Today on the Evangelist Podcast, Josh Williamson helps us think about the Evangelist and the Church.
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the podcast where we discuss all things regarding telling the good news of Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley. And I'm joined by Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_05Hello, everybody. How are you doing? I wonder what people are doing right now. Do you ever wonder that?
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SPEAKER_02Not on this podcast, not on this podcast.
SPEAKER_05It's so invigorating. Nobody falls asleep on this. It is a service we could provide. We could have a relaxation.
SPEAKER_02And it talks nonsense apparently and it just like drives on and on and on.
SPEAKER_05And it gets into your subconscious, doesn't it? Have you ever heard Dalek Relaxation? Hilarious. It's basically somebody doing a Dalek voice as welcome to Dalek Relaxation.
SPEAKER_04You are feeling yourself getting more and more.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Anyway.
SPEAKER_04Calm. Be calm.
SPEAKER_02I'd love to scroll through your uh subscriptions, Glenn.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Let's let's as a as a treat for people at the end of this episode. Let's see if we can find Dalek relaxation for people. Okay. It'll terrorize them.
SPEAKER_02But that's not what we're all about, is it?
SPEAKER_05No, that's not why I brought you all here.
SPEAKER_02We're going to be talking about uh the evangelist at the church today with Josh Williamson, who we've had on before.
SPEAKER_05A repeat. Yeah. So we had some uh some great uh podcasts with Josh in the past talking about uh preaching, talking about street preaching, uh talking about the life of theology as uh as something that informs the life of the evangelist as well. Um so do go back and check out uh previous interviews with Josh uh if you like what you hear today, because uh I found them very helpful. And I found uh today's very helpful too.
SPEAKER_02Well before we get into that, just uh uh fill us in a little bit on uh what's been happening recently. What has been happening?
SPEAKER_05I'm in between. Uh I did a uh weekend away for the Bristol University Christian Union um a couple of weekends ago, and then next week I'm going to do their uh uh events week um for November. They do an events week in November and an events week in February where they reach out to the university and uh yeah, I'll be speaking at lunch times and evenings and uh I'll be taking Kevin with me, our apprentice. And uh yeah, we really, really hope to have a great time like we did. I think uh I think three years ago I was there to do the November mission. And um that's that's the time sometimes I I I talk about this um there was this girl um at a lunchtime talk and I was just you know saying to people, you know, do you want this Jesus? Perhaps come up to me afterwards and and say if you want uh you know receive Christ. And I've never had such an angry person come up and say, Of course I want Jesus. Who wouldn't want Jesus? You'd have to be mad not to want Jesus. Okay, should we pray? Yes, we should. Okay, let's pray that we're gonna do that. Um I'm praying for more fruit like that. You know, what's that what's that scripture? Is it Matthew 11 that the uh the kingdom of God advances violently and the violent take it by voice? Let's pray we we meet more violent people like her. Um so looking forward to that and putting together our Christmas uh Christmas video.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Tell us about that. We you've been sort of uh uh sending out requests on social media for people to help button and stuff. So fill us in a bit more.
SPEAKER_05I'm not sure how much I should reveal, but uh let me say it is to do with Christmas. There's something about Jesus. Um something about a nativity play, a very special nativity play. And uh I think it's going to be uh heartwarming, I think. Just me trying to think it through and put it together. I've been um moved by what you know, what I think is possible with this particular Christmas video. I think that could be our best yet. That might have something to do with the fact that I will not be in front of the camera. You will not see nor hear me in this in this video. So that I think this could be our best yet. I think we might have we might have struck struck gold with this idea. Um but yeah, so we're f we're filming the the nativity aspect of it on the nineteenth of November, and uh we should hope to release it soon after that. Uh keep us a space in your Christmas uh um Carol's uh uh uh service and that sort of thing because uh there will be three golden minutes for us to fill. Just trust me, just trust me. Leave it leave it blank and and let Speak Life do the rest. Okay. That's my advice. Uh and this uh coming weekend we've got the uh Premier Digital I ni I need to know what this is because I'm I'm hosting the conference.
SPEAKER_02A digital conference, yeah. You it was called something different before, but uh now it's the digital media conference. Premier Digital Media Conference. That's right. Yeah. And uh we're up for an award on the um for kinds of Christmas.
SPEAKER_05So who who knows? Maybe maybe we'll uh we'll uh get a uh another little uh perspex uh brick. That'd be nice. That's a diff a different brick. Oh, you mean a different brick? A different perspex brick. Yeah. Because Emma won for best blogger two years ago at the uh at that thing. So what is it about Perspex Bricks? Is this this is uh what uh motivates people these days? They want they they want the perspex brick. I don't know. Don't knock the brick. Don't knock the brick. But whatever happened to like the pewter mug thing, you know that yeah. You can you can drink champagne out of that. I don't know what to do with a Perspex brick. I've just got too many of them, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh we better get into the interview. We had, yes. It's a long one. Yeah, it's a long one, yeah. Josh Williamson, we've uh had him before. He's from Australia and uh he uh uh preaches the gospel. He's often uh preaches open air.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, does a lot of that and into schools and around churches, and he just yeah, he gets the gospel out and he's so clear on what he's doing and why he's doing it and what the gospel is and the glory of Christ. And he's got such a confidence that the gospel is the power of God for salvation, and so he just unleashes it every chance he gets. But that's why I wanted to talk to him about the church because so often evangelists are in their eagerness to just get out there and preach, they can leave behind the church, despise the church, dismiss the church, sidestep the church. But Josh does not do that at all. He's absolutely um sent by the church, supported by the church, grounded in the church, um getting his uh spiritual nourishment in in the context of church and and wanting to draw those he preaches to into the life of church. And so he's got some brilliant ideas about how you can do that in your evangelism, and we have some great chats as well about how we talk about church in our evangelism. When people have got questions about, oh, aren't all churches full of hypocrites and oh haven hasn't the church done terrible things down down through history? Uh he's got some great angles on how we actually don't throw the church under the bus in answering those questions. Um we still maintain, you know, Christ is is where all the answers are found, but the church is his bride. And uh I I found the answers that he gave very, very helpful, and I hope that other people do too.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well let's uh let hear him then.
