Today on the Evangelist Podcast, the online pastor Rod Clark.
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm Andy Brinkley and uh here's Glenn. Hello Scrivener.
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SPEAKER_02And also on the app there'll be a a page to sign up. You can sign up and get our newsletter and and our news updates and everything, which will be helping to keep everyone informed of what's been going on recently. Absolutely. Just before we go into Rod Clark's interview, uh just tell us what happened on Saturday, because he went out with a group from Eastbourne and uh into the town centre to speak to people.
SPEAKER_03It's incredibly low-tech. And uh it's just uh there were 12 of us on Saturday, we met together, um, and for half an hour I I shared a little bit from Isaiah chapter 25, and and how you know Eastbourne and the whole world is you know under the shroud that's called death, but uh you know, Jesus has swallowed up the shroud and offers us feasting joy, and I just as I said, you know, let's let's be thinking in those terms as we talk to people as we go out on the streets. Uh we went armed with uh invitations, that's our entrance into the conversation, and we say, We'd love to invite you to church, and we had um four kind of central Eastbourne churches uh on there with the times. And uh and as they're looking at the invitation, we then say, uh do you have a faith yourself? Or do you go to church yourself? Or um, you know, who do you think Jesus is? Or something like that. And uh I mean, interestingly, so we had six pairs hitting the streets doing that, and we came back after an hour, and uh we had thirty-six names of people that that we'd had good conversations with that we wanted to pray about. And at the same time, I think there were five rebuffs. And by a rebuff, all that was meant was people were like, oh no, I'm fine, and they just they took the invitation folder to put it in the p in their pocket, or you know, that's kind of the worst thing that happens.
SPEAKER_02No umbrellas out or scram bags around the place.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean it's it's often said that you know in in in our part of the world the worst that we get is a raised eyebrow. In most parts of the world they get a raised fist. So can we handle the raised eyebrow? I think we can handle the raised eyebrow. So we did that. 36 people interested and and had some kind of gospel gospel conversation with. Two guys prayed to receive Jesus. Uh another another few people um we, you know, prayed with on the streets, they had various needs in their life, and we prayed with them. You know, that was that was pretty that was a pretty good use of an hour, I would have thought.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_03Um and uh funnily enough, um one of the guys who um uh prayed with another guy to receive Jesus. It was his first time ever doing street evangelism, he's quite quite a new believer. His pastor phoned me up during the week and said, Um, you know, we've got this guy, he's really keen and he wants to do something evangelistic. Have you got anything? So we just invited him along, it was his first time, and and he got to see a guy just absolutely struck dumb by the gospel. Um He took him through um the Wordless Book. And uh big shout out to ten publishing. So ten of those have produced the wordless book. It it exists in lots of different forms around the place. There's just four colours and each page is a double page spread of a colour. And I've seen it done with a book, I've seen it done with beads on a necklace so you can you can give people a necklace, say, hey, it's a free necklace, but can I tell you the story behind it? And the the the four coloured beads or the four pages are black, red, white, gold.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Black, you're talking about sin and our trouble. You know, there we are stuck in the darkness and you know. Um so the sin, then there's red for blood, but Christ came and and paid for our sins, then there's white, and he right rose again to give us his purity, and then there's gold, and he offers us this wonderful future.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's good for international folk. That's why that's why we got them.
SPEAKER_03But in fact, the the two people um who actually prayed to receive Christ were both English and and um and it really worked with them. Just that simplicity, I guess, cuts to the heart. And so, yeah, it took them through. Black for sin, red for the blood of Christ, white for our righteousness in him, gold for our future. And um and then there's a very helpful sort of page at the back that just goes through those colours again and then sort of suggests do you want to pray? Do you want to say sorry about your sin? Do you want to say thank you, Jesus, for dying for me? Do you want to say, Come into my life and and and make me clean and uh you know, give me the hope of heaven? And a couple of people uh prayed in just that way. And who knows what what that means in terms of eternity? Um but it's it's a pretty good sign. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. How how important do you think it is to to have someone out of the blue come and talk to you about Christianity? I mean, how how often do people more than you might think.
SPEAKER_03I think it's more important than many people think. I uh I was in church recently and and some statistics were given about adults that came to faith as adults. And there was a survey done back in the nineties, and and the survey said friendship evangelism is so important that actually ninety-two percent of all people who come to faith as adults know a Christian. And uh and the witness of that that Christian has been important in them coming to faith. And I sat there and I thought, okay, that means eight percent have had no Christians in their life whatsoever, but a stranger has led them to the Lord, which is interesting. So I did a little digging into the statistics and it turns out that yes indeed, um, in this survey, was it was back in the eighties, but in uh nineties rather, um, in this survey, eight percent of of these four hundred adults uh came to faith purely through the witness of a stranger, which is like thirty thirty-two out of the four hundred, right? Which, you know, if you looked around a church at four hundred and you say those thirty-two were converted through stranger evangelism, wouldn't you get excited about doing it? But the statistics uh are even more interesting because it said actually um twenty percent of all those converts said that the witness of a stranger was very significant, even though they they knew other Christians in their life, but a stranger shared the gospel with them and it was very significant. Said twenty percent. So what's a that's eighty. Eighty in your church of you know, 400 found uh stranger evangelism very significant. And 69% of all those converts said that um the witness of a stranger was significant. So I think that gives us great uh encouragement to keep on scattering the seed. Yeah. So it does surprise us every time when you hear of people encountering the gospel and they go, This is brilliant news, what do I need to do? Um but it shouldn't. I think the more we scatter the seed far and wide, the more we do see, yes, there is hard soil, uh, but the more that we see there's good soil as well. The more the the more you scatter, the more you see those different soil types.
