Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Evangelist Josh Williamson.
SPEAKER_05The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_06Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. It's uh been a few weeks, hasn't it, Glenn, since we've produced enough.
SPEAKER_02Why did you look at me like that? Guilt-induced thing look like that. Yes, no, we we haven't uh haven't done a podcast in a couple of weeks. Um so yes, we we've still been busy doing lots of stuff, getting out and about.
SPEAKER_06The last one we did was about the Easter video.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And uh we've you've been travelling around quite a bit, haven't you, too? Yeah. Recap sort of first where you've been.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I've been a number of different places. Where have I been? I've been up to across to Southampton and uh preached at KCC Church there. And I've been up to Wednesbury, up in the West Midlands, and uh done uh a weekend of training for guys there. And then last night uh I was up in London at an event that we're gonna talk about in the future, but um I thought it was a really uh interesting way of preaching the gospel. We we spoke about the gospel and mental health and actually got a lot of non-Christians who were interested, um, who came to this sort of event who wouldn't necessarily come to another kind of Christian event. And the tone of the whole thing was interesting because we're talking about suffering, we're talking about hard times, the dark night of the soul. And so the people were in in one sense very open actually to hearing about comfort. Um so sort of trying to preach the gospel into that situation, but we'll uh perhaps in a future episode, you know, talk about that particular event and how people might be able to replicate that. But um, yeah, so I've been busy.
SPEAKER_06And uh we've got Fiber by the Beach coming up this weekend. Yeah. And uh you're gonna be doing some things for that. You're taking the evening. Yes, and the evening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that'll be good, and doing uh one or two other things, and my wife Emma's gonna do some stuff as well. So yeah.
SPEAKER_06Good. Well, uh on the podcast today we've got uh Josh Williamson, somebody that you've met before. Yes. He's an Australian. Yes. He's gotta be a good guy. Gotta be. Yeah. Um tell us how you came to meet Josh to be.
SPEAKER_02Uh I think I've mentioned it on the on the podcast, but I don't really sort of expand on it. But we um uh at a Roger Carswell Association of Evangelists meeting uh in uh Wimbledon in South London. Um yes, that was the first time I met Josh. And uh yes, he's a very impressive guy and uh uh liked him straight away. And so uh it's been really interesting to keep contact with him and and see what he's up to. Um, put it on Twitter and Facebook and YouTube and uh we should put on the on the show notes uh how to get in uh in touch with him. But yes, I I certainly follow him on Twitter and Facebook and and uh those channels are very encouraging. Uh so if uh yes if you're in any way uh wanting to be a quick as an evangelist, I'd very uh very much recommend uh following him on social media. And uh and we just had a a really great chat about his life story, his uh his testimony, and and how he got into evangelism. And how he got arrested. How he got arrested. Yes, you might you might have heard of Jack. And maybe the the pennies dropping. Oh, is he that guy who up in Scotland? Yes. He is and uh and we'll get into that uh a little bit about uh street preaching and the law and the police and how to handle that and uh and his reflections on that on that whole episode.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we're gonna listen to it uh in two parts. We're gonna have the first part um a bit more about uh him and his background, and then next time we're gonna uh listen to a bit more about open air cam campaigners, is it? That's right, that's right.
SPEAKER_02Yes, he's the director in Queensland of Open Air Campaigners. Um and yeah, a lot of wisdom on not only street preaching but also evangelistic preaching more broadly and and uh how evangelists can raise their game and how every Christian can be part of the task of witnessing for Christ. So, yeah, a lot more about uh Josh himself and his own experiences in this first episode, and then some really great wisdom. Um tune in uh for the next episode when when he talks uh a lot more about what he tends to do in Brisbane, but uh also what you can do, uh whether it's going out on the streets or just in personal evangelism.
SPEAKER_06Okay, well let's take a listen.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm joined on the Evangelist Podcast by Josh Williamson, uh, who is the state director and evangelist for uh open air campaigners there in Brisbane. And uh it's great to have you on the show.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, g'day, Glenn. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02Brent, we first met. When did we meet? I think it was would it have been about four years ago or something like that, uh, at an evangelist gathering in Reading, was it perhaps? Something like that?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think um I think it was at an evangelist uh like a morning tea or afternoon tea with uh Roger Carswell over in Wimbledon, wasn't it? And back in 2012.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay, yes, it was Wimbledon, yes, good one. And I remember I remember asking you what you know what brought you from Australia over to the UK, and I remember your first words were the sovereignty of God. And uh and I remember thinking to myself, I wonder whether that's his answer to every question. But uh it's a safe answer. It's a safe it's a it's a right answer. It is a right answer. Um and so yeah, we'll we'll get into a little bit about um what brought you to the UK and and things like that. Um but uh why don't we start um first of all with uh your current uh position and role. So you currently work for open air campaigners. Can you just say a little bit about uh who they are and what you do for them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um OAC Ministries started in Australia back in about 1892 when an English barrister got converted in Sydney. And uh something that this barrister was gripped with was a desire to tell people about the gospel. So he went to the streets, and because he was a uh a fine tongue in arguing, he was good in the courts, he was able to use those skills in public, and the crowds would flock to uh hear him preach. And that's how it all began on a street corner in Sydney, and from there it's now spread, and we're in thirty-four countries, I believe, worldwide. Uh my role is much more uh limited than some of the big international branches. I just look after Queensland. Uh being a branch director is just a fancy title of saying I do all the paperwork and the preaching.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh so I've got the admin work to do and just travel throughout the state um declaring the gospel, although uh God has opened up doors uh quite a bit recently to travel further afield to make known the good news.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. And what what would be distinctive about open air campaigners uh in in their way of engaging uh the public?
