Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Jonathan Carswell.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_04You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast. It's the show where we discuss all things regarding telling the good news of Jesus. I'm Andy Brinkley and I'm joined by Glenn Scrivener. How are you, Glenn?
SPEAKER_01I'm very, very well, very, very well. I uh although I did just go to a funeral, um, so that was that was quite uh sobering, but uh yeah, he knows the Lord and he's with the Lord now. So yeah, you always get that sense with funerals, don't you, that that there's someone that's sobering. There's someone in that box that's being carried by four people. They're about to bury him in the ground. Yeah. But one day he'll rise up. They used to the Puritans used to talk about the the the graves as as like God's acre, God's field. And uh we put the seed in the ground and one day he'll he'll come up better than he went down. So yeah, we praise praise the Lord for the hope of resurrection. But uh yeah. It's often uh a time when people sort of have an evangelistic opening or yeah, softness and Well, I mean when you're faced with your mortality, you're you're certainly ready to hear about the Lord who rose from the dead. Um and when you don't see your mortality, you you really do think you live forever and you really do think you're invulnerable and invincible, and um I remember listening to some very, very interesting um talks by John Baer online, B. E. H. R, if you want to look them up on YouTube on uh on our mortality and death, and and he says the biggest challenge for the gospel today is nobody sees death anymore. You know, you g you get to you get to the age of you know, I I was speaking to someone uh he was he was clearly in his late sixties, that you know, probably seventies, and and he said to me um in an evangelistic encounter a couple of a couple of weeks ago, um, that he'd just lost both parents last year. And he said, Why did God take them? And I'm thinking they must be in their nineties, his parents. And yet death hit him so hard and it almost hit him out of the blue age, you know, seventy odd. And these days you can get to seventy without losing your parents. Whereas in generations gone by you couldn't have gotten out of childhood without losing a sibling. And you know, every month there'd be someone in the in in town who would be dying and and you'd lay out the corpse in the front room and you'd s there'd be a whole ritual about death. Uh there's no such thing as let's protect the kids and not you know, you know, kids were seeing death. Everybody sees death, everybody has to experience death. And in that setting, of course you realize that you are very frail, that you are you are gonna get buried in that ground pretty soon and you need someone to raise you back up again. Yeah. Um these days death is out of sight, out of mind for people, so so funerals are very much uh places where people can learn and and confront their weakness and mortality and and hopefully hear hear some good news.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Maybe uh a topic for a future episode.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's do let's do that. Yeah, talking about death.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well I have to um uh explain that last time we said that we were gonna do um something today and we're not. It was the uh we were gonna talk about sort of mental health issues at first. Um we're gonna have to wait until next time.
SPEAKER_01That's right. The talk that I gave that I'd like to talk about is not yet available online, and so we'd like it to be available online when we talk about it so that you can listen to it. Um otherwise it might not make a lot of sense. So we'll do we'll do that next week, God willing. Uh so this week uh we've got a a great replacement. Yeah. Jonathan Carswell.
SPEAKER_04Who is Jonathan Carswell then?
SPEAKER_01Don't you know? Everyone knows Jonathan Carswell. Um so uh we've had Roger Carswell, Jonathan's dad on the show uh was that last year or maybe the year before. Um uh a great evangelist and full of enthusiasm and life and joy for the Lord. And uh uh Jonathan is one of Roger's four children, and uh he uh is now perhaps best known for um being the owner and director of uh uh ten of those. Ten of those. Ten of those. Uh a bookseller uh that also has a sort of a publishing house now, ten publishing, and uh yeah, really wanting to get the gospel out there through uh through books, through publications, through literature.
SPEAKER_04Reminds me of the sweet shop where you have ten of those, ten of those, ten of those.
SPEAKER_01Well it's exactly that. You know, as as he explains in our interview, you know, he he basically sort of ordered in bulk and uh said to his friends, why don't you, you know, if you could if you just took ten of these uh it would uh yeah, it would be uh much more economically efficient for you. And uh pretty soon the the name Ten of Those was born and then the company Ten of Those was born.
SPEAKER_04Good. Um and uh as a disclaimer, you've got several several publications through. Uh just a couple.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um Yeah, so I mean uh because they really want to um publish evangelistic material, which is not always the case. Um very interesting in me um talking to different publishers about evangelistic material and just how rare it is for publishers to actually invest in evangelistic books. I I love reading evangelistic books. But most of most publishers kind of think, oh, no one wants to read evangelistic books. Either you're a non-Christian and you don't want one, or you're a Christian and you don't want to read an evangelistic book because you don't need it. Um which I d I I could never understand that, because that's like my favourite thing to read. Uh of course I know the gospel, but I'd like to hear how this guy explains the gospel, because that helps me. So I I'm clearly out of touch with the market. But um Jonathan Carswell, uh yeah, was a great supporter for for 321 and then a great supporter for Four Kinds of Christmas, uh which uh they published for us last year. So yes, disclaimer, uh personal interest here.
