Today on the Evangelist Podcast, Brexit and the Blame Game.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_02You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we discuss all things regarding telling the good news of Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley, and here is Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01Here he is. Hello. Hey. How are you? I'm alright. I'm alright. Yes. I've just been uh to a lunchtime concert here in Eastbourne, and uh my church all souls. We have these concerts through the summer, and somebody comes and sings some, you know, Gilbert and Sullivan and light operetta and that sort of thing, and then I get given the God Slot. Which is not a great name, is it? God slot. Let's let's fit the omnipotent gods into three minutes. In the interval. Um but it's a little opportunity to have a have a go, so I suppose it's uh it introduces people to to other people in the church. Yeah, and and loads of loads of non-Christians come in, so uh we reckon over the course of of the summer about a thousand people come through the building. Um and we have seen people come through to church and come through to faith, actually, through this over the years. So yeah, it's worth doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So what were you speaking on then?
SPEAKER_01I was speaking about uh we might hear a little bit about it in a in a in a future episode, but I I was speaking really about power. Um there's lots in the news about power at the moment. Labour Party struggles for leadership, Tory Party uh leadership contest, um also the Chilcott inquiry coming out and holding the powers that be to account. Um so how do we feel about power and how do we feel about uh yeah, does absolute power corrupt absolutely? That was sort of the the the hook that brought them in. And if you want to know what I said, tune in to the next episode. Good. So what are we gonna talk about this time then? We're gonna talk about Brexit, because everyone's talking about Brexit. And we're gonna we're gonna talk, I hope, about the blame games. You know, I I think lots of lots of countries have had or are considering having referendums, and it uh it uncovers polarities in cultures and societies that people didn't know were there before, but it also really uncovers that we're not very good at disagreeing. And I'd like to talk about why it is we're not very good at disagreeing, why it is we demonize the other side, um, and what it is we can do about it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, hold that and uh we'll expand a little bit more in a moment. Um I want to say thanks to uh to my brother Matt. He's left a review on uh the podcast. Matt uh actually does the introduction to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01He loves the voiceover. Yes. What an excellent pitch perfect.
SPEAKER_02He says, How useful is this podcast?
SPEAKER_01I don't know how useful is it, Matt.
SPEAKER_02It's a growing library of practical resources for Christians where the weekly subject choice always provides an up-to-date insight into effective sh strategies for evangelism. Wow. He says it's one way it's helped me is by feeling empowered on one-to-one witness witnessing as I've talked with people from today's popular secular mindset or other world religions. Remembering a few tips, tricks, and how-tos for the episodes in my conversations with people is really useful in applying cross-centred response and might give me confidence in where I try to guide those conversations. As a first student at missions-based Bible college for mission, it's a good place to come and steal ideas. Aye, good stealing.
SPEAKER_01That's very professionally written, is it?
SPEAKER_02Is he like a journalist or something? Or no? But he he is into media. Yes. But Matt Matt, he um he's been producing these little cards that sort of say, Have you got a question for God? Right, yes. And wh with a phone number on the back, and he's sort of gotten one of these disposable mobiles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh so he drops the card round in different coffee shops and whatever, and uh he's had a few sort of anonymous conversations with people that just want to ask. Usually text message or text message.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_02Ask God a question.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that interesting? Has he heard of people doing that before, or is this his his idea? I don't know. Has he stolen who's he stolen it from? Hasn't been from us.
SPEAKER_02No, I think it's it's his uh own idea.
SPEAKER_01What an interesting idea. And probably probably younger people doing the whole textbook. Possibly, yeah, possibly. I guess you don't know.
SPEAKER_02You don't know, really.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02What a good idea. That's good. Yeah. And we also have another uh review from someone called Patrick B. C. Might be from British Columbia, I don't know, Patrick from B C.
SPEAKER_01He he's right writing from before Christ.
SPEAKER_02Maybe, yes. He says, I excellent podcast. I listen to the podcast every week, and I always have fresh insights into how we can do evangelism from listening. Glenn has a way of speaking the gospel with great love and care for his audience, yet without compromising, which I feel uh which I find a great example. Keep it up. Oh, well thank you.