SPEAKER_02Um this is uh especially evident on online evangelism. Yes. And uh notice I'm doing a segue here in the interview. Yes, because she's an online pastor. She is the online pastor. And uh she's uh putting stuff out there which could be seen by anybody you know in the world and it's um a massive open field really.
SPEAKER_03It is, and and the there is that spillover. And but what I like about um Rosa's ministry, she's employed by the Diocese of Lichfield in England and and in the Church of England, and um and she really wants to have that local focus. And yet she'll tell a story in our interview about how you know a friend actually who's in America, sort of listening in on this local ministry, yet through the internet it's a global ministry, and finds faith in that way. So, yeah, absolutely. There's with with all these things about stranger evangelism and and and that sort of thing. Yes, obviously, witness within your own family is most effective. And then witness among your friends, and then witness among your work colleagues in sort of concentric circles, out it goes in terms of its effectiveness. But yeah, I think especially in the internet age, there's just that ability to scatter and to see God prove himself to be far more evangelistic than we ever are. So I really I really like what Roz does. We'll we'll we'll hear about what Roz does in a second. She really wants to have a local focus, and I think manages to have that local focus, but then the world is listening, and as it leans in, it it starts to hear good news. Yeah. Okay, well let's let's hear Roz Clark then. So we've got with us Dr. Roz Clark, the online pastor. Great to have you on the Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Glenn, thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Now you are an online pastor. What on earth does that mean?
SPEAKER_00Well, I've spent most of the last uh 15, 16 months or so trying to work that out. Um, so I'm employed by the Diocese of Lichfield in the Church of England. Uh, they came up with the job um rather than you know seeing it somewhere else and thinking, oh, we must have one of those. So uh it has been quite an experimental sort of time uh trying to work out what an online pastor is and what I do. The remit um is to work with sort of broadly speaking a 13 to 25 year old age range to be uh encouraging Christians to be reaching out to those beyond the church or maybe on the fringes of the church, um, to be providing uh sort of networks that can build into community for those who might be feeling a bit isolated in their churches. So Lichfield is a very rural diocese, it has some real inner city urban areas too, but a lot of rural churches where you know, if you're a young person, you're a teenager, um, you know, it can be very easy to feel like you're the only one. And so uh, you know, they decided to see if maybe uh social media could be a way of uh encouraging uh people in those kind of situations to be connected with others and to stay connected with the church. Obviously, you know, this is not unique to Litchfield. 13 to 25 is the age where people leave the church in vast numbers, and so you know, part of my remit is to try and see what I can do uh maybe to stem that tide.
SPEAKER_03And how long have you been doing the job?
SPEAKER_00Uh since May last year, so yeah, not quite 18 months.
SPEAKER_03What made you think that this was the job for Ros Clark?
SPEAKER_00Well, it was my vicar, actually, uh, who knew I was looking for a job and he saw this advertised and he phoned me up and said, Well, Roz, you do spend all day on Facebook until decades away.
SPEAKER_03Do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00I know, do you know, it's I found myself um a few months ago suddenly realizing that I wasn't spending enough time online. And I think part of it is because I'm so used to thinking of being on social media as procrastination and not what I'm really supposed to be doing. And I do have to remind myself sometimes that actually that is the job. Yeah, it's okay to spend a couple of hours just hanging out on Facebook because you know that is the job. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03How fun. How fun. And what I mean, what did you do in life that sort of led you up to this this path?
SPEAKER_00Well, um, it's obviously it's not been like a a career path that was obvious from the beginning, because you know, as I say, this is a new job. Um, it's only existed for you know the last 15 months or so. So it wasn't like this was the plan, um, but obviously God had a plan. So I I mean I've done various things. I've I've been a math teacher and I've been a chef and I've been a church worker, and mostly I've been a student. So, yeah, so I have a uh master's and a PhD in um my PhDs in the Song of Songs. Um, so that's not immediately making you think, oh, must go and be an online pastor. But actually, one of the requirements for the job was that they wanted someone with theological education because a lot of the job is about producing content and being able to do things like lead Bible studies and um reflect on difficult issues and you know deal with pastoral situations as well. So all of those kind of things, and then yeah, and then I just I guess I have been a pretty avid embracer of social media for the last I don't know, 10 or 15 years at least. Um, it feels a very natural environment to me. I'm quite a strong introvert, and I find face-to-face interactions with people, you know, I love it, but it but it is really draining and exhausting for me. And you know, in the past where I've um thought about doing church work and that kind of thing, you know, I've always been quite nervous about that because of just the amount of people contact. Whereas this really suits me. Um, you know, there is quite a lot of people contact, but it's quite constrained. And then when I'm at home, you know, you're on the computer, it feels very different. Um, yeah, so it just it does just suit me really well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think that that theological content to what you do is is so important, especially as you're pioneering this kind of role for others, because I can imagine people just hanging out and just being with others, but I think what what you do very well is is bring Jesus into the conversation, bring scripture, bring experiences of the Christian life. I mean, last night you were just you were hosting uh a Bible study on your Facebook page.