SPEAKER_01The distinctiveness I guess would be that OAC has a a wide variety of approaches when it comes to evangelism. Uh, one of the things that OAC actually pioneered in the 50s was using a sketchboard in open air meetings and again even in uh church meetings, where you would set up this big sketchboard, get some paints, and you'd use painting and illustration to present the gospel. And it's really just a tool to help hold people's attention.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's probably what OAC is most famous for. Yes. Um, but I mean in Australia our our uh motto is good news in good ways. So we're always looking at different uh opportunities and different uh methods to present the good news.
SPEAKER_02It is amazing what happens when when someone gets a sketchboard out and all of a sudden, you know, it does it doesn't matter if you cannot draw, if you don't have an artistic bone in your body, if you pick up a paintbrush, suddenly you are an artist, and and people stop, and and the the building up of the the the sketchboard as you sort of uh allow the message to sort of be preached through that that message really really does draw a crowd. Do you use that yourself? Do you you get out the the the paintbrush or whatever?
SPEAKER_01And um yes, I definitely get out there and use the paintbrush. The problem I face is at school there was two subjects I didn't do too well at. The first was religious education, which is a good one. I'm telling people about Jesus, and the second is art. Um, and here I am using paint and presenting the gospel. But uh if if I can use the sketchboard, I'm pretty sure anyone can. Uh my sketches are basic, but the it does draw the crowd in. People are intrigued to see what the next part of the painting is going to be. It might just be some letters, it might be a word, but it's enough to hold people's attention and um provide a visual cue to the message you're presenting.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and even in the day of sort of Xbox and uh and the internet, people people still love this kind of stuff, don't they? It's it's it's there's something sort of tactile about it, I guess. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's something amazing about it. Uh, like we do a lot of school presentations, and uh we'll often use the sketchboard in a school service. And you know, there might be 700 uh boys present, and uh this is the Xbox generation sort of thing. They're used to PowerPoint, they're used to technology, and here here's a bit of paper and paint, and every eye is locked on the board because they want to see what's going to happen next.
SPEAKER_02Yes, something about that creativity is there, very interesting. Let's let's hit reverse and let's um think about your upbringing and your your your Christian story. So, Josh, did you did you grow up in a Christian home? Did you know the gospel from an early age?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was uh grew up in a Christian home. Um both my parents were love the Lord Jesus, and uh I've been going to church for as long as I can remember. Uh the problem was I wasn't a Christian until I was in my mid-teens. So I grew up in the church, heard the gospel many times, and didn't actually believe it until I was a bit older.
SPEAKER_02What happened then?
SPEAKER_01What happened then? Uh well I went for a time where I actually started to think that the church was full of hypocrites and I didn't want anything to do with it. Um I later realized I was probably the biggest hypocrite in the church. I would be able to talk the talk and tell all the right answers and explain how things should be, but I definitely wasn't walking the walk. And uh when I was probably about 16 years old, I said that's it, I'm done with church, I want nothing more to do with, I'm not interested in going to church. Um about that time my parents started going to a new church, and uh mum was very persuasive in asking me to come. I think I only went to keep her quiet and to try and get her off my back. But as I went to church, um that that's when I have to say the sovereignty of God, God began to work upon my heart, and uh I sat in a service thinking I don't want to be here, I'm not interested. It's Sunday night, the Sunday night movie starts at 8 30, I want to get home and watch it. Um but as I sat in the service, the preacher began to speak and started to talk about those who grew up in the church who have walked away or haven't acknowledged Christ. And my first thought was, you know, mum's put him up to this. Uh this this this is a bit of a setup. But this church was about 3,000 people, so I figured uh I don't know, I maybe she didn't get to the pastor, maybe this is he's just having a good old guess here. But as as he spoke about that, as he spoke about sin, it was just this deep sense of conviction came upon me that I had sinned against God, that I had done wrong, and at that moment all the objections I had built against Christianity just seemed to melt as I came face to face with the holy God. And uh it was it was a terrifying moment. It's the only way I could describe it because he'd done the the standard you know evangelical altar call, you know, bow your head, close your eyes. And I remember sitting in the congregation as he said, you know, if you're here tonight and you say I need to get right with God, just put your hand up, I want to pray for you. And running through my mind was don't be stupid, I've never put my hand up in front of this many people. And before I realised my hand was up and I heard the dreaded words, I see that hand. Wow. Um I thought, pull it down, 3,000 people, mate. I'm gonna be hiding here, he's not gonna see me. Uh followed through with the evangelical sneakiness at that point and said, Come forward. And uh I was trapped. And I remember getting to the front, and uh there was about 20 people that responded that night, and I looked around at all those who were with me at the front, and I remember seeing them laughing and smiling and joking. And the thought that ran through my mind was, don't they get it? They've sinned against God, and God is after them.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01And at this point, all I could say, I was trembling, I was terrified, I didn't know what was going on. And once again, the pastor explained the gospel, he explained Christ's death, burial, resurrection.
