Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Paul Williams.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast. We seek to explore issues regarding telling the good news about Jesus. And uh this time we are speaking to someone called Paul Williams. He's been doing uh a mission recently here in Eastbourne. Do you want to sort of say a little bit about the mission?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so Paul is the vicar of Christchurch Forward in Sheffield, um, but he's always been an evangelist at heart, and whatever he's done um has had an evangelistic flavour to it. I I first met Paul at All Souls Lang and Place, and he was put in charge of uh workplace stuff there, but uh he brought a real uh evangelistic flavour to that work and then he was put in charge of evangelism there, and he still uh is a very evangelistic minister and preacher, um, and he does things like what he's been doing this last week in Eastbourne, which is to take a group of people from his church and to go and bless another church by helping out with their week of outreach events. So we've had all sorts of outreach events going on this week. Curries and football tournaments and magic shows and cheese and wine evenings and and uh lots and lots of uh events where we've sought to reach out with the good news and his uh team has helped us. He's been the chief speaker, but but everyone else on the team has uh given testimonies and given talks along the way as well. And so in the middle of all that busy schedule, managed to grab some time with him and talk to him uh not only about his uh conversion, uh not only about his work as uh a gospel minister, uh, but also about a couple of books that he's written. So he's written uh one evangelistic book called Um If You Could Ask God One Question. Uh he wrote that together with Mary Cooper, who uh is a friend of the show, and um he's written another um book recently for evangelists and those who want to get better at evangelism called Intentional. So we have a chat about that as well.
SPEAKER_01Okay, great. Well, let's take a listen.
SPEAKER_03I've got with me Paul Williams, Vicar of Christchurch Forward in Sheffield. Great to have you on the Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks very much, good to be here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, now we knew each other first from All Souls Langham Place. Many years ago, many years ago, when I was a slave, uh cleaning a thousand loos in a year, and uh and you were at that stage since about 2000. Uh what was your job title there?
SPEAKER_02Well, it changed halfway along the time. I was there for seven years. The first few years I was there to look after the workplace ministry, so helping Christians to think about what it was to be a Christian in the workplace, and then creating a bit of an environment from time to time where they could bring their friends from the workplace to something evangelistic. And of course, in the West End, many people would travel into the West End, so it was harder to get them back to their home churches, whereas actually, if we ran lunchtime things, lunchtime evangelistic things, it was a really good place for them to bring their friends along. So that was uh that was evangelistic, but also very much equipping Christians to be faithful Christians, evangelistic Christians, uh in their workplaces. And then during my time there, because of uh staff changes and things, I was asked to take on the evangelism locally as well. So uh mainly running Christian Explored and doing a number of uh regular uh evangelistic events.
SPEAKER_03So that's always been a real passion of yours, evangelism and outreach. When did you sort of realise that that was your thing?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh yeah, interesting. I think really the moment I became a Christian. Um I became a Christian when I was 20. I'd um always believed that God was there. I was brought up in a church-going family. Very big distinction for me now, understanding the difference between church-going and a true Christian family. Uh well, I stopped going as a teenager, stopped going to church. I'm grateful that my parents didn't push me to go. And uh, to cut a long story short, um I became a Christian when I was 23. My brother, having become a Christian at university, he began to share the gospel with me. I began to ask the big questions of life, what is life all about, what happens when you die. I became aware of, I wouldn't have called it this at the time, but I became aware of my sin. Uh, just realizing I wasn't the sort of person I wanted to be, tried to be better and couldn't be, um, wondered about death, those sorts of things. And I kinda now see as I look back that my brother and others were praying for me, and that was clearly the Holy Spirit putting those big questions in my mind. And uh my brother invited me along to an evangelistic event where I became a Christian. And I take you back to that with uh to answer your question because really the very next day I wanted to tell everybody about Jesus. I didn't know how to do it very well, sure. But I can still remember at the time I was working in the newspaper industry, and I can still remember I used to drive around quite a lot, just this overwhelming joy of now being forgiven, almost believing it was too good to be true, and thinking everybody should know this. It was as as if I'd just discovered something that no one else on the planet knew. Of course, those people did, but it felt like that, and I ought to tell everyone. So, in that sense, it wasn't something that I discovered as a sort of a gift or an ability, but I just always wanted to do it and had it as a priority, I guess, as a Christian.
SPEAKER_03Always been a passion then, and uh it's interesting the way that people sort of come to faith often becomes very precious to them in how they share their faith. So it was an event at which someone was speaking that was sort of the the catalyst, was it?
