Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to comedy writer James Carey.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. Or for the first time. Welcome. Yes, because I think we've got about a hundred new subscribers since last time, and I think uh many have gone to the Gospel Coalition website and Oh that. Seen your article there, because we wrote an article and pointed people to the Evangelist podcast.
SPEAKER_03So welcome.
SPEAKER_02Very slyly. Yes, welcome. Welcome to the Gospel Coalition. Yes, that was a little article I did on the two things you need to know to reach out with the good news. You need to know that uh everyone is different, and you need to know that everyone is the same. Okay, nothing contradictory there then. No, nothing I saw a lovely tweet the other day. Um it was uh taking off the Guns N' Roses song. It says, Take Take me down to the paradox city where the girls are pretty and the girls aren't pretty. Um anyway. That was vaguely relevant. But uh yes, the things you need to know is yeah, everyone is different, so don't just assume that because you're talking to a Muslim, he is like every other Muslim you've ever met, and he you know subscribes entirely to the Wikipedia article that you read on Islam. He might not. So maybe just get to know him as an individual. Yeah, but then realize that everyone's the same, that actually through different ways, we're all, you know, looking for love in all the wrong places, we're all looking for meaning and significance and purpose and hope and freedom and all those sorts of things. Yeah. And if we can tap into those things, then we can have good gospel conversations.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So uh tell us what you've been up to, Glenn. You've been uh travelling around?
SPEAKER_02A little bit. Uh so last week we were at Bridge End. So that's uh myself and uh Kevin Allard, who started with us uh here at Speak Life, and he's an apprentice evangelist, also studying with Union and doing the graduate diploma in theology. Uh so we've got a couple of other students doing that with us. And uh yeah, we were gathered together in uh Bridge End, and uh Mike Reeves was sort of leading us, and we got to hear from uh fantastic people like Peter Meade, who's been on the podcast a couple of times, and uh Bob Letham, just uh a world-class systematic uh theologian, uh also a lecturer on the course, and uh a whole bunch of other people. So we had a great week last week in Wales, and we started up again our learning community here. We've had our students uh doing some systematic theology and some church history and some preaching. Um so that's exciting, that's all been going on. Yeah, and you went up to the Midlands.
SPEAKER_04Last night. This morning, really. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Didn't get back till like after two anyway. Um so that was the Midlands Gospel Partnership invited me up to do a couple of things. So I I uh addressed some pastors there on preaching and uh just having a properly theological view of what preaching is, and I went to Luther's threefold word. Maybe we should we should do a podcast on Luther's threefold word. I think yeah. Um yeah, so basically Luther says, look, uh when you look through the Bible at what the Word of God is, you come up with three things really. Jesus is the Word of God, the eternal word of God. And then the scripture is the written word of God, but also preaching. When you proclaim Christ, you are proclaiming the very words of God, says 1 Peter 4. And there's lots of other verses like that. So uh so Luther says as long as you get those three things going together, then God's voice is being heard. So when you preach Christ biblically, um then you are heralding the very living voice of God. So kind of enthusiasm people about that. And then then I spoke uh about the three doctrines that our evangelism must prize. Maybe we'll release this uh in a future podcast. But um Yeah, just talking about how we need to we need to we need to have a proper doctrine of creation, a proper doctrine of God, a proper doctrine of humanity, and we almost never do in evangelism. And what's the answer? The answer is three two one.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Basically, which is uh a very clear gospel presentation in three Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Three movements? Three, yeah. I don't know. It's a threefold presentation about a threefold God, so there you go.
SPEAKER_04Oh, perfect. I was gonna say three steps, but then I thought, no, you can't say steps.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I don't know what heresy that is. That's that's a new heresy. Um steps steps. Sprinkleism. Is condemned by all the councils.
SPEAKER_04Right, okay. So James Carey, tell us a little bit about him and why he's on the Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he is a lover of Jesus and a writer for the BBC and uh a lover of sitcoms and a writer of sitcoms. He's also on the General Senate of uh of the Church of England, uh as well. But yeah, he's a he's a friend of mine, a Christian who has thought a lot about words and the power of words, about what uh Christianity in public looks like and what it ought to look like, about the value of the arts as we spread the gospel, the value of making things uh beautiful, artful, funny, even uh the shape of the Bible is the is the Bible artistic? Yes. Is the Bible comedic? Yes. Uh what would that mean for our preaching? Well, you'll have to listen in and and hear. But uh yeah, he's just he's just a very interesting guy, uh written a lot for Third Way magazine, and uh has done a lot of thinking about what uh what the Christian gospel looks like when it meets the secular world. He's got a lot of experience in that, uh working in a very secular environment in the BBC. But also uh yeah, he's he's uh ordinary Christian guy who's living out the gospel, and uh I I think uh well I really enjoyed our conversation. I hope others do too. Good. Okay, well let's have a listen then. Well I'm here with James Carey, sitcom writer for the BBC. Thank you for joining us on the Evangelist Podcast. Thank you very much for having me. Brilliant. So you are a sitcom writer. Um what kind of job is that for a Christian? A Christian, I ask you.
SPEAKER_01I mean, what kind of a job is that for anyone, frankly. Um my uh my mum is still coming to terms of it, thinking, what on earth have I done? Yes. How did you come out to her, by the way? Uh yes, I came out, mummy. I think I'm funny. Um oh phew. Uh my parents were always very supportive of it, actually, because I think they realized I think mum my my mum saw an interview with Ian Hislop, and um Ian said that he was very grateful that his parents never put pressure on him to get a real job. And um, so she's sort of taken her cue from that, really, so she feels quite pleased with herself, I think. Yes. Um, I don't know how much she has to feel pleased with, but still. Um but yes, I just think I've always loved comedy. I've always loved comedy and I've always been interested in it. I've always I used to tape it off the TV before on a cassette before there were video recorders. I you know, so that's why I've memorized the Mrs. Richards episode of Faulty Towers.
SPEAKER_03Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Um because I had it on an audio cassette and I just listened to it again and again.
SPEAKER_02I did the same thing with the Sir Humphrey speeches from Yes Minister.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. I was quite late to it. I mean, that's my favourite show of all time. Wow. Um, so I've got them I had them on VHS and I've Yes Prime Minister, I've basically memorised quite a lot of those. Amazing. Um and I've always wondered why, you know, and I've been uh Black Adder, obviously, every every person our age has memorized Blackadder.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Uh I always wondered if you just got Rowan Atkinson to read the New Testament, I'd memorise it. Yes. It's him reading it.