SPEAKER_04Good. Before we go into the interview, uh we want to sort of share our the opportunity that's open here in September for the Union Learning Hub, which is uh like a postgraduate theology uh hands-on uh extravaganza What else is it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, so you can either be a student with us um doing the graduate diploma in theology that's uh um through Union, uh which is sort of what the the West rebrand was. Wales Evangelical School of Theology has been sort of reborn as Union and uh offering um degree-level theological training all the way from a graduate diploma up to a PhD. Um and uh we're offering uh that graduate diploma here as a uh a learning hub here in Eastbourne. Would you like to come and study with us? We're starting in September and it's a two-year course. We uh in our hub we meet on Mondays, and uh, if you sort of uh give a day a week to those lectures and a day and a day or a day and a bit to study uh in the rest of those twenty-two weeks throughout the year that we're holding the course for. Um over the course of two years you get your graduate diploma, which um adds up if you want to keep going to a BA, it adds up to an MA, and and on you keep going. So there's opportunities to study with us starting in September, and uh also an opportunity perhaps to join us as an apprentice. If people want to come and study, and alongside the study, uh join me in various evangelistic ministries. Um why not get in touch and uh we'd love to start a conversation about a possibility of a two-year apprenticeship also starting in September, running alongside the training opportunity. Our summer edition.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And we've released an update video of uh all the different things that we've been involved with. It's got a couple of uh uh stories there of how people have been touched by the ministry. We'll embed it on the this episode show notes today. Um but if you want to sign up for that to get the Speak Life Daily and uh just be in touch with us through email. Um you can do that from from the website. So just visit speaklife.org.uk and get our daily encouragements. Okay, well, I think it's time.
SPEAKER_01It's time. It's time.
SPEAKER_04Let's bring Jonathan on.
SPEAKER_01Okay, here he comes. I'm at Bible by the beach in the ten of those van where all the magic happens with Jonathan Carswell. Welcome to the Evangelist Podcast. Thank you very much. Thanks for having us. Yeah, pleasure, real pleasure. Now, how many Bible by the beaches have you been to, do you think?
SPEAKER_02Oh, uh I think this is probably my fifth or sixth, maybe, something like that. Goodness me.
SPEAKER_01And you're you're now a feature of it, such that you you even get applauded in all your uh notices. People are desperate, aren't they? So um, so let's go back to the beginning, Jonathan. You uh you grew up in uh in Yorkshire. Yep, Leeds, uh born and bred. Yes, yeah. Okay. That was home. Okay, with a brother and sister, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um two sisters and a brother, yeah. So um yeah, our youngest of four, I think my parents, uh, when they had me thought we really have to stop. So um they did.
SPEAKER_01Forthwith. Yes. Okay. And uh so you grew up in uh the household of of an evangelist, Roger Carswell. Yeah. And um was he away a lot?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he was. Um, so he um before I was born was um an RE teacher and was doing evangelistic work uh in the evenings and weekends as uh as time allowed. And um when the year I was born, he went full-time uh as an itinerant evangelist and um was travelling the country ten months of the year, really. Not in one block, it was uh away for ten days, two weeks, sometimes three weeks, back for a couple of days, and away again. So um yeah, it certainly made um life interesting. It's all I've known. So people often say, Oh, was that weird or no, that's uh that was just life um as as I knew it. And um, but yeah, he was away a lot. It was um it was sometimes like growing up in a single parent household. Um but it brought lots of fun and adventure and stories as well along the way, so it's um yeah, that's all I've known.
SPEAKER_01And some people they get to sort of teenage years and you hear about people kind of resenting their parents in ministry and that sort of thing. Was it was there any that kind of feeling for you?
SPEAKER_02Um so I became a Christian when I was 16, and I think at that point uh things changed dramatically for me uh because I began to understand um personally rather than just head knowledge why Dad was doing it. And so in terms of later teens, it wasn't an issue. Um it's funny, people have asked me that before. I think um Dad spent a lot of time and effort ensuring we uh uh all four kids uh knew um he he loved us and cared for us despite being away from home. So there was never any um doubts about that. Um but it it w there were times it was hard. Um, you know, you pick pick for the school football team or whatever, dad isn't there to to watch, and um uh those times are are hard and you just miss him as a person, you know. I I love interacting uh with dad and um I think at the time I d it wasn't that I resented it, I just it was hard, and um and sometimes you just wanted your dad to be around. And um yeah. But like I say, it was all I all I knew, and so um you you just got on with life and um I I looking back now, I'm very grateful to God that um uh I've just got a f fabulous mum who really held our family together, humanly speaking, uh, but did it spiritually speaking by by praying. I I'll never forget um each morning coming down for school about ten past seven, and uh mum was uh mum was always in her nighty on the left hand side of the sofa with her Bible open praying. Wow. And um that will be probably my abiding memory of my mum, really, and that um uh she was a she is a prayerful woman and uh yeah, I think that made a big difference.