SPEAKER_02In a in a post-service meeting or no, it's in front of the whole church, mate. Right.
SPEAKER_013,000 people watching us. Wow, wow. And as he explained the gospel again, it it it finally clicked. And it was as if this conviction just lifted and this burden of sin disappeared. We then went, you know, to a little back room and I wasn't exactly sanctified at this moment, so when the councillor came to talk to me, I told him where you could get off. Um I didn't know what was going on. I was just terrified at that point, going, I've sinned, God's after me, but Jesus has rescued me. Wow. And I went home that night with such a hunger just to start reading the word, and that's how God saved me.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. And did he save you into that church? Is that is that where you began to belong?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I started to belong in that church. I um went to fellowship there. I they had a Bible college in the church. Uh my plans were actually to be a career soldier. That's what I wanted to join, the regular army. God quickly changed that, and before I knew what was happening, I was in Bible college. Wow. Um theologically, I'd be miles away from that church now. Um, but that's what God used to ground me, get me established, and you know, begin to grow me in the faith.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. So I I I often find it interesting how the way in which evangelists are converted does tend to shape the way in which they evangelize in the rest of life. You know, that formative encounter with Christ. I mean, I guess it can't help but shape the way that you offer the gospel to others. Have you sort of reflected on what you learnt from that evening in terms of how it shapes your own evangelism?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I mean, uh, I guess when you start in the at the time of conversion, you just have this complete understanding of sin and and the holiness of God. It does shape how you evangelize because you remember how God saved you, and you go, Well, I want people to understand their sin, I want people to understand the holiness of God, but then I want them to understand the the wonderful grace of Jesus that he can rescue those who have sinned against him. So it definitely reflects um you know how you go on and do things. And I mean, the first book I read after being converted was Billy Graham's autobiography, Just As I Am. And the the reason I read it was the only Christian book I could find on the shelf the night I wanted to read something. And reflecting on that, now you go, how much of an influence did these early encounters have on my later ministry? You know, you get converted, the first book you read is about an evangelist preaching the gospel. Yes, and it seems to you know fan into flame and stir something up within you just to say, I want to tell people about Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And did you find that you that was just an instantaneous thing that you were you were the guy who was sort of mouthing off about Jesus more than most?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Um that that was the problem. I mean, that was back in the days of the you know, the MSN chat rooms and all that, so I'd jump on the Christian rooms and or even on the atheist rooms and just go for it and uh you know, often get smacked quite hard. But it was a it was a learning curve, and uh you know, at work I would have church invites in my pocket, and when a customer started talking to me, I would work the conversation around of the church, invite them along. Um that didn't go too well with the bosses, and I probably wouldn't recommend doing that on boss time now. Uh but that was just that immediate desire to want to tell people. Amazing. And when I entered the college, I mean I remember actually praying. I didn't want to be an evangelist, I'd rather just be a pastor and serve in some pastorate somewhere. Um, but God's ways are not my ways, and uh he uh turned it around completely, and here I am serving as an evangelist.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. And so you you were born again not long before theological study, like within a matter of months or how how long?
SPEAKER_01Within six months, um my whole plans were turned on its head. I had one idea of what I was gonna do, uh that got put on hold, and uh I think it was around that time it was put on hold that someone said, Well, why don't you go just spend some time in the c in the college as you try to work out what you want to do? Uh studying the Bible's not gonna hurt you. And uh that was probably the best advice I ever had because that began to cultivate me and guide me into the ministry.
SPEAKER_02What did you take away from your time in Bible college? I know that you know sometimes evangelists are not known for a love of theological study. Um we tend to be just the the people who just want to get out there and do it. But what what did you take away from from that time of being set aside for theological study?