SPEAKER_02Have you heard John Cleese reading the screw tape letters?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. No, I have not.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I'm going to get some of that.
SPEAKER_02It's on YouTube. Get it. Yeah. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Wow, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, so in a sense, comedy is part of who I am. I think it's part of the way God made me, and it's and I started getting opportunities to write comedy. Actually, most of the opportunities I had to write comedy early on were with the Christian Union at my school doing sketches and that kind of thing and doing morning chapel for the whole school. So by the time I got to university, I was already sort of fairly experienced in writing sketches, and I failed to get into Cambridge, uh, not once but twice. Um, I wanted to be in the footlights, I think it's mainly because I didn't know the Oxford Review had their own thing. Um the Oxford University had their own thing. So I I was unsuccessful getting into Cambridge and went to Durham University, like many people who failed to get into Cambridge, and I ended up running the Comedy Review for two years um and being in it all three years, and so I got quite experienced. Um, because I would have been competing with the likes of Mitchell and Webb if I'd been at the Footlights in Cambridge, and so best best avoid those guys, they're really funny. Yeah. So I just got opportunities to do it.
SPEAKER_02And you avoided Barry Cooper at at the Oxford Review, didn't you?
SPEAKER_01I slightly overlapped with him. I did one show with Barry when I was just starting out as it were, and he was just finishing up at Oxford, and uh he had quite a big effect on me actually in terms of he did some really, really funny sketches that I thought, oh man, I just want to do comedy like that.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01And um and I hardly spoke to him for the next ten years, but uh our paths crossed again a couple of times and we've um become uh pretty good friends. So um and he's sort of substantially gone off and wasted his life in evangelism. That's right. And uh here I am uh doing uh situation comedy. Doing God's work, yes.
SPEAKER_02Well we've had we've had Barry a couple of times on the on the Evangelist podcast. So so from Durham, um where did that take you? Did d have you always not never had a proper job?
SPEAKER_01Have you Yes, well, like most people um at Durham, I applied to work for Proctor in Gamble, um, who recruited heavily from the university, and I was unsuccessful in my attempts to work for Gamble because I think they correctly saw that I really did not want to work for them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think they really want people who do actually want to work for them, and that's kind of Yeah, that's I think they have tests and schemes designed to sift people out.
SPEAKER_02So those cunning questions like would you like to be corporate?
SPEAKER_01Yes, or what you know, where do you see yourself in five years' time still working for you guys, not writing a sitcom for the TV? Yeah, which is I think pretty much what I answered. So yeah, my heart was never really in anything else. And after university, I did um some Edinburgh shows with some guys I was at university with and did okay. We got nominated for the Newcomer Perrier Award, as it was called then. There were some opportunities to write, there were some opportunities for sort of rookies to write stuff for Radio 4. Um the show is now called Newsjack, but back then it was called Weekending, and I just started to get a little bit of success here and there. Um, then I happened to think of a good um sitcom that I was able to write at the in my mid-20s. Um because I think sitcom is an old man's game, really. I think you sort of write sketches when you're young and you move on to writing sitcoms. But I happened to think of a sitcom which was about um young management consultants telling other people uh how to run their business, and um because some of my friends who I'd been at Durham with were then working for Anderson Consulting or McKinsey, whoever they lied in the interviews, you mean. Well, yeah, and I remember just thinking, wow, someone my age telling someone twice my age how to run their company. What what arrogance is this? That's funny. So I register about it called Think the Unthinkable, and that did okay. Um we had a nice cast, we had Marcus Brickstock and uh David Mitchell ended up in it at one point. So and I got sort of great one episode had Greg Proops in it, which is a really big Oh, Greg Proops. Whose Land Is It Anyway? Whose Land Is It Anyway uh was obviously a big a big deal for me. Yeah. So um so I I just kept getting opportunities uh to use my gifts to write comedy, and I've I've not run out of opportunities yet. Um I may yet be discovered or tapped on the shoulder and told, no, I think you're done here. Uh it's been a good run, you've got away with it so far, but go and work on the farm like your father did. Did your was your father really on the farm? Yeah, my father and mother and father are dairy farmers, and um we are we have been farmers f as probably since the Normans Norman conquest. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02Do you have dairy farming? Do you have brothers or sisters who have carried on the farming?
SPEAKER_01Uh I have cousins who have who did carry on the farming and have just packed it in. There is now hardly any farming left in my family, just because it is a you know, it's a it's a pretty tough industry to be in. Wow. Um I mean in one sense it's like you know, don't go off and be a comedy writer, stay here and be a dairy farmer. Oh no, hang on, I see how that sounds now.
SPEAKER_02So times are tight. I'm gonna write with Graham Lenahan, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so um so yeah, both fairly precarious industries, really. So it's sort of out of the firing pan into the fire.
SPEAKER_02Okay, brilliant. What do you think? Okay, uh we we kill to dissect, don't we? And um this is this is going to ruin comedy for people. But what is comedy?
SPEAKER_01Ah. Uh I don't know. And um it's a it's a slippery thing. Funnily enough, the the BBC Landmark sitcom season had a Horizon documentary which answered this exact thing.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01Uh it was with Jimmy Carr. It's probably st it'll might be an iPlayer by the time this podcast goes out or not, or it'll be on again, I'm sure. But the these grand unified theories of comedy never really seem to work, um, especially when academics come up with them and they sort of say, Oh, or comedy is basically this or that, or one of my favourite lines about it is um, I think it's Sigmund Freud says that uh comedy is an ex is it's an explosive nervous release or something like that, or he had this he had this theory of comedy, which Ken Dodd then quoted and said, Of course, the thing about uh Sigmund Freud is he never had to play the second house of the Glasgow Glasgow Empire on a Friday night. So it's like your theories about what comedy is are all very well, but okay, there's a thousand Glaswegians now, go and make them laugh.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01That really focuses your mind, really.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01So there's there's stuff about shock and surprise, and there are theories about whether it's power, there's sort of theories about whether it's sort of juxtaposition, those sorts of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um power subverted? Like what's that?
SPEAKER_01I think that's a subset of it. Okay. Um the guy on this documentary had this quite good theory about stuff being benign and stuff being a violation, and then there's stuff that's both benign and a violation, and that tends to be comedy.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01So it could be a pun where you're basically violating the expected meaning of a word, yes, or it could be somebody falling over which is violating the expectation of them walking in a straight line. And um, if it's not benign and it's just someone who doesn't really deserve it falling over, it's not terribly funny. That's sort of tragic.