SPEAKER_01A praying mother is an amazing thing, very powerful thing. And older siblings, I mean, did they play a part in your Christian story at all? Um uh no, not really. Um if you're listening, Ben.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for nothing. Um so uh my uh eldest sister Emma and the seven years gap between us, so she was really kind of um going out um with with friends and stuff while I was just kind of um uh um at junior school and things. So there's a bit of distance there. Ben and uh uh and I played a lot of sport in the garden, and and that's how we connected. Uh when I became a Christian, Hannah and I became very, very close, and um uh we we speak most days now, and um I mean we we've got a good relationship all together, but um uh age has perhaps meant our paths have gone in different ways. My brother's uh now an evangelist here in New Zealand, and so um that adds complications in terms of uh communication, but we all get on very well, and um but now in terms of spiritually, I think you know, naturally we heard the gospel umpteen times, and to my shame, actually, I was on a a camp once, and I think the leaders just presumed I was a Christian because Christian parents and all the rest. And I gave my test me on this camp, but I wasn't a Christian, um but I just knew all the things to say. Wow. And um dear, you look back now and you think, oh dear, but um What did you invent?
SPEAKER_01Did you invent a a life in drugs and crime?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah. Um no, just the you know, the classic um uh sort of cliches, uh perhaps, or well not not clichés, but commonly said things in testimonies. I just sandwiched them all together and uh seemed legitimate.
SPEAKER_01But um And did you did you find yourself sort of believing your testimony as you s as you said it?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that's the interesting thing. I my I had a bit of a split personality in terms of um when I was with Christians, I could act as a Christian when I was at school. I did everything possible to show I wasn't a Christian really. And um that actually is very dangerous, I think, because you can believe the lie that uh you're telling yourself or or or you're telling others that um yeah, I believe this and it's uh it's changing my life and and etcetera. It wasn't, as I say, until I was 16 on a sports camp in Holland that I really trusted the Lord and um uh and asked him to forgive me uh come into my life and change me. And I'm just grateful for the following two years I left school that year, um, knowing I wouldn't be able to make a stand at the school that I was at with the friends that I uh with the group of friends that I was with. So I left school really um to make a stand as a Christian, though academically it probably wasn't going to be very good for me, and um, but spiritually, um it it things really came alive in the right.
SPEAKER_01So the camp in Holland, was there anything particular about that that you remember that that struck you that that made you convinced of Jesus' lordship?
SPEAKER_02Um I knew all about well I never yeah, I I knew I knew about the Lord Jesus, I knew what he'd done for me. I never doubted it wasn't I never doubted it wasn't true. Is that too many negatives? Um yes, that's right. And um uh um but it just wasn't real for me. The last night uh of that uh of that camp um there was a talk on sin, and I that really hit home for me. Um I'd not long been in a sports um accident where I'd ruptured my cartilage in my knee. I was on this sports holiday in Holland cycling on the back of a tandem with my leg in the air while somebody else cycled, um, and a lot of questions came into my mind of okay, what what are you doing with life? Where is this all going? And what are you gonna do with Jesus? And um I just honestly feel that the the Holy Spirit worked in my life that night, and uh though I'd heard it hundreds of times before God was good enough to to open my eyes, uh not just theoretically but but spiritually, and uh and that that was the change. Now there's been lots of ups and downs since then, it's not been plain sailing at all. Um, but I thank God for that for that day where he opened my eyes.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting that they would finish with a talk on sin.
SPEAKER_02Usually you sort of you start the talk on sin in early and then yeah, but uh well I I don't doubt that there were um talks on sin previously. But um sin the whole day. Whether um whether it was all just sin or whether that was just the thing that really hit me, and um but I I vividly remember I what am I gonna do with my sin? Of which you know, like the psalmist that my sin was always before me, and I you know I I knew my I was simple.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. And so so you left school age 16, is that right?
SPEAKER_02Or yeah, I left uh I left school and I went to an FE college and I did my A levels at an FE college, which was great for me um because uh well not necessarily educationally, but it's um I I think I did about 12 hours a week. It was like being at university as a 16-year-old. Yeah, and back then the government gave you all sorts of grants for doing it. So I I lived the life of Riley, but um uh it was great. I was involved in uh in doing open air work, even as a 16-year-old. I think, oh dear, what but um so I did that in my lunch hour, um praying desperately. My friends from college wouldn't see me, but they they often did. Um uh but I think also in that period my quiet time um really came alive, and um I I still remember I r I uh read through Warren Wearsby's With the Word, where he he does a devotion on every chapter of the Bible, and I read through it twice in those two years, and um that I would say was was a really in God's kindness a real foundation for me and um so yeah, uh it was a good couple of years. Yeah. I look back at them fondly.