SPEAKER_01I guess the best advice I ever had in regards to theological study actually came when I, within a couple of weeks of starting college, I was at a Christian bookshop, I was looking in the theology section, and there was this really old man in the theology section as well. And he looked at me and said, What are you in this section for? And I'm like, Oh, I'm 17, maybe it's a bit odd being in a you know in the theology section. And I said, Oh well, I'm I'm studying the Bible, I'm studying theology at college. And he looked at me and said, Young man, let me give you some advice. As you collect the wood, don't let the fire go out. Oh, wow. And I thought, that's deep. Wow. And that stuck with me. And throughout college, you know, that it's so easy as you're studying the Bible daily, as you're you know, you're doing your Greek, your systematic theology, all that sort of stuff. It's so easy to start treating the Bible as a textbook that it your fire can begin to go out as you study the you know the academic arguments, you study the the arguments for and against certain positions, the philosophies, the worldviews. It's so easy to let that fire go out. So, what I took away from college is don't let the fire go out while you gather wood.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very good advice. I mean, I I remember I I mean I went away to a residential Bible college and so three years there, but but always wanting to get out and you know, so you know, part of a an open air kind of mission there in uh in North London where we were, but I just remember trying to raise support for this and and get people, you know, enthusiastic for coming out on a Friday afternoon and and talking to people and and just the the reticence of people who who just sort of said to me, Look, uh, I'm here to study, and that's that's all that I'm here to do. And I I I remember sort of raising Acts 17, you know, that um from one man God made every race of man and he determined the exact times and places where they should live. He did that, you know, so that men would reach out and find him. And and uh I remember preaching in in Bible college in the chapel and and saying, you know, God has not simply called you to a theological institution, he's called you to North London. How are we going to be, you know, these these evangelists in North London? I got taken aside by many different people that told me, no, that's not what they're there for. Um so I I yeah, I saw a lot of fires kind of uh at least, yeah, they they weren't raging at times. Um yeah, it makes makes me think that there's gotta be there's gotta be better ways of doing theological education, but I don't know. I guess at the same time though, um we want to be theologically educated evangelists, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Um absolutely, I think every evangelist should be a theologian. Uh we need to know our message, we need to know our theology if we're gonna proclaim it.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um the idea of the evangelist that just knows John 3 16 and that's it, yeah, I think is is a horrible idea. We need to be gripped with theology, we should be able to reason to argue, debate, uh, and hold our ground with the skeptics of the age who often know theology.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Uh, that we should be able to say, This is what the Bible actually teaches. How can we set forth Christ and defend the faith if we don't know it?
SPEAKER_02Yes, hundred percent. So w how Bible college was for uh three years, was it, or how long were you there?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I did two and a half years at that college um and then left and spent a year doing full-time evangelism in Brisbane. Uh, I started attending a new church, my theology completely shifted at this point. Okay. Um I went from holding one set of views to holding the views pretty much I hold to now.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And uh I started attending a Baptist church where I grew up as a child, and the pastor there took me under his wing and started to encourage me and uh pointed me in a better direction for theological studies, so I signed up and did another two and a half years, and uh I don't think I've learnt my lesson. I'm still there studying at a part-time level, working on uh postgraduate work. So I don't know, I just seem to be a glutton for punishment at the moment.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. What are you doing postgraduate wise?
SPEAKER_01I'm doing working on a master's in theology. So at the moment I'm uh working on a thesis on the history of open air evangelism. Um yeah, oh it's it sounds nice until you actually have to sit down and do all the work and you go, I really don't like this topic anymore. Uh but it's it's part of the discipline of actually sitting down and making sure I'm continuously learning, I'm continuously studying. Um I can't keep giving out to people if I'm not being filled myself. So I I tried discipline myself to be reading, studying, and that's what I'm finding my masters is working on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, fantastic. And in terms of the history of open air, do we trace it back to Whitfield? Can we trace it back meaningfully? I guess you've got lollards and people like that, even in sort of Reformation times, but um uh yeah, where's where does open air kind of begin?
SPEAKER_01It begins with preaching. Um I think if you look at the scripture, the the the first preaching examples you see were always under the blue sky. Um for the purpose of my thesis, I start with Jesus and the apostles, uh, because I figured there's just not enough space to cover everything. And I try to do a bit of a snapshot of um open air evangelism, but it it definitely started well with the beginning of preaching. With the advent of preaching, that's when open air evangelism began.
SPEAKER_02So you're doing your your master's on the history of open air, and um and I guess where where where does the history of the of open air begin for you?
SPEAKER_01The history of open air, I guess you always have to go back to the beginning of preaching. Every time preaching we see in scripture all the f the first instance of preaching preaching, the majority of it is in the open air. The prophets did it, the apostles did it, Jesus did it, and then through the church has been this strong history of taking the gospel out into public. Uh so it's It's hard, I guess, to nail down the history when you look back at the church in the Old Testament, the church in the New Testament, and go, This seems to be our default position. Take the good news into the public arena.
SPEAKER_02Hmm. There is that quote from Spurgeon, isn't there? Where he sort of says says, um, you don't need arguments for outdoor preaching. What you really need are arguments for indoor preaching.