SPEAKER_02And well, you know, that was the the thing that got me over the line, I suppose. Yeah, that was where I prayed a prayer. You know, I can put it down to a date, yeah, but I can look back and say that there were um months before where my brother was gently sharing the gospel with me. We we he wasn't living at home at the time, so we didn't live together, but as I saw him, um he was telling me about his newfound faith in Jesus Christ. Um, and um and then he gave me a Bible which I started to read. I I actually started to read at Genesis 1. He gave it to me and my and my parents as a Christmas present. Right. And I still remember reading it um at Genesis 1. Well, why not? Why not? You opened the book at the first page, don't you? And um uh my brother said to me, uh as he realised I was reading it, he said to me after a few days, um, how are you getting on with with reading? And I said, Well, I I it was okay, but I've stopped now. And he said, Why? And I said, Well, I got to chapter five and everybody died. It was depressing. He said, Why what chapter five of what? I said, Genesis. He said, Why did you start there? I said, Well, it's the first page. Yeah, he said, start in Matthew. And I started reading through Matthew, and uh, you know, really the the stories that I'd heard as a kid um at Sunday school were suddenly alive. Um, and it you know, I know it's a cliche, but yeah, suddenly Jesus was there, as our friend Rico Tys has said many times before, walking off the pages of scripture and into my life. It really I I was amazed at the things that I knew that I was just wowed by. So there was personal relationship in my brother, um, that was a very key thing in becoming a Christian. Then there was reading the Bible, um, just being amazed by uh what I read. And then it and then it ended with an event, I suppose, yeah. I mean uh at least becoming a Christian ended in an event.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it wasn't just one thing, but all those things a personal relationship, prayer, bible and proclamation. Yeah, exactly. And that all coming together. And I guess all those things are very precious to you now in terms of your your evangelism. Um you're now down in Eastbourne this week, yeah uh leading a team from your church in Sheffield, coming down. What are you what are you doing with us uh for this week?
SPEAKER_02Well, what a joy for me. Um it's uh brilliant that uh Mark Breadhouse, who is the vicar down here at All Souls, um, has invited me. And I what a privilege and uh and a responsibility to be able to come down and uh uh and help with a a week of mission. So the folks at All Souls here have worked extremely hard in putting on um really lots of uh small events and a couple of larger events as well, inviting their friends along. Um some of the events are are quite unspectacular, except they are wonderfully and gloriously spectacular as the gospel's being proclaimed. So I've just come right now from a little um uh afternoon tea uh with I'm not sure whether you call them scones or scones down here. Scones. Scones. Uh so scones and uh and tea, and then uh one of the members of the team has just uh shared a little uh part of the gospel from um uh from uh from John chapter six, and somebody's given testimony, and then uh a number of us on the team have just been sitting around chatting to people, asking them what they made of that. So that's just one example of a very low-key event that has been glorious. One one one lady and a husband have said to me they'll probably be at church on Sunday, they don't normally come. So it's those little things. Um so that's really what we're doing. Lots of uh little things like that. I brought uh uh eight people plus myself, nine in all, down from uh the church. And I think one of the things for me is uh not just the joy of being uh involved in something as direct as this, you know, that all these people at all souls have done this hard work of befriending people and praying for people and putting on good events, and then I get the joy of just speaking to these people, they're all warmed up, which is a joy. But um one of the great things for me is training the team before we come down. So um I I have noticed over the years that I can run an evangelism training course at church and people will come, but there's not a real edge and bite. Not many people come, but those who do, you know, if I ask them to learn a gospel outline, they might do or they might not, but they never really have to try it out. But as soon as I said ten weeks ago as we started planning for this event to the team around my dining room table, as soon as I said, we've got to learn to give our testimony, we've got to learn how to share the gospel in a simple way, you know, and all these things, got to lead someone to Christ, they are listening intently, uh, and uh and and then because they know they're gonna put it into practice. Um so I think it's the best way to train people and do evangelism with them, um, and particularly when they know something's coming up, because we're all scared, yeah, and uh and so we learn together. So that's what we're doing really here.
SPEAKER_03So I mean your church is being very generous in in you know giving you and s and and other members from from the church to us, but I guess yeah, you guys are being able to be trained and get get learning on the job and all that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely a two-way thing, and uh kind of you to say that the church is being generous. I just said I'm going, they didn't have a lot of choices. But yeah, yeah, no, it's it's great. And we will benefit in that I always find when I go back after a week of mission that my focus is much better. And um already I can tell, you know, here we are halfway through the week, and uh the team are already buzzing and excited, and and one of them has said to me quite independently of uh of me saying anything to them, uh, you know, when we get back, I think we'll be better at sharing our faith with our friends, which is terrific.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think those intensive weeks do put you on your mettle for for just the rest of the year, and really help. What do you think makes for a good event on mission? If uh if churches are planning either one-off events or a week of events, what what would you say to them in terms of their planning of these such events?
SPEAKER_02You know, I I think I've changed my mind a little bit in in the last few years, and uh one of the events I went to here probably confirmed that. So we over the years at um at uh Christchurch Forward have have run quite a lot of uh events that have taken an awful lot of planning. Um one of the events I think I probably nicked it off you, Glenn, uh the sort of idea of doing something like an ABBA tribute band or something on the next one. We'd never do anything quite as quite as cringy. Oh, you're giving me an idea. Yeah, that's right. Um and then uh and then off that, you know, the the gospel according to ABBA and it's you know it's a huge, huge, huge event. It takes forever.
