Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we talk to Peter Mead about the heart of the Evangelist.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast from Speak Life. I'm Andy Brinkley, media producer, and here's my good friend and boss, Poet Extraordinaire. Fine cricketer and unrelenting evangelist. Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that was unrelenting. Um hello Fine Cricketer. I think I I'm hoping to play a game on Monday for the first time in like a year. So yeah. And then I'll just complain about it for the next three weeks.
SPEAKER_01Who do you play with?
SPEAKER_03I I think I will um I will play for the Chichester Diocese in the Church Times Cup. So um Yeah. And then yeah, be sore for another three weeks. The most unnatural movements in the world. When you're bowling, especially. It's kind of this odd thing. But um yeah, you you feel like death the next day, but then you feel even worse two days after. Three days after is the worst that you could possibly feel. And then it starts to get better from there.
SPEAKER_01Resurrection. And then yeah, on the third day. Yeah, god's an illustration there, huh?
SPEAKER_03Maybe. Yeah. It is it is God's own sport though, Craig.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. And uh we also need to talk about you being a poet. Doing right? You were at the London Men's Convention. Okay, yes, I was. And uh you gave a presentation come video come poem.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01How did it go?
SPEAKER_03I don't know, it kind of went alright. I I had to um so it was called Radical well, the whole conference was called Radical Calling. And they asked me, could I do something Radical? Yeah, radical for it. Um and so eventually I hit upon the poem that I then did, which we will release at some stage um in the not too distant future. Um and it's it's basically a poem about how Jesus is the ultimate radical and he radicalizes us, but that doesn't mean the radical that goes into the cinema and shoots up things. Like, why when we think of radicals do we think of the guy with the gun who shoots everybody? Why don't we think about you know, in Aurora, um was it in Colorado where the the Batman um was it Batman Rises was was being released and and he went and shot up and he shot like seventy people or something and and I think twelve died and but there were four boyfriends who th you know flung themselves in front of their girlfriends and saved their lives. Like that's pretty radical. Or you think of you know, the Charleston shooter who went into that church and and again shot up a Bible study, but then the family members start forgiving him like in court, and it's just this incredible scene of of mercy and grace triumphing over evil and hatred and and um that's pretty radical. Like who who's the radical there? Is it the shooter or is it those who pray for him? Or you think of that the Amish, you know, schoolhouse that was shut up by um a guy who then shot himself, but then the widow of the shooter was then forgiven by the families of of of the Amish, and she was just overwhelmed and became a Christian through that. Which is more radical? Like the shooter or those who forgive the shooter, and so yeah, so it's playing with that idea, like who who is the real radical and Jesus calls us to be radicals. So uh so armed with a kind of a a video backing in which there's all sorts of footage of of these um events going on behind me, and and then I have to sort of deliver my lines um in the Royal Albert Hall, that was fun. Um I actually I didn't know this until I'd done it, but my sister had actually performed because she was she's a trumpeter and she'd actually performed at the Royal Albert Hall. And my my mum actually said to me, I thought it was it would only be my sister who would ever you know perform at the Royal Albert Hall. So then I was like, Ha ha in your face, sis. I've done it too. And um so but it it was it was funny that I uh you know I I I got a uh a radical t-shirt made up, and so it just had the word radical emblazoned across the front. And uh because I had to like fly to Poland, and we'll we'll say why I had to fly to Poland in a second, um, I had this massive suitcase with me. I was on the train up to London, big radical t-shirt, massive, massive kind of suitcase with me on the train, and I'm muttering to myself because I'm trying to remember my lines. Instead of radical, radical, extremist, extremist, radical, radical And there are people opposite me on the train who got up and I thought they were gonna leave the train. No, they just went down the carriage. They leave that that muttering radical to himself, um which was funny. But yes, so I I went and performed a poem to the Albert Hall, and I think I think I got away with a couple of uh fluffed lines and things, but um Um Yeah. Yeah, we got there and and that was fun.
SPEAKER_01Good. Well we look forward to a video of that. Watch this space. And then you went from there straight to Poland.
SPEAKER_03Yes, with my big bag full of bombs and things. Um and not really. I went to Poland for a uh You know, you know, you m you mustn't even joke.
SPEAKER_01I've heard people joking, it's like, oh yeah, this violin case got a gun in it, you know, and been carted off and uh.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, when you're in the when you're in the queue for for customs, don't make those jokes. They they didn't have the greatest sense of humour. Um but I I feel like I've got some distance from it now. But um Yeah, so I went to Poland for a uh conference called the European Leadership Forum, and that's a whole bunch of evangelical leaders, mainly from uh across Europe and trying to help one another out in uh re-evangelizing Europe. So um yeah, I got to speak a few times there and got to meet up with a whole bunch of people, including our special guest for today.
