Today on the Evangelist Podcast, Angry Evangelism. The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_04You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm Andy Brinkley. I'm here with Glenn Scrivener, and we're going to talk about Angry Evangelism.
SPEAKER_00Angry Evangelism.
SPEAKER_04Did you know I did a Google search for Angry Evangelism? Did you? You were the number one slot.
SPEAKER_01I'm the internet's number one Angry Evangelist. Your go-to source. For angry evangelism. Oh, I'd need to write a post on placid evangelism. Contented evangelism. Um I guess that's because of uh like I wrote a blog post on it recently. Yeah. And that's what it's linking to.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we you've been promising, we've been promising that uh we would talk about this for a few weeks now. We've been off doing university missions.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I'm not only an angry evangelist, I'm a forgetful evangelist. Promise breaking evangelist.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_04So angry evangelism, Glenn.
SPEAKER_01Yes. What is it? What is it? And how do we do it? No. Um I don't know. It's interesting when I do evangelism training, I sort of ask people to picture an evangelist for me. And uh and you know, they yell out sort of word associations, and it usually is, you know, some angry guy with a megaphone and a placard and that sort of thing. And and they they use these like horrible adjectives to describe evangelists, even though I've told them I am one, and it doesn't stop them from saying they're dreadful, horrible people. Anyway, so I think actually anger and evangelism uh do go together in the popular uh imagination, which is very unfortunate. Especially especially when you just deconstruct the words, like uh like what what does a an evangelist mean? What is the evangel? Telling the good news. The good news, exactly.
SPEAKER_00The evangel is the good news, like an angry teller of good news Oh yay, oh yay. You've just won the lottery.
SPEAKER_01Um That's what uh like yeah, we're meant to be publishers of good news, and yet in the popular imagination, uh there is an association with anger there. And and I'm the sort of person who I don't go out with a megaphone, but I I uh don't mind going out onto the street. I believe in doing it. Um so I'm not um afraid to go out and share my faith with people on the streets. Um and yet what I so often find, I often swing between these two different um extremes. On the one hand, I just think, well, everyone just needs to get out there and just share their faith, and for goodness sakes, and I'll just drag anyone kicking and screaming onto the streets to share their faith. But then I do that, and often in these situations you get paired up with somebody else, and and I've often been in the situation of thinking, oh, I think I want to drag them back off the streets now because my partner in crime is like getting angry, and I can spot them getting angry, and the non-Christian can spot them getting angry. And it it tends to happen, you know, when if the you know you're getting into conversation with a non-Christian, and for instance, they just seem to be completely unconcerned about their soul, as most non-Christians are, you know, just completely they haven't thought about where they're going when they die, they haven't thought about whether they're friends with God or not, or whether that matters, and and absolutely non-plussed about it. Um now to some Christians they get really agitated about that. Well you you've got to be thinking about this. What if what what if a bus what if that bus right there hit you, you know? And and so you know, you turn up the heat on them like that, or you know, and and then what happens when the non-Christian actually has non-Christian views on things? Yeah. Like um, who happens to have a different kind of morality to yours? The temerity to have a different view. Um well, what do you expect? You're talking to a non-Christian, like and Christians get agitated.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and particularly, you know, i if they've got a relatively close relationship, you know, one person gets really angry with the other. You've never given yourself to Christ yet. Yes, you haven't done it yet.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I have. Why haven't you? Yeah. So and and and and that's even before they might, you know, they might have the the gall to to doubt, you know, some of the gospel events. And that that's even that's even you know before anyone has mentioned, well, I've never really understood about God and suffering, or what about genocide in the old testament, or did Jesus really rise from the dead? That's that's even before they've asked those questions, we're getting angry. But then when people ask those questions, you know, evangelists can can get angry.
SPEAKER_04Why do you think that is? I mean, a Christian's motivation should be because they want to bring that person to Christ. What what what's going on when someone gets angry? Yeah. I don't know. What'd you think should we end there?