SPEAKER_01Um Spurgeon's right, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Very interesting. Okay. And and are you finding that that study is is sort of shaping your thinking about your your practice today?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Um, even though I've been engaged in evangelistic ministry and uh for 13 years and open air for I think about twelve, as I'm sitting down and getting into the nitty-gritty and studying different aspects of the history, I find my view changing. You start to pick up common themes that are always prevalent in open air meetings, and you start to process that and go, how can I implement these things or how can I improve these things in what I currently do?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so um so you've been at your second Bible college, theology's changed, you're set on a different course. Um tell me tell me a little bit about family before we go on uh about the evangelism.
SPEAKER_01Okay, um I'm married, I have one wife, which is good. That's good. And I have uh two children, a five-year-old and a two-year-old, and a third is uh decided to shop in about August. Amazing. So we're a growing family.
SPEAKER_02Congratulations, yeah. And uh, where did you meet your wife?
SPEAKER_01I actually met her at an open air meeting. Um she got she heard about what we're doing. Uh she was working as a nurse in Brisbane City, and uh as a Christian, she thought, oh, some of these open air preachers are a bit crazy. And uh I'll just come in one night after shift and see what they do on a Saturday night. And uh she caught my attention pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh. I went across and spoke to her and she thought saw I was normal. Well, she's since changed her mind on that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh but at the time I put a good foot forward, and uh that's how I met her, and uh yeah, on the streets.
SPEAKER_02What a what a cool way to meet. Oh, brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Well, she knew what she was getting into.
SPEAKER_02Beginnings go on, yeah, fantastic. Okay. So uh tell me at what stage did you decide to come over to the UK?
SPEAKER_01I first visited the UK back in 2008. Um at college we had a a minister from the UK come into a chapel service, and he spoke about the need of the UK churches and just hit us with basically a ton of statistics on the evangelical church. And as I heard that, I thought, wow, that's that's uh that's terribly sad. That the UK is the motherland to Australia. This is where all our gospel ministers came from, this is our heritage, and it was heartbreaking to hear uh what was happening. So uh in our summer holidays, yeah, winter, we decided to uh I decided to head across and uh work with some mates doing evangelism in churches and open air work, and uh I instantly fell in love with the place. A year later I came back. Uh everyone kept telling me to come back in the British summer, not in the British winter. Uh-huh. But I had to go when I could get my semester breaks.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So 2008 I spent three weeks, 2009 I spent uh two months uh on the road doing ministry throughout the UK. And then uh the plan always was to head over there to to serve, to live. Uh but then God changed things a bit. Um I ended up entering the pastorate here in Australia. And in 2012 we finally uh packed up and moved to the UK with uh views of being there long terms, but again, God's ways are not always my ways, and he had other plans. And uh after a couple of years uh he provided the opportunity to return home.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so we met at uh it must have been in 2012 then, mustn't it? 2012. Uh yes, in that church in Wimbledon. And then you ended up going up to Scotland, is that right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, um, so I was working in London with an evangelical church, but then I accepted a call to a um a small Baptist church in Perth to uh serve as an evangelistic pastor.
SPEAKER_02Okay, fantastic. And then the next I heard from you was uh in the news. Um you you became famous. Uh do you want to tell us a little bit about why you became famous?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that what kind of blew up. Um within a couple of days really of getting to Scotland, uh we checked the laws out in regards to holding open air meetings, uh what the Scottish law says, and the law said we could do it, so we went out and we did it. Um no one seemed to have told the local police that's what the law said.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um and uh I got uh got arrested on the first open air meeting I did in Perth. Uh the police officer came up and uh said, You're not allowed to do this. I requested to know what law I'd broken. He uh told me to be quiet or I'd be arrested. At that point, a member of the public who was listening, we had a good sized crowd gathering, stood up and started shouting that that this was tyranny, uh, the police are violating free speech. Uh the police uh then arrested him. And next thing you know, I was told I was under arrest as well. And uh it was funny though, the the two officers that were called to transport me to the police station were backslidden Christians. One used to be in the boys' brigade, one used to be a boys' brigade officer. Wow. And they were so apologetic in the police van, they were they were treating me um almost as royalty, just being so polite and apologetic, and I was able to share the gospel with them.
SPEAKER_03Amazing.
SPEAKER_01And uh I got to the station, they told me, Go away, don't do it again, and they released me that day. And uh that was the beginning of it. They told me, you know, we looked into the law, we spoke to um Andrew Williams at Christian Concern, the Christian Legal Centre, mm-hmm, and said, you know what, what's the go here lawfully? We were assured um that it was legal, so on the Saturday we'd already arranged an open-air meeting. So we went back a couple of days later, and uh I was once again bundled away in a police car, and this time I spent seven hours in the cell.
SPEAKER_02Did they give you a charge at that time? Did they tell you what they were arresting you for?