SPEAKER_01And giving you a love for a a biblical resource there as well. Yeah, okay. And then end of FE College, what is it?
SPEAKER_02Effie College, I then um did a uh gap year with some time in Liverpool and some time in uh South Manchester, a place called Cheadlehume and um or uh Stockport really, and um uh gap year doing youth work and uh then I went off to uh Durham and studied uh combination of theology and youth work and had three great years there, really. Um somehow got out with a degree. I think um I must have paid them a lot. About four weeks into term, my tutor called me into his office and said, uh Jonathan, um, you know, doing okay, and um uh can you just tell me what you got in your A-level results? So I said, um that's what I said. He said, Oh yeah, that's what I've got here in front of me. We should never have let you in. I said, Oh right, okay. But he said, if you keep your head down, um you can you can stay. And uh thought, oh right, okay. Um and so I kept my head down somewhat, at least until second year. And um blinded their eyes together.
SPEAKER_01Somehow, somehow, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I you know, I don't know, I don't want to super spiritualise it or whatever, but I do think God, in each step, um in a way that I just don't deserve, seems to have honoured certain things. Now I I I look back and think I should never have got into Durham, um uh particularly with the A-level results that that I got.
SPEAKER_01Bees can look like bees.
SPEAKER_02Yes, because they stand similar. And um but I just wondered, was God honouring my decision to leave school um for the sake of standing for him? And I I don't know, maybe I'm thinking far too highly myself, but I d all I know is God has been very kind in opening doors that uh should never have been open for me. And I I put it down to him that I got there and got out with something as well.
SPEAKER_01I had a tutor in in I did economics at university, and at the at the very end he said to me, uh um I got the lowest grade possible to get through this particular course. He said, Well, you learned something about economics. You got the grade at minimum cost, which is true. Which is most true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So at the end of Durham, what was next?
SPEAKER_02Uh then I went to be a youth pastor um for three years in Northern Ireland, um uh a time which I look back in in a couple of ways, and there was great fruit, and um again God was very kind. There were some big mistakes that I made uh during my time there, and um but while I was there um God um was graciously building something that's now known as Ten of Those. And um uh yeah it's uh I look back and there's some big lessons learnt and um but it was a it was a wonderful time in um me beginning to kind of um cut my cloth at uh doing evangelistic work with these teenagers but also beginning to to to get into uh selling books. Um looking back in hindsight, um I went in it too young and um too too fresh and naive and without the right support around me. But um uh I can say more about that perhaps another time. But um uh but yeah, I began selling Christian books while I was uh there, just first of all from a cupboard um uh by the stairs and then into my office and then it grew into a warehouse and um from there it grew.
SPEAKER_01But um that's amazing. But but but supposedly I I guess from Durham you were thinking pastoral ministry of some sort, youth ministry of some sort.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I never wanted to be a pastor. Um I um my big passion was to work with young people. I'd seen the effect of good youth work on my own life, and I thought even if I can scrape by and do uh some sort of youth work that presents Jesus to people, um And uh that's what I'd love to do. And you know, there's there's some kids that have have uh fallen uh away, and that's that's sad from the profession they first made. But others now I I had a lovely email from uh a girl um probably six months ago saying just to let you know um I'm going off to Bible college, I'm I'm going to um train to be a women's worker, and and uh so she was in the youth and that that's just that's delightful really to to hear of those things. And um uh but yes, I I really just wanted to work with young people and I never really saw beyond three or five years um I wasn't thinking this is what I want to achieve in life. Um but I I yeah just really enjoyed youth work presenting Jesus as clearly and as accessibly as I could uh to young people.
SPEAKER_01So okay, so you started with this selling of books that you kept under the stair. Like how did that how did that begin?
SPEAKER_02So um the back then there was uh a company called Wesley Owen, and um I was frustrated to be honest that there was so there were so many books out there, but a lot of them were were not good. In fact, worse than that, they were harmful. They were often sold next to good books, and how would you know you know what's good and what's not? And so probably very arrogantly and um self-centered, I thought, well, if I could sell good stuff in big numbers, it might have a knock-on effect to the publishers and distributors for them to think, oh well, these are the books that are selling well, we'll concentrate on these. And um so uh the ironically, I bought um three books um from Wesley Owen. Um they were Vaughan Roberts, Turning Points, Distinctives, and True Worship. And uh I bought all the stock that they that they had, maxed out my credit card, and um I basically set a target of I need to cover my cost to pay off my credit card bill by the end of the month. And um so I had just over three thousand uh across the across the title.