SPEAKER_05That's fair.
SPEAKER_01But what is benign to you and what is benign to other people is obviously a bit of a move moving moving target. Um, and that's why comedy and offense is such a tricky area, is because you know, everyone's relationships with everything is very different.
SPEAKER_02Do you know that Jack Handy line where he says, um, you know, when I see an old lady like slip on the sidewalk and fall over, I laugh. But then I think, wait, what if I was an aunt and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't be quite so funny.
SPEAKER_01It's another perspective. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So um so yeah, I I don't know really what the theories are other than my you know general rule of thumb of leave the funniest word to the end, you know, those sorts of things.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. But uh it's it's it's like like that shift in perspective and that surprise that that covers a a a bit of it, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh yeah, I think so. And but that's the problem, you see, once you think you've got your grand unified theory, yeah. Someone then says, Oh, what about this? Yes. And you go, Oh, yes, okay.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01So it feels like you know, we have the strong force and the weak force and the electromagnetic force of comedy, but we don't quite know how it all fits together.
SPEAKER_02We need a swing theory and a yes, okay.
SPEAKER_01And then uh maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. So tell tell me a little bit about your Christian story. Like, how have you come to faith?
SPEAKER_01Um, my parents happened to send me to a very Christian school at which I saw consistent Christian witness from members of staff, I heard the gospel, and I realized, huh, this is true, isn't it? This Christian story is true, and the world as a rule does not think it's true. So I can either live like the world and basically deny something I know to be true, or I can just accept it and be a Christian. Ah, okay, I'll be a Christian then. So um it was not it was very much not a blinding light. Yes. Um, it was very much a slightly begrudging acceptance um that the truth of the gospel as presented was easily the best fit um for what made sense of the world and my place in it.
SPEAKER_02And ironically, made you not fit in the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. That's uh that's quite a um that's quite a good observation. Um but um so yeah, that was about the age of uh uh 11, I think. So through school, from the age of about seven, I was exposed to really good Christian teaching, very well presented, going to chapel every morning at this school, um, where it wasn't a chore quite so much. Obviously, it felt like a chore sometimes, but yes, I think a key thing was understand. I remember asking a question once, you could put a question in a box, and I think I asked a question about how does Jesus dying on a cross make any difference?
SPEAKER_03Good question.
SPEAKER_01And I think it was when that was explained about how you know I die with Christ. I mean, we we talk a lot about substitutionary atonement, how I um how he takes my place. I actually I'm I'm slightly more persuaded the Bible is as much into dying with him and being raised with him.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I'm in.
SPEAKER_01Um but that's a slightly splitting hairs um at this point. Um but I realised that once I realised that what is what his death achieves, his perfect life, my sinful life, the swap, the sacrifice, all that kind of stuff, I was like, oh okay, right. That yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So um and so off I went um realizing I would be an alien and a stranger in the world, and as I particularly am in the world of comedy and at the BBC, as you can imagine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what is it like being a Christian in in the BBC?
SPEAKER_01Um fortunately I don't have to spend much time in the BBC. The BBC is one of those places where growing up you're sort of aware of it and you think it's amazing, and the moment you get in the door, it's pretty chronically disappointing and effectively looks like uh another government ministry, um, which in some senses it is. For me, my general BBC experience is not I don't get the sense that the BBC think that Christianity is evil or malign and they're trying to stamp it out. My my sense is that a lot of people I know through the BBC but also through writing comedy, they just don't know any Christians.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's just it for them, it's like Christianity isn't is is not a thing. They don't know anyone for whom it's a thing, or maybe they do, but they try to avoid talking about it. They assume it's not of interest to the wider population. When somebody unbidden, like when the athletes being interviewed, suddenly start talking about giving thanks because uh for giving thanks to God. Sure. There's this kind of panic of like it's talking about God. This is not part of the this is not part of the plan. Yes. Shut shut it down.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_01So which is why most of the BBC religious output is is not terribly um it's not terribly inspiring. I think there's also the fact that religion is not well mediated through television, and religion, uh the gospel in particular, is something that is personal and therefore it's it doesn't it's it's not it's not well televised, is it? Um you can you can sort of get a sense of the atmosphere watching a football match or a cricket match where you really really care who wins.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01But a Christian uh a church service or anything like that doesn't really can poke through the screen in quite the same way. I don't quite know what that is. Um even preaching, um watching good preaching on YouTube or whoever you like on the gospel coalition. I listen to a lot of their stuff. I think there's an in there's a there's a theory of mine which is I listen to loads and loads of podcasts, Christian ones and secular ones, but I do tend to find that's much easier to listen. Whereas if you're watching it, your brain is processing stuff with your eyes incredibly quickly, and your eyes get bored very quickly. Yes. Um, and it just doesn't hold your attention. Whereas if you're washing up or you're cooking or you're doing something else, or even sitting in a chair with your eyes shut, you are listening and and you're not being distracted. So interesting.