SPEAKER_00Um, so that was exciting. So um, you know, that that was an idea I stole from Justin Welby, um, who held a uh Facebook Bible study a few months ago, and it was wonderful. You know, he um was there with with somebody else and they were sort of talking together and then answering a few questions uh that people had sent in. But obviously there were hundreds of thousands of people because he's the Archbishop of Canterbury. Um so you know, it didn't it felt like you were watching a Bible study really rather than engaging with it. But I just thought actually that's great. Let's try that with a smaller group within my Facebook group um and use that as a a way to look at the scriptures together, to encourage each other, um, you know, and and to be more of that community together. And it there were some technical issues. Um, my internet was not quite up to um the speed required for Facebook Live. Um, but nonetheless, we had we had a really good time, and I think you know, there are always going to be limitations to an online work. You know, there are things that you just can't do that you would do in face-to-face. You can't give someone a hug, you can't, you know, make them a cup of tea and sit with them when they're crying, you can't read someone's body language or you know, see what's in their eyes. But nonetheless, you know, there's a lot that you can do, and and certainly better than nothing, and in some ways, easier for people who aren't used to that sort of group, who you know maybe are going to churches but wouldn't would be a bit nervous about going on to a Bible study group where they might be put on spot, where they'd be scared about saying the wrong thing, um, or even for people who aren't um a member of a church regularly at all, but think actually I would quite like um to look at the Bible a bit more. Here's a way I can do that that doesn't feel threatening.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03What are some of the other things that you do on the online pastor page?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do um well, we've tried various things over the years, over the year, um, and some things have worked for a while, and then uh, you know, other things have been great. One of the things that's worked really well has been the online pastor clinic. So that's just two hours when I say I will be online. Uh, you can ask anything, we can discuss anything, um, and we've had some really great conversations there, you know, some real pastoral issues that have come up, but also questions of theology. Why is the church like this? What about this thing that's going on in the world? So that's worked really well. Uh on Sundays we have a church check-in, which is the thing that I've really enjoyed. Um, you know, because part of what I'm not trying to replace local church at all. Um, so part of what I'm trying to do with the Christians in the group is encourage them to be more involved in their local church. Um, and so church check-in is just a really uh great way people share something from the church service they've been at that day, whether it's something they learned in the sermon or a song that they loved singing or you know, something that happened uh that you know was really meaningful for them. And it, you know, that um obviously you have to be at a church in order to share that, but then you know, that that kind of builds our community within the group as well. Um so yeah, all kinds of things that we've tried.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant. And how do you kind of uh balance between your your online role and obviously I mean you do things sort of face to face with people and and and show up around the diocese? So how do you how do you balance the online and the local face-to-face stuff?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been interesting, and I think it will be different at different stages of the job. So over the last year I've spent quite a lot of time going out and meeting people, not least because most people's first question is is exactly what yours was. What what on earth is an online passport?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00People don't know what it is, and I found the easiest way to explain that is to talk to someone and say, Well, look, this is this is what I'm trying to do, and this is how, and this is how I could support what's going on in your church, and so on. So I spent quite a lot of time going around sort of deanery synods and church PCC meetings and and this kind of thing, um, you know, explaining to church leaders what I do and encouraging them to think about how the internet could uh support what they're doing uh locally. This year, my focus in sort of going out and meeting people is much more on going out to youth groups and student groups and that kind of thing, and and saying to young people, actually, look, you know, this is a safe place for you to be online. Here's a place where you can come and talk about what it's like being a Christian at school or at university, or you know, ask those questions that you might be a bit nervous about going to someone in your church to ask because maybe you think they would think you should already know that, or you know, it's a bit personal and you feel a bit vulnerable. Um, you know, so that's that is the plan uh for this year. And I I guess you know, I try and have maybe something once a week at least where I'm going out and and talking to people uh face to face. And then you know, there's all the kind of meetings and stuff that come with just working for the diet. So, you know, there are quite often weeks where I'm thinking, oh, I just really need a day in the office to you know get and like I say, time online that I have to remember to um you know actually block out to to spend. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. How do you make sure that you're kind of driving people towards that sort of local church experience? Because it's very easy. These days, that there are lots of people who watch God TV and they never darken the doors of a church, and you know they they are Christians and would identify themselves as Christians, but in no sense sort of members of the body of Christ in any kind of tangible sense. Yeah. And I guess there's always that danger with online stuff. So how do you actually hook them into the life of the church?