SPEAKER_01Peter Meade. Peter Meade. So how have you known Peter Meade? Where's he? Where is he from?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I mean I I first maybe like five, six years ago I first um uh started to hear about Peter Mead and especially uh his Cordeo, which is the Latin for heart of God, and it's a sort of a way of of discipling young leaders in yeah, in knowing God's heart for us and how to pastor others and and to to bring the love of God into others' hearts um through preaching and discipleship. Um so it's a it's a great thing, Cordeo, and uh he's now uh planted a church called Trinity Chippenham, and um he's also the author of a great blog, BiblicalPreaching.net. He is a very good preacher in his own right, and has uh he did his PhD under Haddon Robinson, who's a great um preacher in the States, and uh so he's got all sorts of very interesting things to say uh about preaching. But in particular, I I really appreciate his focus on the heart of the preacher, the heart of the evangelist, that we're not sort of uh academically transferring information about who God is, but we are sharing the heart of God with other people, a heart that we know and uh engaged with. And therefore, yeah, really evangelism is the is the sharing of a heart. So, what does that mean for an evangelist? It means, well, we need to make sure that our our hearts are warm and being nourished by the gospel constantly. Um and so yeah, I just thought it would be a great ch chance to kind of talk to him about those issues. Yeah, because we had him on before, didn't we, back in uh he spoke about his book Please to Dwell, which is a a fantastic sort of overview of the Bible about how the incarnation is this theme that sort of holds the whole Bible together. So that was a great book, Please to Dwell. He's also written the book uh Foundations, and he's going to come out with uh another book that's all about our union with Christ. And perhaps later in the year we'll we'll talk to him again about that book and how union with Christ really is sort of the centerpiece of the gospel and and what we should be communicating to people in evangelism. But we'll uh we'll hang fire on that. Um but uh yeah, our interview for for this episode really really is on the heart of the evangelist and how we can make sure that we are warm-hearted speakers of the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well you've whetted our appetite enough. Let's uh hear it then.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm here with Peter Meade on the Evangelist Podcast. Great to have you back on the show. Thank you. Good to be back. And we are talking here in the uh the the European Leadership Forum here in Does sound nice, doesn't it? It does sound nice, and it's it's in a very nice plush hotel in Visla in Poland. And uh can you can you summarize the the ELF for people?
SPEAKER_02It's like a very possible question, isn't it? Uh I I sometimes uh think of the ELF as being like the modern day mystery religion. You know, that you can't really explain it, you just have to experience it. No, it's it's a gathering that began, I believe, about 15 years ago, uh, as the European Apologetics Network. It was kind of an attempt to bring apologists together and and help them to share resources, and it grew from that to uh have a whole host of networks. So there's uh scientists, there's apologists, there's disciples, yeah, theologians, church leaders, church planters, uh just a whole load of things, and Bible teachers and preachers, which is the network I get to do.
SPEAKER_04That's your thing, and you've been doing that for a few years now. This is my fourth year. Okay, fantastic. Brilliant. So why is it preaching that you particularly want to want to uh focus on here?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think in some ways it's be because it's a subject or a ministry area that I fell in love with. I grew up as the son of a preacher, as a shy son of a preacher, not the son of a shy preacher, that'll be different, but uh a shy son of a preacher who had no intention to ever preach as long as I lived. I was scared of my own shadow, I certainly didn't want to stand in front of people. Um and and so as a uh a late teen, God got a hold of me and kind of turned my heart around. And it wasn't an issue of God wanted to make me a preacher, it was I think God was helping me see that I could trust him with my life, not just in theory, not just for salvation, but actually if he wants me, uh if if he made me, obviously he did. If he saved me, yes he has. Should I trust him with my life? Actually, I should.
SPEAKER_04And was it an issue with trusting him with your life as a preacher, or was it the mechanics of getting up in front of people and speaking? No, I just wanted a normal life.
SPEAKER_02I wanted God to bless my plans, you know, and so I was in some ways a normal Christian teenager. I prayed a prayer and I was definitely uh self-confessing as a Christian, you know, I would see myself as a Christian, but I had my own plans. I wanted a normal life instead of a preacher's life, which I'd observed, or missionary life, which I'd observe. And so I wanted um I wanted a job and I wanted a certain kind of house and a certain kind of family and a certain kind of pet dog. Yes. And God please bless my plans. Yes. And so when he turned that around and and I realized, no, hang on, this is ridiculous. Why am I asking him to bless my plans as if I've got a good idea for my life? Isn't God impressed?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Instead just say, Oh, actually, Lord, I trust you. Whatever you want. And then instantly I had the sense of I'm probably going to be preaching, maybe admissions, and it it all the fear was gone, all the negativity was gone. And the shyness? Um I'm still shy. Temperamentally. You know, if if there's a kind of a social gathering, I'll tend to head towards a corner and chat to one person, and I won't, you know, work the room or anything.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um but yeah, in in terms of the fear of public speaking, that was gone. Right. And so people think I'm not shy because I can stand up in front of a crowd and um communicate somewhat effectively.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so it's what would you say to someone who's they like the idea of preaching, but it also scares the life out of them in terms of that you know natural fear of public speaking. What would you say to such a person?
