Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Michael Otts.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast from Speak Life. I'm Andy Brinkley, media producer, and here's my good friend and boss, award-winning illiterate loving alluring evangelist.
SPEAKER_03Okay, hello. Yes, I'm going all right. Yeah, a little bit under the weather, but nothing nothing I can't string out as a you know as a sympathy winner for the next few weeks. And if you're a woman, you don't you don't know. You don't understand what it's like. This is yeah.
SPEAKER_01Antibiotics is for children and women, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, yeah, my my wife and daughter are on antibiotics, but I've h I've held out till now. I want the drugs. I just don't think the doctor will give them to me. I just don't think I'm sick enough. I pretend like I am.
SPEAKER_01I'll give you a red pen and you can put dots all over your face.
SPEAKER_03I could I could do that. And a bell, and I could say unclean.
SPEAKER_01So uh on this week uh we're going to talk to Michael Ott. Michael Ott. Motzy. Michael Ott.
SPEAKER_03Motzy is uh the UK's kind of uh he really has pioneered the sort of uh uh way that we do student evangelism, um, certainly in the circles that I run in with UCCF and and different CUs wanting to put on events weeks. Um yeah, he really has written the book on on how to do that and how a Christian union can most effectively reach out uh on campus in the UK. And I think, you know, over the past sort of decade, I think uh Christian unions have gone from being, you know, nice places where people um support one another um in the student environment to being mission-minded um outposts in in their university and really being used to uh reach out and see many, many, many people one to Christ. And Michael Lutz has a lot to do with that that kind of shift. And now he is really trying to pioneer that work in Europe, where just typically i in a university uh on the continent, people would just sort of say, ah, well, all that proclamation evangelism, that might work in England. It wouldn't really work in our settings where we're just more we smoke and drink our espresso and just, you know, talk politics and maybe get around to Jesus. And but I th I think I think Michael's been great at just sort of saying, you know what, in England people didn't used to have a lot of proclamation evangelism. Maybe at Oxford and Cambridge they did, maybe at Durham University they they did, but it has been a more recent thing, j just this real belief in proclamation evangelism. And maybe it could work in the continent, and it is working in the continent, and and he is seeing. Um yeah, people won to Christ and Christian unions really grabbing a hold of the power of the gospel when it is unleashed. Um so it's very exciting, the sort of stuff that he's doing. So yeah, I just thought it'd be great to uh catch up with him, talk about uh uh some of his motivation behind what he does and some of the methods, and yeah. Okay, well let's let's hear Michael Otts then.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. So I am with Michael Otts, ex uh Evangelist Extraordinaire. Uh and you are leading uh the evangelism track here at the European Leadership Forum, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Uh well trying to, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And you've got a co-leader, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I found this young guy called Michael Green. Yes. Um Are you discipling him?
SPEAKER_02Is he coming on?
SPEAKER_05Well, yeah, I I've got some hopes for his future, I think. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02He could he could go farther to Michael Green. Actually, Michael Green in 1997, he came and did a university mission that I was at and uh and preached the gospel. So what are we talking about? We're talking about like twenty years ago. Yeah. And did a university mission then.
SPEAKER_05The amazing story with Michael is my dad became Christian at university. Wow. Um, what's that, over 40 years ago? Yeah. Um the first weekend away he went to, uh, the speaker was Michael Green. Yes. And then 40 years later I end up speaking on weekends away with him as well.
SPEAKER_02You weren't even a twinkle in his eye, and now and now you sort of collaborate together on missions. What sort of happens when you go into a university with Michael Green?
SPEAKER_05Um well, it's interesting, we always get interviews uh introduced as the young Michael and the old Michael, but I'm never quite sure which one is young and which one is old, given the amount of energy he has. Incredible. Um so we've really enjoyed working together. We did one in Sheffield, I think, about six years ago, and then every year since then we've done uh two or three missions together. Um we were in Belarus just a few weeks ago. Um, and uh I think it's great because in some ways, being in my 30s, I'm on a similar age to students. Michael obviously is much older, and yet I think it shows the kind of the gospel's effectiveness in every season of life. Here's a guy who's proves the gospel um over many years, uh, and then someone else who's a similar age to themselves. And uh and we just work well together. We enjoy doing it. I often end up doing the kind of lunchtime apologetics, kind of answering objections, talks, and then Michael often uh does the evening events. How many do you think he's done? Yeah, I've never asked him. Um I was thinking it must be a lot. I mean I've I think I'm getting on to nearly a hundred, and that's only in twelve years, so he's been doing it for sixty years.