SPEAKER_01I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Just don't do it. Yeah, just just take a take a chill pill. You know, it could be the frustration of I can see it so clearly and they can't.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes like I I asked a similar question recently, and somebody said, Well, some people's frustration comes across as angry, but they're not angry, they're just frustrated that the person can't see what they see. And I think there is truth to that. But I also think frustrated in inverted commas can be a convenient kind of substitute word for angry. I'm not angry, I'm just frustrated. Um But there it there is that sense, you know, the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, says 2 Corinthians 4. And they can't come. They cannot see the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ. Unless they're drawn. And that's frustrating. Yeah. Goodness. You know, you're saying, see, see Jesus, and they've got a massive veil in front of their face. That's frustrating. Um But do we really believe that verse? Or do we think that the non-Christian has pulled the veil and and you know um and there is you know, th it it's a mixture. It's a mixture. They are imprisoned, but they also love their imprisonment. They are blind, but they also don't seek the light. And and there is that that dual thing going on with the non-Christian. But do we really believe that that it's this spiritual battle that is beyond the powers of the flesh, that it's really just gonna take God saying, Let light shine out of darkness, 2 Corinthians 4 verse 6. If we really believe that and that that it's in God's hands, then hopefully it won't be the human frustration of me and the powers of the flesh trying to make it happen. So I think some of some of the anger is that. It's the frustration that comes from trusting to the flesh to do what only the spirit can do. I think that's part of it. And I think part of it also is conceiving of the big job as getting them to make a decision. There is a decision they need to make for Jesus, and I've made the decision. And it was simple. You know, I got down on my knees and I asked Jesus into my life, and that was the decision I made, and now I've made that decision, and now you need to make that decision. And if you're not making that decision, well why not, for goodness sakes? Um And so it's sort of conceiving that the the real line that we draw is a line between making a decision for Jesus and not yet having made a decision for Jesus. And we're just in the club or not. In the club or not in the club. And and there's a right sense in which, yeah, there are people who are in Christ and people who are outside of Christ. And that that is um, you know, the the thickest, most vital line in the universe, you know, are you in Christ or are you not? That's that's a massive thing. But to but to conceive of it as have you made a decision for Jesus yet or not, is a slightly different line to draw. And sometimes I sense that that's what we've got in our thinking, that we want to get people to make a decision for Jesus and and and and so when we meet people who have not yet, we're kind of like, Well, why not you need to do this? Um and at that point we are considering ourselves to be much superior, yeah, because we're on the right side of the line, and they are much inferior because they're on the wrong side of the line. And I I even sense this at at sort of Christmas and Easter services, um, especially in an Anglican setting where um you get loads of people who are not just C of E, they're C and D. Christmas and Easter, and that's it. They come to church twice a year, C and D. And there can be that sense of you know of the preacher saying, and where were you the other fifty Sundays of the year?
unknownYou know.
SPEAKER_01Even though you don't say it out loud, you know, you might be thinking it's and and again it's that sense of, you know, I've I've made the I've crossed the line of decision, and you need to cross the line of decision. And I just wonder, and this is what the blog post is about, and this is what my thinking has been s um about. I wonder whether the line we need to draw is not so much between us and them, between we've made a decision you haven't. The real line that there is is heaven and earth. The real line that there is is Jesus and the rest of us. The real life there is is the righteous one and sinners. And if we draw the line there, which side am I on? I'm on the same side as the non-Christian. And just drilling that into my heart that you know it's it's often encapsulated in that phrase, isn't it? Evangelism is one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. Where is the line? The line is between the bread and the beggars. Which line which side of the line am I on? I'm on the side of the beggar. I'm on the same side as the non-Christian I'm talking to.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and it it's it's almost like I'm you know, imagine a terrace of houses, and you know, you're in number one and it's it's it's it's been on fire and you've escaped. Yeah. And you go around, you know, and yeah, you go up to number you know, the next number where the fire is, and you you know, rather than shout angrily at them, you haven't got out of your house yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You run in and you you know you drag them from the flames and you sort of try and save them. Yeah. Um rather than just sort of, you know, with a megaphone or order them. And you haven't put smoke detectors to them. You are foolish. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Now is not the time to lecture them about smoke detectors. You know what I mean? And and you know, you could be frustrated if, you know, if the resident in number seven is like not bothered because match of the day's on. That's right. Like you could you could get frustrated at that. But now is not the time to lecture them about about, you know, smoking in bed or whatever. And so the so the real line is between heaven and earth, between righteousness and sinners, um, between Jesus and the rest of humanity. And when the line is drawn there, I'm on the same side as the non-Christian. And therefore, what I say to people is is I at that stage I'm I'm addressing the children of Adam in my evangelism and including myself among the number of the children of Adam. I d but so often what I want to do is talk about the children of Abraham and the rest. I'm a member of the children of Abraham, and we're in the spiritual community, and you're in the heathen, and and the But I think I think both in my preaching and in one-to-one evangelism, I need to be thinking, I'm a child of Adam, you're a child of Adam. Let me apply the scriptures to the problems of the children of Adam, and let me put my own hand up and say, I struggle with these problems. I don't have an answer to death, I don't have an answer to the the sins of my own heart, I don't have an answer to the frustration of living in this broken world. And neither do you, my friend. But you approach them on the same footing and and I think that then cuts away the superiority that is at the heart of angry evangelism, I think.