SPEAKER_02That's that's a complicated one in a way, because I'm I'm nervous about someone who likes the idea of preaching first time. What's that about? Um But if let's say that you know the motivations are right and and God's got a real kind of grip on them and they've got a sense that it's maybe something they should explore, then it's it's good to fear the public speaking. You don't want to go into that self-confident. Um it's not something you want to be professional about. You know, I've mastered public speaking. There should be a sense of trepidation and a sense of responsibility. This is serious. I'm I'm speaking for God, I'm representing God's word, this is major. But in some ways, I there's no I I what I hear is those kind of trite uh little kind of pithy ideas. This is the way to do it. Imagine everyone naked. It's the last thing you want to be preaching. I wasn't expecting that to be your advisor. No, no, no. But people say that as if there's some kind of little switch that can overcome public speeching speaking fear. Yes. But you know, it's but that's gonna happen. You're gonna make mistakes, but but not as much as you think.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02And it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you think. No, because it's not about you. It's about okay, and that actually it's it's kind of like when I do a preaching class and there's someone in the class who is uh English is their second language. I always recognize that for them it fills them with a fear that the English speakers don't have. Obviously, I've preached in a foreign language very badly, and I know how how limited you feel. What I say to them is, you know what, you're at an advantage because if you speak in English when it's not your language, yeah, everyone in this room wants you to succeed.
SPEAKER_04They are leaning forwards, they are on your side.
SPEAKER_02You make a mistake, they're not gonna laugh, they're gonna try to understand what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll be following you twice as close. Exactly. And for us English first language speakers, yeah, if we trip up, they're not leaning in in the same way, they won't be nasty, but there's a there's almost an advantage to that. And so if you're coming up to preach for your first time, I remember that many years ago. People sense that you're nervous, people can tell it's your first time, and they're leaning in and they want you to succeed, and they appreciate it, and they thank you for it. So actually, it's not. This is where I'm going wrong.
SPEAKER_04See, I always say the difference between my me and my wife is I kind of get up there as I bound around like a Labrador, kind of just being all noisy and getting in people's faces, and then yeah, no one's leaning into that. They're all scary. Whereas my wife just sort of sits down and she might even like sit cross-legged on the floor and she's got a cup of tea with her, and she's like, Let me tell you a story, and everyone's just leaning in. You should try that, I should try it. Sit on the pulpit cross-legged. Um that's interesting. Okay, and yeah, and and that works with all sorts of fears, isn't it? I mean, a lot of stuff about fear is it's not about trying not to fear. It's okay, you're fearful about it. Yeah. Talk to God about it. Talk to God about it. And there's a bigger thing going on than that fear. And that bigger thing is what God's up to in the world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and it's it's like witnessing, it's like, you know, whatever. You feel the right thing to do. I want to go on a mission trip, but I'm nervous, I'm scared of flying or something. Just hold God's hand and go for it. You know, if it goes wrong, you die and you go be with God. Yeah. But but in reality, He carries us through those things, and we fumble, we make mistakes, and it's okay. Okay. Or we don't, and we're pleasantly surprised.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So we're gonna talk about um we've just had a session on the heart and the heart of the preacher. Yeah. Um before we get into that, what is your goal in preaching?
SPEAKER_02My goal in preaching is to using the the text that I've got, preaching a Bible passage, I want to be faithful to that passage. I want to preach what's actually there. I want to not be imposing some kind of message on it. I want I want to help people see what it says because it's such good communication. God is a great communicator. And so out of that conviction and a really kind of high view of the Bible, if you want to put it that way, I'm just excited about the Bible. I want that to be communicated, but that's not it. That that's kind of the sort of underlying thing that I'm sort of the mechanism of what's going on. But actually, what I'm trying to do is help people to see how God reveals Himself there. Because the Bible isn't a data bank of uh random trivia, you know, from the ancient Near East for uh New Year's Eve Christian parties where we can't do anything fun, so we have Bible quizzes. Do you have Bible quizzes for you? No, but actually, think about there was always one at some point, you know, some obscure question. And it gets just embarrassing once you've been to Bible school because they always look to you and you go, Oh, you didn't know that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's not what I went to Bible school. Anyway, uh so I'm I'm preaching the text. I I want to get the true and exact meaning of that text, but in order that people can see how God is revealing himself there and respond to him. And I think that's that's shifted over the years. Um at times I think I've probably tried to simply educate, to simply explain the text because the Bible was an end in itself. Maybe at times I've tried to um apply pressure to try and get people to conform to some kind of uh expectation implicit in the text. But but now I'm I'm much more clear, I hope, and and pray in my own prayer uh preaching that that I want I'm preaching a person, I want people to encounter him through this, whether it's an Old Testament narrative or a story about Jesus or an epistle passage, whatever it is. It's whatever it is, it's theocentric, it's about God. And I want them to see that and have the opportunity to respond to that. I'd like them to respond positively, but that's not something I can control.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What I can do is give the best presentation possible, prayerfully, dependent on God. Here's the best I've got, Lord, do something. Yes. It's down to Him to bring the growth, the response, and so on.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that's interesting. I I remember at Bible College being told that I want I I need to explain and then apply the text. And that sounds like your early preaching. You know, you go through the text, you unpack it for people, which is what people often do.