SPEAKER_05Well, I'm joined for the second time on the Evangelist Podcast by Josh Williamson. Hello, Josh.
SPEAKER_03G'day Glenn, how you going, mate? I'm going all right. What's the weather doing there? Uh mate, it's slowly melting us and killing us, but that's summer in Australia.
SPEAKER_05You see, uh the majority of our listeners will be in the UK and they they will think that uh Australian weather is only to be uh uh envied. But uh you you you just told me that you you actually envy kind of and and miss being back in the UK, being in Scotland of all places.
SPEAKER_03Yes, when we're sitting on uh 30 degrees plus, knowing it's gonna get hotter with about 90% humidity, you start longing for the cold of the highlands. Uh but then again, once I got back to the cold, I'd probably start missing the heat. I'm just uh a whinging, complaining Australian.
SPEAKER_05Winging Aussie, yeah. Well, that's that's what we all are, anyway. Um it's it's great to have you on the show again. Um last time we spoke about uh a lot about preaching and in particular street preaching and uh we spoke about uh the life of study and theology uh for the evangelists and uh lots of other great stuff like that. If people haven't heard that interview, uh I'd urge them to to check that out. Um but today I really want to um talk to you about the importance of church for the evangelists and uh the the importance of the local church for the for the evangelists themselves, but also the importance of bigging up church in our evangelism and hooking people into the life of church. Um But before I get into all that, um you guys, you you just had um Jeff Durban over, didn't you, from uh uh Apologia Radio, is that right? And and James White as well. How did you get those guys to come and and train your guys in evangelism?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, one of the ministries that I work with is Operation 513. We've been going for about 12 years or so, and uh we had this harebrain idea last year and said, let's let's organise a conference, let's uh see what we can do. And we really didn't think that much of it, and eventually we you know started to pull it all together, and next thing you know, there was 300 people registered, and we had Jeff Durbin, James White, and two speakers from creation ministries, and uh we were really just completely in awe at what what was happening.
SPEAKER_07Wow.
SPEAKER_03Uh but God was at at work encouraging the saints and equipping them for the work of the ministry, and you know, I know we'll probably touch on this soon in the role of the church and the role of the evangelist, but you know, we're convinced that our job is not just to proclaim the gospel but to equip others to do so.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant. And you had uh you had them speaking in Brisbane and in Sydney, is that right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so we had them in uh Brisbane and we took care of the Queensland leg, organized them to speak at different churches, and then we handed it over to some brothers in Sydney, and they took it from there, and from Sydney they went to New Zealand. So we we did a nice southern tour.
SPEAKER_05Nice, nice. And uh and you're a big fan of um uh Apologia Radio as well, aren't you? You you you listen to their podcasts and that kind of thing, and uh you find that that stuff helpful?
SPEAKER_03Well, I d I listen to elements of their uh podcast. Uh there's there's probably only one podcast I'll listen to all the time, although maybe not all the time when I air on the next episode. I won't listen to the evangelist podcast then. Um but uh no, apology is great, it's just a wide spectrum of topics, and I try to get to it when I can and I'd encourage everyone to have a listen.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it is it is great. It gives you that that big sense of like the all of Christ for all of life for all of the world, um, which which I really love about those guys. So yeah, I I I too would um direct people there. I think that's uh uh a really good resource. Um okay, well let's let's get down to uh the life of the local church, and um and as I think of that, I I kind of think of Ephesians 4. Um obviously Ephesians is very much the epistle of the church, and uh Paul can't go through sentences without talking about the the importance of the church. Um and as he talks about the ascended Christ, um he then says uh Ephesians 4 verse 11, uh, the ascended Christ gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ. Um so w as you think about that particular verse, how does that shape where you think the evangelist fits into the life of the church?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it's very clear from that Ephesians 4 passage that the evangelist is not to be independent from the church.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh there's this whole mindset that's very popular, very common is that you know you have the church, you have the people of God, and then you have the evangelist doing his own thing. I can't see that in scripture. I I can't see that presented when you know clearly the evangelist is lumped in there with other uh ministry roles within the church and says your job is to equip them, to train the church for the work of the ministry, so they might attain a unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God. So I can't see how independence comes into that. Now, I understand that evangelists are independent often by nature. Uh we we have sometimes have to have a bit of mongrel in us in that we have to get up and get going and you know to really push things, especially when there's no evangelism happening. But in the midst of that, we need to be in submission to the church. God has given the church, not individuals. He has given us the church as the witness to the whole world. And if we're doing our own thing, if we're being nomads, I mean what's that saying about Christ's bride? What's it saying about that which God has established?