SPEAKER_03You can do the abba the three abba fathers from the New Testament. I've already got I've got my three points already.
SPEAKER_02We'll we'll get you to come do the talk next time we do it. Um and we've done a number of those, and that they are good, you know, they're they're great, but um for the amount of effort um to do it, but not just the effort, to think what are the conversations afterwards, immediately afterwards. Well, often they're not because you carry on with the band playing, you know, you've had the talk and the band carry on playing and everybody's having a good time. But just on Monday night, as I went to um uh a wonderful um curry night, uh we sat in a curry house, uh one man here had invited uh 20 friends. Here's an interesting thing. He'd actually invited 80 friends, and 20 came, and he said to me, one in four, that's about right, isn't it? Which is which is good.
SPEAKER_03Chapter four.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah, absolutely. And I mean to have 80, 80 friends is is quite something. I think that's something we need to learn learn from as Christians. We usually don't have many, many friends. But back to the event, it was so good because um there we were, i i yes, one man had gone out of his way to organise it, but it didn't take in one sense a lot of planning. We ate together, as we ate together, even before the um even before the talk um and the testimony which we had there, people are inevitably asking us what we're doing there, and already people were talking about the gospel. And then after the talk and the testimony, being able to turn to the person or the couple of people next to me and say, What did you make of that? Have you heard anything like that before? Led on to really good conversations. So I think actually some of the very simple, the the the really simple, straightforward events where there's food, you can sit around together, you have a very straightforward talk, and then and then pick up a conversation. Probably the better ones probably bear more fruit. I mean who knows? Who knows where they bear more fruit, but but probably at the time appear to be more effective than those really big peace events.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I often say that like universities or churches who are trying to plan these sorts of events, you know, work backwards from what do you want to see at the end of the evening? And if you want to see all those sort of good conversations afterwards and that sort of thing, and you want to clear a good space for gospel, you know, proclamation, then yeah, there's nothing better than a meal, really. Yeah. Otherwise, you could fill a week with all sorts of jazzy events, um, and then you kind of um, you know, we're we're in the position of then being asked to say say a few lovely words, yeah, but if they're crowbarred into something where the gospel it doesn't really fit. Yeah, the gospel according to Apple, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Go! Money, money, money. Ah, must be funny. Ah see? Oh, you go that angle. That's nice. Yeah, I like that. That's like dancing queen pericaresis, I don't know. Um, okay, so yeah, so those are good events. Meals and getting people together and not going, yeah, not trying to have the whiz-bang event.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, your point I'm gonna remember what you've just said, really, you know, where do you want to end up? I think that's the that's the point. And we want to end up with just having an environment where we can have natural conversations, finding out what people are thinking, asking them what their questions are, uh, leading off from there, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I wasn't gonna ask this, but it it occurs to me to ask, uh, as an evangelistic preacher, how do you how do you think about um to use horribly mercantile language closing the deal? Uh how do you how do you think about moving people towards a response, moving people towards that prayer of commitment that you said at the evangelistic events all those years ago? Um what what are some of the things you're thinking about as a preacher in terms of how you want people to respond?
SPEAKER_02I I I I think we're a little bit nervous of that these days. I might be out on a on a limb here, I don't know. But um there are some groups within our constituency who I love to bits who will, for example, they will say so-and-so is professing. I think uh that's really not that's really not Bible language. If somebody's saying they're a Christian, unless they're clearly not understanding or clearly living something that is, you know, that that is not Christian, um, that they you can see from their life or or from their words that they haven't actually repented. Unless that's the case, if somebody's saying they're Christian, I want to say, well, they're a Christian, then treat them as a Christian. Um I I I wonder if we're a little bit nervous, you know, of actually doing some of the things that that that people in the past have done. Um lead people to that point of repent and believe and and and and and closing the deal or whatever, you know, it's a bit that's horrible phrase. Horrible. We'll edit that out later. Yeah, yeah. But um so one of the things we've done in preparation is is uh learn how to lead someone to Christ. Now I've given the team a few different sort of things they could do. You know, the A, B, C, admit, believe, confess, um, taking people through that, or the Roman road. Do you know the Roman road? Yeah, yeah, it's all that's explain, explain. Oh, the Roman road. Well, it's Romans 3.23, you know, all sin and fall short of the glory of God. It's Romans 6.23, you know, that uh the ways of sin is death. So you've got sin and you've got judgment. Romans 5.8. Um but uh the uh God demonstrates his love for us in this, and while we were still sinners, Christ died for us, so you've got the cross, and then Romans 10 9, uh gloriously. If we uh believe in our hearts and confess with our lips that uh Christ Jesus was raised from the dead, then we shall be saved. Um so you could do that as well. Or even something very simple, uh Mark 1.15, you know, the kingdom of God is near, it's near, it's not far away, and it's very near at hand. Why? Because Jesus is here, so how do I get in? Repent and believe, explain what repent and believe is. So start again uh with Jesus, you know, believe these things, what are the things you've got to believe? Those are the sorts of things I've gone through with the team. And I and I think we, you know, we ought to be doing that with people when they're at the right point.