SPEAKER_02Give them hooks to hang their thoughts on and those kind of phrases.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Um so you unpack the teaching and you explain, and then you apply it. Um because that's the extra step. You've gone you've gone beyond. If there's any time left. If there's any time left, read your Bible, pray, and evangelize more. Um, it fits in the final prayer if you're out of time. But what you're saying, it's it's not it's not even the third step beyond that. It's it's infusing the whole process is that you're offering the person of Christ, is revealing God to people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it not in a way that imposes something on the text that I'm dealing with. Sure. Um so it's not my job as a preacher to always preach the entirety of the canon wherever I am. Yes. You know, because sometimes uh we can we can be dealing with a passage, uh it's it's about characters, you know, in a certain circumstance, um, David and Jonathan or whatever. And and there are ways to kind of follow the thread through to Christ. I'm not saying that's not possible, but sometimes it feels like an imposition to do that, uh, and so we feel a bit stuck if if that's our desire. Um and so, or we don't think about that at all, and we simply make it a human-level instruction. So go and be like Jonathan. He's a good mate, be like him. Um but but Jonathan and David, or you know, David in the David and Goliath story, or whatever, they're living in that moment in their own, kind of at a fork in the road. Am I gonna trust God, what I know of him, and what his character is and has been revealed to me, or am I gonna trust myself? It's that sense of the war of the words from Genesis 3. Did God really say? He's not here, you can't see him. Why should you trust him? Trust what's trust yourself to do what's best for you. And so every character all through the Bible is at that fork in the road in every decision, just like we are. And so if I can if I can make it point to Christ in a in a way that that doesn't feel like I'm doing some kind of injustice to the text, great. But I can always help people to see how this is part of the revelation of God's character and response to that. And so, yeah, I want to be specific to the text I'm in, but it's always that higher goal that's going on.
SPEAKER_04And in and through that text, in its historical situation and not doing damage to the text, you want the person sitting hearing to be confronted with that same God, who was David's God, who was Jonathan's God. And be and you can't make this happen, but you want them to be trusting, receiving the words.
SPEAKER_02That would be the right response. Yeah. But it's a response, it's not it's not a responsibility that I can burden them with and pressure them to make the right choice or whatever.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's it's a response that they're either going to find him attractive or they're gonna be repulsed by him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, that's that's kind of between them and him.
SPEAKER_04But in the flow of the scriptures, you want to present him as attractively as he is in the scriptures.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. I'm not imposing anything on scriptures. The scriptures are giving us an absolutely compelling, multifaceted revelation of the wonderful character of God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And so, yeah, it's all the way through presenting a person and I look at Paul's reference to his preaching ministry in Galatians or in 1 Corinthians, and talking about preaching Christ and him crucified, or is before your very eyes that Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Yes. For me, that's huge. Galatians 3. Placarded. Yeah. Like the biggest billboard poster you've ever seen on the not not just a warehouse, like on the side of an aircraft hangar at the Boeing factory. That was my preacher. That's how big my picture of Jesus was when I preached. Yeah. Clearly. Forget PowerPoint. Paul gave the biggest poster ever. And you responded to that. You trusted. And it wasn't an effort or a work, or it was by faith that you received the Spirit in that moment. And so now you think you're going to become mature by turning back on yourself and what must I do? And give me some applications, preacher. I need a to-do list. So that I find that really challenging. Wherever I am in the Bible, I still got to preach a person. Yeah. Not preach points.
SPEAKER_04Points or moralistic kind of programs. Hello? But a person, yeah. And you've got to do three P, doesn't it? Absolutely. That's the law.
SPEAKER_02If it's going to be true preaching.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02How important is preaching to the life of the church? Massively important. It's not exclusively important. I think that the life of the church requires every part of that church to be giving of itself in response to Christ. The gospel is being kind of bubbling over from one life to another, and one person showing a care and compassion, another person showing mercy, another person exhorting. All the kind of the spiritual gifts and the body life of the church is critical. But the preaching is like the diet. It's what sets the tone, it sets a framework for all those other things. It protects the sheep within the flock from false teaching and from dangers from the outside. But really it's that pastoral feeding. I think about my wife and our children. The meal is quite a significant part of daily life. Yes. And that's not the entirety of daily life. Yeah, right. Or even the entirety of family health.
SPEAKER_04Yes. But without it.
SPEAKER_02Without it, it would be a problem.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yeah. And you don't just put the ingredients on the table either. Traditionally not. No. Although you do with some Mexican foods, but maybe that's defeating your point. Yeah. Some taco salad. No more. Yeah. No more tapas preaching. Okay, that's that'll be my next paperback. Okay, so you've got a big vision for the heart of God reaching out through the scriptures by the Spirit, meeting the heart of the listener. Yeah. What place does the heart of the preacher play in all of that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Very significant part because the preacher does not show up and hand over a set of notes. You know, if if uh written communication was all that was needed, I mean obviously God's got a high view of written communication, he gave us a Bible. Uh but if that's all that was needed, we could simply cut out, rip out the pages, and here's a page, you know, read this, it's better than anything I could say. But there's something about preaching that I think um part of why preaching is so uh significant is because God has that incarnational impulse. Yeah. In as much as the Son uh became one of us in a lesser way, obviously, but still in a significant way. God's word is being communicated from person to person as we preach.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so therefore it has to be that way. No, not at all. Angels could have come and pieces of paper, teletext, remember teletext on the TV?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. One to seven three. You probably need to update your illustrations just to.