SPEAKER_05Yes. And and if the church is God's mission strategy for the for the world, it it ends up being anti-evangelistic, doesn't it? If you if you want to be apart from there is a great missionary movement, it's called the church, and if you don't want to be a part of it, you know, how missionary are you being? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, exactly. I think a lot of guys that do set themselves independently might do so with good motives. Um but I think they need to study a bit of theology, a bit of the Bible, and realise that you know, if you want to be effective in evangelism, you need to be in a local church working with local churches. Because I mean, think about it. If we go out, we go out and we proclaim the gospel, we see people get converted, what do we do then? Shake the hand and say, Good luck, you're on your own?
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_03No, we we we say go to a local church, read your Bible, be in fellowship with fellow believers, grow, develop in the faith.
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_03But if we're independents, we're hypocrites if we're telling people to go to church and we're not.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And if our message is anything like an apostolic message of repent and be baptized, then you know, surely that's get baptized into the body of Christ. And and uh so very much even even the the sort of the punchline of the evangelistic message has has got to have some kind of church flavour to it, I guess.
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. To make disciples, not just converts and all that. I've I've got a fr I've got a friend who um and and she's got a real heart and she she she has that independent spirit and and that desire to get out there and and and preach the gospel, but she um she often says, I think the church is so sleepy, the church is going to miss the next big move of God. Um what would you what would you say to her? She says, I'm I think the church is going to miss the next big move of God.
SPEAKER_03I I disagree. I mean, if you look at history, and I mean history isn't a subject I absolutely love, especially church history. Whenever there's been a move of God, the churches have been revived. The church has never missed the move of God. I mean, even at Reformation times, you know, that things looked dark, there was darkness in the land. What happens? God sets a movement that begins to reform the church. And those elements of the church that didn't want to be reformed quickly got cut off, and whole new church movements began. So the body of Christ never misses the move of God. It's impossible. I mean, Christ isn't going to work in the world apart from his church. That'd be like me as a husband trying to do something without my wife, saying, Look, you know, I'm going to help everyone else, but I'm going to ignore my wife, I'm going to ignore my spouse. And the church is the bride of Christ. If he's going to work in this world, he's not going to forget the one that he's betrothed to.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes. The church is the move of God. So yeah, get involved, and yeah, absolutely. Um, very good. So so tell me, how has the local church shaped you as a as a as a Christian? Um we'll we'll we'll think theologically and we'll think practically, but what about personally? Um, what is the what does the local church mean to you?
SPEAKER_03Oh the local church is absolutely vital uh for me, my own personal walk. As when you gather gather around fellow believers and you have a pastor over you, these are the guys that are giving a lookout for my soul, they're instructing me, they're chipping off the rough edge edges that I have in my life, they're pointing me more to Christ. Uh, you get a bunch of Christians together that disagree on so many different things as Christians do, you find that just spending time with them, your sanctification grows. You find that you grow in love for the saints. You find that you have to put up with people that you don't necessarily like, but because you're brothers in Christ, you can build each other up in the faith. So these things are beautiful in that they they make me become more like Jesus, they help me conform to be more like Christ. So I wouldn't trade local church fellowship or local church um uh involvement for the world. It's pivotal for me, it's pivotal for my family. I I don't believe my ministry would be effective if I worked independently of the local church. So let let's put a bunch of people who have been saved, who are in the process of being sanctified together, and we'll see what Jesus can do in our midst.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, wonderful, wonderful. So, as as an evangelist, I mean there's there's there's lots of strings to your bow, so you'll you'll go into uh churches and preach, you'll go into schools and preach, you'll go out into the streets uh and preach. Um, in lots of different scenarios, how do you keep church important and prominent in your evangelism? How do you make sure that it's it's not just this independent Josh who's doing his thing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I guess the first way is that I'm in submission to my church. So my church knows everything I'm doing. Um, the they're praying for me, they know what's happening, they know where I'm going. Uh, we're supported by the church. They want to be constantly updated of what's happening, which is wonderful. And then as they send me out, I go out as a missionary from that church. So when I go and evangelize, I can't very well say to people, don't go to church, if I'm an active member of the church. I have to turn around and say, find a local church, find somewhere that loves Jesus, fellowship in them. So I'm constantly trying to refer people back to the church. Now, granted, there are some places, especially in Outback Australia, where there are no churches, there's no Christian witness, that makes it a bit more complicated. So we'll do things like download a sermon from a solid preacher and start listening online, start growing that way. We're still referring back to a church even if it's not uh in that locality. But one of the things that we do in our outreaches, if possible, is that we will meet with local pastors in the area where we're ministering. We'll spend time with them, we'll take them out for coffees. I mean, every pastor loves a free coffee, so they'll have to come out even if they're not interested in evangelism. But we will take them out, we'll share what we're up to, we'll share what we're doing, and say, Look, you know, we can't do this on our own. We're not the church. You are the church. How can we work together to reach the community for Christ? And I I must say that uh most pastors are shocked when an evangelist says that. Most pastors sit back and go, hang on a second, you blokes just come in, you do whatever you please, and you ignore us.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um we're saying, no, that that's not to be the case. We need to work together, we need to be able to refer people back to you. When we leave, when this outreach finishes, I mean, who's there to follow up? Who's there to disciple? Who's there to to see people grow in the faith? Well, that's the church. That's their job, that's their responsibility. Yeah. So we need to work together.
SPEAKER_05And I imagine your arm is much strengthened if you're out on the streets and there literally is a pastor of the church that's just down the road. I mean, like, how much how much more organic and effective is it to be able to say, Oh, and look, here's Pastor Bill, and he is from that church, and and you know, he can he can hook you into the life of his local community.