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, obviously there is a danger with that, and I can't, you know, kind of physically kind of force people into their local churches. And you know, there's a limit to what I can do. You know, I can't be sort of phoning everyone up and saying, Well, where were you there? Um, so church check-in is a re has been a really helpful um reminder. It just sets the expectation on my part that people are at churches. Um, and so I think you know, people might not be, but at least they know that I expect them to be, and I'm not saying you should be here instead of church. And in terms of what we do in the Facebook group, on Sundays, that's all we do. You know, there's nothing else that's happening there that could look church-like. And then, you know, we've had really good discussions about church and uh why it's important, what it's there for, what people struggle with. We had a lovely moment actually, we were having a in an online pastor clinic, we were having a discussion about church, and one lady uh posted something saying actually she always sits on her own at church um because she doesn't want to assume that other people will sit will want to sit next to her. You know, she's a single lady and and she doesn't go with the family, and and so she just kind of sits on her own at the back. And I, you know, before I could finish replying to her, uh, someone else in the group who goes to the same church as this lady had already posted to say, you can always come and sit next to us, Sue. And it was just it was a really lovely moment, and obviously something that makes a difference, you know, week by week for her as she goes to church on a Sunday. And I don't know that that conversation would have ever happened in her church. Um in that space, that sort of slightly more neutral space online. She did feel able to say it, and uh that happened. So, you know, we we very much talk about church, you know, and our individual churches. Um, so there's that, and I think there's also um about recognising that your local church isn't going to be perfect, isn't going to necessarily be full of people who are naturally going to be your best friends, isn't necessarily going to provide you with that kind of fellowship. Particularly as young people, I think you know it's hard, it's important, but it's hard to build those relationships with people who are much older than you and whose life is very different from yours. And so to say, well, look, you might be missing some of that in your local church, that's great. Find that here, but then that gives you, you know, the kind of spiritual resilience and and ability to go to your church and say it's not perfect, but I'm gonna come here and serve and and give whatever I can to the the local community.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I guess that example of the the woman sharing about you know, not wanting to sit by herself and not wanting to thrust herself on others, it kind of it kind of shows some of the benefits of online ministry as well, doesn't it? That people share themselves so much more online than they would do face to face. Have you seen that happening more widely?
SPEAKER_00I was talking to someone about this the other day actually, just that so many of the natural barriers that we put up in society are just they just are not relevant online. So, you know, we all do it, don't we, when you meet someone for the first time and we make judgments about the sort of person they are, you know, based on what they're wearing or what they look like or what accent they've got or you know what job they do or all kinds of things. And actually, online those are things that you often don't discover until very, very late in knowing somebody, and so people can be taken at face value on the basis of what they say, and that gives people who might not normally feel like they have much of a voice, a real voice, you know, everybody's heard in the same kind of way, and and it's been lovely to see that building up in the in the group the you know, the real respect that people have for each other and uh the sort of kindness and and thoughtfulness towards one another, and it's really in a way that I hadn't expected, attracted a lot of people who are very much on the fringes of society in different ways, you know, and it's been it's been great to see that they found this a safe space. And you know, when I've talked to people like hospital chaplains, for example, you know, the kind of people who will have drug addicts, people like that, who are kind of regularly coming in and out of hospital, and finding the chaplaincy really helpful, but then you know, when they're struggling at sort of two o'clock in the morning, the doors of the church aren't open for them then. And even if they were, they'd be frightened of being judged and not heard and not welcomed. But actually, you can come online, and I'm not saying I'm online at two o'clock in the morning uh every day, but actually there will be stuff there to read. You can post, you can say, This is how I'm feeling, can someone pray? And it just is a a way of opening that sort of Christian community much wider than our traditional church doors often are.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, so wonderful opportunities. And and I mean some dangers as well when you encounter people in a contextless environment in which you uh you know you see it happening on Twitter all the time. You you feel like you're engaging with pure ideology in 140 characters or fire back something at other ideology that's clearly wrong and needs to be corrected in 140 characters and back before it goes. Um are there ways of kind of humanizing ourselves online and and stopping ourselves from just kind of treating people as as kind of pure ciphers for information?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's a really important point, actually. I think I mean I know we've talked about this before, and and you've given some examples of when you've had good Twitter engagement at that sort of level of the argument.
SPEAKER_03It's rare, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's really rare. And I think that's the thing is to always remember actually when we are always dealing with people. It is like any kind of ministry, we're always dealing with people, and as you say, very often contextlessly, that is, you know, without knowing who these people are, what their life story is, you know, what what their issues are, what their vulnerabilities are. And so my approach is always to to be as cautious as possible and as kind as possible. I don't see it as my goal to win arguments online. I'm much more concerned about uh loving people online. So somebody posted in the Lichfield Diocese Facebook group yesterday a thing about what what does evangelism look like online, and it was just tell people you're Christian and then don't be a jerk. I think there's something really important about that. You know, the internet can be a really vicious, horrible place with people who are deliberately trolling, but also with people who are just misreading the tone, forgetting that there are people at the end of the argument, you know, they're not just this isn't just a debating forum, you know, this is real people in real lives. And actually, I think that as if as Christians we can be counter to that and actually show that we are interested in the people that is a really powerful uh witness to the gospel, actually, that said, you know, I love you. I might disagree with you about all kinds of stuff, but that's okay. I'm not going to be the one who's always insisting on having the last word. I'm not going to be the one who's, you know, throwing all the force of every argument I can think of at you. Actually, I'll say, look, you know, I'm I do disagree with you about that, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and I I do think that it's a much more powerful um way of being online. Um yeah, I I think people see that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and with the darkness around us, I mean Stephen Fryer called the comments section of YouTube the scuttling underbelly of the internet, and I and I think there's there's there are a lot of scuttling underbellies around there, uh around online. But I think if we can model that, um it's it does stick out um a mile when we're able to deal with grace with people.