SPEAKER_01Patrick.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Patrick. Yeah, if you would like to leave us uh a rating and review, we'd be very grateful if you'd do that for us. Um there's a small gift for you if you go to speaklife.org.uk slash I love tep. Uh if you go to that, there'll be a little present from us. Little present, that sounds ominous. For leaving us a rating and review. It's a good present, right? Yes. It's all right. Okay. Do it. Do it. Good. Okay, well, Brexit then. What what on earth's going on?
SPEAKER_01What's going on? Um the other day I uploaded a little video of myself. Oh yes. Yeah. Which um I won't be doing again. Um not in that same format. My mother instantly texts me in cap in caps locks, just like with about 50 exclamation marks saying, Keep your hands on the wheels, keep your hands on the wheel.
SPEAKER_02Because this is your you you mounted it, didn't you, in the in the satnav folder, and uh it was just filming you, so you set it going. Yeah. And then set off for driving.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I wasn't monkeying with a screen or anything.
SPEAKER_02But but you did one or two times. Take both hands off the wheel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I sort of was channeling this sort of Italian spirit of and lots of gesticulation, which um if I ever do something like that again, I must rein in. Um but if I yeah, if I do something like that again, I think I'll park and be stationary. Um nevertheless, I mean it's it's interesting, it's it's been viewed a thousand times since I uploaded it the other day, and it's struck a nerve, I guess, because what I've wanted to talk about is it goes deeper than the presenting issue. The presenting issue is Brexit gives cover for racists to be racist. And therefore the accusation is anyone who's voted leave is culpable for these acts of far-right extremism that that that flare up. Now it's interesting, it's always the far-right extremism that people point to. It's the it's the it is the poor drunk racist on the bus we point to, rather than Jeremy Corbyn, who, you know, associates, you know, the nation state of Israel with ISIS. You know, that's that's kind of white-collar um racism. You know. We we wish he didn't say it, but that's that's different from the drunk on the bus, who we're really worried about, which is interesting. But so that's the flash point. That's what people have been talking about. And I've been I've been on Twitter and Facebook in which the other day there was a video that came out of a drunk on a bus in Manchester telling a foreigner to go home. And the first time I saw it on my feed, uh it was just an example of racism, and and I saw it and thought, isn't that ugly? That's horrible, it's disgusting. But then the next time it came in my feed, it was somebody who had voted Romaine who says, anyone who's voted for leave, this blood is on your hands. This is your fault, you've got to own this. And then the next time in my feed, it's like, well, that's typical Remainers blaming the leavers. Um, they're so sanctimonious, etc. And so it just really occurred to me that what what you know in the space of a few minutes on social media, there were leavers complaining about Remainers who were complaining about leavers for the racists who are complaining about the immigrants. Yeah. And you've got this triple demonization going on. Remain hates leave, leave hates remain, racists hate foreigners. Yeah. And I just wanted to really kind of wrestle with what's going on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean it's it's been sort of a for the nation, it's been a surprise, whichever way you look at it, you know. Yeah. Um it's it's been a shock and it's it's cut right across um, you know, I know several people who, you know, husband and wife voted differently, and yeah, you know, me and Emma, we voted differently.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh, you know, it's separated us in all sorts of different ways we didn't expect.
SPEAKER_01No, exactly, and certainly I mean, certainly David Cameron was banking on somehow there being enough of a unity in the Tory Party around Romaine that he could keep his job. That was wrong. Labour Party was hoping that its, you know, its supporters would s come out for Romaine the way that it did. Forty percent of Labour voters voted leave and and so now they're in turmo turmoil. Um, you know, Nigel Farage has finally got what he's always wanted, and now he's you know, um left as leader of UKIP anyway. Um all and I mean all the markets, all everyone was predicting up until about two AM on June the twenty-fourth. People were still saying, well, it's I mean, even even on the night of June twenty-third, Nigel Farage was basically conceding defeat to Romain and then wrong. Um everybody tears up the script, which has been happening a lot recently, you know, the election last year, like tore up the script, and again it's happened. So people people just don't understand the electorate anymore. And politicians in particular seem to be out of touch with the electorate, and now they've got to wrestle with that and it's gonna lead to all sorts of upheaval.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Where do you think sort of this innate desire to blame the other side comes from?