SPEAKER_01Public nuisance is what they went after me for.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um this was all challenged legally, and uh after uh some time Police Scotland dropped all charges and conceded there shouldn't have been an arrest. And uh next thing I know there was an investigation into the officers that arrested me, and uh I'm not quite sure what happened as a result of all that, but uh everything went away, and I think we got the closest thing to a Scottish apology we could have gotten. That was yeah, it shouldn't have happened, we'll investigate our guys. Okay. So and but you know that provided opportunities for the gospel, and uh it was a hard time. Um you start sitting there going, Have I done something wrong? And you know, uh no doubt if I went back I'd probably change how I did things. Um I still maintain we had the legal right to do it. Yeah, um, but you know, you you live and learn. But the opportunities for the gospel really did present itself. We were shopping in Tesco, and this one guy looked at me and said, Oi, you're that guy that was on the news. And uh so my wife continued doing the shopping, and I was able to stand in the middle of Tesco sharing the gospel with him. And uh there was a guy in Perth that uh had been arrested and jailed for violent assault. He happened to be there the day I got arrested. He emailed me afterwards saying that was completely wrong, what happened to me, and said, Look, you know, if you're prepared to get arrested for Jesus, I guess I better think about him. Can I get a Bible off you? Wow. And uh, you know, this you know, in the midst of the hardship and questioning, going, why is this happening? Well, why is this going on? Yes, uh, God was still at work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh, you know, he works all things together for good, he works together my stupidity at times for his good. Yeah. Um, but it did cause the gospel to go forth, and that's what we're thankful for.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. So uh so the public nuisance charge that they gave you gave you, I guess that's probably designed to deal with drunks on the street causing a spectacle. Is that is that what that legislation is there for? It's it's that legislation is not there to stop street preaching, is it?
SPEAKER_01No, it's uh it it's pretty much designed for those sort of people who get in the public and cause trouble. And uh you know, open air evangelism street preaching is always you know, being protected is always safe uh under the law.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I think it's just an easy charge to pin on someone. Yeah, it's easy to come along and say, Hey, you're being a nuisance, go away. Yes. Um and most times the guys won't contest it, they won't challenge it, they'll just plead guilty and get it over and done with. Uh because it's such a minor charge. And I got told that if I would just plead guilty, I'd get a slap on the wrist told not to do it again. Uh but as a Christian, I believe in truth, and I said, Well, I can't do that. Um, I'm not gonna plead guilty to something I don't think I did. And uh it turned out to be the best decision because you know everything got dropped in the end, and I've had feedback from friends in Scotland who said they haven't had any issues with the police f since around that time. So hopefully of all the attention that came onto it, it it served as a a wake-up and a reminder that uh you still do have the freedoms in the UK to proclaim Christ in public.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Because there was a there was another case up north, I'm thinking of a guy, um somebody McAlpine.
SPEAKER_01Dar McAlpine in uh working.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And I remember I remember the the police afterwards um said we have to we have to balance the right of people to be able to preach against the right of uh the members of the public not being alarmed. Um and I thought that was a very interesting, like that that that was the official statement of the police that you know that there were the these two competing claims. One is yes, there's freedom of speech. On the other hand, we don't want people to be alarmed, uh, which is just a very interesting as though the state has the power to, you know, to stop anybody hearing or you know being conscious of views that might be in any way alarming.
SPEAKER_01Um how yeah, how it's such a it's a subjective standard when you think about it. Um what alarms you might not alarm me. Yes. Um I might get alarmed seeing you know uh a Muslim on the street talking about something I could think, well, in the age of terrorism, who knows what's gonna happen. Yeah um but you know, someone else might say, no, no, he's just you know talking about something random. It's it's it's so subjective it comes down to what alarms you, but then nothing becomes permissible because all things is that becomes a subjective standard. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02So what would you what would you say to to yourself um going into that that same situation again? Um you you said you'd do some things differently. What would you do differently? What would you do the same?
SPEAKER_01I probably would have given some more space between open-air meetings, uh and I probably would have um requested that the the Christian Legal Centre at the time would have, you know, hopefully written a letter to Police Scotland outlining our position to try and protect what we're up to. Uh so I probably just slowed it down a wee bit and uh perhaps gone to the station beforehand and said, This is what we're doing, you know, here's our legal rights. Um it's trying to explain to a police officer on the beat what the law is doesn't always go well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It may be better just to say, look, we'll head back to the station, speak to your officer commanding, and uh say, look, here's what the law says. But yeah, you you live and turn learn, and uh as one police officer said to me, we expect this from you convicts. Um he said it with a bit of a grin on his face. The problem was he was from Western Australia, so a different kind of purse to another.
SPEAKER_02So I I I guess street preachers need to know the law and need to know the law better than the police do. Um and you record yourself, do you usually?