SPEAKER_02Does that give you a special love for radio? I know a a lot of your sex comes out for radio.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I've done a lot of radio, and to be honest, I probably if I could afford to live on radio money, I I might not even bother with television.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Basically, I wish I'd been born in the era of of of Hancock, you know, in the in the 50s. When radio was king. Yeah, I do love radio because it does just picture it just c summons up pictures and it's much more about ideas and you're you're you know, you're you're going it's almost going straight from your brain to someone else's brain. It is much more immediate. Whereas with a TV show, there are so many things to distract you, and there are so many things in a sitcom, particularly, that you can get wrong if someone walks into a room and you immediately Look at the room and go, Yeah, I don't believe that's anything that takes you out of the reality of that moment. You know, you get loads of sort of fake things on TV, and it's very hard to re-re-create something extremely well. You know, let's say there's a village fate going on in your sitcom, and you you film this village fate and you look at it and you just think, Yeah, this is a TV village fate, and there's only about 15 people there, and they're very cunning with their camera angles. That that stuff just all takes you out of it. Whereas if you've got it on the radio, got a bit of noise and a bit of this and a bit of that, and you're all that stuff is taken away. Sorry, this is ludicrously boringly technical, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02No, well I th I think it's interesting for for people who have a people who have a spirituality shaped by the word. I think that that is interesting. Um the word creates the world for you already.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And the word is something that we assume is to be read um to ourselves.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And actually, scripture is a script to be read and listened to. Yeah. Um and I think that's one thing that we heralded and yeah. I wrote this um I wrote this play called The God Particle, and in it the the the vicar reads uh a portion of scripture. Um and I directed this play and in the rehearsals, I said to the actor, Josh, who plays the part, I said, Oh, you read that really nicely, you read that like an actor. Uh you have to read it worse.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01People in churches read the word incredibly badly. And so, in order for it not to sound weird, please can you now read it badly? Um, and he he does read it really badly. It paints him and me every time he does it when we do the play live.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01But I think we've sort of failed to understand that scripture was primarily in a culture where stuff wasn't read because scrolls were very expensive, they didn't have printing, and it was designed to be read aloud.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um, once you've seen someone like um the guy called Bruce Kuhn, uh, who is a former Broadway actor, he just performs scripture word for word, line for line, as it were, without changing it, you realise that it's all there. It's it's enthralling when you hear someone read scripture beautifully and brilliantly. And if you're preaching, then it's sort of it's probably done a third of the work for you. Yes. Uh, because when you're preaching, a lot of the time is spending just getting people's heads into the passage and getting people's minds into the situation. Um, whereas you've got someone who's just gonna do that. It's a real shame, it's a bit of a I don't know what to do about all that stuff because I've travelled around quite a lot of churches with this play, and we spend a lot of money on music, and you would never let someone who's just learnt the guitar stand up and lead worship. Yeah. Um, and yet you'd let someone read God's word aloud who really isn't very good at it.
SPEAKER_02And they don't know how to pronounce you know three fifths.
SPEAKER_01They don't know how to pronounce the the fifth words, and uh we're really committed to the word, aren't we? Why why do we do that?
SPEAKER_05Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That doesn't really make any sense to me. And if and if you stood up and read the scripture incredibly well, you probably would get a bit of a oh who do you think you are? That was that was good. Yeah, isn't that interesting that yeah that that became to shift culture because it feels like you know God's word is is a is a sharp sword and it feels like we've shoved it in a scabbard and we we we don't want to get it out.
SPEAKER_02And um I think that's hard in English cultures. And it uh and in Australian cultures. We we've got the tall poppy syndrome. If anyone gets a big head, we chop them down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um But if you ever try to be affective and actually preach to the heart and affect people's emotions, people instantly say, Oh, you're being affected. Um that it's an act, it's a performance, and and none of that should belong in church. What would you say to that?
SPEAKER_01That's a good I mean, that's a good question, but because you don't want to fake emotion.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Because that's one of the things that's um I mean conservative evangelicals, which is probably which is my tradition that I come from, is very suspicious of of the charismatic movement because it can feel very emotionally manipulative if you're on if you're an uptight, over-educated white man, which I am. It can feel like but actually for many people it's not manipulative, it's genuine. People genuinely have an emotional experience and an emotional response to Jesus, which is completely right and proper, yeah, and are moved by the spirit, and that the spirit should move our emotions as well as um transform our minds, as uh as Romans uh Paul in Romans tells us uh needs to happen. Yeah. It's very hard to have your mind transformed if you if your heart's not in it. Absolutely. Um so um so I think we do need it it is both. It is both.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies. That was um That's great. Well, it was Ashley Null's summary of Thomas Cranmer's anthropology. So the author of the prayer book, but there we go.
SPEAKER_01Talking about educated men, that's very good. Ha!
SPEAKER_02So uh you've mentioned uh the God Particle a couple of times.
SPEAKER_01Uh tell tell us what that sounds like horrendous product placement, which I guess in a sense it is.
SPEAKER_02I'd no, I've I've been meaning to ask you about it. So, what what is the God Particle and what are you trying to do with it?
SPEAKER_01The God Particle is a play that I I was moved to write about five years ago about science and religion. And I thought if I write a play about it, it's I'm a comedy writer, so it's gonna be a comedy. It's about a s it's about a a quantum physicist and a vicar who meet and just can't stop talking to each other about science and religion, and they um and they begin this kind of relationship, but also there's some weird things going on. There's a little bit of a science fiction element to it. It's partly inspired, it sounds ridiculous, by a movie I have always loved, which I saw a long time ago called Nuns on the Run. Oh yeah, yeah. Robbie Coltrane and Robbie Coltrane and Eric Idle hiding in the convent. And um there's a bit in it where Robbie Coltrane's character explains the Trinity to Eric Idle. That's right. It's like a shamrock. It's like a shamrock. Um you've got the father, the son, and the holy ghost, the three are one, um, on sort of stuff. And Eric Idle summarizes this back to him. And uh Robbie Coltrane says, Oh, you got it, you really could be a nun. Oh, thanks. Uh does that make any hang on, does that make any sense? And Robbie Coltrane's line, which has always bothered me, says, No, no, of course it doesn't make any sense. Doesn't mean but it doesn't make any sense to anybody. That's why you have to believe it. That's why you have to have faith. If it made sense, it wouldn't be a religion, would it? And he then leans back and a picture falls off the wall and hits him on the head. Um, which is a lovely little kind of divine joke, as it were, about this is what I think of that. And that's always really stayed with me, and I've always been through these secular people I know via the BBC and through friendships and university and stuff, people who think that religion is inherently irrational and that Jesus didn't really du rise from the dead because people don't rise from the dead, and the virtue of faith is making yourself believe something that you know cannot be true. And for some people, that is what the Christian faith must be.