SPEAKER_01I blame Adam. Yeah, okay. Um which is interesting, I use the language I blame. Um You know what happens in the Garden of Eden? Instantly the Lord shows up, and Adam blames Eve, and Eve blames the snake, and the snake doesn't have a leg to stand on, you know. Boom boom. I always tell that joke, but but I I I think people laugh at it because we recognize that's that's what we're all like. That's totally what we're all like. Um it's interesting talking about my driving. Um this week in um in the Bible reading plan that I use, I use the Bible in one year thing, which HTB have come out with. And just it just so happened that this year, uh that that this week, um, 2 Kings 9 verse 20 was there, which is Jeehu driving his chariot. Furiously. Furiously. Yeah, in the King James it's furiously. In the NIV, I noticed this week it's like a maniac. Jeehu is driving like a maniac. Um so that reminded me of my mother saying, keep your hands on your wheel. But it also reminded me of of like when you're in the car, isn't this the most obvious example of self-justification and blame game? Like when you're in when you're on the motorway and someone like overtakes you at 90, you're like, What a maniac. But then if anyone drives slower than you, they're an idiot, right? Like, that guy's an idiot, that guy's a maniac. I'm just right. Yeah, I'm I'm in the golden mean. And uh and this is our problem. Our problem is always, and this is what I said in the in the video. Uh our problem is not so much that there are people out there who are wrong. The problem is that I'm right. You know. And we have to be right, and we always and therefore what the Bible means by the flesh, like really when you get down to it, the Bible's not talking about the skin that's wrapped around your bones. When it talks about the flesh, it's talking about what is natural, what is innate in you that you're always pointing to as justification for who you are. I can justify my existence. I'm okay, I'm all right. You know why? Because I don't know, I voted leave, or because I voted remain, because I'm left wing, because I'm right wing, because I'm white, because I'm black, because I'm this, because I'm that. We're always pointing to something. Because I'm a social justice warrior, because I believe in liberal values, because I believe in conservative values, because I'm an upstanding, honorable, you know, respectable type. We're always looking at ourselves, our flesh, to give ourselves a sense of self-justification, self-righteousness. And if that is the basis on which I say I'm okay, then I just must hate, despise, demonize, and sideline you if you don't live up to my standards. And I th I I think that's what's going on. I think that's that is why the drunk on the bus in Manchester was threatened by the foreigner and said, I'm right because I'm white and I've always lived here, and you're wrong because you're a foreigner, and out you go. But it's also what the Romaine voter was thinking when he looked around at all those nasty Leave voters, and that's what's wrong with this country, all those Leave voters. And that's what's going on in the Leave voter who looked at the Ray Remainer and said, Yeah, this sanctimonious self-righteous project fear, that's what's wrong with this country. We're all doing it all the time, and that's what's tearing us apart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The uh there was the two senior politicians that were caught on Sky TV recorded after the the the moment. Yes. Um ripping apart sort of the other front runners. On the one hand, I was thinking I was just like the old Yes Prime Minister TV programme. Yeah. With all the politics that go on behind. But also I thought they're only recording what all of us do. All of us do behind our TV sets all the time. Day to day, we're exactly the same.
SPEAKER_01We're all exactly the same. We can't do that. But we find that gossip delicious, don't we? Like I was reading through Proverbs the other day, and I was like, you know, gossip is like a delicious morsel. We can't get enough of that. Because we love to point the finger at other people. I was I was um um talking to a friend of mine who's a nurse, and um she was just saying she's got a lodger in her house, and just constantly this lodger is just doing down everyone else who's in the office. Because they're in the in the hospital, they're both in the same ward, and this lodger is just constantly doing down other people. I said, Why do you think she does it? And my friend said, um, because she's actually very lazy and she wants to deflect attention, so she's always moaning about everyone else doesn't do their job, everyone else doesn't do their job, everyone else doesn't do their job, to get a sense of I'm okay. Whereas really she's not doing her job. And it's the whole thing, you know, you point the finger at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you. And we kind of think that if we point loud enough and hard enough and emphatically enough that people will forget that there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves. Self-justification, it's tearing us apart. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So what's the answer then, Glenn?
