Across the internet, a groundbreaking new substitute for compassion has been found. Finally! No more decades of hard-won character building, no more need for cultivating love for your neighbor, no more concrete deeds of service and self-giving. Today, instead of demonstrating a great heart, all we need to do is demonstrate thin skin. Thin skin is the new big heart. Want to appear compassionate online? Just get outraged and make sure you're outraged on behalf of a perceived victim. Tweet out to your followers how you are shaking with anger, how you literally cannot see straight. Tweet out gifts of people banging their heads on things. Write about how you can't even make sure not to finish that sentence. That will communicate perfectly your can't evenness. And presto, this is all the evidence you need to prove to the world that you are totally woke. Did I say that right? You're woke, you're woking it to the max. You've got woke factor 5,000. Am I saying this right? Like you are totally on the right side of privilege. Is that what I'm meant to say? I can't keep up. I genuinely can't keep up with all the right things I meant to say. I'm meant to be outraged by The Simpsons because it makes fun of Apu Nahasapima Pedalon. I can't help thinking, though, that The Simpsons makes fun of everyone. Let me remind you that The Simpsons chiefly represents white Americans as the Simpsons. Speaking as an Australian, we were mercilessly parodied in season six. Does anyone remember this?
SPEAKER_09I'll just have a cup of coffee.
SPEAKER_03Bear it is.
SPEAKER_09No, I said coffee.
SPEAKER_03Beer.
SPEAKER_09Coffee.
SPEAKER_03B, E.
SPEAKER_07C, O, B, A, or this. These bloody things are everywhere. They're in the left and a lorry and the phone wizard and all over the Malong Gildachuck.
SPEAKER_04Kamangaroos. What's the reptiles they use? We have them in America. They're called bullfrogs. That's an odd name. I'm gonna call them chuzwazers.
SPEAKER_01Or this.
SPEAKER_05I'm gonna report this to me, Member of Parliament. Hi, ghost! I got something to report to you. That's a bloody outrage, it is. I'm gonna take this all away to the Prime Minister. Mr. Prime Minister! And I mate! What's a good word?
SPEAKER_01Speaking as an evangelical Christian, here's my representative.
SPEAKER_07Neighbor, I heard about your heresy, and we've made it our mission to win you back to the flock. No sale. Homer, Christian life isn't all praying and sacrifice. Hey, dig this.
SPEAKER_01And speaking as a church minister, let's hear from Reverend Lovejoy.
SPEAKER_00Hello, Ned.
SPEAKER_06Reverend, emergency. I still simps and kids. It'll be baptism.
SPEAKER_00Ned. Have you thought about one of the other major religions? They're all pretty much the same.
SPEAKER_01No, but Apu, the most impossibly hardworking, the most impossibly family-minded man who pretty uniquely on the show represents a positive spiritual role model. Apu is cultural appropriation. What is cultural appropriation? Well, just ask Kezia down. When this school kid wore a Chinese dress to the prom, one outrage junkie destroyed her online by tweeting, My culture is not your goddamn prom dress. This deliciously spicy shot of splenetic woke juice really hit the spot with 40,000 retweeters. Now, many, many Chinese people were more than happy for Kezia to wear that dress. But here is the fascinating thing. Most of the Twitch fork mob expressing displeasure about the dress were not Chinese. Think about that. There were a whole bunch of white people expressing anger that properly speaking is appropriate to Chinese people. What do you call that? I call cultural appropriation. They are stealing outrage from another culture and using it to signal their own virtue. How dare they? This is cultural appropriation of the worst sort, because nothing has more market value these days than the virtue of being a victim. And so think about what's going on with the shame storm around this dress. A whole bunch of white people, is there no end to their colonial designs? A whole bunch of white people have sought to appropriate the victim status of others. And they've done it by supposedly shuddering with anger alongside their imagined stereotype of a culture that they expect to be as thin-skinned as they are. Now I think there might be such a thing as cultural appropriation. I can imagine that if I was actually Native American and you wore a feathered headdress to my fancy dress party, I might laugh it off, like when B and Q employees all wore cork hats for Australia Day earlier this year. I might laugh it off, or probably I would say to your f say to your face though, bro, I feel a little ridiculed and demeaned by this. Not cool, let's talk. I don't think online shame storms are called for, nor should anyone feel righteous because they have the right view of feathered headdresses. But I can understand there might be a thing called cultural appropriation. But then, aren't the feminists right when they say the transgender