SPEAKER_02And if you've got a lot of faith, then you believe a really absurd thing that you know is not true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And that's the only way, reason, that's the only way that I think some intelligent people can understand how other intelligent people can be um Christians. So the play is sort of a way of me saying, um, I'm an intelligent person, I know people don't come back from the dead. And so in in the um in the in the play, we have at one point references to uh Balaam's donkey, which is talking. So I I I intentionally chose the most ludicrous event that I could think of in the Bible. Yes. And just said, let's let's just have it all out. Let's not try to say, oh, religion, you know, that Christianity is eminently reasonable and normal, and it's not no, no, we have to admit the power of the miraculous, and let's take the most ludicrous thing to talk to the donkey.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so when the quantum physicist says donkeys can't talk, the vicar says, I know that. Therefore, when a donkey does appear to talk, you should probably listen.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's the point, you know. So that's the point, is I get it. So when you know, Jesus can't come back from the dead because dead people don't come back from the dead. Yeah, I know. Yes, he did come back from the dead. That would be hard to believe if that was the only thing in his entire life that he did. But bearing in mind there is testimony of him raising other people from the dead, bearing in mind his birth, bearing in mind his life, bearing in mind his teaching, his rising from the dead is entirely consistent with an extraordinary life, and why a man who never wrote a single book is still the most talked about person in human history. So let's at least acknowledge the fact that something's going on there. And Jesus, and and actually the alternatives, I mean I'm not particularly persuaded by the the resurrection evidence stuff, as in I am persuaded by it, but I don't know how persuasive it is if you've already decided not to believe it. But um, it works for some people, but overall we have to you know we we have to present this miraculous person rather than this reasonable person. Jesus is reasonable and he and he he he really teaches into our hearts and to our minds, yes. But he is also miraculous. The Bible the the gospels make miraculous claims, yes, and for us to diminish them is to is to be disobedient. And I so I think we have to present the absurdity of the gospel, the absurdity of uh of the Christian message, um, because it is wonderful in in its completeness. So the play is a is a conversation about that that lasts about an hour and a quarter, yeah. Um and it's been it's toured the UK over the last few years, and I've just turned it into a DVD. Um so because touring it is doesn't make very much money and uh it's quite time consuming. So stick it on a DVD and then people can enjoy it, watch it, um, and show it to other people, talk about it, all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02People listeners, you should definitely get this because uh I I saw it years ago. When did I say it in St. James Clarkenwell in London?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that would have been about 2013.
SPEAKER_022013. And I remember it was the first time I met you, and I was I was convinced that your ending had a I won't I won't say what this is because it'll be a spoiler, but I I was convinced that your your ending had a uh a a double meaning. And I uh sort of I presented it to you and I said, that's that's what you're getting at. That's what you're getting at, isn't it? And you said, No, no. Not at all. Not even close.
SPEAKER_01Okay, you have to tell me afterwards what that what that double ending was, because I forgot if you can still remember. Yeah, no, I can.
SPEAKER_02I can. I can.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02But it was it was so thought-provoking, and um and I I think you can you can show your friends this um who can be as anti-faith, anti-Christian as as they like. It's uh uh rip-roaring story and very funny and and and very um thought-provoking, really.
SPEAKER_01So I'm well that's very kind of me to say. I I I hope that because I have quite a lot of experience now of writing mainstream TV situation comedy, yes, that it has a familiarity of that and it feels like a a a sitcom, yes, as opposed to a worthy Christian play. Yes, exactly. Um you know, which which also have their place, I have no problem with with drama and and that kind of stuff. But that I can't I can't write that because I I tend to just think of jokes. So um, so the show has that rhythm of it, and um so yeah, but to people um it's being distributed by the good book company. Uh but if you Google God Particle Play, you'll probably find our website and brilliant and and links and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02And we'll put all that in the show notes um as well. And um I mean it's it's interesting, like I mean, one of the points of the play is is that faith is not subrational or anti-rational. Yeah. And yet the play itself is not a rationalistic treatise, it's a comedy for goodness' sakes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's a that's an interesting I mean Yeah, yeah. In one sense, it it's doing it's the play is doing exactly what plays can do, which is exactly what poems can do, which is saying two slightly contradictory things, or or paradoxes, is how we politely call contradictions. Um because ultimately, uh in the very first scene, there is clearly an attraction between these two characters. Well, I'm not spoiling it, but clearly she um Bex, who is the quantum physicist, she sees this guy and she is immediately attracted to him. That is an irrational thing for her to do, and then she has to spend the rest of the play trying to rationalise not falling in love with him, yes, or or it or rationalizing convincing herself that she has not immediately fallen in in love with him because love is irrational, yes, right, and um, and so there's a sense in which I hope the play is showing how the gospel is coherent and there is a rational basis for it, but at the same time, love itself makes no sense to anybody. God chose to love us, He doesn't need to love us, He just loves us, even though we have done we are not lovely, we He only loves us because we are in His image and He is good and He is kind. Um, and there's no logical basis for that. Um I think you know, so there's a sense in which it is a but it's a both hand, which I which again is why on this particular occasion a play is a better way of saying that than than a sermon or a book or a poem or anything like that. I mean I'd love to write a poem.
SPEAKER_02Or a poem, maybe don't don't just don't just the poems, man.
SPEAKER_01No, not at all. No, I need to in one sense the poems are not that dissimilar to writing jokes or writing uh because you're just getting rid of everything that isn't absolutely necessary.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um I just think the it's just the winnowing process of just the economy of the words and and everything and just having double meanings and all those sorts of things. Yeah, absolutely. It's laying in the world.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's it's uh often when I talk about God and science, I I kind of give an illustration which is a little bit like the the the love thing that's going on in the God particle, where you know, imagine a scientist um uh has a uh a lab assistant, and and the lab assistant is desperately in love with the scientist and and comes back, you know, uh after a long weekend and says, Thank you for giving me that specimen the other day, and and I've run all sorts of tests on the specimen and uh I've discovered what kind of um plant it is, and I've discovered an entire ecosystem on it, and I've mapped the genome and all these different you know scientific things, and then the scientist says, Didn't you get it? Friday was February the 14th. It was Valentine's Day, it was a long stem rose. Right. Do you understand what I gave to you? Yeah, and like on one and in one sense, yeah. I mean the scientist understands more about you know that gift than anything else. On another level, they don't get it at all.
SPEAKER_01Uh and maybe sounds like workplace harassment, if you ask me. So you're gonna be very careful.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um that's what happens if you have men and women in labs. Uh that's right. As that professor famously commented and then deeply regretted it. That's right, and he was kicked out of the Royal Society, wasn't he? I know, absolutely astonishing. Astonishing. But these these are the times that we live in. Um that's I mean, that's the thing that I'm I'm more worried about. People it's not people not believing in religion because of science, but of just this amazing uh culture of offense and uh which is very, very shrill and and worrying.
SPEAKER_02And I mean, what are you trying to do about that? What are you doing about that, James? Come on. I mean Um that's a good question.