SPEAKER_01Yes, we we record ourselves, and uh unfortunately that's become a um a danger of the job. You have to record everything because people make false accusations.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And uh I know we for instance in Brisbane, a friend of mine was holding an open-air meeting. He recorded himself, and this Lebanese man walked past and he called the police and said he was making racist comments uh about the Lebanese. So the police came along and said, Hey, there's been a report of racism. My friend was able to produce the recorder and say, Look, you can listen to what I said. The police did, so that's good, they got the gospel. Yeah, I guess as they listened to the audio, they went, Well, this guy's just making it up, you know. And uh they went and told him off for it. Yes, yeah so unfortunately that's become a part of the uh the dangers of the job. You've got to record everything because people tell lies, and uh you know they'll do anything to silence the gospel, and also it provides a legal defense as well in the courts. Uh if you can say, Look, here's actually what I said, uh what law did I break? And that's always been the recommendation that's come back through the Christian lawyers that we've been with is record everything, document everything. Because if anything does happen, and and most times nothing happens, but if anything does happen, you've got this safety net. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And what does it make you think in terms of you know, that there'd be a part of you that would want to push the boundaries of free speech because you know who's got the right to tell you what not to say? And there'll be a part of you that you that would want to soft pedal certain aspects of the Bible's truth. How do you sort of negotiate that? You know, if if you know that people are listening in and that the police might be called, what how how does that affect the content of what you say, do you think?
SPEAKER_01There's always that a temptation just to soften the gospel, to make it uh more palatable for people. Uh I I don't like when people get upset at me, I don't like getting in trouble with the police. It it terrifies me at times. Uh even though I've been doing you know open-air evangelism for 12 years, I I still get terrified, I still get scared. And there's that temptation to say, look, you know, if I just presented it differently, if I just soften the below, if I just don't talk about certain aspects, uh then perhaps everything would go well. The problem is if I start doing that, I'm not preaching the gospel, I'm not presenting the truth. Um, my first priority is to preach for the audience of one. Um you know, the triune God is the first hearer of my message and the last judge of my message, and ultimately all that matters is his opinion on what I say. And I've got to keep that in my mind that you know I'm preaching before him, and to him I have to give an account. So the moment I soften it, the moment I weaken it, I'm doing a disservice to his message. I have to proclaim what he tells me to proclaim, not to proclaim what I want to proclaim. And it isn't it's always a battle because you don't want people thinking badly of you, you want to have a good reputation, you don't want to get put in the clink. Uh so you there's that temptation. But if we start compromising at one point, where do we stop?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh for instance, over here at the moment, on the Gold Coast, a preacher got arrested uh for holding an open air meeting, and on his charge sheet, which I've actually seen, the route one of the reasons for the charge is that he said Jesus is the only way to God. We can't compromise that. Uh the moment we say, Well, I won't say that, uh what are we what's the point? You might as well stay at home and watch the footy or something. Um but that that's what the saying, you know, don't say that and all will be well with you. Well, you know, we we don't have that option. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's just stunning that the state should have such a theological view on things, you know, as though it wants to pronounce on that issue. Yeah, crazy. Yes. Um I'll I'll ask you about sort of blessings and successes um in a second, but but what what are some of the the other hardships uh involved in street preaching?
SPEAKER_01I guess a lot of hardships in open-air evangelism um is common to evangelism in general. I remember watching a video lecture from the Billy Graham's evangelism conference in Amsterdam 2000, where I can't remember what the speaker's name was, but he said that in evangelism the average preacher lasts only five years, and the reason they only last that long is because of discouragement, financial support, and sometimes what can be seen as a lack of results. And they're the big discouragements. Open air evangelism in and of itself is confrontational by nature, it goes against everything we're brought up to believe. You know, you you don't make a scene, you don't stand up and speak in public. And open air evangelism goes into the heartland of today's modern temples, you know, to the materialistic culture into their the malls and to the high streets, and it it proclaims Jesus as the rightful king, the God that they don't know. And people hear that and they go, This is this is awkward, this makes Christians uncomfortable. Yet where to do it. The problem is when Christians get uncomfortable, the support then goes down. Yeah. And people say, Well, you know, that's your thing, brother. Bless you. Um you're never gonna see me, I'm not gonna acknowledge you in public, but I'm praying for you very quietly. Uh so that can be discouraging. Um, and also, you know, it's it's it's not exactly um the easiest form of ministry to raise support for. I mean, when people think evangelism, they think Billy Graham and thousands of people running forward. You don't see that in open-air evangelism. Uh, you don't see you know waves of humanity rushing forward saying, good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Uh you don't see it at all. But eternity will testify to the results. So they can be discouraging because people go, well, it's awkward, and where's the fruit? And the problem is we we've come to the position in the church today where uh good results is considered by how many names we get on a decision card, not by the fact that the gospel was proclaimed.
SPEAKER_02I'll ask you about that issue of results in a in a little bit, but um But yeah, I mean it is I mean you you get it yourself, I'm sure. If if you have ever seen street preaching done badly, it makes you think, oh gosh, I don't you know I remember the there's a guy in London years ago who who just had a megaphone, and his only message was why be a sinner when you can be a winner, why be a sinner when you can be a winner? And then every now and again he'd he'd literally just mouth off at at the the worthless shopaholics who are around him. Um and I've I've always found it difficult doing first contact evangelism open air stuff when people like him are out there, because most Christians will just say, Well, if that's what it is, I I want no part of it. So how do how do you negotiate that?