SPEAKER_00Um exactly, and I think although that might mean that at times we're having to really bite our tongue to not say what we think. I do my experience is that that in the longer term that approach provides more opportunities because people will then be willing to engage with you or even initiate conversations with you about matters of faith because they feel they can trust you, not to suddenly turn into the kind of ranting, raving, yeah, you know, scary person that they've seen elsewhere. And yeah, and I think I I definitely am in this for the long haul. Yeah. You know, what I want is to be forming the kind of friendships online that people then feel that they can trust me in the really difficult times, because those are often the times where people are seeking answers and considering what you know where God fits in all of that and wanting to to find faith and to and to pray. But actually, if you've not built up the level of trust before that, why would they come to you to talk about those things? So you know, I've I've had several experiences over the last few years, both before I was doing this job and and during, of people going through bereavement in different ways who have felt that I was a safe person that they could come to and say, Look, this is what's going on, you know, can you pray for me or can you help? You know, one friend whose father died and was suddenly in a position of having to plan his funeral, church funeral, had no idea where to start with that. And so she, you know, she was like, Well, can you help? And you know, and somebody else whose husband died. Um, and we had a lot of long conversations on Twitter and then by email, and it just you know, at those times where she felt she didn't have anybody else to talk to, often I would be the person that she came to talk to, and she's somebody who, after many years of uh being very angry with God about something, actually, in these last few months since her husband died, has come back to faith, and you know, in part that's been down to our friendship, I think. She's also been watching uh the TGI Monday shows that we do, and she's found that really helpful as well, just to be able to see Christians who are different from each other, who disagree about quite a lot of things, who are willing to talk about difficult questions and yet still love each other.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful. Tell me more about the TGI Monday thing. How how how long has that been going for now?
SPEAKER_00That has been you know, I just um was doing something on our YouTube channel yesterday. We've got 50 videos up.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_00Um, it's not been quite going for years. Some of those are sort of extra little bits and pieces. We started in December last year and it sort of came about well, I thought it came about by accident, but turns out one of the others had been planning this for ages. It was Dan, everybody. It was Dan. I know. So Dan, who has a an MBA in social media for business.
SPEAKER_03He's been pulling the strings without you realising.
SPEAKER_00He certainly has. Um, yeah, but it's a great, it's a great idea. So we'd all got together just to talk about vlogging uh individually, and then um by the end of that sort of day, we'd all said, well, actually, wouldn't it be a good idea to try doing something together uh rather than separately? And so that's uh how it came about. We so we filmed one episode, well, we filmed two episodes at a time. I'm sorry, to also let the cat out of the bag of that. Um but we heard it here first on the event of the publish one episode a week on a Monday, it's about 10 minutes long. Uh there's four of us on the panel, and um Simon, who works for the Diocese, who's our audiovisual guy, without whom we could not do this. I mean, he you know, he makes us look half decent. And uh we answer a question that somebody sent in. So it gives people a chance to set the agenda. Um, you know, they send in their questions about what they'd like to hear to talk about. And you know, that's a whole mix of things. We've had some questions that are quite sort of church specific. You know, we did we were talking last time about baptism and confirmation and those kind of things. Um, some which are more general about being a Christian, we've had questions about prayer, questions about forgiveness, and some which are just much more general about life. We had a question about how do you deal with negativity, for example. Well, that's relevant in every area of life. Um and so between the four of us uh and Simon as well, we'll we discuss those issues. We don't often come to a uh clearly settled conclusion because, as I say, we're all quite different and we'll say different things. Um, and I think that's part of the appeal, people who are watching, is that it gives them a chance to think about something from different perspectives and make up their own minds. Um, and a lot of churches I don't think really encourage that sort of um independent thinking. And I think people either rightly or wrongly feel nervous about being seen to question things or think about things, and and it gives them, yeah, I think TGI Monday gives people a space to to do that and know that's okay. Um, and that's really been something that's reached out not just to people who are in churches but way beyond uh people who don't go to church, people who've never been to church, uh, you know, who found that actually a really valuable place to think about bigger questions of life, um, to understand where Christians are coming from on those kind of questions. And as I say, uh, you know, with at least this one friend of mine uh to come back to faith.