SPEAKER_02I haven't used that one ever. Random thought. A webpage, God's webpage. But yeah, when the preacher, so when the preacher is is preaching to the church, there's a relationship that's occurring there. There's a heart-to-heart connection.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and preachers that don't get that tend to just transmit information. Yeah. And listeners uh tend to be fairly discerning because they sense a lack of warmth or a lack of connection or a lack of what's the motivation here, you know. Whereas when when the preacher actually has prepared, and I think a key part of the preparation is to do your study and to get to grips with the passage, but then to bring the fruit of that study before God and say, okay, Lord, thank you so much. I've had this time with you, it's been it's been a real blessing, real privilege. But now I'm also bringing to you not just the fruit of this study, but also these people. And you love them, and honestly, I don't love them like you do, but I want to have a glimpse of your heart for them. If I'm going to communicate as an act of love, I need your love. So here's the idea, here are the people. How do these two go together? Lord, help me with that. Give me a glimpse of your heart. And if that kind of motivation can go into the preparation of the message, then hopefully when the preacher stands up or sits, you know, we're 21st century preachers now, uh, whatever way.
SPEAKER_04Well, like first century preachers.
SPEAKER_02Luke 4, Jesus sat down to preach. Absolutely. Rabbi, the rabbi model has returned in the form of a barstool. But that, you know, when that moment comes to preach, the listeners that something is occurring in that first two seconds, something's occurring in the first 30 seconds. Yeah. And it it's it's not conscious, it's not rational, it's it's it's part of our relational wiring. And if the preacher stands up and just kind of dives in and drones and frowns and stamps and huffs, we pick that up before he's even finished his introduction.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Whereas if he stands up and he loves, that there's a sense of connection.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then the the relational, the communication is not just one way. You may not have people responding verbally, but facially, you know, the body language, there's a connection that's occurring there, communication's happening, and I think that that there's something about the incarnation, even in that, that makes preaching special.
SPEAKER_04And so you want to get up and do them good. You know, when you get up into the pulpit, you want you and you want that sense to be on your heart. This is feeding your people and loving your people and and lifting their eyes to Jesus, giving them hope in times of struggle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Giving them and and and doing them good in the same sense that God wants to do us good. But sometimes you know, the passage may be quite rebuking and they might need it. Your rod and star they comfort me. That doesn't mean that my own personal uh kind of counselling baggage means that everything, you know, if if you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And you know, some people are are hammers and they just want to have a hammer on everything, and every passage becomes a you know, a beat them up passage. I'm not saying that. But sometimes sometimes a passage is saying something pretty stunning, pretty shocking, and you go, Oh Lord, I'm not sure if I want to do it that way. And then you pray about it and you think about the people, and you go, actually, this church needs that. And then it takes courage to do it, but it's still an act of love.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02May not be received as such, but it's still an act of love.
SPEAKER_04So, what is it that gets in the way of you or of preachers in general, having that heart for the people and and having that heart for God? Yeah. Having that heart to engage in the scriptures, what gets in the way?
SPEAKER_02My flesh. I think that what's the ultimate problem? What's our ultimate definition of sin? If if we think of sin as sins, then I might be able to avoid that for quite a while. Sins I I don't do. I haven't done murder, you know. Sins that you and so if if I if I'm living on that superficial level, I can miss the fact that something deeper is going on, but really sin is a heart level issue. And so um at the core of who I am, my default, which is where my flesh will always pull me, is to love me. And instead of loving them and and preparing a message out of love for them, I'm naturally in my own flesh going to love myself and uh whatever. That could manifest itself in gross sin, but it could also manifest itself in kind of smug self-righteous laziness. There's all sorts of options there. And in the same way, my heart, I've got a new heart, new covenant, God's transformed my heart, but my flesh is pulling the inclination away. And so if if I'm cold towards God and I'm not feeling uh the the appropriate feeling or affective response to the text, then I'm just preaching, I'm just delivering content. But in an ideal world, I should be responding to that with the Lord uh first and then pouring that out to others. Doesn't mean I'm gonna be all gushy in the way I preach, but there should be a an integrity between what I'm talking about and how I'm saying it and what's going on on the inside of me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if there's not, then people sense that. I think whether they're conscious of it or not, in the same way as a dog can sense if you don't like it, and it won't keep coming back to you know get stroked if you're about dogs, I think humans are wired relationally way better than dogs are, and we can sense if someone doesn't like us or if someone's not in a good place, and we may not consciously say, Oh, I'm wondering about what's happening with the pastor or something, but the connection's much less, the bandwidth is much, much less. And so, yeah, I think it's but that's a reality. It's it's not like we're perfect or we're gonna achieve perfection. There's gonna be that struggle every single time we communicate. Yeah. There's always gonna be a mixture of self-love, mixed in, and pride and other motivations.