SPEAKER_03Um do you ever you ever get pastors coming along?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I mean, there's one outreach we do quite regularly in Woodridge, and um this outreach has been running for a few years. Woodridge is a very rough and violent community, it's but one of the highest crimes in my state. But by meeting with pastors, taking him out for coffee, we actually have two pastors that come out nearly weekly now witnessing with us. Now, one of these pastors openly says this this isn't his style of outreach, he's not comfortable doing it, but he's there because he's seen the benefit of it. And the amount of times that we've done ministry and someone says, Well, can you recommend a good church? Or do you know a pastor that can pray for me? We can say, Well, yeah, come over here to the bloke who's trying to hand out tracts. He's he's actually a pastor, and uh he can then switch into pastoral mode, he begins the follow-up, he begins the discipleship. And that's that it's beautiful to have that on the streets with you. It's just to have a minister of the gospel, a pastor who's going, I'm taking time out of my busy schedule just to be in the community to serve, to reach out, and the people seem to love it because they've got now they've got someone they can go to.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it's not just a couple of crazy blokes on the street corner. It's it's it's a pastor of a church. It's church backing, it's church work.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah, brilliant. And do you have kind of uh literature or anything about local churches in in terms to invite people to, or do you appoint them to websites, or how do how do you follow them up and and make sure they get get along to church?
SPEAKER_03So we have a list of churches uh in the area that we'd recommend, uh, and we'll find out roughly where the person lives and we'll find the best local church. We'll say, Look, their details here's their service times, but then we go a step further and would often ask people saying, Hey, look, if you want, if you give me your mobile number, I'll get that pastor to call you and he can arrange a time to meet up with you. Now the pastors know that we do this, so it puts a bit of uh emphasis on the work for them to do to say, Look, if I get a phone call from Josh with someone's number, I have to follow this person up. And they do that. So I get their number, I give it to The pastor and the pastor calls them, they meet together, they spend time in the church, and people begin to grow, which is what we want to see. I'm reminded recently we had that happen at Woodridge. That had to be a God thing. He said, Wow, can I trust in Jesus right now? And I'm there going, hang on, this isn't how it's meant to work. You know, I meant to sow seed and what is it, eight times or something to give it to hear the gospel. 37 weeks. Exactly. And like, you know, this is this is one time, dude. You're not you're not you're not following the pattern. You know, come back, you know, six weeks from now. But no, he he said, you know, can I trust in Christ now? I I mumbled out, uh, sure. I was a bit stunned. Uh he prayed to receive Christ on the street corner, and he said, Look, I live locally, where can I go to church?
SPEAKER_07Wow.
SPEAKER_03And I said, Well, I know a church just around the corner from you. Um, I got his mobile number and I said, Look, I'll call the church and I'll have the pastor follow you up. I rang the pastor, gave the pastor all the details, hung up, turned back to the guy who had just professed faith and said, The pastor's gonna call you, but before I could say anything more, his phone began to ring. He was actually the pastor.
SPEAKER_05Good on him. Good on him.
SPEAKER_03Um that night he was in an evangelistic Bible study, he's now started to attend the church.
SPEAKER_07Wow.
SPEAKER_03And you know, you sit back and go, that's how evangelism should run. We should be able to handball it off to the pastor. Yes. The church gets involved and says, Great, we're co-labourers in the gospel.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Oh, good on him for getting straight back. How how awesome. Um so let me let me throw at you a few questions that evangelists often get asked in evangelistic situations, and the temptation is always to sort of throw the church under the bus when the question gets asked. Um, but I don't think you're gonna do that when I ask these questions. But if you could if you could model to us something of what you'd say, if, for instance, a non-Christian comes to you and they said something like, Um, I don't need to go to church to be a Christian, do I? I don't need to go to church to know God. What what would you say to that?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I agree. You don't have to go to church to be a Christian, you don't have to go to church to know God. But if you are a Christian, if you do know God, you want to be obedient to his commands. I mean, Jesus said, If you love me, do as I say. And we have so many examples throughout the scripture of the church. We have officers of the church being appointed, we see commands of not forsaking the gathering together of the believers. So we have to ask the question if you're a Christian, if you know God, then surely you're gonna want to do what God says and you're gonna want to be with God's people. So while it's true, you may not have to go to church to be a Christian or to know God, someone who does know God should desire to spend time with God's people. And if if there's no desire there, yeah, uh speaking from someone who spent, you know, uh a few years as a pastor, I would be concerned. I'd be going, there's something not right here. You know, you we should be longing to be with the people of God. We should be longing to be with our spiritual family. And if there's no interest, I'd start to wonder, going, has God really been at work in their heart?
SPEAKER_07Great.
SPEAKER_03Now that's not to say they're not saved. I ultimately don't know that. But if you're not attending church, you're definitely going to be very weak in the faith. And I must admit, sometimes you become a bit crazy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03They go off and do their own little thing, and it becomes dangerous for them and for the other Christians they meet.
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, good. I mean, that that's similar to uh the sort of the answer, you know, the faith alone saves, but the faith that that saves is never alone. Um it is attended by good works, but it's also attended by yeah, being a part of Christ's community. Yeah. Great. Okay, what if someone comes and says, um, how you know, how can I believe in Christianity when church is full of hypocrites? And and maybe may m let's let's assume that this person has had a bad experience in the past. How do you how do you actually handle that?