SPEAKER_01Um keep them ahead down, that's the first thing. At the Keswick Convention uh earlier this year, I gave a talk about comedy in the Bible, and I think Christians from my own experience, Christians actually very easily offended, probably more easily offended than than is helpful. Yeah, Christians do the thing that a lot of um social justice warriors do, which is say, Well, I'm not offended by it, but I'm I I know that other people will be, right? And therefore I'm going to pretend that this is the most offensive thing. Um, so sort of offense by proxy, because being offended is is you know, it's it's very you draw you're drawing attention to yourself when you're offended. Of course, if you know if you're if you're genuinely offended, well that's that's sad for you, but it it is not a reasonable expectation to not be offended. We as Christians will and should offend people with the gospel. Yes, the gospel is an offence. Uh, Jesus deliberately tried to offend the Pharisees. Yes. Um and when they were very angry with him, he didn't run after them and say, I'm terribly sorry you misunderstood me. Uh he called them proper names. He called the snakes, he called them whitewash tombs. He was not trying to be their friend. Um, but obviously he was, he impersonated them. You know, when you know, don't don't pray as the pagans do and they babble, or don't pray and twisting people who fast and twisting. You can imagine him doing doing the face as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just like, oh, they do this, and the Pharisees are saying, Are you doing me? Yeah, yeah, and someone just goes, Hey, it's hey Steve, that is so you, that is um, and uh that was in that was on purpose, you know. Um so what I'm saying is not that we should deliberately set out to offend people, but my point is only there are often justifications for deliberately causing offence and and saying sorry is not the appropriate response, yeah, but this is your problem, not my problem. So you can offend people for good reasons, and uh therefore I draw from that that offence is a very bad way of judging whether somebody should or should not have told a particular joke. There's a whole area there which I think needs to be explored, and which there's been very little literature, actually. There's a there's a book called uh The Humour of Christ, uh which has been out of print for decades. Uh the best thing about it is that the book is by a guy called Elton Trueblood. Isn't that lovely?
SPEAKER_02Nice name. Um is he American by any chance?
SPEAKER_01I think he probably is. Yes. Um there's also another book which I've got but I can't quite bring myself to read by Soren Kierkegaard. I when I think Kierkegaard, I don't think comedy.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Um, so I need to get around to reading that at some point. But I think Christians, I think because our identity is in Christ and not in ourselves, I think we can be jealous for Jesus and for his name. But I think we need to be very careful when we're doing that for ourselves or our constituency or our our team. And I think I think we need to be probably more gracious because people notice when you when you when you suck it up, people do notice. And uh it does mean that we're gonna get bad mouth and abused in the media, and I think that's you know, we're not we're not being locked up yet, and many countries that is not the case, they are being locked up, so yes, let's keep this in perspective.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, do you think is the Bible comedic? Would you even go so far as to call it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, the Bible is comedic, yeah. Uh definitely. Um, again, this I just know I need to write a book about this. Yeah, we we miss the I mean that's we miss the comedy in the Bible because it is complicated, because we are biblically illiterate. The genealogies are not funny, uh, particularly accounts of battles and tales of incest and everything. They're not terribly funny, but at the same time, the there are characters in the Bible, there are people in the Bible who are funny, you know, like Jonah, for example, be an obvious case of someone who is it's sort of for me, he's Hancock. You know, he really is a self-righteous jerk.
SPEAKER_02He's ridiculous, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Who is I'm not gonna go and tell the gospel to them, you know, they they might believe it. Yeah, um that's that's why he's not really, he's not just afraid for himself, he doesn't want you to think they're terrible people, yeah, and wants them to be um rains, have sulfur rained on them. The Bible itself is comic because it it's it has a happy ending. It ends there's a book by Peter Lightheart called Deep Comedy, um, which shows how the garden starts we start in a garden and that there's a fall, but we don't end up back in the garden. We end up in this garden city and uh which goes from glory to glory, and that's you know, the the gospel is is such a sweet truth of love and redemption and kindness and grace, yes, that the only real response beyond gratitude is laughter. There are so many uh situations in the Bible which are which are funny. You know, I think Gideon's a really funny story.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where Gideon is the uh uh I'm I'm don't pick me. Don't you know it's like Moses. I am sending you, oh please send someone else, you know. And that's that's funny because of the juxtaposition of you know, God in a burning bush and a guy going, nah, I don't think this isn't gonna work out. You know, you've probably done your research, but ah no god, sorry. But because we're so familiar with these stories as well, we we miss the inherent comedy in them. And when the sc and when scripture is read really well, yes, this stuff really comes out really well. They often say that the last thing you learn about a culture is the sense of humor. You have to live in a foreign country for a long time before you're getting all the jokes.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, and because we don't really immerse ourselves in scripture, we don't really dive in and live in this world. We we it it feels like whenever there is a joke, we're having it explained to us, like when you're learning Shakespeare at school and your English teacher says Shakespeare is making a joke, and you're Write in your notes, Shakespeare is making a joke. It's a double meaning of the word this or that, you know. Um, so in a sense, I think we we are blind to to a lot of the comedy that is in in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I I think I mean there is that classical sense that you mention about you know, for Shakespeare, a comedy is not so much a laugh a minute, but there's a happy ending. You move through pain and into joy. Whereas a tragedy like Hamlet can be full of gags, and there are very funny bits in Hamlet, but you know, at the end of the stage, the the body count is just epic. Um and and that's and therefore if the Bible story is a comedy, I I often make the point with people that um you know The Life of Brian was voted by Channel 4 as the the greatest comedy, you know, film of of all time. And like for pure laughs in that first two-thirds of the film, it's it's very hard to beat. And I've I've used it in sermons, um, sermon illustrations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and this like won't I go, won't I go with that? It's amazing.
SPEAKER_02We're all individuals, and uh, you know the the meaning of the shoe, I've I've often preached on that, the meaning of the shoe, and they all you know diverge over the the interpretation of him leaving a sandal on the ground, all that. But classically speaking, it is a tragedy. Like classically speaking, there's Brian on the on the cross saying life is quite absurd and death's the final word, the end.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um so I mean, in a sense, I mean, although the ending is obviously has overtones that Christians uh may find offensive, and I I have no problem with Christians finding that offensive. That's that's that's fine, they're not wrong to. Yeah, um the actual crucifixion of Christ is functions as a comic event. Um it's not material I'd open with at the comedy store.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01But in terms of people saying things that they don't realize are true, you know, the amount of irony in that in the in those accounts above him is a sign mockingly saying, This is the king of the Jews.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because it is. He saved others, but he can't save himself. Uh no, he's saving others because he's not saving himself. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Prophesy who hit you as the prophecies are being fulfilled.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I mean, they were just it is littered with these ironies and ironies and ironies. I mean, the the actual cosmic event itself, it's just like God comes to earth as a man, he is the most wonderful man who ever lived, and you're never gonna believe what we did. We killed him?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what? Um, you know, just the the the absurdities of the cross are comic in structure, they're not funny, funny, but they are comic.