SPEAKER_01I think the answer is something to do with scapegoating. Um, you know, scapegoating is a phrase that comes from the Bible, but we use it today to describe what happens when you say, you know what's wrong with this country? All the immigrants, or you know what this country uh what's wrong with the country is leave, what's wrong with the country is remain. We basically take a a small section of the s of uh of the culture, usually the smaller the better, and the weaker the better. And we we identify all that's wrong with that weak section, and we despise them, hate them, cast them away, and then we can breathe a sigh of relief. We've gotten rid of the bad guys, we've scapegoated them and away they go. And really, in that negative sense, that's what's going on in all these blame games. We're scapegoating people. But interestingly, in the Bible, the phrase scapegoat comes up in a very different context. In Leviticus 16, the high priest gets up and uh Day of Atonement makes a whole bunch of sacrifices, and then what he does is lay his hands on the head of the scapegoat and confesses all the sins of the community onto the scapegoat, and then on the basis of the sacrifice, they sort of send the scapegoat away, and it's this idea that the scapegoat has taken the sins of the people as far as the East is from the West. Now you could listen to that and you could think, ah, see, the Bible is part of the same problem. The Bible is modelling for us that you take some weak member of society and you identify all our problems with that member and then you send them away. Actually, the Bible is completely subverting that and doing the very opposite. Because within Leviticus sixteen, that scapegoat is meant to be playing the part of the Lord. Like, this is this is God the scapegoat. Yeah. Which is a stunning thought. Bay back in Leviticus sixteen, they cast lots for the for these two goats, and one of them was called the Lord, and one one of them was called the scapegoat. And throughout Leviticus, what you get is um like if you if you're a leper and you want to go free, you have two birds and you cast lots for them, and w and and if the lot falls for for one of the birds, then that bird is uh killed, and then the blood of that bird is sprinkled on the other bird, and that bird is is let go. So it's like through the death of the one, the other goes free. The other goes free. And that's similar to the scapegoat. You've got one's called the Lord, and it's killed, which is wow. Here's a here's a scapegoat called the Lord. What do you what do you do with it? You take a knife to its throat and you slit slit the throat and the blood pours out. Whoa. Imagine being Aaron, like slitting the throat of the Lord. Like and on the basis of that, the scapegoat carries the sins away. So really it's this unified movement of God is going to come and be a sacrifice, and in that sacrifice is going to bear the sins of the people and carry them as far as the East is from the West. Which is stunning because the scapegoat, therefore, is not a weak member of society who's getting blamed. It is the strong, it is the Lord himself who volunteers to take the suffering and the sin onto himself, and therefore volunteers to be the object of all our blame. And so you come forward into the New Testament and you see Jesus and and he spends his whole life being blamed by everybody. You know, he's he's got the wrong parentage, everyone's making fun of him for the wrong parentage, he's got the wrong nationality, he's he's part of the the you know the Jewish nation that's under the thumb of Rome. He's part of the he's the wrong part of of Israel, is up from the north and everyone's making fun of his northern accent and and you know, he's not part of any of the strong parties. He's not he's not a Pharisee, he's not a Sadducee, he's not an Essene, he's not got political power, he hasn't got economic power, he hasn't got he hasn't got anything. And he's he's just this upstart as far as everyone else is concerned. And as he comes, everyone just, you know, blames him. He you know, he raises Lazarus from the dead, and everyone's like, right, well, how do we kill him? Well they wanted to kill him as well, if like Which is just bizarre sh and and why? Because John 11 tells us, because they wanted to cling on to power. And they, you know, they said if the if this uprising continues, then the Jews will take away our land and our place, and and they wanted to cling on, and so they have to hate Jesus, and they do hate Jesus. And then Jesus gets arrested and he's done absolutely nothing wrong, and all these trials that we read about in the Gospels are just Jesus the scapegoat on trial, and everyone is pointing the finger. They are hurling accusations at him. None of them stick, but he doesn't stick up for himself. He wants to be blamed. He takes the blame, he becomes the place where blame goes to die. He becomes the place where all that shaming ends. And on that cross, you know, with with all the mob and all the moralists pointing at him, saying, Crucify him, crucify him, rid the earth of him. He is absorbing all the shame, all the blame of of a world's guilt and sin. And he puts it to death. And he rises up and he says, Look, I've taken away your guilt, I've taken away your shame, as far as the East is from the West. You don't need to earn your righteousness, you don't need to earn a sense of being okay. I've I've spread my arms to you to welcome you. It's cost me my own blood, of course you're welcome. You don't need to look to yourself to get that sense of being okay. Look to me. And as we look to Christ, hopefully, we can see where the