SPEAKER_03If someone says the church is full of hypocrites, I'd probably agree with them and say there's room for one more. Yeah. Um, but that that may not always go over that too well. But you know, the d I guess the thing is the church is full of hypocrites. Yeah. But we know that we're hypocrites. We're sinners who know that we're in desperate need for the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. So our hypocrisy, we know about it, we we're we're aware of it, and we should be fighting it. The problem is the world is full of hypocrites as well. But they aren't aware that they're being hypocrites, and they try to continue their hypocrisy in order to cover up or to achieve their own ends. And it's foolish to think you never say to someone, well, you you go for such a sporting team, but supporters of that team, they're hypocrites, well, why don't you disassociate with them? They never do that in the sporting realm or in the secular field, even though there's hypocrites everywhere. So we have to ask the question, what's the bigger cause here of why someone's not wanting to go to church?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If I think hippo the argument of hypocrisy is just an excuse to not be in the presence of God and his people. And that's obviously what it goes back to. And if someone who's a Christian says, Well, you know what, I don't want to go to church because they're full of hypocrites, again, I'd be concerned for the state of their soul. But if a non-Christian says, I won't go to a church because it's full of hypocrites, well, I see that as a John chapter 3 situation, you know, they're loving the darkness and they hate the light, and they won't come to the light because their deeds will be excused. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Do you ever do you ever take um criticisms of the church on the chin in terms of, you know, um, you know, some people say that in in the States, for instance, that ten o'clock on a Sunday morning is the most segregated hour of American life, that that nowhere are the races more siphoned off into their own silos. And and you know, you so you can point to various instances of where the church has gotten things wrong. Do you ever do you ever take those things on the chin, or what what what do you do when people point that out?
SPEAKER_03I I think the the failings of the church is often a big faith blocker for many people. It's it's an it's an excuse not to believe, it's it's not justification for not believing, but it's a defense they can put forward saying, hey, I'm not gonna be a Christian because you have done. I don't think it's fair, I don't think it's a assessment, but I do think that we need to address the concerns. For instance, there's a big thing in Australia at the moment, there's a royal commission into uh child sexual abuse that has occurred mostly in uh Catholic churches. Now the people watching the news see that and they assume every single church, no matter what church, obviously is full of pedophiles. So when someone comes with that objection, I think we need to lovingly answer them and explain what Jesus said on the matter and point out what a real Christian is and what a true church is. You know, a real Christian is someone who wouldn't do those sort of things. And a real church who loves Jesus certainly would never condone or cover up such actions. So there needs to be a case where the church speaks to the issues, deals with the issues, and says, Look, you know, don't judge us based on what a few people have done. Judge us based on what Jesus says. Is what Jesus says true? And if we're not following Jesus, don't follow us, don't have anything to do with us. But if we're following Jesus, if we're doing what Jesus says, then ask the quest question yourself sh does what Jesus saw with the objections that I'm seeing raised?
SPEAKER_05Yes. Because he says, you know, if anyone harms one of these little ones, it would be better if a millstone were tied around their neck and thrown into the the sea, and you know, if if if if if you hate little ones being harmed, well let me show you someone who hates it even more, and yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, exactly, and you know, the whole child sexual offence issue is is a massive issue, I think, in the Western church today. Uh I've done ministry in several Western countries, and that keeps coming up, and I think we need to have a robust apologetic to deal with it. And using those verses you mentioned is wonderful. Jesus takes a dim view of pedophilia. Jesus says, those guys, man, jail and what they're going to face in jail is nothing compared to what God will do to them on the day of judgment. Yes, and unless of course they turn and trust in Christ, then Christ has fully satisfied that wrath they deserve.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah. And do you ever go on the front foot as well on on those sorts of issues? Because I think more more and more when people are when people uh take a dim view of the church's view on on sex and that kind of thing, I I was invited to speak on uh how could God ever forgive pedophiles um last year. And um just as I was I was like preparing the message, it it it really struck home to me that um the the same week that I was about to speak on this, it came out that the number one search term for pornography in the UK was teen. Um that that people are wanting to look at teenagers, and and by and large, that's people who look underage, if not are underage, and that like that is this epidemic that is sweeping a nation. People wanting to look at sex with those who at least look like minors, and yet at the same time, we identify, you know, pedophilia as as as the worst crime in the world. And I guess it comes back to that kind of hip hypocrisy issue. Um, where where are you going to find release from hypocrisy? Where are you gonna find release from this sexual perversion that is not just that you know Roman Catholic priest over there, but that you know is harboured in all our hearts, and and maybe people need to, you know, come into a church environment in which they can drop the mask, uncover that that nastiness and get forgiven.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I think I agree with that. It's uh we need to be able to come into churches knowing that we can be real. Now that doesn't mean if a pedophile comes into the church, we're just gonna say, go work in Sunday school, mate.
SPEAKER_07No.
