is opening blind eyes because it does look ridiculous to the world as you present someone who's suffering and dying and saying the whole of life is about him. But um and and and therefore the heart of it really again is trying to help people see their sin. If they see their sin, they'll see the need for either to pay for it themselves in hell or let someone else pay for them. And you know, I think again with the book, there's a constant effort to try and awaken people to the seriousness of sin that that they would then go to the cross.
SPEAKER_05And did the book come out of talks that you've given in the past, or did you write this fresh?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, talks really. I mean, I I I write it very much with Carl Lafton at the Good Book Company, and and he sort of listened to lots of Easter talks I'd given and said, Look, look there was there's one from Luke uh d on on the different pictures of the cross, you know, the snapshots of the cross, the soldiers uh how they see the cross, the religious authorities, how they do it, the centurion, you know. Let's let's try and pick something up from those snapshots and and actually see how people engage with with those different views of the cross. What do they make of them?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And what do you what do you hope will happen with the book?
SPEAKER_06Um, well, I hope it'll be a great tool for cr I hope Christians will get it and feel confident that it's a short little book they can give to their friends and have a chat. But again, it goes back to we had another interview or the one-to-one work, you know, Word Ministries from the Front, small group, one-to-one and at home. On one-to-one, you can give the book, but actually with where people are at, you need them to say, What did you think about it? Do you want to know more? Should we open the Bible together? So, you know, these tools are all very well, but they have to be followed up by relationship, which is what Uncover has taught us in the student world. It's been a wonderful result from Uncover in terms of how many Christians have come to faith through it. But it's because uh there's been an interpersonal relationship that it's fostered.
SPEAKER_05Yes. So you want this to sort of stir up conversations with your non-Christian friends and then sort of leave.
SPEAKER_06You know, what just you what did you make of that book about capturing God? What did you think of the different views of the cross?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_06You know, w what do you make of sin? Now that's those are painline questions. Now just to say, again, as I said in another interview, you know, e uh Matthew 10, exit. If they go silent, you go silent. But if they start talking, you keep asking questions. So shake the dust off your feet. If they say nothing, you know, they just shrug, you say nothing. But if they're talking, get them to keep talking. Say to them, come on a Christian sport course, come to Alpha.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And the worst that can happen in our culture is that you get the raised eyebrow. You know, in some cultures you get the raised fist.
SPEAKER_06So I think Yeah, well that's right. I mean, they're gonna go silent on you, and and therefore you know, go back to celebrating them and serving them. You know, their mates celebrate them, keep asking questions about their life, serve them, how can you help them?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That's what we do.
SPEAKER_05So you you've been getting into books and that sort of thing a little bit more in the in in the recent years. Um where do you see sort of book writing and the place of evangelistic literature in in the ministry of an evangelist?
SPEAKER_06Well, if you give a talk, you've got to give people something to go on hearing the word of God with. And that can be a course, but they might not be able to come on a course, that might be a book. Now, all of that is helping the Christian who's bringing their friend just keep doing the work of the evangelist, which is which is of getting the word of God into people's hands. So I suppose it's that. It's just getting behind the sphere of communicating this in different ways. But um, you know, I found that uh an awful lot of people will give a referend or a relation a book and they might well read that book, and you know, that that discharges the the debt of saying, Look, I I I I've tried to tell you.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah. So uh Capturing God is going to come out uh for Easter and uh wanting to prepare Christians to be able to have this resource to to hand out to others. There'll be quite a few people who uh will be preparing Easter sermons and talks and that sort of thing. What would you want to uh advise us um as evangelists, as preachers, as we approach Easter? What should we be thinking of? What should we be preaching about at Easter that will really connect with our hearers?