SPEAKER_02Um shocking shift of perspective.
SPEAKER_01Uh so yeah, I think the way the way you talk about tragedy still being comic in in tone sometimes, I think I think that's absolutely right. And it has again the most wonderful, happy ending of of um of he is alive. Um it's we could scarcely believe that it's true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And do you and and therefore and faith is quite like laughter, isn't it? Faith is quite like you get the joke. Um and there'll be some people who get the joke and some people who don't get the joke. And sometimes it's difficult to explain to somebody why they should have got the joke if they haven't got the joke. Yeah. And all you need to do is tell the joke.
SPEAKER_01You at best you're gonna get that ah Yeah. That's right. So then you're not gonna get the laugh. You're not gonna get that laugh. That that laugh has gone.
SPEAKER_02Which is very similar to faith, actually. Very similar, you know, people just don't get it.
SPEAKER_01Um and in a sense, going full circle, that's why um religion is very hard to televise.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, because it is an experience that is different from it's it's more akin to uh I think it was Andy Greystone who who explained it. Uh Sky have a thing called Soccer Saturday, where rather than actually show the game, which they're not allowed to do, the premiership football match, they have somebody with some with with who is watching it on a screen that you can't see and telling you about it. Yes, yes. That is religious TV, really. It's somebody mediating something that you can't see.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01And it kind of reminds you of football, and it reminds you of being at a game, but it's not actually the thing.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01So there's a sense in which I think this stuff is a bit of a wild goose chase, which is why you can't replace a church with a screen, you can't have multi-campus screen-based preaching, I don't think, um, for reasons beyond pastoring, but for reasons of of these sorts of things. I think you've got to be in the room when you're preaching. That you know, I'm sure you've experienced a time when you prepared a sermon and halfway through you're getting a sense from the room that your tone needs to shift, or that at least this is not being received in a way in which you'd expect it, or this is having an effect that you that you now realize is it's is not what was part of the preparation.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Beyond boredom, I'm not saying that uh anyone would ever be bored.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01Um but sometimes things just get a bit weird. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and there's no substitute for being in the room. Absolutely. And should we should we finish on that? Like um, your experience of preaching yourself, how do you take all that we've just been speaking about in terms of the place of comedy, the place of irony, satire, the place of the red words? Um how do you take everything that we've been talking about, rationality as well as the miraculous, and and deliver a sermon? What have you what have you learnt about preaching?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think I mean I preach a bit. I don't I don't seek opportunities to preach, but I I I am I'm kind of the D list preacher in my church, if that you know what I mean. I I I kind of tend to do that Sunday after Christmas. Yes, that one which we don't have this year because Christmas is on a Sunday. Um but you know, and I'll do a family service every now and then with a thing for the kids as well and stuff, but but I don't preach a lot, but when I am listening to sermons, I think there are two things that need to happen, which which may actually be sort of slightly new thoughts, but uh a lot of comedy comes from truth. So true comedy is truth. If something isn't true, it's not funny. If it's made up, then it there needs to be that authenticity and believability. When Jesus is satirizing the Pharisees, it's funny because it's true. Yes, that's the only reason it's funny.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, if if there's if he was saying stuff that was literally made up and not true, they wouldn't have been offended. Um so so you you you're you're trying to convey truth, and I think so. There are two things that you need to balance or mediate. Um, you need to mediate the truth of the passage. So you need you need to preach what is in the scriptures, it is his word, it is true. You need to give them what God says, not what your opinion is. But at the same time, you have to be true in the way in which you do that. If you're not a funny person, telling jokes is a bad idea. Yeah. Um, uh, and it so don't do it. Um, try to be yourself, but you know, if there's a fantastic uh podcast called the Comedians Comedian Podcast, which I'm sure you've listened to once or twice, yeah, which is a secular podcast for stand-up comedians, and almost all of them realize that the thing that makes them the comedian that they are is that they've realized that they have to be themselves only more so on stage. And I know that preaching is not a performance in the same sort of way, but what I think really I remember there was a uh my a Vicar from a church I used to go to. I used to say to him when he asked me for crit for his sermons, I said, When you give of yourself, you are really good. When we get when we get the real truth of the word, and we get the real truth of wow, this is how it looks in our lives, guys. This is hard, isn't it? This is hard. I find this hard because of this, and sometimes that will be comic, and sometimes it'll be serious, sometimes it'll be poignant. Um, it it kind of doesn't really matter. Um, but I think um what comedy really teaches you that discipline is is that the truth is really, really important, and therefore you need to be true to the passage, you need to be true and say what the passage is saying, and then you need to say it in a way that's true as you say it. Um and g and the more you give of yourself, I do think, rather than say, rather than quote the commentaries, give the correct interpretation of the script. That's fine, and if you're gonna make any mistakes, the mistake is I would rather be correct than than not. Sure. But I but I think you you need to be you. Um what is that?
SPEAKER_02What is that tangibly? Like when are people not themselves? When can you tell that they are being themselves? What's actually happening?
SPEAKER_01I think when people either pretend that their lives are very, very up together, yes, or when their lives are in a particular way, and you just think, well, it may be that they are up together, in which case we don't really particularly want to hear about that. Um I think we want to hear about the the you know the our our own brokenness and our own need for salvation, our own need for grace and for the spirit to do his work. So I I think we need to hear more of more of that. And actually, it comedy often comes from vulnerability as well. Um and a and a a preacher saying a joke is is fine, delivering a joke is fine. But when they say, Okay, I I needed I needed to know what it felt like to be saved. Let me tell you about the time that my keys were uh flushed down the toilet, and I had to do this, I had to do this, I mean that's gonna be funny, yeah. Um and it's a positive illustration of salvation or whatever, or whatever you happen to be needing at the time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I think the more you can give of yourself, yes, without necessarily drawing attention to yourself, you're you're the fool guy, you're the joke.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01I think that would be a way of harnessing comedy if that's something that you feel that you need to do. It may be that you feel that you're just a straight guy and you want to preach the gospel very straight and you you illustrate beautifully, you do all that stuff, you don't need this, that's completely fine.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But when it comes to comedy, I think the truth is your friend. Yes. Um, and the moment you're sorted doing other people's jokes, yeah. Uh it's that's fine, but yeah, forget that. We've all got live at the Apollo. We we know funny people, yeah. Um and um I think some vicars do sometimes think that they they they could that they could make it if they put their mind to it. And um and I call that that they're church funny. Uh they're not yeah, because the audience aren't really expecting the congregation are not expecting jokes. Yeah, yeah. So jokes are a bit of a bonus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I guess it you're kind of saying be human and be someone who needs saving by Jesus, be someone who actually needs this truth to be true for for you as you preach. Um that humanization process kind of yeah, whether it's funny or not, touches people, doesn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it's it it is quite likely to be funny if it is that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and humans are ridiculous. We are ridiculous, and I think it may be that if some preachers do not want to do this uh and don't want to be at the butt of a joke about themselves, then then they need to take a bit of a look at themselves and go, well, hang on, who do you think you are?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you know, it lays us bare, and I think if we can lay ourselves bare as we lay the scripture bare, I think we have a chance of doing something that is that is helpful.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. That's uh a very good word to finish on. Uh James, I could speak to you all day. Um we've taken in such uh luminaries as Freud and Kierkegaard and uh Elton Trueblood and people like that.