SPEAKER_01Three thousand pounds worth all three thousand copies.
SPEAKER_02Well, three thousand copies, and um and um I just emailed everybody I could think of saying I've got these books, they're available for two pounds, including your postage, but you have to buy ten. And um you can buy any number so long as it's over ten. And ten of those was born, really, though I didn't realise it at the time, and um they'd gone in a week. And um there's a guy called James Taylor, he was my first customer, he did a lot of help in getting in spreading the word, um, but they'd gone in a week, and then people said, Oh, can you get his other books? and it just began to grow from there.
SPEAKER_01Amazing. Amazing. And and so what was what was next for where when did it become known as Tenderlands?
SPEAKER_02So well, it was just a hobby at that stage, and that was 2006, 2007.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02By 2008, it became a company, uh the tact man was beginning to get interested. So uh it became a limited company of which we still are today, uh, but we work hard at making sure that we sustain our ministry, so we we use the money that we need for uh for our ministry, but then we we give away as much as we can, um, so that uh whether that's in resources or sub uh subsidies of books, etc. Um, so that yeah, 2008 it started, um, and that really the the the the crunch moment was when the pastor called me into his office and said um Jonathan, we can't take any more pallets of books in the church. And uh at that point I knew right, I need to decide what I'm going to do. So I left I left my job after three years uh at um at Hamilton Road and went full time with ten of those, and it was a rocky start, it was really rocky. Um ten of those couldn't um pay a salary for about nine months, and I'm grateful to friends and family for supporting me and keeping me going. Um but under God it began to grow and uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Amazing, and this is amazing for you so you've got dyslexia?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I don't read very well at all, but uh it's a it's a hard uh it's a hard slog, but I I just found in my Christian life I hadn't read a Christian book, well in fact I hadn't really read a book until I became a Christian when I was 16. And that summer I read um Rogers Day's A Man in Christ, the story of Hudson Taylor, um the Yorkshire man who went to went to China. That really began to change my life, and um and from there I wanted to um to read and get books out.
SPEAKER_01So at what stage did someone sort of sit you down and say, Okay, Jonathan, you now need vision statements and mission statements, and you now need a constitution, or you now need you know legal parameters and really do any of that now when um so I left Northern Ireland, came back to the mainland, and um uh I did need some help.
SPEAKER_02I read uh Richard Branson's um autobiography, and one thing stuck out uh from there, the rest of it was dross really, but um he said I've always tried to get people better than myself around me. And well, it was very easy for for me to find people better than myself, and what I did is I just tried to draw two or three people who had skills that I didn't have um to help me. So we brought somebody on who did some of the finance stuff and some of the legal stuff, and and um uh yeah, again, in God's kindness and goodness that's um that grew and uh uh and they helped uh grow that. But it's been very organic really. I never dreamt we so we we sold a million uh resources last year and um never thought, right, this is we're aiming for this, and we don't have it for the next five years.
SPEAKER_01But uh I was about to ask you your five-year plan, but yeah, we don't really have one.
SPEAKER_02We we have a very, very ambitious um drive, and it's that um gospel-centred Jesus pointing resources would be available to everybody anywhere in the world. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it's through ten of those, but if they're not available to somebody, then maybe ten of those can do something. So we're really trying to push in areas where it's not available. Now that may mean that places that it is currently available will help subsidize it in their sales, um, but places like France or Belgium where there's very little, I'd much rather be there than America or uh or or even Britain to be honest. Um we want to take resources where they're not, and um that's our big ambition, and uh I think we'll we'll keep trying to work towards that until the Lord returns.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and you've gotten into publishing as well, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, we do that really um we we're focusing on short books that we can do en masse at low cost, um, either to help non-readers become readers or those who aren't Christians to become Christians. That's what we're focusing on as uh as a publisher, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And very excitingly, you've uh taken on Dan Rackham in the last weeks, really.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Big step for us in in many ways.
SPEAKER_01It was just for the listeners, he um you might have heard on a previous uh evangelist podcast, he's the guy behind the John Lewis uh Christmas advertisement, and he's got his own YouTube channel for uh where he's uh working in Liverpool, but a a great gospel man and a great producer of videos. Yeah, you've you've taken him on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we just felt uh what you know we want to be communicating the gospel effectively to people who are listening or watching or whatever. So, how do we do that? Well, one of the big ways is through uh media like this. We um had thought of it, we just didn't know who the right person was, we saw what Dan did at the Christmas thing and thought, right, you got quarter of a million views there at least. Wow, we'd love to reach quarter of a million people. So we said to Dan, we don't know how it'll work, but come and join us, we'll we'll pay you so you don't need to be doing um secular work to subsidise it, which is what he was doing, which was taking a big chunk of his time. So we said, right, well, we'll try and fund you through the sales of uh of books for you to put out free to use resources, and um it it will take a couple of months to get going, though. I think we're gonna release one uh this week for the Queen's uh 90th birthday, uh, and then there's one coming on the cup final. But the idea is for for lots of videos that different people can use on social media or watch in church or whatever, we want to try and communicate the gospel in a way that uh connects and then people can share and like it, etc.