SPEAKER_03It's amazing. And it's gotten it's gotten picked up by um Songs of Praise. They came and did a special uh episode with you guys.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and written about in the spectator and things like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Spectator Online and uh various church publications as well. So it's been I think it's really filled a niche that perhaps w was empty before in providing something, yeah, at that sort of level. I know when I started the job, one of the questions that people kept saying to me was, where are the Christian vloggers? And the answer is basically America. Um there are a lot of Christian vloggers in America and not so many uh in the UK. And I don't think we're quite filling that gap. I think there's still room for there to be sort of young teenagers, uh, students, that sort of age, people, Christians just blogging about their lives, vlogging about their lives uh and sharing their faith as a a natural part of that. I'd love to see uh more people doing that. But I think it is TGI Monday is uh a need for some people um in that sort of space, and it's been exciting to see uh how that's grown and developed uh over the years.
SPEAKER_03And thinking about the sort of the the global versus the local thing as well, it's also it's also made you know howl a a household name just in in his parish, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00I mean people are it really has, and I think that's something that I think is very important people don't always think about. We tend to think of the internet as this huge, great global thing, and obviously it is, and you know, and I'm not policing who's watching our stuff and who's in the Facebook group or or whatever. Are you local?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, you're not saying that.
SPEAKER_00No, exactly, it's a local group for local people. Um yeah, no, it's not. But um but it has been exciting to see how the internet actually works really well at a local level. So we filmed TGI Monday in Howells Church in Market Drayton, and when we had the Songs of Praise episode, we had a big event in their sort of local um uh arts centre there, and it was really I mean it was really lovely just to see how excited people in the town were that something in Market Drayton was getting that sort of attention nationally, and they were so proud. And um, and like you say, I mean I think Harold's the sort of person who does know everyone anyway. People like funeral directors, they all watch TGI Monday, and you know, he'll go to the pub and people will say, Oh, saw you on the thing last week, and you know, and so it it it just has really had an impact on the town there as a whole, you know, they're proud of it. Um, but also it it's opened those conversations, you know, Zoe with her hairdresser and mums at the school gate and and all of those kind of things. And actually, you know, that's fabulous that it's opened those sort of local individual personal face-to-face conversations um enabled through something that's happening online.
SPEAKER_03Because that's what's quite different about a YouTube channel from say Christian TV. Um I mean, certainly in the past, Christian TV has been a very high-budget affair which keeps most people out. YouTube almost prefers the handmade look and the author authenticity and all that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right, to an extent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I think we're not where we were five years ago, and stuff that that really is badly filmed just with a kind of handheld phone doesn't tend to get a lot of traction. But but yeah, it's not the same as as studio produced um, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds being spent on it. Um and there's there's huge opportunities therefore for Christians who think, you know, maybe I have a voice, maybe I have something to say. Um, you know, and like I say, I would love to see more Christian vloggers, uh, you know, just kind of week by week putting up, you know, short five, ten-minute films talking about what's going on in their lives um and their faith as part of that.
SPEAKER_03Well, let's let's m transition to that and just think about how individual Christians can take uh advantage of the new media and and an online presence. And then we'll think about churches and what they can do. But what so I a keen Christian who wants to be a witness online, what would you say to them about how they can make the most that make the most of the opportunities that are there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I mean it's a it's amazing what opportunities there are and how easy it is for Christians not to notice them. Um so, for example, uh a church uh not that far from here was holding a sort of family fun day last Christmas, and they put it on their Facebook page, which normally gets, I don't know, 50 or 100 people viewing it. One person in their congregation shared that post with a what's on in Kids Grove group. Suddenly 5,000 people have seen that. And obviously, 5,000 people don't turn up at the family fund day, but you know, more than they were expecting, and many people who you know they didn't really otherwise have contact with. And so I think one of the greatest things that individual Christians can do is realize the power of their own networks.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, the people that you are friends with, the groups that you are in, um you know, the sort of social I mean, social capital is such an awful word, isn't it? But the social capital that you do have um online and it it takes no time at all and no effort at all, and you're really risking very, very little in terms of friendship just to see, oh yeah, there's this thing, I'm gonna share that.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00And to think one step further and think, do you know what? I'm gonna share that with this group.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um and I think you know, all of us actually in churches could be doing that, all of us as Christians could be doing that. You know, you might feel the least competent person to explain the gospel to someone, but you are capable of clicking your Facebook face and saying share. And and so I really think it's you know it's possibly the lowest bar that there is. Um, but if you know somebody's uh keener than that and and wants to do more than that, I think a lot of what I was talking about before, in terms of the the kind of way that you think about those friendships online and being authentic as a Christian in those friendships. So, for example, when something awful is happening uh to a friend of yours, could you say, Would it be alright if I pray for you? Could you say, is there anything I can do to help? Or often more helpfully say things like, you know, can I bring a meal around? Can I do something concrete?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Be the people who are showing that sort of love. Um you might want to say, Would it be alright if we prayed for you in our church? You know, it would depend on the friendship and the context. But those kinds of things that say, actually, being Christian is an important part of who I am, and I want to, and as part of that, I want to share that love with you. Talking about, you know, talking quite openly on social media about things that you're learning at church or um things that God is teaching you, or the the prayers that you've had answers. Again, it's easy because people who don't want to hear about that stuff can just scroll straight past.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00People will see and notice, and maybe some people will engage, and that's an opportunity uh to share more about your faith. So I think um being conscious. of the the manner in which you do things, being conscious of the relationships, but then actually feel free to be quite open about uh yeah about your faith and how that is a part of your life. People expect openness on social media actually.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00They expect you to talk a bit about you know what's going on in your life and how you're feeling about it. That's true. And and so take those opportunities.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Brilliant. And for a church, if you're I just had someone emailing me yesterday and they said what should I do? I've just been put in charge of our Facebook page and I said you need to talk to Ros Clark.