SPEAKER_02A hundred is is great going. I remember when John Stott gave his last sermon at All Souls Langham Place, and he said he'd done fifty student missions, and I remember at that stage thinking, wow, fifty student missions. And you're like double Stott.
SPEAKER_05Well I think Stott did a few other things as well as university missions. No one trusts me to do anything else.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, one or two books and things, but uh okay. So when did you begin with the university missions? Uh it's about 12 years ago.
SPEAKER_05Um I got invited by my sister to go and speak at her CU mission week. And so I thought I probably should say yes. Um I'd never done a university mission week. Um I hadn't been to traditional university nice. I had studied theology in a Christian college, so it was quite a new experience really, in every way. Um I look back now and I think, oh gosh, it must have been awful, but it couldn't have been too awful because I got invited to go back and do another one.
SPEAKER_02That's crazy.
SPEAKER_05And um I just had a church that was very supportive and willing for me to travel and do stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02Well you were at Wendsdown Church there in Bournemouth. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I just I just started working for the church in Bournemouth, right?
SPEAKER_02Right, okay. And they've been a great support for many years now.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's great. So I I moved there in 2003, and um and they just gave me a very open remit, really, when I worked on staff to say, you know, your job is to be an evangelist, okay, do it. So um that was great. It gave me the opportunity to try all sorts of different things, and I think one of the things that happened over those five years was although I enjoyed doing lots of things, the thing that I really enjoyed, the thing that I felt maybe this is the Lord saying this is what you should do, is the student missions. Yeah. That's where I kind of felt I kind of came alive the most.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And yet you're still very much plugged into Lansdown Baptists. Is that what you're saying about you?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we dropped the Baptists last year, so yeah, we still baptize people, but we just we didn't think it was the main defining issue of the church. So we're just lands down.
SPEAKER_02You still baptize people by dropping them. And then they back up again.
SPEAKER_05We get well and truly don't, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, but you you do bring them up, that's good.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh but that's that's very important because so often evangelists don't want to tie themselves down to a local church and aren't really connected to a local body of believers. But you you feel that's important?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think it's really critical. I i we come to it in some ways just kind of by evolution, but I I really feel the the way we've kind of got to things is it works really well. So I'm plugged into local church, I'm involved in kind of ongoing ministry, I'm preaching probably about twenty or so times a year. Um but I've also got the freedom to go and do missions elsewhere, and increasingly trying to take people from the church with me so that when we come back, it's rather than me giving the report about what's happened, um, the guys that go with me can report back. And I think people expect me now to say exciting things about missions because I do them all the time, but carries a bit more weight when you've got someone doing their first ever mission week as a guest, coming back and standing up at the front of the church saying it was brilliant and talking about what happens.
SPEAKER_02That's great that you're taking people in the local church. Very good. Good idea. Brilliant. So tell me about your ideal. We'll talk about we'll talk about European missions and how you want to kind of pioneer a lot of missions in in European universities. But in an in a UK setting, what would be your ideal mission that you'd want to do? What would it look like in a week?
SPEAKER_05Um I guess they have a similar kind of format. Um I think the thing that often makes a mission brilliant is not that they you know do it in this venue rather than that venue, but I think the biggest thing is that they have a kind of enthusiasm about Jesus, a prayerful expectancy. Yeah. And yeah, to be at the end of the day, you can do all sorts of different things, but if that's there, it's key, and if it's not there, it doesn't really work. So, I mean, uh an average week uh at a good mission, starting with prayer, kind of an hour before lectures, and you know sometimes you can get 80-90% of the Christian students along to that. We remember one mission we had uh at 150 people every morning at the prayer meeting. And I thought, you know what? I think this week's gonna be exciting, even though I haven't seen anything else. But just that kind of prayerfulness at the beginning of the day, and then we have a team meeting for the guys that come to help, normally do a bit of training and teaching for them, uh, and then head out onto campus. And I always say you're never gonna get everyone in the university to come to an event, but you want everyone in the university to know something's going on. So your publicity has got to make a splash, you've got to be, you know, whether it's gazebos, flyering, stalls, tea, coffee, surveys, questionnaires, something where everyone in the university is gonna work out, hey, what's going on here. And that's a kind of cumulative effect of different forms of publicity. Lunchtime events, um, as central as you can in the university, and uh free lunch, short talk, question time, and you might run that twice over if there's not a fixed lunch break. Again, that can be really exciting, and the people who'll come to that who would never come to a church yet, um, who will just kind of stick their nose in because it's easy, they're walking by. Um, and I find that is a kind of really dynamic setting because you've got you know people who are genuinely asking questions for the first time, they've never heard anything. Um, and then uh bit of break in the afternoon. Yeah. Uh we like to do stuff for international students, kind of early evening. Okay. Uh they were some of the kind of most open people in the university to come along to events. Yeah. Uh so we'll get someone to give a talk specifically kind of relating to some of the issues or questions that internationals would have. And then uh kind of combining together for a large evening event, kind of nice kind of cafe formats, kind of chilled environments, music as people are coming in, but then uh probably about an hour, hour and a quarter, where you'd have a talk intermixed with music, drama, questions, video clips. Yep. Um just kind of a magazine style format as opposed to just kind of here's the talk, it's creative and engaging.