SPEAKER_01But Elton True Blood, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Even him. Um really, really helpful.
SPEAKER_01Not at all, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02No problem at all. We'll put uh all those notes about uh the God particle in the show notes. People do check it out. Uh but James Carey, thanks so much for joining us. Pleasure, thank you.
SPEAKER_04That was James Carey talking to Eugen a week or so ago. It's something that strikes me, it's something I heard at a conference um a few years ago. Uh that one of the most influential places you can be in in media is is a writer. Is uh like a script writer or or something. And he must be in a very event uh influential place really.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And and I mean on one hand, James will be the the uh Christian that a lot of his friends know. There's a few there's a few of my friends for whom I am kind of the only Christian that they know really, who's who's actually out there and saying that they're a Christian. And for James that's that's true of so many of his friends, and and so so I think he um uh thinks about things uh very clearly and mission-mindedly. But also, yeah, the uh the output that he has in terms of reaching the airwaves and and and getting onto TV is uh a reach that uh most of us will never know. Um and so that that ability to tell stories that shape and change people's thinking and uh is is just really vital.
SPEAKER_04So if if folks wanted to sort of get on to more of James's content, um he's got the God Particle Play.
SPEAKER_02The God Particle Play is sensational, and if you haven't seen it, get the DVD, and once you get the DVD you'll want to invite uh them to you know do it in your church and get conversations going, 'cause I think that's a a wonderful way of getting conversations started on the issue of God and science. So check out in the in the show notes the links to the God Particle Play. And then I mean if you're if you're a comedy lover, then uh yeah, tune into the sitcom geek podcast. Right. And uh you can hear him and and Dave Cohen talking about the process of writing comedy, which is fascinating. Uh and I find, not just as a sitcom fan myself, but uh, but also as uh you know wanting to write sermons and that sort of thing, yeah, it really helps with that that process of thinking through what about a story arc and what about characters and what's going on, what what draws people's interest? What is comedy and why is it funny? And all those things actually really help as you think about uh speaking the gospel. So maybe add that to your uh your podcast subscription. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Uh and uh don't forget to subscribe to the Evangelist Podcast, of course. Absolutely. Keep your podcasts here. Don't touch that dial. Don't touch that dial. Keep it, keep it right here. Yeah, what do you say if you're you know I suppose that's the equivalent, isn't it? Keep subscribed.
SPEAKER_02Keep subscribed. Yes. Don't accidentally unsubscribe. I find that I find that on Twitter people are just accidentally unfollowing me all the time.
SPEAKER_04Oh Glenn, oh Glenn. We've had a review from uh Nick Wood. It was a while ago actually, back in July, but um Nick says uh great guys sharing great tips on how I can best love these those around me. Points my heart in the right direction on the commute, thanks. Oh, titled Genuinely Entertaining and Helpful. Oh, that's very good. I don't know which one of us is entertaining and which one is helpful.
SPEAKER_02I'm just genuine. You're the entertainment. No, that's not true, I'm not genuine at all. Um that's interesting, like I never I never hear these reviews, and Andy just sort of reads them out to me live, so I guess so we get the live reaction. But I I'm just wondering, are there lots of reviews on there that are just dreadful and you're choosing not to read them out?
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_02Are there lots of this is the worst thing? What a waste of time. No? No. Okay, well that's good.
SPEAKER_04That's good. If you really hate the Evangelist podcast, give us a bad review.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm not I'm not asking for bad reviews. I'm just expecting them.
SPEAKER_04No, no, it's uh with good course. Quite good.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Nick. Yes.
SPEAKER_04If you'd like to leave us a review, we'd like to thank you. Uh if you'd like to visit speaklife.org.uk slash I love te p, you can get a free gift if you um if you leave us a rating and review on iTunes.
SPEAKER_03Oh, very good.
SPEAKER_02What's what's the gift or is that secret?
SPEAKER_03Okay. A little present from yourself. Dear listener, you are you are in luck.
SPEAKER_02So, Glenn, uh next week next week, Nate Morgan Locke of Life Explored Fame. Um so Nate Morgan Locke did the sort of the Christianity explored youth edition called Soul, and a lot of people know him from that. He's been on the Evangelist podcast a couple of times along with Barry Cooper. He together with Barry uh have written Life Explored, which is the next edition of Christianity Explored. And those two, together with Rico Tice, have just launched this very uh compelling evangelistic course that takes you through the Bible in a number of sessions. And it is beautifully shot and interesting. Which, you know, that's that's unusual for for a lot of evangelism. Uh and I'd love to I haven't yet uh we haven't yet recorded the uh the interview with with Nate, but uh what I really want to ask him is um yeah, what is the place for aesthetics in our gospel presentation? What is the place for story? What is the place for being compelling and and trying to be beautiful in our gospel presentations? And why have they tried to be beautiful? And yeah, what are they hooking into? What's what is your doctrine of humanity that says I'm not just gonna download doctrine on people, but I'm going to paint a beautiful picture and invite you in. What's going on with that kind of evangelism? Because that's what they're trying to do with Life Explored, and I think it's very exciting. So we'll have a chat about that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, well, uh, you heard it here on the Evangelist Podcast. Keep it here, keep it real. Stay subscribed.
SPEAKER_03Stay subscribed.
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