SPEAKER_06Well, but uh you know, I think that that moment when it goes dark, the darkness at the crucifixion, because the darkness is a sign of God's judgment. You know, it was dark from twelve until three, and um that darkness is the sign of judgment. So God's anger is resting on Jesus. The darkness is a sign of God's anger, his judgment. Who is he angry with? Amazingly, his anger is poured on to Jesus. He cries out, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So he is forsaken, so we need never be. But I do think explaining the wrath of God, the judgment of God, is crucial to understanding you know what what is happening here. So I'm I'm always trying to stand up and winsomely say there is a problem, we are rebels in God's world. And again, getting people lost so that they long to be saved, and again, that's culturally difficult because we're not meant to tell people they're rebels, everyone's a victim, but actually we are rebels and and God judges. And then on on the character of God, in the Bible, God's judgment is net not set up in opposition to his goodness, God's judgment is proof he's good, because he's good, he judges, because there's got to be a final settling up.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_06So I I would I would say that. I think if you get what happened with the darkness, if you can explain the darkness on that Good Friday, then then suddenly what Jesus did becomes so extraordinary.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And then on Easter Sunday, what what are we saying about resurrection that's going to connect with people?
SPEAKER_06Oh, Glenn, you know what? I I mean that's a great question. I always feel I'm a bit weak on the resurrection. But um but I I think that the risen Christ the resurrection is the is the enthronement of Jesus. It is the proof he's king. And because he's king, he's alive now, I can know him.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06Because he's king, he's at the head of history. Because he's king, he is the judge, because he's king, um uh it it it means that um all of creation. So it's getting people to see what it means that he is you know that he is risen is not here. What does that mean to me? And because he's king, he he can he it's shown that um sin has been paid for. Um you know, my sin takes me to the cross. The resurrection means the result of sin which is death is dealt with by Jesus rising. So, you know, all those things are just huge in terms of um what the resurrection means.
SPEAKER_05I don't think you're weakened on the resurrection at all. I remember it it will be twenty years ago this Easter. Uh I heard you at all Souls Legend Place, and you were preaching on Easter Sunday, and I think your your text was Luke 24, and it was the couple on the road to Emmaus, and I'll next road, yeah. And I'll still I'll I'll always remember uh you talking about, you know, the you know, Jesus doesn't throw off the sh the the the cloak and say, It's me, it's me, but you know, he he opens up the scriptures and their hearts burn within them. And and funnily enough, that sort of sent me back to my Bible, and my heart did burn within me as I yeah, met with the risen Christ in scripture. Um and yeah, I can I can I can trace a lot of things back to that that Easter Sunday sermon. So thank you for thank you for that.
SPEAKER_06I'm I stole it off John Chapman, trained evangelist. So I think it was a good one because I repeated what he'd said. He's dead now, so I don't think he'd mind me taking it.
SPEAKER_05No, what's his line? He always says I've I've never had an original idea in my life, so yes, he's uh yeah. Oh, brilliant. Well, it's been brilliant chatting with you, Rico. And uh love to point people towards honest evangelism and uh capturing God, get that by the bucket load, give it to friends, use it in Easter services, and uh and let's get the word of the cross out there.
SPEAKER_06Yes, and be prepared to cross the pain line. It's going to be nerve-wracking as we say the tough things.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes, and as we go through that cross, there is a resurrection on the other side and God's power at work. Brilliant. Great chatting with you, Rico. Thanks, Glenn God bless. Okay, good night. Bye bye.
SPEAKER_00That was Rico Tice talking to Glenn earlier. Uh as previously mentioned, you can get this book from the uh Good Book Company, and we'll have links for it on the show notes for this episode, which is speaklife.org.uk slash TEP152. Uh if you can't remember that, just go to speaklife.org.uk slash TEP, and there's a complete episode list there, so you can click on the right one. I'd like also to say that we've uh just released our January update on email. If you haven't already joined the Speak Life emailing list, then uh you can do so on uh our website speaklife.org.uk, and we'll send you a link to the latest update. Gives you information about uh what what Glenn has been doing and uh some resources and that that we can point you to. If you like listening to the Evangelist Podcast and want to do us a favour, could I ask if you could leave us a rating and review on iTunes? Just go to speaklife.org.uk slash iTunes and click on the link to review us. Uh I think this has to be done either on your iPhone or iPad, or actually on the desktop version of iTunes. I don't think you can do it on the iTunes website. Um, but if you have an Apple device or iTunes on your PC or Mac, then you can do it there. And we very much appreciate it if you could do that. And we'll read the review on podcast on a future episode. So thanks again for your support and for your encouraging emails that we get from time to time. It gives us motivation to keep going and making content that's helpful and that for building up Christians. So I think that's it. Thanks very much for listening and see you next time.