SPEAKER_02And people come to the lunchtime because you know, free lunch and intriguing title and good publicity and it's a central location, and friends bring people along. But then evening is the people who come along are friends of CU members and and those who've come to the lunch bar.
SPEAKER_05Generally, yeah. I think it takes, depending on where you are in the start of the university, I think it takes a lot more interest to come out for an evening event. You know, you've gone home, you've just had dinner, you've got to come back into uni or out to an event. Uh so generally, yeah, I think it kind of shows the kind of depth of friendships that the Christian students have. Um but also, like you say, the lunch bars are kind of key because they can generate interest, and uh we're always plugging away advertising at evening events each lunchtime.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So tell me some good stories about what can happen at a university mission.
SPEAKER_05Um oh gosh, uh, I could tell you a few. I guess I'll give you kind of an individual story, which uh first, which I think is encouraging. I think this kind of shows where I think missions are really helpful. I did a mission week um in one university recently, and we had uh a guy come along the first day, and he came because he was living with some Christians. So he had kind of seen their testimony over the course of the year. Um he was intrigued but didn't understand the gospel. Came to the first lunch bar, we met up afterwards, he had a whole load of questions, we chatted for kind of half an hour or more, came to that evening event, next day came back, and basically came to every event during the week, and after every event, we just sat there and we talked through his questions. So he probably listened to, well, 10 talks by the end of the week and had several hours of gospel conversation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And uh by the Thursday night, I said to him, I said, Look, um, you know, what's stopping you from becoming a Christian? Uh and he kind of thought, he said, Well, I'm not sure. So I said, Well, would you like to? He said, Well, I'm not sure. So I said, Well, I'm gonna give you 24 hours. Uh if you can't think of a good excuse for not becoming a Christian by tomorrow night, I think you should.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And so he's gave him an opt-out, not an opt-in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I kind of didn't want to put the pressure in, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So the next night um he came on to the event and uh at the end uh I kind of made a beeline for him, he wasn't gonna get away. Yeah. And I just said, Okay, have you got a good reason why you shouldn't become a Christian? He said, No. I said, Well, you know what you need to do? He said, Yeah. I said, Okay, I'll pray, you pray, your mate can pray. Let's do this. And yeah. Um it was just wonderful sitting with this guy as you know, he'd just clearly become aware and understanding the gospel, and I responded to it. I got a text message a week later from a friend of mine, and it was a picture of him at the front of the CU meeting sharing his testimony to the other students, and I was just in contact a while back and he's really going on.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I kind of thought it showed how the value of a mission week, kind of building on the ongoing friendships and witnessing of a student group, just people often say to me, Well, you know, it takes so long for the all to become Christians these days. Uh because they don't understand anything about the gospel. So they need to hear a lot. Right. And I kind of think, well, it could take a long time, or you could just give them more opportunities to hear about the gospel. And that's what you're trying to do in a mission, really. You're just trying to give people lots of opportunities so that that process of understanding the gospel that might take a long time could happen more quickly.