movement might be a form of cultural appropriation? I don't know. That sounds like an argument that's worthy of consideration. If wearing a dress once is cultural appropriation, what do you call demanding to be treated as a woman for life? I don't know. If cultural appropriation is a thing, maybe the feminists have got a point. But no, no, no one on the other side ever has a point. So we trade in outrage and we shake with anger and we tweet our virtue on topics that change every five minutes, and frankly, I just can't keep up. And maybe I can't keep up because that's what everyone's trying to do. Keep up. Keep up with the trends, keep up with the movements, keep up appearances. That's why we're so thin skinned, because we've invested our entire sense of self into causes and movements and identities so ephemeral, they'll probably be branded as bigoted by our children. But while we're swapping big hearts for thin skins, there is a God whose eternal heart beats for you, and who loves you beneath the mask, so why not drop the mask? Instead of trying to look good in the presence of shame, just look bad in the presence of love. And instead of cultivating thin skin, allow him to cultivate a big heart in you, a heart that loves Apu and loves the people that might be offended, that loves Kezy Abbaum, and that might love the people who've gotten outraged too. Or not. You can get outraged if you want. But don't think it's virtue. All you've done is swap a big heart for a thin skin. And that is not much of a trade. My name's Glenn Scrivener. This is Speak Life, and you're watching a live cast. And uh we're not actually live. Sorry about that, but uh I wasn't gonna change the name for it just because we're not live. Um, but uh I hope you are having uh uh an enjoyable time wherever you are. Paul and I, neither of us can be around for today. Uh, but we just thought we would uh play for you um not only that rant about cultural appropriation, um, but also uh uh an in-depth conversation with Peter Old. We promised this conversation um uh last week as we mentioned the case of Alfie Evans, and uh we mentioned Peter Old's wonderful article um uh uh on Premier, and uh we just got into that conversation, and I thought it was a fantastic conversation to be having with uh Peter, and uh I thought he brought real pastoral wisdom and uh and a real theology of the cross to this issue. And um and you might not agree with everything that Peter says um at points as he takes on the uh the the theology of the cross, um he he really does talk about embracing death, embracing the way of the cross as the way of resurrection. Um and maybe you might think, look, there are all sorts of points at which you know Alfie's parents should have fought, and what does it mean for um standing up for the rights of children and for the rights of those who can't speak for themselves, and you know, and I guess our our conversation wasn't really about that. It wasn't really about um how do we make uh points that protect the vulnerable, it was about how all of us can embrace our vulnerability, and and actually I think at the end of the day, that is the bottom line, and that that is the thing we should really take away from the Alfie Evans um tragedy. That should be shaping our prayers for the parents, and that should really be shaping how we think about ourselves and about our own frailty, our own weakness, our own vulnerability. So I really enjoyed um my chat with Peter Old, and I think it will really feed you. Um so without further ado, um let's go to an interview that I taped earlier with Peter Old. Well, last week we mentioned Peter Old and his terrific uh article in uh Premier Christianity um that was uh I guess it was out I I guess like 10 days ago, um, speaking about the Alfie Evans case, and we thought we'd get the man on himself. So Peter Old, live from Kent. Lovely to have you on the live cast.
SPEAKER_02Hello, it's great to be here. Uh, thank you for inviting me on. Um, it was actually the the article came from a series of uh tweets. I was uh I spent spending a lot of my time at the moment working away. I was in Scandinavia. I sort of sat down, having molded and stroked my beard for a bit and spoken to a few people and thought, I'm just gonna say what I think needs saying, and then just back off and just let it sort of settle. And then Premier My Wright for occasionally phoned me up and said, Ooh, that was cool, turn that into an article. So we did.
SPEAKER_01So can anything good come from Twitter? Apparently, every now and again.
SPEAKER_02Apparently so. As long as you don't look at Donald Trump's Twitter account, you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_01Right, yes. Not not very much uh comes from that Twitter. Well, uh quite a lot comes from that Twitter account, but uh anything redeeming is is uh few and far between. But uh so what was what was kind of the burden that you wanted to share both in the tweets and in the article?