SPEAKER_01And it's like free to use, so what's what's the financial plan there, man?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, it's bonkers. Um we decided it when the finance people were away. Um no, um we've been given much, and uh with those who've been given much as much responsibility, we just think um we we are seeing this as part of our giving, and if it's a s of service to the church, well praise the Lord. And um I I just hope that uh Dan is a cracking guy, and uh he can you know in terms of his passion for the gospel and communicating that that's what we wanted, and so we're gonna give it a go, we'll give it a couple of years. If it's uh if it's useful for people, then great. Um keep buying books if uh you want to see videos because that's what's helping it. But yeah, it doesn't make economic sense, but ministry rarely does, and um uh we're we're you know finances are are important but um uh people's souls are more important.
SPEAKER_01So how have you seen as you know, with the with the the beating heart of an evangelist, here you are selling books and and uh and resources. How have you seen the the use of those resources actually serving in in people becoming Christians?
SPEAKER_02It's wonderful. I mean, for the number of resources that go out, you you do sometimes think, oh, is this really worth it? Is anyone um you know reading them, etc.? But you do hear of stories that we're at Bible by the beach, as you said at the start, and um uh I had a lady come up to me on Friday, she said uh I've been able to give some books away, and she was telling me about the response from her neighbours and friends that she'd that I mean that is brilliant on two levels. One, it's really exciting her about evangelism, two, she's reaching out to her friends who are then reading them, and um we we do get stories throughout the year, um, maybe 40, maybe 50 of people who say, you know, that that changed my life, or I've been able to give it to my friend, then now coming along to church and they're exploring Christianity. We get maybe three or four where somebody says, you know, actually I I I became a Christian because somebody gave me this book, or or they tell the story of a friend who's become a Christian. And our prayer is that as these books um point people to Jesus, they change lives, whether it's um them growing as a Christian or reaching out to those who don't yet know uh Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. And um it I just find even what hearing one of those stories gives you enough energy for about the next eight months because it it's worth it. And I would um I I I don't think I'd want to be doing anything else than than trying to point people to Jesus like this because um it's exciting to see how it works.
SPEAKER_01And there's a real organic kind of gospel uh flow to this that as you resource Christians with shareable books, yeah, then actually you're putting into the hands of the believers things that they can use with non-Christians, which is similar with the the media stuff. So so as Dan produces shareable media, then suddenly I as a Christian have something to share on my Facebook wall instead of the cat videos, and then suddenly they go out. And actually, you know, you might not hear the stories of what's going out, but you are putting into the hands of Christians. So, you know, it's the Ephesians 4, you're equipping God's saints for their works of service. Yeah. Uh and because you do it at the prices that you do it, then how much more shareable is it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's the thing. Well, we may never hear of what what's happening, but I I we do it in faith, don't we? We we we we've been given a command to go and uh uh and make disciples. Well, okay, I'll crack on and do that. And um the the results, they're the Lord's work and uh uh and yeah, leave it with him really. But so good.
SPEAKER_01So what's exciting you at the moment with Ten of those?
SPEAKER_02Um well I think that that Dan's appointment is is very exciting. I think I a um it's exciting to see people getting the idea of okay, I won't just buy one. I could buy four here and give three away to my friends. That that's great when they when they get that bug. Um I think I I feel honoured that the Lord has built a really strong team at ten of those who all believe in what we're doing. And we have devotions every morning, and um, sometimes it can be a slog first thing on a Monday morning, but really it's a real privilege to work with this team of really gifted guys who are passionate about the same thing. That that excites me, and it excites me to uh to see them kind of um developing their own sort of aspect within 10 of those and getting others excited about uh about books. Um I think what we're publishing is is exciting, uh whether it's on discipleship stuff or or evangelistic stuff, and there's some new things in the in the pipeline that uh keep keep your eyes peeled for. But um nothing beats hearing of how somebody's life has been impacted. And uh yeah, like I say, that that keeps you motoring for a long time.
SPEAKER_01So okay, this is the 21st century chart, and no one's reading books anymore. Books are dead, right? What do you say to that?