SPEAKER_00So so Yeah there you go. Well what can you do as a church? I mean I think so when I talk to churches I I talk about sort of three different levels of engagement. I think all churches need to have uh information available online. You know that is how people expect to find out about things these days. It doesn't need to be a website it could just be um if you've got profile on a church near you you can get a lot of the information that you need on there. Could be a Facebook page so again you don't have to worry about hosting and you know all of those kind of techie stuff but just get the information there and keep the information up to date. It's no good if you just do it once and then someone comes and thinks oh well you know I wonder when the Christmas services are or you know it's Ash Wednesday tomorrow I wonder if there's a service then you know you've got to keep it up to date. But I think that is a basic minimum people will want to know where you are when things happen um what facilities there are. A good thing that churches often don't think about so this is top tip from uh Roz here. Top tip don't just tell us when your service starts tell us when it ends. People don't know if they've never been to your church before I mean how would they know? Is this half an hour? Is it an hour? Is it an hour and a half? You know they need to know you know when to put their roast dinner on or you know plans they're making for the rest of the day. So you don't have to be rigid but give them a you know give them an idea um how long it is or when it will be likely to end. So that's basic level second level the kind of thing I was just talking about in terms of individuals I think churches could be doing a much better job of mobilising individuals and so just you know even thinking about when you're preaching are we helping people see the application of what we're talking about to their online life you know when you're giving a notice are you suggesting to people we don't share this on Facebook and actually building that sort of expectation into the life of the church that this extends you know I think a lot of churches have done quite a lot of work on helping people see how their Christian life applies in the workplace or in the family or at school but I think we need to add to that online and really as ministers of churches I think there's a real responsibility there to help people see how their Christian faith works online and yeah be encouraging that by example as much as anything. But then the sort of third thing which um I think churches could be doing a lot more of is using social media in ministry and both in terms of evangelism and discipleship and pastoral care. So in terms of discipleship and pastoral care you know thinking about people who are housebound thinking about people who are like I was saying sort of on the fringes in some way or other are there ways that we can be sharing more of the life of the church with those people through social media I don't know any minister who has enough time to do all the pastoral visiting he'd like to do. I just you know there just isn't you know there's always those people you think I it would be really great if someone went to see them every week but in reality it's once a month. Actually you know if those people can be connected via I don't know a WhatsApp group or something like that where they're you know Skyping each other or whatever it just takes some of the burden off the minister to feel that he's got to be the only person doing that and also highlights could you know could be a way of highlighting who really needs it now who you know where are the really crucial issues and you know where are the people who just need a bit of a chat well let's you know there are ways of doing that. So pastoral care uh thinking about decision. And then thinking about evangelism I think I don't know if the the kind of big campaigns have that much impact. I could be wrong but I I think as churches we we often get caught up not just online but in general with the idea of a a sort of a big mission or a big campaign or you know something that is gonna go viral. And I want to say maybe that's not always the best thing to be focusing your time and resources into. And again be thinking about the local so here's a great example of something um that a group of churches did in a town up in Yorkshire um I c I don't think it was this Easter I think it was maybe 18 months ago at Easter um they got people in their churches to take photographs around the town of things that looked like a cross.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00And then they tweeted them with a hashtag crosses of wherever it was wait. And people you know who were not part of church began to follow the hashtag and began to add their own photos. And it you know I mean it was it was a really lovely local thing. You you saw all sorts of wonderful bits of the town and unexpected things and you know some of them were clearly actual crosses from a church or wherever and you know but there might be a window frame or a signpost or all kinds of stuff. I thought it was a lovely lovely thing too. I think you could do something like that and then take it one step further and say we're gonna do this and then I don't know say on Good Friday we're gonna have a meeting that that is you know called the hashtag crosses of wherever show them on a big screen um it'll be a really nice local evening people will enjoy seeing the pictures we'll show we'll give some refreshments and then maybe someone will give a you know five ten minute talk explaining why the cross is so significant as a symbol in the Christian faith. So using something online but again as you say something local rather than trying to aim for the whole world. Yes. Um you know and I I think with you know those sorts of you know get your creative people in your churches and and sort of let them loose you know give them freedom to say you know this will be a really great thing to try or you know let's have this kind of wild idea um and you know try new things that online media allow us to do in different ways visual things and and audio things and video things that can reach out to people in in a different way.