SPEAKER_03No, definitely not. Um in a church I pastored once, I was made aware that there was a convicted child sex offender in the congregation. No one knew but myself and the elders. And uh we had a quiet word to him. He knew his boundaries, he knew you know what he was allowed and not allowed to do. But he'd come to faith in Jesus.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03His child sex offences were gone, and he could testify to the grace of God.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now that doesn't mean we automatically go around and say, hey, look, do whatever you want, mate, because we know that sin is crouching at the door seeking to rule over us. And sin is such a dangerous thing. We don't want to put him in a situation where he could be tempted to sin himself or to harm others. And with the whole sexual sin issue, I think churches need to be aware of it. We need to be on our guard for it, but we can't deal with it as a hushed secret, it's a taboo that no one speaks about. We need to have a strong sexual ethic as a church addressing these topics, dealing with these issues, and saying, This is what God says about sexuality, this is what God says about sex and all the things attached to it. Man, it is a powerful thing, it's a God-given thing, sex. But at the same time, if you let it master you, you're abusing that which God has given. Therefore, be alert, but know this Christ can forgive and also strengthen you in the midst of temptations so that you can get through it all. And I think we need to we must take a front foot approach to these issues because that's the issue the world is seeing today. Sexual sin is massive. I mean, the whole pornography situation, abuse is increasing. Uh there's a book I read recently by a missionary in South Africa called Pornademic, and uh mate, I I must admit I felt dirty reading it. But he deals with the issue brilliantly. He talks about the problems, he talks about the concerns, he talks about the fruit, but then he talks about the solution. And he provides this wonderful argument of how we can bring Christ into the discussion and Christ into the battle.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_03And uh yeah, it's a it's a very good book, but you it it's very much a front-foot attack. He's not sitting back and being on the defensive, he's got his bayonets fixed, mate, he's charging in the enemy's trouble.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh but it's a brilliant book, and I think anyone who wants to deal with this issue further should check out that uh resource.
SPEAKER_05Porademic. Okay, yeah. I'll check it out. Um because we've got good news to preach into this situation, and it's not as though the Bible is silent about any of these issues. Um and I think we can we can kind of be cowed into silence on some of these issues. When actually some of the very same scriptures that we might be nervous about uh are preaching good news into this area. Um and uh it's interesting, when I was um uh preparing this talk on on can God forgive paedophiles, I sort of researched into um this this movement called Circle of Friends that was started by Christians in Canada um and it's all about supporting those um who have been sex offenders and who are released into the community. And actually, um what tends to happen in those communities is that the the the town just kind of closes ranks against the sex offender. The sex offender um, you know, can't get a job, can't, you know, be introduced into society, nobody wants them, and so they move onto the next town and onto the next town, and in loneliness, the only you know, they they re-offend massively. And part of that is that they just they're seeking connection with people, and they can't get any legitimate connection with people, so they go for the very illegitimate connection of of of uh of offending against uh kids again. And and the these circles of friends uh were bringing Christian principles to bear and actually, you know, loving the sinner and hating the sin, but but but bringing the the person into community and um and and and being befriending them and and the re-offense rates were just minimal compared to those who are just you know left all alone. So actually, church, if you like, Christian community um uh has a massive solution to some of these problems we're talking about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a wonderful example. I think uh many churches should learn from that. I mean it's it's I I understand the aversion. Uh I've got a friend who works in prison ministry and they have a barbecue regularly, and it's only four convicted sex offenders. And he told me the first time he he did this barbecue, he sat there hearing their stories, and he's going, If you touch my son, I would kill you. You wouldn't be having a barbecue now.
SPEAKER_07Sure.
SPEAKER_03But then as he's as he thought through that, and he's telling me, and he goes, How would you respond? I said, mate, I I would have wanted to kill him too. But as we s we both discussed the issue, we sat there and went, but is the sin they've committed as repulsive as it is to us any more repulsive than our sin that we've committed towards God? Our sin said, we deserve death and judgment, we deserved hell. Yet Christ loved us and forgave us, and surely he can love and forgive the sex offender. He can love and forgive those who have done wrong, not because of what they've done, but because Jesus is so kind towards sinners. And the church must model this message. We must declare that there's not certain sins excluded from the church. You know, you're not allowed here if you're this. And I think, you know, or I I preached for the book of Jonah not so long ago, and I got to to Jonah chapter four, where Jonah is furious that God is still not destroying Nineveh despite their repentance.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I said to the congregation, I said, We look at Jonah and we say, You idiot, don't you get it? God's gracious and kind. I said, But how would we feel if the front rows of this church was filled with prostitutes and child sex offenders? How would that make us feel? And if our response is, God, you need to just wipe them out, then we're no different to Jonah and we have another. Or at least just exclude them. Can the can can they go to the church down the road, you know, which is just a light way of being Jonah. Yeah. Yeah, get out of here, you know, but but it's the same mindset, guys. If we have that mindset towards them, I'm not saying that we're going to become best friends with them because it it's hard to overcome. But at the same time, we need to realise that God's grace is for sinners. Jesus doesn't say I I died for all these different kinds of sinners except for child blessings. He doesn't say that. He says Christ died for sinners, and you know, through the blood of Christ he's able to cleanse us from all sin. We need to have that ethic, we need to have that mindset, and the church needs to be loving, open, but cautious, not giving them access to the kindergarten.
SPEAKER_05No, no. Saying Which in which would be no good for them and no good for the kindergarten, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. That's the message we should be saying. We love Jesus, we love you. We're gonna welcome you into this church with caution, but we love you enough as Christ loved you. And I think that element of acceptance, that relationship that can be built in the church would lower the whole re-offending issue.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, absolutely it would. And and when you think about Jesus drawing together the tax collectors and the sinners, and you you know, I I was thinking the other day speaking from Jesus calling the twelve, and you know, he throws together Matthew the tax collector with Simon the Zealot, and you've got this basically freedom fighter stroke terrorist Simon, who just hates the Romans, and you've got Matthew this tax collector, you know, horrible white-collar criminal arms dealer type, you know, sort, who is, you know, absolutely in cahoots with with the Romans. And he just and and this is his missionary movement. And and as as the twelve go out and and show that there can be unity in Christ, you know, that has mass massive missionary implications. And then in the New Testament, you see the Apostle Paul just saying, you know, think of what you guys were. You were you were the scum of the earth, you were the nobodies, not many of you are noble, and but that that is what's going to preach to it such a fractured world that actually there is one place where you can find inclusion.