SPEAKER_02Um well if so, there's a lot of silly people because they keep buying books. Um so if they are dead, I just don't believe that. I um I think I I cannot explain what it is about a book, but there is something that keeps people wanting to go back to a book. I think as Christians we are people of the book, aren't we? We're people who uh who want to be in in God's word, the Bible, and um I think from that then flows a desire to to read and learn and grow. So I think re Christians read for a different purpose to to what you might do if you're just um you know reading on the beach or whatever. So with regards to e-books, for example, that's worked very well for fiction and and these sorts of things. But when a Christian reads, I think they read to learn, they read read to grow. And therefore, I again don't know what it is, a book seems to do more for them to help with that than a Kindle or an e-book. Now, I read I read um physical, I read um digital, it's um I do whatever's convenient for me at the time. Um but ultimately paper seems to last. I think uh for us, particularly with the sharing, you can't really share a uh a digital book, whereas passing a book on something um in terms of value, I think, about that. I was uh I had my haircut um the other day, you might think I need to get it finished, but um and being able to chat to the guy and then you know offering something, yeah. I just yeah, I can't get oh do you want a Kindle, you know. Um so I think evangelistically there's nothing that beats it at the moment. Um but equally, you know, if that's a DVD or a I I don't really care, point them to Jesus in somehow and but I've I found a book or a tract or a leaflet is is a good medium for that.
SPEAKER_01So if someone's listening and they say, Look, I'm a keen Christian and I listen to sermons online and I read the odd blog, why should I read books?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um I think it's going back to this learning and growing. Um listening to sermons is great, podcasts um like this one, um, articles, etcetera. I just think a book um goes in greater detail, you can work through it perhaps a bit more slowly, uh, you can make notes and etcetera, all those sorts of things uh I think build to a growing Christian. And um, you know, the Apostle Paul, when he was uh when he was in prison, he wanted his book, well parchments, he wanted you know because it it really helps us grow as a Christian, and if we're not growing as a Christian, I think we you know something's gone wrong. We need to we need to have a look at that.
SPEAKER_01So, what would be the first steps that you'd say for someone to to get into reading?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you're not a reader, um don't panic, okay? Uh there are lots of people who are not readers. Um, there's a few tips that I would say, just read short short books as a great starter, um, and don't feel bad about that or as kind of substandard, just go at your own pace and maybe getting something short. Get something that really grabs you, okay. And uh, if that's a biography, I think biography is great, not just because they're really good stories, but to learn through those who've gone before. There's great teaching uh in biography, and things like Man in Christ that I mentioned, or The Hiding Place, the story of uh the Temboon family in the Second World War, Evidence Not Seen is another one, or Helen Rosevere. Reading those I think is great, and then just build and grow from there. And I wouldn't compare yourself against what other people are reading. It's good to set targets. Well, they do lie, or they they yeah, they buy them and they sit on their shelf, and it's just uh it's a trophy rather than uh reading project. But um know where you are and then say, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna be uh committed to this. I think commitment and discipline is really crucial though. Um somebody once said if you read for 20 minutes a day, you'll read 15 books a year, and I think that is true, but only if you're doing it every day, because you get quicker and the discipline helps you then uh then progress. But um start small but build up and and be realistic, and I think you'll find that that that books will really begin to to take a major part in your Christian growth. I really do.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. So, what are some of the books that we should be getting at the moment? What's what's out now that will be feeding us as Christians?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, well, I think um yeah, the the there's a few. Don't move away from the classics. Some of the biographies I've just mentioned have been out for years. There's nothing kind of there's nothing wrong at all going back to those sorts of things. Um, Tim Chester and Mike Reese have just done uh one called uh Why the Reformation Still Matters. I think that's a very important book. Next year is the um 500th anniversary of Luther, uh nailing it the um the thing to the doors. So um to be aware of that, but the doctrines they work through and then how that impacts and changes uh your Christian life. So that's well worth uh looking at. Um uh Kevin Deo's done a little one called Amaze Them with God. I think if you're thinking about how can I reach others for Christ, you you've got to read that. It's called Amaze Them with God, it's just a a a short one. Um there's one that um David Gooding and John Lennox have done called Key Bible Concepts, and they work through, I think from memory it's 18 doctrine, uh different doctrines, maybe 16. Uh they're each very manageable, um, but um and fairly um uh uh simple but not simplistic. They they get you digging around in scripture, and I think to equip somebody with sort of the building blocks of okay, what is my what is my life built on? Uh what are the doctrines of the Bible? Uh things like uh faith, justification, salvation, those sorts of things. And they're they're long words that we think, um, you know, do I know what they mean? But this book is a really helpful, um, helpful one. And then uh another one, it's kind of a medium-sized one, it's um it's similar to the the the Lennox book. It's um by Warren Wearsman, it's going to be called the