SPEAKER_02I think the burden is that it's a just a terribly complicated situation. But too often um as Christians, we can become too combative on these things, we can see things in a very binary way, and so it becomes us versus them. And and sometimes that's that's good, right? There are things which are black and white, right? I've been to uh Easter Day services where the vicar essentially denies the physical resurrection in the sermon, and you know, I'm I'm looking around me going, is there a pile of kindling somewhere I can borrow? You know, so some things are black and white, but other things they're actually really grey, and I just wanted to kind of go actually, guys, um this is this is this is complicated, this is where the rubber hits the road, this is where theology meets real life and has to engage and has to be has to speak something true and powerful that that that that works, and and so I wanted to kind of do that, and I also wanted to do um I I want to kind of go, what is this telling us about Jesus? What how how can we find Jesus in in this? And what are perhaps the hard truths that we need to understand about Jesus and following Jesus that we're being taught through this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and what I appreciate about your article is that you you circled back and you were you were constantly treating it as the pastoral issue that it really is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because child loss is a is a major thing. It has so many people. Um, our second son was stillborn, he was ill in the womb, and we knew that, and we carried him. I said, We my my wife carried him until he died in the womb, and then she had to deliver him. That was incredibly painful. We learned so much from it, dealing with all kinds of, you know, even the kind of basic ethical stuff like well, he's going to die anyway, so why don't we terminate the pregnancy to avoid the weeks of pain? Actually, that's a that's a very fair question uh to ask. But what by by being so sort of open about having a stillbirth, we kind of opened up the uh communication channels to so many people to tell them out they actually lost a child. And and and we've I've I discovered that actually almost one in four sets of parents have some kind of child loss. So so so this is a this is a live issue for a huge number of parents, and it manifests itself in different ways. It's either child loss during pregnancy or shortly afterwards, or or losing children very early on for all kinds of reasons. You know, as a as a priest, I've done funerals for children, and they're always very hard. You know, I've done a funeral for um uh a little toddler of girls for 13 months who went from well to chest infection and death inside 24 hours, and children I've done funerals for children who've been knocked over in the road. You know, this is a real thing, and and we need to understand what what the Bible is saying to us about this. We need to be able to think theologically about it, and as you say, we need to be able to think past all about it. This is this is this is a situation where you can't just have your your your theology and say, Well, this is the the the theology, go with it. You actually have to embed the theology into real human life and and and and live it out, and and and actually some of that comes from living it out, being able to share that with other people. And yeah, I also wanted to bring people to yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, one one of the issues um that you kind of bring up is um you talk about befriending um the terrible tragedy of having to let your son go. Um, and I thought that was a really striking phrase. Um and I just I'd love to hear you talk about how we as Christians um think of death as the final enemy, but also something that when the time is right, we we almost befriend and and and you know hand somebody over to God, hand ourselves over to God when the hour comes, and almost you know love our enemy in that in that sense. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's a really interesting turn of phrase to befriend the news. And it was I was it's actually I was invited to befriend the news of my son's imminent death by uh a very wise older couple in the parish where I was serving, and he was a uh he was a professor of genetics and a non-stipendary priest, and his wife was a was a pastoral lady, and they wrote us a beautiful card, and they said, We are gonna pray for you as you befriend the news of Zachary. And and at first I was like, what the hell does that mean? But actually, I kind of go, Oh, okay, I get this because actually, when you build a friendship, you begin to open yourself up to somebody um and begin to share and begin to make yourself vulnerable, and the other person becomes vulnerable. Um there's actually, actually, there's a brilliant essay on this, and it's Rowan Williams's The Body's Grace, the famous sort of um uh, you know, oh gay sex is good essay. Well, it's not that actually the first three quarters of Rowan Williams's The Body's Grace are some of the most profound theological writings I've ever read on vulnerability and friendship and and and so on. It's just we lose it a bit in the last uh quarter. But but this idea that I make myself vulnerable, and that and that is the heart of friendship. I share something of myself, I I I expose something of myself of myself. So this idea that I have this terrible news, but I can put up a massive wall against it and just I just fight it and and try to stop it, or I can go, okay, this is this is true. This is this is exposing its truth to me, and I have to make myself vulnerable and expose myself, all my frailty, all my vulnerability, all my pain, all my grief and sorrow in response to it and befriend it. And this is what we did with with uh with with uh Zachary's illness and death. And uh and I found that in that in doing that, uh I I freed myself. I became just so much open. And and I really I really didn't fight the news that that my son was going to die. I I simply let it happen and in all its terribleness. And I think this is what this is what the cross invites us to do. I mean, the cross is literally Jesus just just hung there visible for all to see, and he invites us to come and and somehow participate in that pain of suffering. I I love when the the apostle Paul says, you know, I want to know Christ, the power of his resurrection, and to share in his sufferings. And and you know, sometimes at church is like, I want to know Christ, yeah, yes, yes, the power of his sufferings, yeah, and to share the power of his resurrection, and to share in his sufferings. Whoa, it's like that.