SPEAKER_02And that thing with praying with him, is that a thing that you commonly do? You say, I'll pray and then you pray?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I often um kind of it depends on the situation. I don't have a kind of definite set format, but um I find it can be quite helpful for someone actually just to pray out loud with someone else. Yeah, they have to, of course. Yeah. And it's the you know, it's the faith in the heart that counts. But I think for them, just being able to sit down, um, it kind of makes it quite definite, which I think is helpful. So, and it depends. So, in that situation, he was a little bit nervous about doing it, so I kind of want to draw that balance between this is the biggest decision you'll ever make in your life, with this is the most natural response to the best news in the world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So, on the one hand, I don't want to pressurize someone to do something they don't yet want to do, but on the other, I want to say, hey, why not?
SPEAKER_02Call on the name of the Lord.
SPEAKER_05So, yeah, so in that situation, I said, Look, okay, I'll pray. You know, why don't you pray? I didn't give him a set prayer, I said you might want to say something like this, but you know, it's up to you. And then because his Christian mate was sitting there with him as well, I said he can pray afterwards. And so that kind of brought them into the conversation too. So brilliant. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh brilliant. And a big part of your ministering now, and you really want to pioneer this kind of student ministry, student mission into Europe. What's the idea behind that?
SPEAKER_05So, about eight years ago, I was invited to a conference uh called the Foyer Conference. Um, not to be confused with the word Fuhrer, which I used to think it was Fuer doesn't really sound like a good name for an evangelist conference, does it? We want fewer and fewer evangelists. Um FOIA is the German word for fire, and it stands UE Yeah, I can't even spell it, sorry. Yeah, right. The Fellowship of Evangelists in the Universities of Europe. It's really, really bad. Yeah, the R kind of sticks in there somehow. Um but anyway, this network was set up by Lindsay Brown, who was the former general secretary of IFES for a number of years, and he really had a heart to see public proclamation evangelism happening more across the continents. To give you a bit of context, eight years ago, Mission Weeks as a kind of concept happened in Britain regularly, they happened in Germany, but really they weren't happening anywhere else, even though IFES is represented in 40 countries across the continents. There was a lot of personal evangelism going on, but often people were saying, well, we're small, we just can't do public stuff, we don't have the capacity, the resources, and so on. And so this network was set up to really encourage that. And the idea is that people meet together, they build up relationships through that conference in November. And we invite folks to come and see mission weeks that we do in the UK. So now every mission I do, we probably have maybe 10 or 15 guests from across the continent coming to observe, and then we resource them to go and do something in their own context. So I often go to speak at a mission week in a country where they've not done it before for the first couple of years. Um we give them training advice, we might give them some financial help if uh they need it, just to be able to get off the ground. And so we've seen that happen now right across Europe. I think in the last few years we've seen missions take place at least once in 36 different countries. And there's been some real encouragements in that. Um Norway had done missions kind of a number of years ago and then it stopped. And I did a mission in a tiny little town called Volda. Um the university only had a few thousand in it. Um, but as a result of missions taking off in that one town, it kind of then spread across the country. They've appointed a national evangelist in their student movements. Wow. And now pretty much every student group is doing a mission week. Wow. Um, Ukraine went there three years ago to do their first mission week. Um it was quite a tough week. Um went back the following year to do a second one, but now this year they've done missions, well, I think in at least four, maybe five different cities across the country, and they are now sending teams to neighboring countries to help them do their mission as well. So it's really spreading.