blame game leads to. You know, you look at the cross and you just think, Oh, what am I doing? Why am I hurling accusations? Why why am I saying to the Leave guys, crucify them, crucify them? Why am I saying to the remainers, Crucify them, crucify them? Jesus was crucified. The scapegoat has died. Let the blaming end. And now because I've received mercy, let's let's pass on mercy to one another, and suddenly you've got a very different kingdom. A kingdom based on people realizing not that they are right, but that they are wrong. But you're welcome anyway. And so actually, actually the answer is Jesus. Actually, the the gospel actually makes sense. And and it doesn't just make sense of a bunch of religious intuitions from two thousand years ago. It makes sense of British politics in 2016. It's what everyone's talking about, it's what everyone needs, and the answer is found in Jesus. And that is the rant. Yeah. And the reason why I I made the video, the reason why I'm doing this now is is just like Matt was saying, when you're in personal conversation. With other p other people. Like, I honestly don't think it's a massive change of gear to go from talking about the newspaper headlines to talking about Jesus the scapegoat. Like, I I honestly think the Bible is not this weird thing that you need to have a massive crunch of gears to get into. The Bible is what makes sense of everything that's going on. And if you, maybe in personal conversations, have these categories in mind of the flesh, you wouldn't call it the flesh, you'd just call it self-righteousness. Everyone knows about self-righteousness. And you have this category of blaming and the blame game, you have this category of scapegoating. People understand what scapegoating is. And you can then say, Well, did do you know where scapegoating comes from? And away you go.
SPEAKER_02So y y if someone sort of says uh you know, I'll get fed up with hearing about the referendum now. Yeah. Um just sort of say, Well, um we're all trying to blame each other now. Where do you think that comes from?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and and turn it into questions, exactly. Like like, yeah, where do you think this blame culture comes from? I blame the immigrants, you know. And then suddenly Yeah, you're into a spicy conversation. But um yeah, asking turning it around, asking questions, asking, you know, do you know about scapegoating and uh and j and maybe even painting a picture? Like, wouldn't it be amazing if we were so secure that we didn't have to blame other people, that we didn't have to feel that we were right all the time, that we could actually have a grown-up conversation about left wing, right wing, immigration, race, politics, sovereignty, democracy. Wouldn't that be amazing if we could actually have a grown-up conversation? What it would take would be us saying, I might be wrong, I might be wrong. Seems to me like this, but I might be wrong, and I really want to hear the other side. I really, you know. Man, the I mean politics is crying out for that, but I honestly think that it's an issue that goes far beneath the headlines. It goes to our hearts, and Jesus really uh speaks to these issues on a profound level.
SPEAKER_02And you know, regardless of whatever the the outcome, you know, Christianity works in in any political situation. It doesn't have to have a political structure or of one kind or another. You know, Jesus said, you know, to to be in it and to live for him within it rather than try and force a political uh system upon anybody.
SPEAKER_01Well exactly. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's. Like we can and I and I think therefore, and we'll we'll think about this in the next episode, therefore Christians can be people who have confidence in the midst of a lot of uncertainty. Because everyone else is worried, you know, how on earth is the Labour Party gonna survive all of this? How how what's the shape of the Conservative Party gonna be now that UKIP, you know, is has no reason to exist, so to speak. And you know, what's the shape of the political landscape gonna be? And is is Scotland gonna try and join, or Northern Ireland gonna try and join the EU? What's the shape of the political landscape? Everything is uncertain. Everything's not uncertain. Um we know who is on the throne. Um friend of mine on the morning of the referendum results, um, he just tweeted out, News Flash, Jesus is still King. You know. And that at the end of the day, that's the kind of confidence that Christians have, and and I think I think it can be attractive. Um so in the next episode we'll think about where true confidence comes from, not from political leaders, but we'll think about how we think about politics, how we think about power, and how we think about where we should place our confidence.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, that's something to look forward to. So if uh folks want to see your video, where do they go?
SPEAKER_01Uh on the show notes you can have a look at it. Um where would you go? I mean my blog's probably the easiest place to find it because it's the latest post, so christthetruth.net.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And uh to see uh the podcast webpage, go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep. And if you want that special gift I told you about, go to speaklife.org.uk slash I love tep. That's it for this week. Wait with expectation for the next episode.
SPEAKER_01With a worm on your tongue, baited breath. Do you get it? A worm on your tongue. Baited breath. Yeah, yeah, it kind of works, doesn't it? That'll do. See ya. See ya.