SPEAKER_08Not so much Jesus, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Becoming like him unto death, and therefore somehow to attain the resurrection. And this is the heart, I think, of Christian discipleship is is that Jesus causes, he says to us, come and die, come and die, come and die, come and die, and too much bad theology and bad pastoral practice runs away from the cross and runs away from death. But this is the glorious truth that we have a God who's a God of resurrection, and he creates a new life, and the new life that Jesus had was profoundly ontologically different to them to the life he had before the resurrection. He was he became the hyper-dimensional being that he is in truth. He walked through walked through walls, you know, traveled 50 miles in a second. He he became a transformed being because he was God. He became God in his in his in his in his fullness. And we, as we receive Christ as our saviors, we are regenerated, we are transformed. You know, I I find in myself in the last 20 odd years of joy that keeps bubbling up, and so much my colleagues are waving joy inside me because I've been saved, because my sin has been washed away, because my wounds have been healed, because this is what it is, and so here's the thing though you don't get resurrection before you get death. And the heart of this discipleship in the real painful stuff is not to deny it, not to fight it, but to go, okay, suffering is coming my way. Help me walk through this, help me help me walk through the valley of the shadow of death. And sometimes that's robust and stuff, you know, keeping me in the in the direction. But but but help me walk through it that I may see the resurrection at the other end. I I think the the people who show real maturity, and you can tell from from from talking to them, real spiritual maturity is that they have walked through the valley of the shadow of death. They have they they have that they have they have lived the long dark night of the soul, and they have seen the dawn, they have seen the resurrection at the other end, and it wasn't probably what they were expect what they expected, but God created something new. I I love um Sheridan Voise's book, you know, Resurrection Year. Because it's because it's about you know, for him and his wife, about dying to their expectations for God to raise something else up. And so that's that that's I guess what was what I at the heart that I wanted to kind of kind of get to, which was you know, actually, there needs to be some engagement with the reality that this will hurt, that Alfie will die. And not fight it to not run away from it, but actually go, This is gonna happen, Lord, show your face in the midst of it.
SPEAKER_01And that's that is brilliant wisdom, and I think I think wonderful wisdom, especially for now, and especially for the second half of April. What what about in February? What about in January? What about when you know they they still don't quite know what went wrong with Alfie? And uh and still, you know, in February, they you know, the parents have every right to fight for the life of their child, don't they? I mean, I I take it that yeah, halfway through April, you know, Alfie was gone, you know, you know. But surely his parents ought to have fought earlier on, and sure, surely that was the right option at one stage.
SPEAKER_02Well, now we're sort of creeping into areas of law, we're creeping into areas of sociology, you know, so issues around um, you know, Alfie's parents were not the most sophisticated, well-educated couple, right? And we're now going, and that's not a that's not a criticism, that's just an observation. So we're now creeping into areas of law and and and stuff, but but even that, you know, even even thinking about what the court ruled initially is an exercise in in ethical thinking as as well. You know, we have the change. Children's Act in England and Wales, for better or worse. And the Children's Act is designed to protect children. So fundamentally, the same piece of legislation that is used by the state to take children away from parents who are physically harming or sexually or emotionally harming, the same piece of legislation was used to address the question as to whether Alfie could be moved anywhere, whether you know whether that would cause harm. And the court came to the view, rightly or wrongly, the court came to the view that actually um the Alfie was a terminal. We were into in they they were in the palliative stage, he was dying, it was just a question of how he died. But moving him to an Italian or a Bavarian hospital wouldn't change that, but might cause him distress. And that therefore um that was uh to to move him just just just just wasn't in the best interest of him. Now I think I agree with the court there. I I I think where it comes becomes more complicated is to take a step back and go, okay, so so Alfie's brain essentially is gone, but does that give us the right to withdraw nutrition from him and to and to essentially uh speed on his death? Right? You know, we we have we have um uh concepts like the double effect. We have we see that a lot with cancer patients, that that you give them morphine to help with the pain as that as the cancer takes over their body, and at some point the morphine becomes is the the the the amount of morphine that you need is is so much that that it begins to shut the body down and and overwhelms the the body. So essentially you you kind of die of the morphine, but you're not trying to kill the person with the morphine. Uh that's not euphanasia, it's double effect. I I I I think there are real ethical issues that now with a bit of time we can come and perhaps begin to talk about and go actually, okay. So we might agree as Christians that that moving our feet wasn't the best thing to do. So we agree with the court, but but fundamentally in an ethical society, do we stop feeding someone just to let them die? Do we stop hydrating them just to let them die? Um, and and I know there's this whole kind of um uh that that's a big kind of ethical question, you know. Um we have palliative pathways