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02In answer to your question, which I realise I haven't done yet, um what do I do as a preacher? I suppose when I when I'm in one of those set piece situations, perhaps uh you know, from the pulpit, um, I want to think have I given people enough information to be able to lead them responsibly to a prayer of commitment? Yes. So again, I I do love sending people onto a course. You know, I think people are further back, so Christianity explored or whatever the course is is a terrific thing to do, and that that will be somewhere I go. But again, I wonder if these days uh some in our constituency are a little bit worried about praying a prayer of commitment. And I you know, again, maybe it is because of my own experience uh for me that was very, very helpful that um somebody you know took me over the line. Yes. Um and uh if then in my preaching I have explained enough um of of some of the key things, I've talked about sin, I've talked about the cross, I've talked about repentance, uh then I I I think I want to do that. That said, um I wonder if I can do all that in every sermon. So sometimes I'm doing something a bit different, aren't I, in a sermon? So I I I've sort of chop and change a bit, depending on how I'm feeling. And and I suppose if you're not manipulating or giving people not the pressure to do something, um uh having some sort of response is a helpful thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I remember somebody saying some years ago uh when they did a mission for us, and I can't quite remember whet whether it was Frank Ratif or not, but it might have been him. It might have been Roger Carswell. But uh they said n um uh uh never um uh downplay a response when it might be a response of somebody taking a booklet or or praying some sort of prayer. Um even if they don't understand everything, they're saying I like what I've heard, I want to go further. Right. Um and I think sort of following people up with a name and then you know sort of making sure that they are followed up is a good thing. Um so looking for some sort of response I think is a is a good thing. Yeah. Did would you would you be happy to Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03And I and I think it it kind of communicates what the gospel is, even if nobody prays that prayer of commitment. Actually, if you have offered people the chance to say, Yes, I want Christ, I want to cross from death to life, I want this new life that Jesus offers, you're actually saying to people, you know what, you could have new life tonight. Which by itself communicates a lot, because you're not saying, you know, you need a 17-week plan and you need to, you know, go on this pilgrimage and jump through these hoops. You're you're saying that actually, yeah, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, which communicates a lot about the gospel.
SPEAKER_02Um just that's very helpful. It means of course if somebody hasn't responded, then they know there's still a step they haven't taken.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, very good. So as as a vicar of a church, how do you how do you think about and strategize and pray about evangel evangelism in the life of the local church? Where what are the various things that you think about in terms of being a witnessing church?
SPEAKER_02Oh, thanks. Well, you know, most of what I do I picked up from other people. I'm not a critically fresh thinker, so I just borrow ideas really. And uh we we have done week weeks of mission um in various different ways, uh which have been useful. We don't do one every year. Um uh we probably should do one again. We've not done one for a few years. We also have a regular cycle of events. Um sometimes it's been far more structured than others. So that thing of at the beginning of every term we'll have a series of guest events uh followed by a guest service or two, followed by Christianity explored. Um we had that quite rigidly for some years. Um now it's not always quite as uh quite as rigid as that. So we go through different stages of doing things, mixing it up, freshening it up, uh doing different things. Certainly when I when I arrived at Fulwood, there was something that every I think it was the second Sunday of the month, it might have been the first Sunday of the month, I can't remember now. Um the team were putting on something in the evening um uh which was an apologetics uh sort of A regular uh sort of a whatever an issue or an issue-based sermon uh for people to invite their friends to. So that's another way of doing it. I I'm not quite so keen on that because as a vicar, I'm getting up then every month and saying, you know, start inviting your friends to the next one. And I think most people in local churches can feel a little bit hounded if they're being asked, even if you say, Look, we're not expecting you to invite everybody to everything. Um they they keep hearing you saying, invite your friends, invite your friends, invite your friends. So I think sort of once a term obviously the set pieces, um Christmas is fantastic, but although I'm not sure we get a lot of fruit from Christmas, I still think it's a great way of getting people into the building and uh hopefully feeling uh more well disposed towards us, more ready to come to other things. So we've mixed and matched, um and uh the regular thing of through um uh through the regular preaching, I think you don't always want to have somebody come in and do it, the vicar, the curate, whoever it is who's preaching, ought to be be able to preach that the evangelistic sermon. This this text that I have as I'm preaching through the through the Bible lends itself well to calling people to repent and believe, then I will do that. And I think any um any church certainly church of England churches often have a a a large-ish fringe which we do. Um and so we we always have people who haven't yet really become Christians, people who are on the edge, people who basically like what we're about. So, you know, when it comes up, I preach through it. Um and we've usually got a Christian explored course not very far away that we can sort of plug them into or meet up with them one-to-one. So we do all of that. Brilliant.