The Little Book of Big Words, and it it goes through all these big words of uh of the Bible and says, Okay, what are they? What do they mean? And how do they change Christian life? And it it's superb. Uh the uh guys in the office who are working through it, um, one of them emailed me this weekend to say, Um, this book is amazing. I'm already thinking uh making a list of people I'm gonna give it to. So uh that's uh that's a strong commendation from the team because they see a lot of books, they don't say that about every book, can I assure you? So uh yeah, there's a little taster. Good. So what can we be praying for for ten of us? Yeah, thank you. I think um what we want to do is we want to stand for truth and do it with integrity. And uh that um to break that down uh really works its way out in a in a number of ways. What we sell, we want to sell things that that hold to the Bible, not in a narrow-minded kind of um one one size fits all, but in a way that we do stand for truth, and if we don't, everything else falls. So we want stuff that holds the Bible. Though there may be different ways of expressing that and uh different kind of uh angles and facets of that, but truth uh is central, and uh uh that is tough because there are literally uh hundreds of thousands of resources we could be selling. So thinking through that, um so it truth, but then doing it with integrity because uh because we're a business as well as a ministry, and you know, sometimes the lines are blurred and money's involved, and um just when somebody says, Oh, should I should I get this book, thinking through, well, yeah, should they, you know, not just to make the sale, is this the right book for them and those sorts of things. So holding to truth and do it with integrity. Our philosophy really is if things go belly up and we stick to those two things, well that's fine, it's in the Lord's hands. If we move away from truth or we or we have a lack of integrity and things go go wrong, we've only ourselves to blame, really. And so that's what that would be a big prayer point for me personally, if I may, um big question is of how much um should I be involved in evangelistic speaking? And uh the books uh take all my time, um, but I I have a an increasing burden to be speaking evangelistically, and I'm working with um some guys at 10 of those and um beyond of just thinking through how how could we perhaps combine these things. I I've no plans to leave ten of those at all, but is there a way that we could combine these and uh we'll we'll see what happens.
SPEAKER_01Well that's intriguing. The evangelistic preaching just drop that in at the end. Yeah. Yeah, that's right, okay. On the next episode, we've talked to each other about it. Um so yes, you're you're getting opportunities to go around and speak a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've I've um yeah, I I took a little break for various reasons and then yeah, um began sort of taking invitations, and those invitations are increasing. Uh when people invite you back, they they've either forgiven you or forgotten you, and uh I seem to be getting invited back, so they must have done one of those two things. But it's just making me wonder I have a growing sort of ache in my heart. I wish I could be um preaching the gospel more regularly, um, but not leaving ten of those uh at all, I think that's um that is certainly uh uh uh um etched on my heart, and I've no plans to to leave that. But we're looking at ways that we can um combine those two things and be doing them and uh just praying for wisdom of what's right and I don't just want to do it because I can or because you know I've mimicked other people or whatever. I've learned the lesson of of that uh testament from uh from all those years ago. You know, it is easy just to say the right things. I don't want to be doing that, I want to do it because uh this is what the Lord wants, and uh so we'll see.
SPEAKER_01Okay, stay tuned. Stay tuned.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we're really interested.
SPEAKER_01Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for spending time with us. For asking us, and uh perhaps we'll see you again on the Evangelist Podcast. Thanks.
SPEAKER_04So, Glenn, that was you and Jonathan having a talk uh at uh Bible by the beach recently.
SPEAKER_01We were in his van, actually. We were we were in the ten of those, well, one of the many ten of those uh vans which which looked very very lived in. Okay. Jonathan does a lot of miles in that uh in that van and uh yes, he eaten a lot of meals.
SPEAKER_04So uh you can just visit uh tenofthose.com to visit the uh ten of those website. And uh they've got lots of great resources.
SPEAKER_01A couple of dodgy ones, but mostly good stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So Glenn, uh just um tell us what you you're up to soon.
SPEAKER_01Oh, what am I up to? Uh I am uh going out of the country, going to visit some friends in Belgium for a couple of days next week, and then when I get back, I'm at the London Men's Convention. So that'll be fun. So September, not September, what am I talking about? Saturday, the 21st of May, uh at the Royal Albert Hall. Uh there'll be a whole bunch of guys. So if you're a guy and uh anywhere near London, it'd be great to see you at the London Men's Convention. And uh I'll be doing a little poem there with a uh yes, with a video backdrop. Um and uh yeah, so lots of sort of news footage in the background of what I'm talking about. So I really need to learn this poem because yeah, you don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to get it wrong.
SPEAKER_04Um terrorists with a picture of the queen behind them, all of that.
SPEAKER_01There's all sorts of things that could go wrong. Um pray for that. And then I'm off to Poland to the European Leadership Forum. Um so that'll be good, and then back and uh yeah, keeping keeping on riding the 321 Evangelistic course. We're gonna be refilming that this summer. So um, yeah, various things to various irons in the fire.
SPEAKER_04Well, as I say, next uh uh hopefully next time we'll have the interview uh talk about mental health that uh we did hopefully that will be ready by next time. Uh but for now, see you later. See you later.