SPEAKER_02And I guess that gives confidence that actually proclamation evangelism actually works. That actually clearing a space for a preacher to get up and declare the word of Christ. Was that a hard sell to a lot of different CEUs?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think some people have a real fear, and uh there's two ways you can sell proclamation evangelism, you can say it works, and it does, you know. Normally when you do things that God tells you to do, you find that he honours it. But I think the number one thing is it's a biblical principle. Yeah, I think we see it in scripture. I think if you look at the book of Acts, you see personal evangelism, sure, you know, Philip in the Ethiopian eunuch, you see small group stuff, you know, Paul at the river in Philippi or Lecture Hall of Tyrannas. But you've clearly got proclamation, you know, people declaring the gospel one to many. And so I think the first step is trying to teach people this is a biblical principle. Whether or not it works, whether or not you see fruits, we should do it because it's biblical. Yeah. But then in the goodness of the Lords, you find that it also does work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I think what's happening now is people who have been nervous about doing it have watched others do it, and they say, hang on a minute, this does work. Yeah. I think one of the reasons why people don't like proclamation evangelism is because they've seen it done badly. Sure. Um and so it's you know, it's just not been done in a kind of appropriate conceptual way to the university. Um or it's been very dry and academic. And it's really arguing an academic point, but it's not really commending Christ, it's not Christ focused. And I always say that if you're not proclaiming the gospel, you shouldn't really be surprised that no one responds. Right. Yeah, if all you're trying to do is argue solely for the existence of God or the reliability of the New Testament. Good things to do, but if that's all you do, then you're probably not going to see as much response. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Now, Becky Manley Pippett regularly embarrasses you by saying something that's absolutely true, that you are the most exceptional evangelist at answering questions in lunch bars. She's always said it, and it is true. So, let's learn from the master. When someone fires at you, and it could be in a lunch bar, or it could just be in a pub, when someone fires at you, a real stinger of a question, what's racing through Michael Watson's brain at that point?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I guess, well, Becky's very generous, but I'm not sure it's true. No, it is. Um, but um, I think the first thing I say is there's a difference between answering questions in a conversation like we're having now and answering questions in a kind of public setting where you've got an audience listening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, in conversation, you're having a conversation. So I would I would fire questions back, I would want to know where they're coming from. I want them to be doing the same amount of talking that I am. In a public setting, you can't do that because if you start having a conversation with one individual, the other 99 are all going to disengage essentially. So I think it is a different kettlefish to um doing it personally, and I think that's what some people make a mistake in. Um they're very good at having personal conversations, um, but when they do a public QA, they end up having a conversation with the individual. I think you can't really do. So I guess there's a number of things. I mean, to give you a bit of context, I I really learned in this um as a teenager. So when I was at school, high school, there were an all-boys school of thousands, uh boys, and there were three Christians that I knew of in the school, including myself. Wow. So we started a Christian union, and I was the president, my mate was the vice president, the other guy was the secretary. And uh we used to meet together each week and we thought, you know, this is pretty boring, the three of us. Let's do something to like get other people along. So we used to do these grill of Christian events. Uh we were really provocative because that's the way to get teenage boys along to any events, so wind everyone up and uh Put up posters all over the school, and we get 70, 80 people in a lunch break coming and sitting in this room. And then I got a mate of mine who was one of the leaders of our local church, he was one of our youth leaders, and just uh he wasn't theologically trained, kind of um, in terms of he'd never been to Bible college, you know, anything like that, but he was brilliant at just responding to questions in that kind of setting. And I would sit there and watch this guy answer questions, and he was really modelling to me, something that I've kind of kept for the rest of my life. And one of the things is not to be phased or threatened by people's questions. So we can often kind of get hot under the collar and think, oh no, how are we going to answer it? And the ability to kind of smile at the questioner, thank them for their question, acknowledge that it's a good question. Find some point of identification, you know, to say, actually, yeah, I can see where you're coming from there or I understand why you asked that question, or totally. If that assumption behind your question is correct, then of course that would be an objection. But so I think the first thing I'm doing is just trying to say, hey, the gospel's true. I'm not worried that anyone's about to reveal something now that is going to undermine it all. Yes. And therefore I can become and enjoy it. And I think I want to kind of keep it enjoyable. Um, I want to uh respond. I think um I think the difficulty is, you know, people are asking big questions and you haven't got, you know, why does God love suffering? I can do a whole talk on this, but you can't. So you're trying to think, in the spur of the moment, what is the most helpful thing I can say in response to this? So you're not gonna say everything, and you acknowledge that you're not gonna say everything. Um but you can also encourage people to know where they can find out more.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05So I find it's really helpful to say, hey, I'll chat to you more, or hey, there's a book at the back on this, or there's gonna be a talk tomorrow on that subject, or whatever. So don't pretend that in two minutes you're giving the definitive answer on a particular issue, but try to say something that might be helpful. Um say someone says, you know, are you saying that all religions are completely wrong? Yeah, right. And uh I might say something like, hey, yeah, it does sound really arrogant, doesn't it? Here am I saying every religion is completely wrong and all these people are completely and utterly wrong. And then I say, actually that's not what I'm not saying that. I agree with Muslims on some things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05There are some moral teachings that I have in common. I'm not saying they're wrong in everything.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I said, here's three things I found in Jesus that I haven't found anywhere else. I found a God who's revealed himself in person, not just sending a messenger, but he's come so I can know what he's like. Secondly, here's a God who's made it possible for me to know him, not on the basis of what I've done, but on the basis of what he's done through the cross. And thirdly, here's a God who doesn't wait for me to become good enough for him, but by his spirit, by his power, he is able to change me from the inside to become the person I want to be.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant.