like the Liverpool care pathway and stuff like that, which have actually come under great scrutiny in recent years as to whether actually we've got palliative care right. And I I I wonder whether fundamentally in British society, what the issue is is that we still don't do deaf very well, and we still run away from thinking about it in a very spiritual way as well as well as a very utilitarian way. And and and and so and so at some point, the kind of utilitarian, well, well, he's dead, he's he's all but dead, so let him die. And and frankly, this is costing us x thousand pounds today to keep on going, right, in a limited budget, and that's a fair question to ask, right? That runs up against the kind of well, hang on, hang on a minute. This is a child made in the image of God who has as much right to live as any one of us do, and those two things come come up against each each other, and what I think was unfortunate in this case was that essentially people kept their fists closed. Whereas actually, I think what what what we should have been looking for, and perhaps we can perhaps it can only be done in retrospect, was to actually see how can we bring those two things together and find some some kind of fusion of those of the tension of those kind of questions. And I and and I'm not a pacifist in any way, right? I've I've actually preached sermons on you know, actually, peace isn't the absence of bombs falling, peace is the absence of reasons for bombs to fall. But I the a bit of me goes was was kind of going, actually, guys, perhaps we we just needed to kind of stand down from our battle lines. Um but I wonder again, there's so much of that emotional stuff tied in. I mean, when when our son was in the womb and and clearly going to die, he had something called Edwards syndrome, which is trisomy 818, which is like sort of Downs is Trisomy 21. There's a third set on the 21st chromosome, trisomy 18, Edwards, the third set on the 18th. He was going to die, and if he didn't make it full term, uh 95% chance that he would he would die as he was being delivered, and if he didn't die while he was being delivered, a 95% chance he'd die in the first half hour. He was going to die, and we got offered a termination. I was basically, guys, you know, we can we can sort of termination out, and I can see how that's that's tempting, but I was furious. I was like, no, actually, we're not gonna do this, we don't have the right to take away the life of our son. And I actually went as far as to say to the lead nurse that we we had a midwife attached to us, said nobody's ever again going to offer us a termination because I know that you're that legally you you shouldn't do so, and I'll I'll haul you up in front of your relevant counsel. And now I look at the anger and the fury at which I protected the life of my son, even for those six or so weeks that he lived, and I can see how Alfie's parents were furiously fighting for the life of their son.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and isn't that a that's a legitimate difference, though, between um okay, if the Children's Act allows the state to take a child off the hands of parents who are trying to harm the child, that is such a different case. I mean, we're we're talking about the parents of baby P versus the parents of Alfie Evans, where their intention is to do good, to fight for life. Um we need different legislation.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, and and so it's two different goods fighting against each other, and that's the you know, that's that's that's the really uh it it it it then becomes a discussion as to what the best is. And the state has one view of what the best is, and and and to be fair, the state is trying to do its best for the child, right? You know, the state constantly tries to do its best for people near death. Um uh I dealt with quite a few unexpected deaths, right? Uh as a as a priest, and I've I've un I've warned families, you know, there's most likely going to be some kind of post-mortem because because the state, even in your loved one's death, goes, hang on a minute, let's just understand why they died. So they're looking out for your for your loved one, even when they're dead. And so the state has the best intentions, but obviously it's coming from a slightly different framework than a Christian theology is. Quite a different framework. And what this case, as you as you're saying, what the sorry it's quite a different framework.
SPEAKER_01Quite a different framework, though, isn't it, the state's dealing with so especially if what's being prioritized is that the elimination of suffering is kind of the prime value that we're going for. It seems to me that as a Christian, I'm very nervous of that because if the elimination of suffering is the goal, then the elimination of the sufferer will be the result.
SPEAKER_02It's a very utilitarian perspective, right? What is the greatest good for the greatest many? I I as you say it's about eliminating suffering.
SPEAKER_01And the good defined by pleasure versus pain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it well, it's about eliminating suffering. And if we go back to the cross, because it's all about because every time we come back to Jesus, we get the best theology. If you tried it, if you tried to eliminate Jesus' suffering, none of us would have been saved. And for the Christian, Christian, I mean that there is the alternative where where the where the Christian almost almost uh throws himself into suffering and wants to suffer, right? And that's bad theology. But but there is this this medium course where the where the Christian goes, suffering is real and it will happen, and I need to somehow find Christ in it. And you are you are absolute absolutely right. The state is looking to safeguard the citizens, but it's also coming to it from a very utilitarian perspective, and that is actually contradictory to the idea of suffering being in some senses a noble and good thing, and that we actually find that across a bunch of eastern religions as well, because because because that's a basic wisdom thing.