SPEAKER_01That's definitely an area I've probably wrestled with myself. Um, you do see the nutjobs out there, and open air evangelism seems to attract the crazies. Yeah, uh it's just something about it, and the stereotypical view that people have of open air evangelism is a man standing on the footpath of a big beard holding a massive black Bible with a sign saying the end is nigh. Uh that's the general conception people have. And unfortunately, those guys do exist. I've met them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So the wrestlers, how do I do this without looking like them? And you know, at one point I thought, well, maybe I should just give it all away. You know, if there's going to be this uh this abuse of the open air method, well, maybe it's better if I don't do it. But as I thought about it, I thought we wouldn't apply that same logic to pulpit preaching. Yeah. And there's many pulpits that are inhabited by heretics. Yeah. There's many a false teacher that stands in a pulpit, yet we don't say we're not going to preach anymore because of the crazies and the dodgies.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if we do that in the church, why don't we do it in the open air? And something I've strived to do, and I've got to admit I don't always get it right, is to try and present a way that is appealing to the church, that people can see it as a good presentation, as a good thing, and to be the best at what I can do. And you know, it it's a battle at times because you're fighting with the preconceptions that people have. Yes.
SPEAKER_02But I guess you as you do it well, you are the best argument against that. You know. You know, in in the you know, abuse, you know, abuse of the the office is is no argument against the the proper use of it. Um and and as you do the proper use of it, then then hopefully you can you start to change perceptions. I guess that's the argument.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's that's one thing what we constantly say to people is why don't you just come out and see one of their open-air meetings? Why don't you uh you know we're not asking you to do anything, just stand at the back and maybe you can pray for us. And oftentimes when people do that, they'll stand there and go, Wow, I had no idea it was like this. So, for instance, one of the local Baptist um Bible colleges, once a year they do a um they take all their students out for an inner city mission to try and expose their students to different uh aspects of the ministry. And they spend a night with us in the open air. And it's fascinating talking to these students beforehand because they all come with pre preconceived ideas of what open air evangelism is like. They all think it's crazy, they've all been programmed constantly that the only form of evangelism is relationship evangelism, and they come out on the streets and they'll see the crowds gather to listen, they'll see people having conversations, they'll see people breaking down in tears, they'll see people asking for Bibles, and they stand there just going, Wow, this works.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Now, that's a pragmatic argument saying, well, it works, but it changes the mindset of people. They go, This isn't the crazy, this isn't bullhorn guy. Yeah. This is, you know, a person who's trying to be loving, who's trying to plead with sinners to be reconciled with God.
SPEAKER_06That was uh Josh Williamson talking to you, Glenn, uh, yesterday.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was it was late at night for me and early in the morning for him. I remember I got together with Emma, my wife, and I was in Australia and she was in England, and it was it was dreadful because one of us was like falling asleep and feeling very sappy and romantic, and the other one was sort of just wanting to get on with the day and then it reversed when it reversed when it was the other way around. But um yeah, uh it wasn't quite like that with Doctor. You know, uh neither of us were particularly sappy and romantic, but uh hopefully we were both uh invigorated and invigorating.
SPEAKER_06Yes, good. So next week we're gonna have the second half of this interview. And uh I think it goes into a bit more about open air campaigns and and the work they do. Uh maybe some tips about uh some uh uh open air or or call contact event as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, call first contact event as well. It doesn't have to be called um and uh uh I mean some great success stories um that he shares as well in the next episode um that have really heartened me. And yeah, I mean it is true that so much of evangelism is caught, not taught, and and uh and I think actually just spending time with and listening to um the passion as well as the expertise of other evangelists. It certainly fires me up and I and I hope it fires uh the listeners up too.
SPEAKER_06Okay, well, we've better um finished there for now. Uh do check out our new website, newly designed by uh John Bradley from uh NineFoot1. And uh he's done a really good job on sort of uh repositioning and and redesigning the site. So uh if you go on there, you'll easily find the uh podcast. Just go to speaklife.org.uk.
SPEAKER_02And there there's actually uh an updated an update video that we do. Um so we're hoping to do this sort of uh monthly email update uh to people. Uh and if you don't get speaklife's uh monthly update, then uh you can easily sign up there. And uh yeah, we'll tell you all about the very stuff that's going on and uh especially the the resources that we offer. You know, there's reading between the lines that you can get daily, the uh the speaklife daily that you can get daily. Um maybe weekly kind of um and all sorts of other content that's uh that's available online there. So it's uh it's a resource for you that's uh absolutely free. Uh we'd love you to take advantage of it.speaklife.org.uk.
SPEAKER_06That's it for this week. And see you next time. See ya.