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely, and that that just screams to the world that there is forgiveness for brokenness.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we look at you know, the zealot, a terrorist, and go, oh, don't want him, you know, in the church, but then he puts his arm around Matthew, the tax collector, and says, We're brothers. Jesus rescued us, he saved us. And then wouldn't that be wonderful to see in the church today we say, Look, we're just a bunch of hypocrites, we're a bunch of sinners who have been rescued by a loving God. Yes. And we can present to you the fruit of Jesus, the fruit of the gospel. Yeah. And come.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Be a part of this movement. Come and know the one who rescued us.
SPEAKER_05When and and when the world is just so fractured, I mean, you know, some I mean, my my Facebook friends, uh, mainly UK, American, and Australian. And of course, like for various reasons, there's there's massive fractures going on in all, you know, those kinds of things. So in Australia, there's lots of stuff about, you know, a plebiscite about uh same-sex marriage, um, and that's that's you know, splitting people down the middle. In the States, you've got the election, Trump versus Clinton, splitting people down the middle in the UK, you've got Brexit versus Romaine, splitting the country down the middle. Um, how amazing when things just get really fiery and nasty and the self-righteousness is just turned up to nuclear proportions. How amazing when Christians are able to actually model unity in Christ. I think it's a it's a huge evangelistic benefit, actually, the the that unity in Christ that the church models.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I agreed, and you know, no doubt that uh Christians still disagree, and I'm I'm sure you and I would have disagreements on different political issues and views. But at the end of the day we say, well, you know, we disagree on these things, but we're still brothers. We we s we still follow Jesus, and we can disagree, we can friendly argue, we can debate until the cows come home.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But that all means nothing. We're still one in Jesus.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And those things aren't going to divide us because we're united because of the gospel.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think that sends a beautiful picture that we can disagree, yes, but we're still united, and that's should be the church. We should be able to disagree in a loving manner, but united. And as evangelists, we need to be saying that, yes, we know there's disagreements, yes, there are, you know, Christians have various views on politics and theology and ethics, all that sort of stuff, but we're united in Jesus. Yeah, yeah. And even though we're different people from different backgrounds, Jesus is our uniting point, and that's becomes the missionary declaration.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. What about in an evangelistic situation when somebody comes up to you and and they bring up historic crimes of Christianity? So we're not talking about the child abuse cases in the present, but they bring up things like the Crusades or Witch Hunts or the Inquisition. Um at that stage, again, uh evangelists can tend to throw church under the bus at that point and say, well, forget church, just just you and Jesus. Um how how do you respond to historic allegations um about the the the merits of Christianity down through the ages?
SPEAKER_03Well, obviously it would depend on what historic situation we're talking about. Um so for instance, the Crusades is a massive one. And oftentimes when people throw that objection up, they don't actually understand what the Crusades was happening. Um they don't understand the background, they don't understand the context. And oftentimes you start probing that saying, so tell me about the history of the Crusades. What what what was it about? And start to stare at you blankly and say, Oh, it's all about making money and uh killing Muslims.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_03And you go, but you know, you are aware that you know even kings sold vast tracts of land and came back bankrupt from the crusades. What what was their motivation? Or peasants that you know sold their farms so that they could go on this crusade, what what was their motivation? They didn't make money out of it, they come back to nothing, they went and risked their lives. What was their motivation? And as soon as you started examining the historical context, their arguments quickly fall apart. Uh and it's also you know, other issues of abuses in the church. And you know, oftentimes I'll try and give a historical argument, but I'll also go back to this. Yes, but what is a true church? What is a true Christian? Let's look at what Jesus says and go back to the whole thing, you know, the scripture is the authority over the church. And if the church disagrees with the word of God and goes against the word of God, then we haven't got a Christian church. And that's why I have to keep going back. If if someone says I'm going to kill You in the name of Jesus? Well, Jesus said, you know, those who kill you thinking they're doing God a favour, they don't know God. So we say, not a Christian church.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So we have to constantly go back to what does the scripture say? We can use the historical arguments, they can dismantle their worldview, but we have to keep coming back to what is a true Christian, what is a true church, and the scripture defines that. Not me, not them, not the man down the road, the latest academic. It's all about what Jesus says.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, awesome. And do you ever go on the front foot on that one as well, in terms of, well, surely historic Christianity's done some good, don't you think? Do you do you ever go down that roof?
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely. There's been times I've had atheists say, you know, Christianity's done nothing for the world today.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And I said, Oh, you know, have you ever ever been to um a public hospital? And I say, Yeah, of course. And I said, Where do you think the idea of healthcare for everyone came from? Where do you think this idea of hospitals came from? And they look at you blankly and I'll say, uh, what uh have you been educated? And I said, Absolutely. I said, Where do you think that concept came from? You know, where's this idea that everyone should be educated? Yeah. And you start pushing these things, and oftentimes people have no idea. It's like Monty Partner's Life of Brian, isn't it?