SPEAKER_05And that's what I would say. You know, two minutes, but he's trying to identify, try to acknowledge why they see that as an issue, but then bring it back to Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Oh, this is fun. I'm gonna I'm gonna fly some light in there. Okay. Are you saying I'm going to hell?
SPEAKER_05What a good question. Um I know you're a Christian than to deconvert. I think I would say something like this. I think I would say, hey, that sounds really arrogant, doesn't it? Who am I to say you're going to hell? Actually, why does it sound arrogance? Well, I guess most of us assume people who go to heaven are the good people, right? And the people who go to hell are the bad people. So if I stand here and say I think we're going to hell, basically what I'm saying is, I'm better than you. Arrogance! Can I say that's not what I'm saying? Right. In fact, Christianity affirms that I'm no better than anyone else. In fact, the first step to becoming Christian is to recognise that you don't deserve to get to heaven, that you've messed up and you need God's forgiveness. So I would say, actually, all of us stand in need of God's forgiveness. God offers us who is all in Jesus. Um actually, God has done everything possible so that we don't have to go to hell. The only thing he won't do is force upon you something you've chosen to reject, if you choose to say no to his offer of forgiveness in Jesus. Hey, but don't make that mistake. Wonderful.
SPEAKER_02Alright, well last one. Last one on the spot. Here you are encouraging your religion, but doesn't religion cause all war?
SPEAKER_05Um I would say, well, I guess I'd say, firstly, um, you know what, sometimes it seems that way, doesn't it? Uh particularly when we're talking about. I love what you're doing there.
SPEAKER_02I love uh I love the whole yeah the empathy the empathy with the questioner.
SPEAKER_05I want to say, yeah, it seems that way, doesn't it? You know, we look around, you know, that a lot of wars in the world are caused by religion. I said, but actually, if you look at the statistics, actually, I'd use your statistics from yesterday because you gave a very good pie chart. What was it? Um wars ever in history. Yeah. Uh religion is. So I'd probably throw that in. Uh I didn't know the statistics until you showed it to me. So I'd say, actually, the reality is it's not all wars, is it? Um yeah, some some do. But then I'd just say, hang on a minute, what is religion? Yeah, how do we define religion? Oh, belief in God? Well, that wouldn't be Buddhism then, would it? So it's a belief system. Well, what stops atheism then from being a religion? People believe it, right? I see it's hard to define a belief system. And then I want to say, okay, so it's hard to define religion, you can't just root them all together. So I'd say the question is, sure, people through history from all sorts of worldviews and philosophies have done things that are bad. But my question is, when they've done it, were they being consistent or inconsistent with who they're came to follow?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So that's why you need to get to the heart of it. I'd say, look, if a Christian is someone who follows Jesus, what would it look like to consistently follow Jesus? Hang on, Jesus is the one who says, love your enemies, be good to those who persecute you. He's the one who practiced that on the cross as he forgives those who are killing him. He says his kingdom's not of this world, you know, otherwise his followers would fight. So I've got to say, at least for Christians, when historically Christians have done things that are violent, they were acting inconsistently with Jesus. And therefore the need is not for Christians to be more moderate, I would say, but actually to be more extreme. They need to get back to the heart of what it means to follow Jesus. Extremely follow Jesus, the one who gave his life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Very good. And you've just preached Jesus to me, and and uh you know, add me to your prayer letter. I'm uh I'm another convert. And you're writing a book at the moment uh on these kinds of issues? What's what's your latest book?
SPEAKER_05Uh it's just come out um two months ago. Um so it's called But Is It True?