SPEAKER_01Life is suffering, it's the first of the four noble truths, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02You know, absolutely, and so uh and obviously Christians have the most accurate of all the religious understandings of what suffering's about, yes, before we get to the stuff. But yeah, this is because because actually suffering is and and you are you are absolutely absolutely right. And if if you look at um books like Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, Brave New World is posited on a society that eliminates suffering and pain. Right. And in order to do that, it it aniphotizes its citizens to all intents and purposes, right? And and and that's interesting because actually, what do we do when we commit euphanasia in places like Netherlands and Belgium and so on? We we basically we aniphotize people. We just we just we just make them sleep and just stop them uh feeling.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_01And actually, I want to feel, and and Jesus felt Yeah, because that that actually is the Buddhist solution, isn't it? To eliminate that suffering and actually to detach rather than attach. Um I think we're very much heading eastwards in our theology.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Whereas Christian theology is is at is attached, even even this the sort of visceral language of clinging to the cross, that old rugged cross, right? Is it is uh is if I I only know that it's it's it's it's it's old and rugged because I've felt it and I've seen it and I've I I've embraced it, right? And and that is the heart, I think, again, that's the the heart of discipleship is to cling to the cross, it's to not it's is it's to not run away from suffering, isn't it's not to create suffering for for its own sake, but but but but but but when suffering happens to embrace it, and I think this is I I wonder whether I just wonder whether now I'm running into dangerous territory, but I just wonder whether Alfie Evans' parents were caught up in this political hijacking of their cause and were swept along in it, and in doing so they actually had nobody sat with them, just sitting in the dust with them.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right. Like Job's comforters for the first week.
SPEAKER_10Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um before they started shooting their mouth off. Yeah. Um I I've got I've got such sympathy for them in and and I know you do too, but in in that um two two people in their early twenties, and and thankfully they dodged a bullet. They didn't go to Oxbridge. They um they didn't speak I didn't I went, and you you you went to Wincoldon. I was at Balliol College, I'll have you know. Um but they they were not speaking that language and they didn't have access to those levers of power. Um, and suddenly in a massive bureaucracy that is kind of the the gears are crunching and the conveyor belt is heading towards this thing that they don't want to happen, and they're trying to say, no, please no, no, please no, no, please no. And then you know, solicitors are brought in, and then the you know the judiciary, and then all of a sudden, and it's just a language they don't speak, but they they're in the the early 20s. The the language they do speak is social media, the language they do speak is a grassroots popular movement, Alfie's army. And I don't know, I I I do get worried when people kind of sneer at Alfie's army and say, how how dare they kind of weaponize things and and speak in army kind of terms? But I just put myself in their shoes and I just think they don't speak the language of bureaucracy and solicitors, they speak the language of popular movement. Um and when they've got when all the apparatus of the state is on the other side, and there are the police um who literally have the monopoly of violence in this situation, the fact that they're called Alfie's army on the other side of things, that you know, that's they're not the only ones who you know are are embodying some kind of violent approach to this whole thing. The state very very quietly quietly and silently is moving them towards this thing that they don't want to happen, and then they're powerless against it. And so I I don't know, you know, the I understand that the you know saying things like you know that the the hospital is trying to kill our son and that and that sort of stuff is unfortunate and shouldn't have been said and all those sorts of things. But what you've got is uh an example of kind of is it is it right to say you know, working class power versus a kind of a bureaucracy that grinds along in a different way?