SPEAKER_04So we've had uh John Piper here at the uh European Leadership Forum, and and he uh spoke today actually about uh very regularly on a Thursday. Yeah. It was just the worst day of the week for him. Contemplating Sunday, wasn't feeling it. Um do you have Thursdays like that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, some Thursdays, some Fridays, some Wednesdays. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's it's not I'm sure it's not unusual for preachers to to be preaching on the Sunday thankful that they're in a different place than they were a few days before. Um the scary thing is when Sunday comes and you're still in that place. Yeah. We talked about that with John Piper as well. Uh he talked about that. So yeah, it's it's a it's a real issue, but we we don't want to set up some kind of perfect ideal where we can be absolutely Christ-like in our incarnational ministry.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because we've got the flesh, we've got the struggles, we've got the we're in a spiritual battle, there's the there's a real, there's a whole set of issues around this. But I think if we're not careful, we will just dismiss the heart and just say, ah, it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The heart means the mind. You know, those kind of comments, as if the heart is completely irrelevant, and therefore, I can preach on Sunday no matter where my heart is at, the same as I could teach a sociology class at college on Monday, no matter where my heart is at. Although I think in both cases your communication is still gonna be be hindered. Yeah. Because the even the best teachers uh in in a in an education setting are those that give of of themselves rather than just give information. Yeah, yeah. But there's always that tendency, we're always tempted to go that way.
SPEAKER_04Yes. And like you say, that the ideal for the preacher is it it's neither to ignore the heart, nor is it to pretend to some kind of super spirituality where I never have Thursdays like that, or I never have dips like that. You know, I'm thinking of uh Hebrews 5 that talks about the the weakness of the high priest who is a man just like all people, and therefore was able to sympathize with others in their weakness, and and and that there's there's something about the weakness of a preacher that can communicate the gospel to people and can minister to people even more profoundly. But I guess you've got to drop the mask at that point.
SPEAKER_02You have, and that's hard that's that's hard for everyone at some level, and some of us will find that harder than others. And I don't think it's because I I struggle to be vulnerable. Uh if you just ask my people that listen to me in my congregation, they'll tell you, hey, it's not always gushing in with vulnerability. Um it's not because I'm trying to avoid it. It's maybe temperament, it's maybe personality, I don't I don't feel like I want to talk about me at all, really. When I'm preaching, I tend to be enjoying the Bible, but it can come across as I've got it altogether and I'm fine.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, and so I need to be conscious of that, and to improve my preaching, I probably need to consciously, deliberately reveal myself more. You know, so don't uh we don't want to just say, you know, preachers that aren't vulnerable in every sermon are just you know faking it, sinful and evil and faking it. Yeah. Um but yeah, it's it's uh it's a complex thing. But then equally there's the opposite extreme of just uh totally diminishing all your credibility by trying to look like you've got a complete disaster of a life in order to connect. You know. So yeah, it's in the name of authenticity. That's right. I'm gonna be authentic. Yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna lose your respect in two minutes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, tell 17 stories about me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then it just becomes me in a different form. It's the kind of lowly worm kind of check me out. Yeah. Aren't I humble? Yeah. Uh so but I think it that's that's not an excuse to be invulnerable.
SPEAKER_04No. And sometimes that's men aren't very good at knowing ourselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or knowing that we're that's a good point. I think sometimes us men think in different boxes. I think that's true for me. I'm in the sermon box, I'm not thinking about me at all. No. I'm unaware that I exist right now because I'm thinking about something else.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh but that's that's that's a bit of an excuse, I suppose. It's it's it's a reality, but it needs to be addressed, maybe.
SPEAKER_04And but what gets us out of that box, I think part of our sermon preparation is we're thinking, okay, well, I'm in my sermon preparation, this is what the text means. We don't mind getting out of that box for thinking what it means for the congregation. You know, we don't mind thinking about, you know, well, this woman really needs to see this this part of the message. Hope she's there on something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I think that that when you're one of the challenges for for us as preachers is that if we leave the preparation too late, then then we're pressured to get it done, and we jump to forming a message. You know, we we open our Bibles, and before we know it, we're trying to come up with our points and our main idea and our illustrations, and we haven't had time for the text to soak and to do its work in us. Yes. I remember Hadan Robinson talking about that when I studied with him, and and he said, if you preach on a Sunday and then you take Monday off or you know get depressed or whatever you do on Mondays, uh, because Monday isn't the most productive day for anyone who's preaching on a Sunday. Do email too. Yeah, just do admin or something. But but then let's say you're not going to start your sermon prep till Tuesday. He said, actually the pressure's on because the clock is ticking and it's ticking down really rather quickly. And so his suggestion was just a little thing, but he said, Why not start the Thursday before? So instead of a five-day preparation, you've got a ten-day and just take a day, every in his case, he said every Thursday, where you just do the initial stuff. Just do some initial work in the text, some initial praying about it, maybe look at some commentaries, whatever you do. Um you have to form the message, don't get in the zone of that message because you're preaching a different one this Sunday if you're a regular preacher.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So just do that on the Thursday, yeah, and then get back to what you're doing for this Sunday. But it has that chance to kind of ruminate and to become part of your meditation, part of your thinking, your prayer life, and then by the time you get back to it the following Tuesday, it's not, oh quick, I've got to get a message. It's it's got time to work in you. And I think that's important for us as preachers, because then when we've been done over by the text, when God has done some work with us, we're more sensitive to the work he's gonna do in others. Yes. And we can also show that, even if we don't explicitly mention it, we can there could be an authenticity, even to the way we're handling this passage, because it's already worked in us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So the spiritual life of the preacher is very important. The expectation for the preacher very often is you know, he's the guy who's got it most together in the whole church, and then the preacher can believe that hype and then not want to let the mask slip in front of people. What should a preacher be thinking instead?