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_05Um So the first book I wrote was called What Kind of God? Yeah. And I basically discovered that the questions that people ask can be boiled down into two kind of categories. Um people can say basically, is it good? Yeah. And or is it true? Right. Um and the strapline someone said of new atheists is that they don't believe in God and they hate him. So it's this kind of intellectual objection is moral objection. So my first book, What Kind of God, was really dealing with the moral objections. So suffering, sexuality, hell, other religions and so forth. Um and then this one is really dealing with some of the more intellectual objections. So, isn't faith irrational? Hasn't science very God? Can I really trust what the Bible says about Jesus? Are miracles possible? Yeah. What about the resurrection? Who was Jesus? Similar to the first one, I want to get to Jesus, but it's really building a case increasingly through using people's objections. And that's something we've been doing this week actually in our track. We've been saying, rather than being afraid of people's objections, see objections as opportunities through which you can bring people to actually look at Jesus. Brilliant. And what do you hope the book achieves? Um, I wrote it as a book that you could give to people who don't know Jesus. Um, for two reasons. One, because I want people to give it to people who don't know Jesus. And um, yeah, I've got friends who don't know Jesus. Um actually I get them all to proofread it, so that's quite fun and get their feedback. But you know, it's something I can give to those for whom these are their objections. And I hope that Christians see it as a resource that they can maybe give to friends who are raising these kind of questions. I I don't claim to be original on all this stuff, but what I'm trying to just do is take stuff that other people have written, maybe on a higher level, but just make it in a kind of popular, accessible format. Um, in a way that well, I generally say if you're writing for students, then everyone should be able to understand.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_05Um, you know, not the most academic PhD student, but the average undergraduate who's thinking about this. So that would be the first thing. But the second thing is I think I'd hope that Christians reading it um discover ways of articulating responses to questions that hopefully will be helpful to those they talk to. I have found as a Christian, I've learned so much about sharing my faith by listening to other people do it or by reading other evangelistic books. So Michael Green, who I work with, yeah, he's written so many books, and I just find sitting reading his evangelistic books, his books written for non-Christians, are the things that really encourage me. And I think, oh wow, that's a great way of putting it. I can use that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And there's no such thing as theft in the Christian world, is there? Just borrowing. Very much hope nuts.
SPEAKER_02I'm in a lot of trouble. Yeah. But uh I mean it is interesting that publishers tend to say there's not much of a market for evangelistic books anymore. Because Christians don't want to read evangelistic books. I I just don't get that. Like, like I love reading evangelistic books. Yeah. Yeah, I I don't I Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I don't get it too. I I just think it's kind of crazy that um I mean that's what I keep encouraging Christians to do. I think sometimes Christians just think, well, it's not for me because I'm already a Christian. I'm like, what, you mean the gospel's not for you? I mean it's like I sometimes go to speak at church events, at Christian events, and um the the Christians say, Well, I'm not coming. Like, what do you mean? It's like, well, you're preaching the gospel, I know that. And I'm like, come on, say before. So I just think we need to hear it, and we need to hear it explained and expressed in ways that are going to be helpful because we can learn from that ourselves. So um yeah, I think we need to get the books out there. I mean, I wrote these books thinking, look, I kind of speak at stuff enough to kind of distribute them myself. If anyone else buys them as a bonus. Um but uh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I hope it sells in the millions and encourages Christians and equips Christians and then reaches the non-Christians with the gospel. But um yeah, and and all the best with all these European missions as well. Because it's very exciting to see the bug getting caught by other Christians and and spreading virally in a good contagion. So uh bless you with all your ministry. Thanks, Ben. No worries. Cheers.
SPEAKER_01So that was uh Michael Otts uh responding to your grilling.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well I I I like the idea that he was on the receiving end of these hot potato questions rather than me. Yeah, it's usually as well. It's usually me in the hot seat. It was good to put him in the hot seat. But I th I love the way he answered them and and and I I just think that that was just something I I very much took away from the conversation. His determination to see things from the perspective of the ask and to say, yeah, no, I I see where you're coming from. It would seem like X, Y, and Z and if God was like this, this, and this, I completely see where you're coming from. And and I used to think this way. But what if you kind of thought about it in in this perspective? And I I just thought that was a really, really helpful way into answering questions. Not to not to instantly give you give people the answer, but uh but what your first move is to join them in their question and to join them in their doubts and to join them yeah walk a walk a mile in their shoes first and then give them the answer. So that's something I'll I I want to bring into my evangelism a lot more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because you know, generally people are coming from their eyes a completely genuine position, yeah, you know, whether that's background or teaching or or what they've understood so far.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And that that's really because you could see the Q and A time as you as the evangelist are being tested in what you know. Yeah. So someone asks you about an issue and can you talk for five minutes about it? You betcha, here we go. Let me download on you. Um but just really stepping back and thinking, actually what we're trying to do is win people, persuade people. And the way you persuade people is by seeing things from their perspective and then Yeah, giving giving them the truth in that context. So yeah, so lots lots to learn, and I I hope people have found it uh really helpful.