SPEAKER_02So many interesting questions there. Interestingly, um when Tom Evans once just went into court by himself, yeah. Amazingly well, and the judge commends him for understanding a lot of the medical issues, for grappling with the legal issues. It seems almost the the the the when he got campaigning solicitors and embarrassers on his side, and it all goes horribly wrong. Um I thought the Alfie's army thing was tremendous. I mean, uh where else have you seen um thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people coming together to support a pro-life cause, right? And and also, if you went through some of those uh tweets, if you put these sort of Alfie's army, Alfie Evans hashtags in and like I had on my tweet there, so much prayer. I mean, my cat my my my my Roman Catholic friends who are of course are big on the pro-life thing, so much prayer from so many people in so many different places. I mean that that's phenomenal. I've seen um I I and I and again I think this is this is something about God as a resurrection God taking suffering and death and transforming it again. In my pastoral experience as a parish priest, I have seen families come together because of a child's death. I've seen I've seen battle lines laid down between the interfamily because of a child's death. And and God is this God is this God of resurrection who takes suffering, he doesn't eliminate suffering because to do that, none of us will get out of bed in in the morning. We all caught in this web of pain and sin and and so on. Well, he doesn't eliminate suffering, he demonstrates he's more powerful than it. He demonstrates that he can create good from evil, he demonstrates that that Satan does not win. But I think I I think you're right. There's a very it there's interesting sociological dimensions to this, you know. Uh Alfie Evans' parents come from a uh a working class background, right? And actually, our church the church in this country is pretty middle class. I had a friend um uh sharing only uh this morning about the fact that that she's at a church where they're having a barbecue of not sorry, a picnic after a confirmation service and it's £10 a head. And she's like going, I can't afford it. 60 quid for a picnic. Yeah, exactly. How is anybody gonna I need to bring a share picnic? What the hell is that about? Like how is anybody gonna do that? And and we just sometimes we just don't think how middle class our um our our church is, you know, but but you go to some places like like Liverpool, uh up in sort of Tyneside Durham, where you see some of the of the churches really grappling hard with engaging with, for one of a better expression, the working classes, and and and and and and actually this is this is like a cultural thing. As you say, this is a cultural thing, and I and you know what? Uh when you don't have a lot of money relationships become real, so you fight for you fight for your children and so on. If you can't afford to pay for lawyers, wouldn't even know about how to go about getting a lawyer.
SPEAKER_01You fight for your children, yeah, and you fight in a yeah in a different way. But but once again, what would a theology of the cross look like when applied to that? You know, the wielding, so that you know, the wielding of power on both sides needs needs to kind of be filtered through the cross again. And yeah, what does it what does it look like to have the cheek-turning love that that Jesus promised, which is which is not in a sense, you know, which is not a kind of a non-violence, it it is a passive resistance, it is a a risk a resisting passivity.
SPEAKER_02It is, you know, it is to to move forwards in one way, but with with cheek-turning love rather than with there's a what there's a there's a wonderful book by a guy called William Vanston, and uh it's called The Stature of Waiting, written in the late 70s, early 80s. Um, and I discovered it by accident. I was given another one of his books to read by my DDOV, the guy in the Church of England Diocese who was leading me through the ordination process. I've given another one of the books.
SPEAKER_01He fell asleep on the watch with you, honestly.
SPEAKER_02I was I was uh I was uh I'm gonna move over that. I was he was giving me another one of his books called Loves Endeavour, Loves Expense. I found it boring, it's all about sort of uh parish ministry and giving him blah blah blah. But I thought, oh, let's just have a go with another one of his books. And it's a book called The Stature of Waiting. And what Vanston does is he looks at Jesus in Holy Week, and he looks at actually how Jesus is is is active, he's active on Palm Sunday, he is active when he goes into a temple and cleanses it, he's active when he curses the uh the uh fig tree. He is he is he is active as he prepares for the Last Supper, he's incredibly active as he as he brings out somatically in the Passover, transforming it into signs of of his body and his blood. He is active as he takes his disciples down to the Garden of Gethsemane, and he is active as he struggles in the garden with you know with praying to God, you know, if you can take this cup away from me, let it be so yet not my will but yours be done. And then suddenly he switches into passivity, and the last sort of 24 hours or so is Jesus passive, and in his passivity, he is the most powerful because he achieves his victory in the passivity. And and I was reflecting on this again uh uh a lent or two ago. I kind of picked the the the book of every three or three or four lens just to read again. I was reflecting on this a lent or two ago, and I suddenly something struck me the moment where it changes is the kiss, it's Judas's kiss, and it's actually a sign of affection. At the heart of Jesus' ministry is this deep burning affection for humanity, and this desire that humanity would be affective towards him and towards each other. I think Judas, even in that moment of betrayal, is showing his love. And as Christians, we need to understand when are the times to be active and to fight, and when are the times to be passive and to turn the other cheek, to just let the suffering and the pain and the derision happen. And if I was to reflect, I think there was there was too much fighting, there was too much action, and and and and we and somehow the whole community around Alfie Evans missed the moment where it should have gone where they sh where they where they should have copied Jesus and gone, and now we stop being active, now we just look to the cross and we wait for that to happen and we engage in the mystery. And and that's gonna sound like a criticism. 