SPEAKER_03And can you tell any good stories of sort of new birth that's happened at Christchurch in the last year or two?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can. I you know, great, great joy actually looking around at the um looking around the congregation just probably two months ago, and I was able to look around and think they became a Christian two years ago, they became a Christian a year ago, they've become a Christian recently. So the Lord has been very gracious that um uh in in prayer meetings, uh, we went through a stage, we have a prayer meeting once a month, where every month I was able to say somebody's become a Christian, let's praise God for them. Which is which is great. Uh so stories, um, a girl who came to Christian Explorer, she was a student, um, I won't use her name, um, but uh she was a student, uh, came to Christian Explored uh last term. Uh she wasn't really convinced about Christian things at all, very open, wonderful actually in her approach. Uh she wasn't awkward, asked lots of good questions, um, never read the Bible before. Uh by week three or four, she said to me she had a question about um homosexuality because she had been reading the Bible from Genesis 1 and she got through to Leviticus and she came across this bit that she didn't like. Her brother uh had recently come out as a homosexual, and um she said, This seems a bit harsh, and my heart fell as she'd been coming on so well, and I thought, oh, this is gonna be the deal breaker. Let's cut a long story short. We uh we had a special evening where all anybody on the table wanted to think about that issue. We had a separate evening because I didn't want the Christian Explorer course to be kind of dominated by that issue. Uh we we put on a meal on another night, um, sat down with her and a number of the others. I went in thinking this is going to be a battle, they're never gonna come back. And uh it was one of those moments where everybody around the table said, Oh, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Now everyone wants to know what you said.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, really, this has never happened before and it will probably never happen again. It was just it was just the spirit of God working clearly because uh me and my co-leader went in totally terrified, you know, thinking these are hard things to really deal with. This girl has a brother. You know, this is not an academic question, um, as it often isn't. Uh so that's a wonderful story about somebody who's just become a Christian. Uh I I could go on. We do have others, but uh you don't want me to keep on and on and on. So we do we do want to know what you said. The man the magic bullet. There is no magic bullet. I rambled around forever, and uh and it was it was you know, one of the things was um uh in Leviticus uh she was really upset by the way uh it kept saying, I am the Lord your God saying these things. And she had read that um as being uh quite um aggressive, offensive. Right. Yes. We looked at the word Lord, uh he's a you know he's a he's a gracious god. Wow. And he's saying um I'm doing this for your good. This is the kind of God I am. We looked at what he'd just done to the people of God, bring them out of Exodus, out of out out of out of Egypt. So, you know, there were specific things that she had read, and and as soon as I said, you know, he's saying these things because he loves us, he presents himself as a father who cares for us.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that makes sense. I would have said your God. Wow. Exactly. What a different way of thinking. Brilliant. Now, Paul, you are the author of a couple of books, evangelistic books, or one more evangelistic book, one more book on evangelists. Yes, yes, that's right. Um, let's talk about uh if you can ask God one question uh which you wrote quite a few years ago, now when was that?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I think it came out about ten years ago. I can't entirely remember. Yeah, it's about ten years ago, I think it came out, ten, nine or ten.
SPEAKER_03And I really like the approach of this book because you you tackle a whole bunch of questions that people would want to ask if if they got to ask God one question. But what what's your sort of basic approach as you try to handle it? Where have I got a copy of the book? Here we go. So you've there there are questions like uh are you really their God if you're a god of love? Wanna send anyone to hell? How can I be sure that there's life after death? Why do you allow suffering? Things like that. But you've got a a quite a fresh approach to your answers. What what what are you trying to do with all your answers?
SPEAKER_02Well thanks, well that's kind of you. I mean the the book began because that is the question that is asked at the beginning of the Christian Explored course. So um at the time I was working at Ad All Souls Church Langle Place where I was looking after the uh evangelism, as I mentioned earlier, and um and uh we had again and again and again uh run Christiantix Bored courses and had many, many, many, many questions. We we knew what the top, at least in London at that time, what the top questions were, um, and we thought it'd be really useful to have as a resource both for us and uh further afield. Um really as we wrote it, I say we because I wrote it with uh with Barry Cooper. Um he's really the he's a great great writer. So uh he turned my.
SPEAKER_03We've had him on the on the podcast.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. Um well now um uh when when we wrote it, we uh we were really trying to go to Jesus if we could. Yeah. How would Jesus answer these questions? Yeah. Um as you know, the whole Bible is pointing to Jesus. Jesus himself says that. Jesus is the heart and centre of the gospel. Um if we can, why do we want to go anywhere else? Now the the key thing here for me is that I don't I don't think that the other parts of the Bible um are less inspired. I just think it's easier if I can to go straight to the heart and centre of what the gospel is all about. Um from there, if I'm talking about a person, not a concept, that's better. Yeah. If I'm talking about Jesus, I'm I'm very close to being able to talk about the cross and forgiveness.