SPEAKER_02Well, I suppose I'm just thinking off the top of my head here a little bit, but but I suppose, you know, I I've I've heard the reference to to worship leaders. Right. You know, a worship leader, wrong wrong label, they're a lead worshipper.
SPEAKER_04Right, yes. Because Christ is the ultimate worship leader.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's kind of true. But but to say, not I'm a worship leader, I play the guitar or whatever, and I'm up here and I'm leading and you lot of following, but actually I'm one of you, I'm the lead worshiper, um, let me help us by leading the way in this. Right. What if the preacher is the lead responder?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, so if I'm the lead responder to God's word, then suddenly my vulnerability or my weakness is not an absolute disqualifier because I'm not the peak of the pyramid, the top guy. I I'm the person who's at the front of the line, maybe, maybe not. But I'm I'm in this moment, I'm the one that's leading us into this text, and I'm the one that's leading us in hopefully being responsive to what God is saying to us through it. And so maybe in that sense.
SPEAKER_04That's very good. Yeah. And so you can be the chief of sinners in that in that sense. If if yeah, if the text is calling in to respond in the in that repentance, then lead in repentance.
SPEAKER_02And obviously, there, you know, there may be a case where you are the chief of sinners and you shouldn't be preaching. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, in which case, deal with it. You know, get talk to people and talk to your elders and deal with it. But yeah, but often it it it's not that we've committed gross sin during the week and then you know repented and we're fine on Sunday. It it's just the kind of muckiness of of life, you know, where we haven't trusted in the way that we should have, or we you know, we've kind of got caught up in other things and we feel bad about the way we've responded to others. And and if we share that with people, they'll go, Oh, you're human like me. Yeah, yeah. Not, oh my goodness, you're disqualified. Yeah. You know, so it's it's that kind of chief of sinners, not not in a kind of trite way, but actually in a in a real way that we see the oh, of all people, I should I'm spending six hours in the Bible passage and studying it and adjouring God, and then I respond to my kids like that, oh God, what is wrong with me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm the worst of all men, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's not that I have actually been the worst of all men, sure, but you've got a greater awareness of of the the the full from the glorious presence of the Lord to plank is in your eye and there might be specks in others, but uh yeah, my my wife and I, Emma and I went up to Birmingham recently and and she sort of told her story, which is full of weakness and vulnerability, and and very honest. And a woman from Vietnam came uh to the front of uh uh the place at the end of the of the talk and and then started confessing to things that were very different to Emma's struggles, and yet she just said, I've been coming to this church for a while, and everyone talks about this this need for grace, but I don't see anyone actually needing grace. We like we like the idea of grace, we just don't like anyone to actually need it. And and she just she began crying, she was heaving, she was bent double in the end, and um she um she gave her life to the Lord right there, and her husband came forward and he was like, What's going on? And he he started confessing, and it was just it was yeah, this instance I guess of Emma being sort of the the lead vulnerable person, yeah, and and I just say it all the time, just sort of opening people up in an incredible way.
SPEAKER_02And that's very different from condemning and pressuring people as if we've got it all together. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's always the shortcut that we'll default to. I think whether it's in a in a pastoral ministry setting or even evangelistically, it's it feels like a quicker way to get there to beat people up.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02And as a parent, it's a quicker way to get there to just use the force of you know my bigger frame and my bigger volume voice, and my I have the authority to remove privileges and all this kind of stuff. I can just force conformity on my children, but I'm not changing them. I'm just making them frustrated, you know. And it's it's that thing with preaching. We can do that same thing that I'm just gonna pressure you to conform. It's so different.
SPEAKER_04So, what do you do? Hypothetical situation, obviously, but it's it's Sunday morning, and the children haven't been perfectly obedient in getting to church on Sunday, and uh you know, it's been just imagine. And it's been a nightmare journey to church, and you get out there and your shoulders are up around your ears, and you get out of the car, and morning, morning. You know. What what do you do in that moment as you're getting into church, as you're getting yourself ready to preach?
SPEAKER_02Well, I've got no answer to that. That's why we meet in the afternoon at our church. No, I I think if if it's been if if that is The culmination of a whole week of mess, then it's a bit late. Yes, that something should have been dealt with before then. But I can I'll I'll if I'm preaching in the morning, I'll often go out before breakfast. If I'm at home, I'm gonna be distracted, especially Sundays because of the whole spiritual warfare thing. I'm gonna be distracted into something else, watching something else, or reading something else. And so I'll typically go out and I'll just preach through my message in the car. Not while I'm driving. I can't do that, it's just slightly risky. But I've got a favorite little parking spot where I'll go and I'm literally facing a wall. Okay. You guys I'm not distracted by anything. If they put a poster there, it's gonna ruin my life. But I just go there and I park and I preach, and I can those are some special times. Sometimes preaching it through out loud, I hear the message and God does work in me that hasn't happened during the preparation. And sometimes I'm like, oh Lord, I'm scared now because that was that was great for me. Not saying it was great, but it it just felt so oh that was that was Lord, please let that come out again later. Uh so that can be a really, really precious time, and then I go home, and then there's the kind of the pressure and the tension, and you know, kids and breakfast, and Sundays, you know, are always worse than any other day for some reason. But relatively speaking, even if if my you know shoulders wrap around my ears, it it's it's just an hour or two that that needs to get dealt with before I go preach. Yeah. Yeah. And so go off into another room and or go to your wife or you know, confess your sin, do what do whatever you need to do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's happened more than once. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But you've thought about and got out ahead of that. That's that's interesting. Okay, finally, what so what's what's the devotional life of a preacher? What what should that look like?