2020 hindsight is always is is always great, but I remember talking even before the last few rounds, I remember talking to people and going, yes, they should do this and do that, and then just suddenly having that that moment of reflection and going, actually, you know what? Perhaps, perhaps, actually, it's time to just put the swords down and just and just walk to the cross.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_02Heavens, I'm passionate, right? It's great to be passionate, it's great to to to want to change things and be and be and be and be agents of moral good. At the same time, there is a time to just let let it happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, death is an enemy and it's Stage you have to love your enemy. Um I love what you wrote in your article. We perhaps we'll finish with this. You say God is a god of resurrection, and he displays his power most visibly in transforming death into life. The new life is his choice, and we don't get to dictate its form. It is the hardest path to take to walk into the valley of death, but in it we fear no evil, because he is there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you know what, Glenn? That's theology until you do it.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And it it's it's it is the hardest thing, and I speak from experience from a number of different things, from my personal life, from the the life of Rob, my son, and letting go of him and engaging in that pain. You don't get it until you actually step out on faith. And Jesus says, Trust me. Jesus says, Trust me. You know, there's there's a wonderful John Autberg book. You know, if you want to walk on water, you have to get out of the boat. You know, and Jesus says, trust me, trust me, step out. It looks, it looks awful. I've known points in my life where I I I have not, I could not conceive as to what the resurrection would be. And yet I I have known in the back of me through all my fighting that Jesus has said, step into the valley of the shadow of death. Step into it because I am there. You have seen me enough in your life already to know that I am there. I'm not guaranteeing you an easy ride. It will not be painless, but I will be there. And I can tell you, I can tell everybody watching, listening, the the uh you you grow in your relationship with Jesus so much by becoming one with him on the cross. Right. And we do that by at the at the right times stepping out into the suffering, and just and and actually my prayer, my prayer in in the five to six weeks when we when Zachary was was diagnosed before he died. My prayer was God, I do not understand this, I do not know why you have let this happen to us. I can't even perceive getting through this, but somehow be glorified in this and just give me the strength to do every day the things I have to do. And that's all God wants. That's all Jesus wants, is He wants the heart to go. I don't get it, I I can't see it. Help me, right? Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. I want to know Christ.
SPEAKER_02That's a great prayer. That's a super prayer. That's the prayer of the child that goes, Daddy, help me.
SPEAKER_01Right. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection, the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so somehow to attain to the resurrection of the dead. That's a good verse for us all to think on. Philippians 3.10. But uh Peter Old, that's tremendous wisdom for us all. It's been lived by you, and uh I pray that it would help us to live it in our own circumstances, this theology of the cross, because it really is the way of resurrection. Uh so thanks for sharing with us. And if people want to get in touch and read some more of your stuff, peterold.net, is that is that a good place?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean find me on Twitter, Peterold, O-U-L-D, at Peter Old, uh and start from there.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Brilliant. Yeah, start the rabbit hole there and you'll never get out.
SPEAKER_10It just goes on and on and on.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. Thank you so much, Peter. We'll see you again.
SPEAKER_10God bless, Glenn.
SPEAKER_01So that was the interview with Peter Old. Um, if you want to get in touch with Peter or follow more of his stuff, it's Peter Old on Twitter at Peter Old at O-U-L-D, is how you spell that. And uh yeah, I just I just thought he brought such wisdom and such clarity um on the theology of the cross, which is really what we need to embrace more than anything else and keep Jesus central in our thinking on all these issues. Well, thank you so much for uh joining us with the live cast. Sorry it wasn't live this week, um, but uh in the future, uh actually next week I'll be um uh coming back from Northern Ireland. Uh this week I'm in Northern Ireland doing uh uh a mission for a whole bunch of churches in Banga. Um and uh you can be praying for that, please. Uh, we'd love to see lots of people coming and trusting in Jesus. That would be wonderful. And then uh we'll be back next week with more uh content on suffering and a Christian response to that and uh and more content on this live cast and probably even another rant. You never know. My uh my interest might be piqued by some topic. Um you can mess uh in with uh suggested topics for rants if you like. That would that could be fun. And uh do subscribe to us, uh, do like our page on Facebook, do subscribe on YouTube, and uh you can get this as a podcast. It comes out every Friday. So look for us wherever you get your podcasts. It's the Speak Life Podcast. And uh that's about it from me this week. But uh thanks for watching and see you soon. Bye.