SPEAKER_03Um so that's really the approach. If we can, that's what we tried to do. And then you're able to say, well, this is how Jesus dealt with the issue of hell. Yes, he talked about hell, and he said, and then suddenly it's not Glenn being awkward.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's the Son of God who can stick up for himself. That's very helpful. I wish I'd said that, Glenn. That is absolutely right. Yeah, exactly right. So it is it is then the issue between them and Jesus rather than me. And also you you you it probably it's a strange thing because of course the the words of Jesus come out of the Bible, but it's very interesting how if I go to the Apostle Paul, some people will say to me, Oh, well that's just what Paul said. Right. Yeah. But I haven't yet had, this is bound to change now I say this, but I haven't yet had anybody say, Oh, that's just what Jesus said. So there seems to be, even in Britain in the 21st century, which I know is becoming less and less and less Christian and churched, yeah, um, there seems to be something about the the words of Jesus and the person of Jesus that carries a bit of weight that people are not so ready to write off. Well, again, if that's how it is, let's use that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. And and what's the value of an evangelistic book, do you think? Why why spend time on this kind of resource rather than just getting on and preaching in church and that sort of thing?
SPEAKER_02If you're an evangelist, I want to say it's a brilliant thing to do. Write your own book. It's been very useful for me that um if people have have warmed to me at all uh while I've been preaching or talking to them, to say to them this is a book I wrote on this on these sorts of issues, um, people are much more ready to accept it from me.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um and and I think read it. Um so that's that's valuable. Um obviously not everybody listening to this is going to be an evangelist or rip or will be able to write a book, but if you've got that in you, then do. So that's been quite useful. Um, you know, I think a lot a lot of people learn it uh uh through different means, don't they? So um having a having a good book. I think a good new evangelistic book has to come out every now and again, just to freshen things up as well. Um so even now I feel there ought to be a second edition of if you could ask God one question, because a lot of the questions have moved on. Some I think all those questions are still as relevant, but there are questions now, ten years later, that are being asked that weren't the top questions then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, things like the the question I often get asked now is um uh you know, um uh what's the what's the point of life? Yeah, right. Now, of course they get asked that question, but that's not in the book. And that only suggests to me that wasn't being asked ten years ago. Hmm.
SPEAKER_03I wonder why that is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't know, just things move, don't they?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, all the time, all the time. And so your latest book is it out with ten publishing? Is it it is ten publishing, yeah. Okay, and uh called Intentional. Yeah. So what's the what's what's the intention behind intentional?
SPEAKER_02Well, I again I think that the the it's kind of it kind of goes with the other book, but it's the flip side. So if if uh if you could ask God one question is a book you can give away to mainly to give away to unbelievers, um, for them to think through the questions and to get a something of the gospel there. Um intentionally is definitely written for Christians to give them confidence to equip them in evangelism. So when I've uh done things down through the years, and I you probably find this as well, if I ask people what is the thing that most stops you from doing evangelism, uh Christians will usually say fear of one sort or another, fear of losing a friend, fear of not knowing what to say is often a thing as well. So in in the book Intentional, I start with the whole thing of fear, how do we overcome fear? Um and that's not easy, I get fearful, um, but how do we overcome fear? And then the big thing after that is to try and say, if if one of the big fears is I don't know what to say and I look at Chump, I'm just gonna look at Charlie, then how can I overcome that? Well, I can overcome that by by equipping people with thinking about how to answer questions. Um and so the book takes a particular approach, which we've touched on already, yeah. Uh trying to go to the person of Jesus to answer any question that comes. Um so uh it wasn't it again, it wasn't my idea, I pinched all my ideas off other people. When I was um at Oak Hill College um some years ago, um Paul Weston uh was on the staff then. He took quite regularly a number of the students off on missions. And uh for one little mission that we did at the University of East Anglia, uh, as he was training us, he said, uh try if you can, when you're asked a question, to say how would Jesus answer that? Um it was revolutionary for me, really. So simple, so wonderful, so obvious. Um, and really I've I've nicked his idea and put it into a book.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant. Brilliant. Can we put you through your paces? Can I can I?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you can yeah, this could be extremely embarrassing.
SPEAKER_03Can I test you now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, do me an easy one.