SPEAKER_01If folks are wanting to get in touch with uh uh Michael or follow some of his stuff, where would they go?
SPEAKER_03So you can follow me on Twitter uh at Michael underscore otts, that's O T S. Um and his online presence, his new website is is great. Um I never know how to pronounce it though. Is it Moe Online M-O-E-T or is it moet? Moeit. Um if you like the champagne, you say moeonline.org. Um or if you're an uncultured Australian, you just say mo it. Moetonline.org.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And of course we'll have a a link to that on on the show notes for this episode. Uh just go to our website speaklife.org.uk slash tep and you'll find all the episodes there. Uh including this one with a link to uh Moet. Moet Online. Also, while you're there, uh if you'd like to give us a rating review, we'll be uh Over the Moon. Over the moon. Over the moon. If you'd like a free copy of Glen's book three two one just go to speaklife.org.uk slash I love te p. Ah and then you can fill out a rating review and like us on Facebook. Really?
SPEAKER_03A free book? Is this like a special offer? Okay. So if so if someone comes on board and gives us a one-star review, they still get a free book, don't they? Because that's great, isn't it? It is. We uh we have to do that.
SPEAKER_01We have to. We can't grudging grace. Give us a five-star review. Yeah. Yeah. We'll be more cheerful when we give it a five-star review.
SPEAKER_03Just be honest. That's a fine. Just be honest. Just be honest. I mean everyone else has given us five stars, but if you want to give us one, that's fine. Be that guy. Go on.
SPEAKER_01But then you probably wouldn't be wanting a free book if you did.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's probably yeah. Unless you were really cruel and just wanted to deplete our resources by one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, anyway. So Glenn, tell us a bit more about uh the opportunity of studying here in Eastbourne with you in September.
SPEAKER_03Well, you can study for a graduate diploma in theology through Union, and uh it's a two-year course where you study six modules. Let's see if I can remember the six modules. You study um church history, you study preaching and partial care, you study uh systematic theology, you study uh biblical language, probably Greek, you study uh old and next, and you study church and mission. And over the course of these two years you do these six modules. Usually it takes um one day of lectures. Down here in Eastbourne we do our lectures on a Monday, and then another day a week of of study. And over the course of the two years that adds up to your graduate diploma. Now that graduate diploma can also be countered towards um other awards if you want to keep on building up the credits. And so that can that can add up to a BA or an MA in theology. So all of it uh uh happens through union. You can go to ust.ac.uck, us.ac.uk. Sounds like Glenn Goffing or No, no. Sounds like Mars attacks, doesn't it? Umst.ac.uck, um which is the union website, or you can come to speaklife.org.uk and you can find out more about that study opportunity. Um so yeah, we'd love to have you studying with us in ESPON. If ESPON is too far for you, then there are um I think 14 other learning hubs up and running around the continent. So maybe there's one near you um and just get in touch and we can put you in touch with someone who can help. Okay. Uh how much does it cost? So one year's fees are about three thousand three hundred. So um there are bursaries that you can apply for and there are scholarships both with union and with us. So um if money is an issue, do get in touch and we can start a conversation.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So do that by going to speaklife.org.uk.
SPEAKER_03What's coming up next week? Next week I'm going to be giving a uh a lunch bar talk, a a talk about um doesn't God cramp your style? I forget what the title is, it's something about freedom. Um Does Christianity really liberate you? Uh it was a talk that I gave up in Durham last week. And uh so there's a talk and then there's a question and answer time, and so you can test me. Now that you've heard Michael Otz and his brilliant ways of answering, you can uh you can figure out whether I've learnt anything from Michael Otz. Uh I don't think I have I think I've just downloaded on people. But um so you can you can um yeah. So we'll be we'll be listening to that talk as a way of thinking about a big issue in the culture. People look at Christians and they just think, well, that would cramp my style. Um why would I come to God? He's just the party pooper, right? Um and and thinking about this issue of freedom, which is a massive issue in the culture, and actually in the New Testament. Um it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. It's just that what we mean by freedom or what the world means by freedom is not always the same thing. We'll be thinking through that next week.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so to make sure you don't miss that episode, uh subscribe to the Evangelist Podcast if you're not a subscriber already. You can do that on iTunes or on Stitcher or uh Android, probably any podcatcher that you've got. Uh, just go to speaklife.org.uk slash T E P. Okay, and that's it for now. See you next time. See ya.