SPEAKER_02The devotional life of the preacher is there's there's so many ways to kind of try to define that that are you must do this and don't do this and do do this and don't do that, as if it's some kind of formula. But if it's if it's the responsiveness of the heart of the preacher to the love of God revealed in Christ, uh so it's the bride of Christ responding to his lead, it's the son of God or child of God responding to the father's desires, it's he's the initiator. And I think often we view the devotional life as our initiative, like I'm going to sit down and I'm going to get my Bible. But he's initiating and he has initiated. I get to respond to that. Um and sometimes it's it's glorious, sometimes it feels really kind of empty, sometimes it's really tender. You know, where it's just a really still, small whisper of sense that God's just lifting your heart to him. I had that on the way here. I was kind of a bit dry, a bit tired, a bit, ugh, you know, a day of travel, and and sat on the plane, just read something and prayed and and then read some psalms, and and and it wasn't mind-blowing, it wasn't earth-shattering, but it was tender, and it was a sweet time. Um and I think there it's it's that kind of like a good marriage. It's it's it's the responsiveness to time together. It's sometimes it's an amazing date with God, sometimes it's it's just uh a brief interaction, but it's it's continually reinforcing that that ongoing relationship. Because that's what you're trying to do in preaching. You're trying to sort of not because to say because might imply that you do that in order to therefore have a preaching issue, which is not what you meant.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But but preaching then should flow out from that. Yes. Yeah. And the preaching should be that because that's the reality in the devotional life.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's what the spiritual life looks like.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the spiritual life is not merely a recognition of a forensic legal reality. You know, it's not just I stand as one forgiven, therefore I should be grateful, or therefore I should be responsible. It's no, I I'm in a relationship with Christ, and there are many times where I don't see that. But when I see that, my heart boils over because what a privilege to be united to him. And so it's yes, my sins are forgiven, and I've got a changed heart, and I've got the Spirit pointing my heart to him. The whole fullness of the new covenant should mean that that my devotional life, in quotes, is a rich experience of union with Christ, albeit with times of spiritual warfare and spiritual dryness and you know, all of those kind of things. But the reality of the union is ongoing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, I'd love to talk to you more about uh union with Christ and marriage union. I know you've written a little bit about that. We should do that sometime. We will do that, definitely. Let's let's let's have an episode on that all by itself. But uh Peter, thank you so much for spending time with us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01So that was Peter Mead uh talking to you, Glenn, at the uh in Poland recently. He's a really likable guy, isn't he? He's great.
SPEAKER_03He is he's a really great guy, and he's about eight foot tall as well. Yeah, you need to know that about Peter, and uh but uh he does he doesn't uh he doesn't make you feel small in his presence. No, he is um and he's like uh a martial arts kind of black belt and uh yeah, so man, he can he can handle himself, this guy. But um just be nice back. Just be easy. But absolutely convinced that uh the gospel really is a a heartwarming message that God is a God who captures hearts uh and that if we want to be involved in Christian ministry, it really is about hearts to hearts. You know, heart to heart with God and a heart to heart with others. So um I just find it very, very refreshing to to speak to him and and um yeah, I hope others have been really uh encouraged by it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, excellent. So if folks wanted to catch up with him uh and perhaps follow follow more of his stuff online, where would they go?
SPEAKER_03Uh I mean one great place to go would be biblicalpreaching.net, and you can find out actually there's there's links there to all sorts of other of his social network presences. Um you can follow him on Twitter uh at Peter Mead um and uh yeah, that will link you in with all his stuff as well.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so what have we got uh coming up next week?
SPEAKER_03So next week on the Evangelist Podcast, uh we are talking to Michael Otts, um, who I've wanted to have on the show for for many years. Uh but he is uh a great evangelist who is concentrating mainly on student evangelism. And uh I mean he really has written the book on how to do student mission in the UK and is is just the most exceptional evangelists i in that setting, doing the the lunch bar talks, the apologetic type talks, and doing the the evening talks as well. Um but what he's also doing is pioneering that sort of stuff in Europe and in particular in Eastern Europe and seeing um yeah, seeing how people are uh are being one to Christ throughout the continent, really. And so we we talk to him about his own story, about his own evangelism, and then I sort of fire at him some questions that that get fired at him at these student events and uh and he handles them really well.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Subscribe to the Evangelist Podcast if you're not a subscriber already, and uh and then you'll get it dropped into your mobile tablet or whatever. Also, why not pick up a copy of our uh Speak Life Daily? It's uh a booklet that we produce uh every quarter and it gives us uh some good news stories from things that are happening around the world. Plus also it gives you highlights of of our ministry and and your uh calendar as well, Glenn. Um you can do that at our website, which is speaklife.org.uk. Brilliant. I think that's it for now. Speak to you next time. See ya.