SPEAKER_03Okay, an easy one. Alright. Uh what about um how can Jesus be the only way to heaven?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I suppose that there's a number of ways I'd answer that. Um I might I I might go to John three. Okay. Okay, so um, here is Jesus with um somebody from another religion. Uh so I'd look at John chapter 3, verse 1. Uh he's with Nicodemus, he's a Pharisee, he's a member of the Jewish Ruling Council. Um so then if I was talking to somebody, I would talk about the fact that uh he was a very if he was a member of the Jewish ruling council, he would be a really good Jew. Um he'd be very serious. Um he'd known his Bible and so that. In fact, if you go on to verse 11, I think it is in John 3, Jesus describes him as you are the teacher of teachers. So here is the teacher, here is the great. If he was to turn up to church on Sunday, you'd definitely go and listen to him. Yeah. Except of course it would be Sat the Saturday Saturday uh synagogue. Uh but you definitely go and listen to him. Anyway, my point is I build up some sort of picture with people about him being an exceptional guy. He wasn't playing around with religion. And yet Jesus says to him, You must be born again. What a surprise. If you're not born again, you won't go to heaven. That's a surprise in verse 3. Here is a religious man who doesn't get to heaven. So uh why is that? Well, he goes on, doesn't he, then, to explain what being born again, you'll be born of water in the spirit, which as far as I understand it, again, I wouldn't go into this with the unbeliever, but as far as I understand that, if I've done the work right, that's Ezekiel 36, being born of water in the spirit, is that the past wiped clean and uh and a new spirit to live a new life. And that's my opportunity then to talk to people about the fact that I have a past. There's lots of stuff that I can't, even if I could live a good life from now on, which I can't do, I still have a history and I can't get rid of that. And I'm terribly ashamed of that, and one day I'm gonna meet God with that. Um wouldn't it be wonderful to have the white the past wide clean and a great future? Um but also to be then be enabled by the Spirit of God to live differently, that'd be great. And that's something that I long for. Isn't it something that you long for as well? And how is that possible? Well, it's possible through John 3.16 that God so loves people, so there's one only son. There's the gospel opportunity for me, and so in a few minutes I can go through that. Why is why is Jesus the only way? He's the only way he deals with the past and therefore gives me, makes me right with God. I mean that's really where I'm heading. Yeah. But I try and do it from the person of Jesus with a story run, a concept. You see, I could I could go to John 14 6, couldn't I? Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and life, no one can stay for me. It's a statement. It just doesn't seem to I mean it's true, I love it, but it doesn't seem to connect with people in the same way that telling a story, yeah, um, you know, and and presenting Jesus in in conversation with Nicodemus does. That's the sort of thing I try to do. I haven't done that particularly well, but and I'm I've thrown in with that some of why I'm doing what I'm doing, which I don't do if I'm actually answering the question.
SPEAKER_03Showed your working, which is good. Showed my work. Um but I mean how Jesus himself answers questions is not always with a statement. In fact, very rarely with a statement, it's always either with another question or then you tell your story. Yeah, yeah. You know, a man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and off he goes. Does this work with something like science? Like if someone says how do God and science fit together? Yeah. How do you how do you speak of Jesus on that one? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, look, it doesn't it it you have got to look at what the question is because you know behind that question there might be a ton of other questions. Yes, yeah. So what I might be trying to do, if I I were to come back with a question first of all, um how to sort what are they really getting at? Um if they really, I mean, I could go very simply on that, is um that that Christianity is about a person, it's about Jesus Christ. I mean I'm in Mark 1.1 straight away. Um now uh Christianity hasn't disproved this person, um, and what is Christianity trying to do? Um then I'm talking about what Jesus did. So that would be one way I could do it. Um it might be that they have um a problem with Genesis. Well, then I might go to uh somewhere where Jesus quotes from Genesis, maybe uh is it Mark 10? I'm trying to remember. Yeah, I've got my Bible open uh and then show how he takes it as you know, he really believes what's going on in Genesis.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um now that might open up a whole question, you know, the reliability, but it depends what their question is a bit. But those are some of the ways I might might go down that route.
SPEAKER_03You're sort of saying again, it's you know it's not me to try to stand for Genesis. Jesus stands for Genesis, do business with him, maybe if he rose from the dead he knows what he's talking about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and one of the things that I say in the in the little book is that um if you've begun the answer with Jesus, it does mean that even if the conversation goes off a little bit, you can easily, because it's conversational, bring it back to you know what I was saying about Jesus? Yeah, it doesn't feel as if you're crowbarring him back in because you've already started with him. Yeah. So um it just seems more natural. Yeah. It keeps me uh the the big thing keeps me focused. I end up talking about Jesus rather than science. You know, actually, if you get me on science and I'm talking to a scientist, I am I am I'm I'm done for.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm toast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And it's interesting when we've thought about the kind of events we might put on as Christians and that sort of thing. And and when you think about what the non-Christian thinks we're able to speak about with any kind of authority or intelligence, they probably don't think we're able to speak very intelligently about very many things apart from Jesus. You know, you know, hopefully they think we have something to say on that issue. So it's probably the one thing that we're we're able to speak about. Um okay, last question. Um obviously you've written intentional to equip everyday Christians in their witness. If you had five minutes to encourage uh a Christian, maybe they say, I'm not an evangelist, or they're just they're paralyzed by fear, or um they certainly don't see themselves as a poor Williams. Um how do you how do you then what a relief. What a relief. Yeah. How do you then uh encourage them? What do you want to leave them with in terms of inspiring them and encouraging them to being a witness day by day?