SPEAKER_05You know, what have the Romans done for us lately? You know, apart from the aqueducts, the Roman roads, and it's it's all that, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. And you know, so many people don't understand, especially in the West today, where you live in a culture that's very antagonistic to Christianity, we're constantly bombarded in the media, that the especially the white Western Christian male is the scum of the earth, you know, don't trust them. But if you start to study our history and our context, our culture, you start to go, well, hang on, if it wasn't for those white western Christian males that everyone's attacking, there wouldn't be a West. There wouldn't be the world as we know it today, because we're still built upon a biblical worldview. And yeah, there's there's tons of resources out there, like How the West Won by Rodney Stark, who is an agnostic, which is a fascinating book, um, talking about his views. Um, The Book That Made Your World by Vishnow Mengawadi, that's a Christian book. I mean, these resources equip us to answer those sort of uh foolish objections that people have today.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and Atheist Delusions is another good one by um uh what's his name? The uh myself. By David Bentley Hart, that's right. Um that's oh I haven't read that one.
SPEAKER_03There you go.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, I mean he's a he's a great writer as well. Uh and uh yeah, interacting with uh some of the caricatures at a at a uh very academic level, but um but beautifully written as well.
SPEAKER_03Um I guess I'm gonna get another book off the shelf now. Chase that one down. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yes, what's it called? Atheist Delusions Just get it from the shelf. Atheist delusions, the Christian revolution and its fashionable fashionable enemies. So, yeah, that's another. That's another good one. Thank you. I like the well, I I didn't know about the Rodney Stark one, but the Vishal Meg Megalwadi one, um, I'm always quoting it's yeah, a great resource. Um Brilliant. Well, um that's all brilliant. Uh in terms of the church is the place where we grow as Christians, where the evangelist is a gift to the whole body of Christ, which is this missionary body going out to the world. Now unity in Christ is proclaiming where peace can be found. Um and the fruit of the church uh has blossomed in all sorts of wonderful ways that the world uh is benefiting from. Um anything else you want to say about like church and local church and and just inspiring evangelists to prize it more?
SPEAKER_03I guess all I'd say is if you're desiring to be an evangelist or you believe that you are called to be an evangelist, submit to your church, submit to your pastors, they will recognize your gifting and calling. Um they will be able to identify if you truly are an evangelist, not just some bloke that's got a nice idea in his head because he's watched a Billy Graham Crusade. Ummit to your church, attend your church, serve in the local church. While it's wonderful to have a traveling itinerant ministry, serve in your local community. I I I love it the most when I'm doing outreach with my church alongside folks from my church, going, you know, this isn't as big as I'm normally speaking to, it's not as you know uh massive of outreach scale as something I would normally do, but it's just wonderful working with my church.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And going saying, come come to where I go to church. Come come to where I Yeah Come to where I hear God's word proclaimed.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And there's there's I I enjoy that more than speaking to thousands of people at an event.
SPEAKER_05So great. Great. And what's just finally, what's what's encouraging you in in ministry at the moment, Josh? What's um what's lighting your fires?
SPEAKER_03I think the the big area of studying at the moment that's uh really stirring me up is that whole uh the history of the West in regards to Christianity. So the books we referenced, uh that's especially in today, we're trying to undo our foundation so much, studying those areas and just sitting back going, wow, we've got such a Christian foundation that we're so ignorant of that if we pull the rug out, if we remove the Bible, if we remove Christianity, everything we know in Western civilization will collapse. And uh that's just been something that's found amazing, and uh it's been a wonderful apologetic tool to be able to use on those who say, Let's get rid of Christianity.
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Seeing that Jesus wins, yeah, brilliant. Absolutely. He he he's gonna win and he has won, and yeah, his kingdom's gonna spread from shore to shore.
SPEAKER_05Oh mentor that. Amen to that. Josh, it's been fantastic talking to you. Um if people want to catch up with um some more of your stuff, how can they get in touch in in touch with you?
SPEAKER_03Easiest way is to visit uh my website, joshwilliamson.org. That's joshwilliamson.org.
SPEAKER_05Great, great, and we'll put a link for that on the show notes as well. Fantastic. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Josh, God bless you in all you're doing. Thank you, mate, for having me on. I appreciate it. Catch you later.
SPEAKER_02So that was uh Josh Williamson talking to you, Glenn, yesterday. Where could folks uh uh contact Josh?
SPEAKER_05Uh Josh Williamson.org. Um and uh and yeah, he's he's um very good on Facebook as well. So yeah, find him on Facebook, like the page, and you'll be kept abreast of all the stuff he's doing.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Do we know what we're doing next week, Llene?
SPEAKER_05We do know what we're doing next week, Andy. We are talking to Allie Campbell, um, who has been working in uh in youth work uh for a couple of decades now, and um he's gonna talk to us about the family, how our evangelism should think about all ages and and how um we shouldn't just siphon people off into into different uh age categories, but how the different ages in church can be blessings to one another, how that can serve our evangelism, and also how we as ministers of the gospel uh ought to really um uh prioritize family life and and uh do all our ministry from the overflow of a home in which we are modelling everything that we're saying outside the home. So I think that's okay.
SPEAKER_02Well something to look forward to the next time. So I think that's it for now. If you want to share this podcast, then please do uh go to our website which is speaklife.org.uk slash tep. Um you'll see all the episodes there where you can subscribe and uh leave us a rating review and uh and do all those kind of lovely things. So thanks very much for listening.
SPEAKER_05See you next time. And uh cue at Dalek Relaxation.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Dalek Relaxation for humans. Take a deep breath in through your nose. Now exhale through your mouth, softly. Focus on slowing down your breathing into a calm rhythm. Inhale, you are becoming more and more calm. Exhale, you are feeling more and more relaxed. Inhale, calm, exhale, relax, inhale, calm, exhale, relaxed, inhale, calm, exhale, relaxed, continue to breathe slowly and calmly. The eggs and stresses of daily life are floating away. Your tension has been exterminated. Exterminated