SPEAKER_03And it means tapping into a different kind of evangelist than than we're used to when we think of the evangelist we think of the person who's the alpha male the A type personality with the megaphone and doesn't know we just think of you Glenn.
SPEAKER_00That's right someone obnoxious and dreadful who the alpha male and all of that we do think of it as a person who can you know stand up and and you know give a talk or the person who can you know engage 20 people in the bus stop or you know and those things are are very off putting for a lot of us who just think I could never do that. I mean I could never do that. But actually you're right this gives so much so much opportunity for people who maybe have never thought of themselves as evangelists before at all but actually this could be a way um that they really can be reaching others with the gospel. Brilliant what's coming up for the online pastor well so this time so we're hoping to continue with this online Bible study series that'll be exciting. I'm doing so a new thing which is launching today hopefully if I finish writing it today is a student network. So this is a uh way of enabling people who are going away to study to keep in touch with their home church and what's going on at the diocese and you know but also give them tips and testimony and resources and things about being a student. So that would be something we send out twice a term once near the beginning of term to encourage them about you know thinking about being a student and once near the end of term to give churches a chance to say we're looking forward to seeing you this is what's on next week you know can you hope you can make the Carol service or whatever and sort of welcome back into home churches. So that's uh starting this term I'm still trying to work out the best ways of doing stuff that will reach the sort of younger age range who are more nervous about engaging in community online the sort of thirteens to sixteens who you know have been told all their lives don't be friends with strangers on the internet but actually are online a lot and are using different sort of apps from older people that you know they're sort of Snapchat and Vine and and and all of those kind of things. And so trying to work out I don't think there's a lot of Christian stuff happening in that area and and I would really love there to be um more. So yeah lot lots of things going on. We've got some plans for TGI Monday as well we're hoping to package some of our episodes up into DVDs that home groups could use for example um you know sort of watch the video and then have a study guide to to get a discussion around that issue.
SPEAKER_03That's a brilliant idea. I've I I've always found our home groups go very well when you have that 10 minutes of discussion that other people do and they are kind of the the the starter motor that help the rest of the conversation. Oh good idea.
SPEAKER_00And we're also hoping to have some conversations with the education department in the diocese and see whether we can tie some of them in with um and it's not national curriculum in RE, but you know what I mean and actually make them a schools resource as well because one of the things that that obviously RE in schools need to do is show lots of different viewpoints and you know that's one thing that we do on TGI Monday is you know um so yeah so we're hoping that there'll be all sorts of ways that those can be used for for people.
SPEAKER_03Great great and how can people get in contact with you?
SPEAKER_00Uh so my website is onlinepasta.org and there's a contact form there uh or you can email me directly it's ros.clark at lichfield.anglican dot org and you'll find me all over the internet Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and Snapchat and Vine in most of those places my username is LF OnlinePasta.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic and we'll put all that information in the show notes but um Ros Clark thank you so much for spending some time with us it's been really helpful.
SPEAKER_00Thanks Glenn it's been fun.
SPEAKER_02That's uh Rod Clark talking to you Glenn a week or so ago what struck you about the interview?
SPEAKER_03It's just uh done a lot of thinking about um how we not only preach a message on the internet but how we embody our Christian witness in the way we interact online. So she's done a lot of really good thinking on that and and um and I and I I I love that that stuff about you know online say you're a Christian and don't be a jerk. You know they these like rule rules one and two about you know how to witness well online. Yes be you know in your bio somewhere say that you're a Christian and and then don't be a jerk. And that's probably 90% of your kind of work. And if you manage to do both those things, um you're doing really, really well. So she's really good at being human online and not dehumanizing the other person and making sure that you yourself are a warm, gracious Christ-like person as you interact online and let the witness flow from that center. I think that's a really important word as we uh figure out how to be witnesses online.
SPEAKER_02Okay so what have we got coming up in the next few weeks or coming up on the podcast.
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna speak to Nate Morgan Locke because Christian Explorer has just launched this really exciting results called Life Explorer takes you through the Bible in these seven episodes beautifully shot. Just gorgeous cinematic stuff. You've got green totally um I got it in Hollywood and India and all all around the world. So yeah it's got to be seen to be believed really but um yeah so we'll we'll talk about yeah why make things why why make something so beautiful? Like surely we're just into kind of downloading content on people aren't we why why spend time and money on making something attractive and beautiful like that as we try to communicate the gospel. And then yeah more more about uh life explored and how people can use that as a resource. We're also going to talk about talk talk to James Carey, script writer with the BBC, talk to him about issues regarding comedy in Christianity but also yeah how we can have a public voice in the public square as Christians. Roger Cardwell coming up Josh Williamson coming up plenty more Peter Meade returning guests. Returning guests yeah Josh Williamson and Peter Meade Peter Meader all Roger Cardwell and Roger Cardwell and uh and me. I get rid of me.
SPEAKER_02That's great. Okay well uh just to recap if you want our app go to the website speaklife.org.uk slash app get it or if you want a list of other episodes go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep yeah and why not share it with a friend put it put it on your Facebook or Twitter and say yeah guys listen in. Okay that's enough for this time. See next time. See ya