SPEAKER_02Uh if I had five minutes, I think I would say learn how to give a gospel-centred testimony, a Christ-centred testimony. I think sometimes when we tell our stories, we don't we don't take it very quickly to G or uh really we sometimes don't mention Jesus at all. That's a very simple thing to do. So all the time, you know, sometimes people ask me why are you ordained? Right. The only reason I'm ordained is because I'm a Christian. So I start now and that's easy for me because they ask me that question, but I start with why I became a Christian.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and how I became a Christian.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Which translates to why did you go to church on Sunday? Yeah, exactly. Well, it's it's close by, is not a good answer. Exactly. I met Jesus when I was 17 is a much better answer. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_02So um uh so learn to give a really uh straightforward in three minutes a really good Christ-centred testimony would be a good thing. One of the little the things I say in in the little book Intentional is um never be caught on the same question twice. So I'd made this little rule for myself, and uh you know I don't want to give rules to anybody because they're they're awful, but if you wanted to, you could say to yourself, you know, it's no shame that if somebody asks me a question, I don't know the answer. I'll just say I don't know the answer. In fact, I think that's a great opportunity to go back to them later. I I've never been asked that before, but you know, I may I come back to you as a great answer, I think. It's a great answer. Uh because you're not bluffing it, yeah. You can get a good answer and you start the conversation again.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, but then if I if I say to myself, I never want to be caught on the same question twice, um, when I have had to go away, I found an answer and I've then had a go at answering it. And I've thought, I'm gonna put that to memory. What was the verse I went to? How can I take this to Jesus? And I think that just gives us confidence over the years. So it's not really that you know, the people who've got good answers, some of them are spectacularly brilliant, but a lot of them have just been asked the question, sorted it out, and now they know how to do it. And they look like a real idiot the first time they were asked. Just like we all do. And uh and sometimes you have a complete blank. And I suppose the big thing behind all of that is to keep believing that um you know that that God is with you, He's on your side, He wants to help you. Yet He is more concerned for the salvation of these people than even you are, even the person you love the most, you really want to be saved. God wants them to be saved even more than you do. Um, and uh I don't I yeah, could you blow it? I suppose finally not, but that's the thing that bothers us too much. Yes. And just relax, be yourself, yeah. Make friends with unbelievers, do what you can, and uh keep keep trying to improve a little bit. And uh it might be that next week you don't feel as if you're any better. But if you kept trying to do it a little bit better each time, in ten years' time you will be better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Maybe that's what I'd say. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03That's that's a very good word to end on. That's brilliant. Thank you uh very much, Paul. Um we'll put in the show notes uh how people can get hold of if you could ask God one question. Uh a great read where really people sort of looking over your shoulder as you're doing that intentional kind of evangelism and answering with Jesus. So a great one to read and then pass on to a friend, and then intentional by ten publishing, uh another great read for burgeoning evangelists. You're very kind. Oh well. Thanks for being with us. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01That was Paul Williams talking to you, Glenn, earlier. So just tell us a bit about the books that he has again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I mean the if you could ask our one question book is really helpful. It goes through the 13 questions that people uh are often asking. It's it's the question that starts the Christianity explore course. If you could ask God one question, what would it be? And and I love the Jesus-centeredness of all the answers. Uh and what we're about to do here in Eastbourne is we've got a market stall and we're selling that book, and we've also got a sign up next to the market stall saying if you could ask God one question, what would it be? So it's not only pointing people to the book, which they can take away and hopefully throw a few pennies in into the pot for it.
SPEAKER_01But it is actually asking them the question. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Actually asking them the question. So they've got post-it notes and they can write up their question and post it on the board and hopefully get into conversations that way. And actually many missions around the country have kind of sprung up around this theme. In fact, back in 2010 here in Eastbourne, uh, we did a thing called Ask Eastbourne, which was basically if you could ask one question, what would it be? And then we uh scheduled all sorts of events that sought to answer those questions. So we've found it a really helpful, useful way in in evangelism that opens people up. And so just the question is great, but the book is brilliant too because it gives you some very Jesus sentence centered answers. So do check it out.
SPEAKER_01And where can they find that book?
SPEAKER_03It's at all good booksellers, but uh the good book company um have it. I'm sure ten of those do it, I'm sure Amazon do it, I'm sure. Um you can get it, you can get it anywhere. But um and then interestingly, with ten of those, he's done uh the book uh intentional uh that is for evangelists, and that's very worth getting as well. So uh all good book stores should stock this.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and if you want links to that, we'll put them on the show notes. So if you go to the uh webpage for the podcast, which is speaklife.org.uk slash tep, you'll find the link to this episode and then all the links to to the books, and you can get yourself a copy. Also, if you'd like to leave us a rating and review on iTunes, we'll be very pleased if you could do that. But that's it for this week, then. See you next time. See ya.