SPEAKER_04Often the church is accused of being hypocritical.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And uh in a sense there is a rightness that the person preaching you know is just as much a sinner as as the rest. It's not supposed to be about you know, come up to our level. Yes, exactly. You know, w we are all in the boat together and and Christ has come to save us all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And so getting that real sense of the bondage of the will, that real sense of our lostness in Adam, that real sense of original sin, that real sense of yeah, we're all in the same boat together. I did a talk on hypocrisy at Reading University recently, and and my title was The Church is Full of Hypocrites. And I said, No, the church is full of sinners. You know the difference, right? A hypocrite is a sinner who denies it. A sinner is just a sinner who admits it, you know, and that and that's what church is meant to be. A place where you drop the mask, uh and and and you say at and at that point you're appearing to the non-Christian not as better than them, but as worse than them. Because you're you're someone who can admit to their sin. And um so yeah, because you're admitting to your own sin, hopefully that then undercuts your self-righteousness, which again is a massive cause of anger. Um it's really interesting doing a a a word study on on anger in the Bible, and y you'll see an a number of of of angry uh characters in the Bible. Three three in particular spring to mind. You get um Cain. Why is he angry? What what's what's wrong with my offering? What's wrong with my vegetables that I'm offering to God? You know, Abel's offering the first firstborn of the of the of the flock, and and and it's just this self-righteousness, why isn't why aren't I being accepted because of my my own goodness? And he gets furious, furious enough to murder. Then you go to Saul, and again, you're like Saul's like, you know, why should I have to wait for Samuel? And why, you know, why can't I do things the way I want to do things? And and just he gets furious and angry and then sullen and um or you think of Jonah, again, just you know, he's so much better than the the Ninevites, you know? I mean talk about someone who thinks he's on the other side of the line to the Nineveh. And just the furious anger that he gets to in uh he's angry enough to die in Jonah chapter four. And and I think Jonah chapter four is there to basically say Jonah is he's almost more miserable than the than the the Ninevehes. You know, he's like it's a different kind of sin, but it's a it's a such an ugly sin. And sort of, you know, the the greatest evangelist of the Old Testament, you know, Jonah, um seeing, you know, well over a hundred thousand saved, this greatest evangelist is is shown to be angry and shown to be sullen and self-righteous, and largely because he just thinks of himself on a different plane to the Ninevites, and the whole of the story brings him down to to basically say, You are just as needy. Um should I not have had compassion on the Nin Ninevites, Jonah? And haven't I just had compassion on you, Jonah? This is not about your deservingness. So yeah, again, I I think these character studies and anger are given to us to to reveal to us the self-righteousness in our own hearts, and I think Jonah's um example in particular is given to us to say angry evangelism is ugly, ugly, ugly. It's prevalent. You know, the most the most popular, the most successful evangelist in the old covenant um was an angry, angry man. But don't be like Jonah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, Glenn. I mean, you know, when we're preaching the gospel, how do we bring in the judgment, the wrath of God and everything without getting angry, you know, without portraying it as a as an angry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because wrath means anger, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So God gets angry. And it says in your post, you know, Romans 1 18.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04But the wrath of God is being revealed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It is being revealed right now. So Romans chapter 1, um, yeah, the wrath of God is being revealed. Psalm eleven, you know, God gets angry every day. Yeah. Right? Um John three verse eighteen. Um, that we stand condemned already when we do not believe in the name of God's one and only son. John three, verse thirty-six, God's wrath remains on those outside of Christ. So, like all these things talk about God's anger as a present tense reality, the wrath of God as a present tense reality, as a way of saying, look, you don't want to get stuck in this forever, do you? But what's interesting about things like Romans 1 is the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven, and it's being revealed in in the way in which God hands humanity over to its sinful desires. And so it's happening now, like like we're we're living with the consequences of the wrath of God being revealed from heaven right now. And so there's a deep sense in which here I am standing with the non-Christian, and in one sense, I'm I'm in the same boat. Um, this wrath of God is being revealed from heaven right now. You know, I am not destined for wrath, not anymore. In Christ, you know, I I am kept safe, Christ took the wrath on the cross, I never have to. Um but right now I'm living in this broken world, I'm perishing, I'm dying, I'm a sinner, um, I'm working uh working within a world that is subjected to frustration and in which, you know, the wrath of God is at work. Um and so I'm talking about that all the time, but actually, because God has wrath and God gets angry, I can love you. So, you know, it's very interesting. Um Miroslav Wolf is uh a theologian coming out of the Balkans, and so you know, he's grown up within families in which there's been just the most horrendous um fighting between Muslims and Christians, you know, largely, and and the uh the Bosnian Serbs and the Croats, and so he's come out of that environment, and and um he's often asked, you know, as a Christian, how do you take the anger out of that situation? And he says, Well, you've got to believe in a God of anger. And it might sound counterintuitive, but he's saying, Well, you need to know about a God who rights all wrongs and who brings perfect justice, not out of personal animosity, but because he is the just God and will not the God of all the all the earth do what is right? And so actually your belief in God's wrath and God's anger allows you to love even your enemies. Because you you don't have to right all wrongs, and you don't have to. And again, it's it's this thing, I don't have to trust by the powers of my flesh that I need to sort you out. I can leave room for God's spirit, I can leave room for God's wrath. Romans twelve. So Romans twelve, you know, says, you know, do not get angry, do not avenge yourselves on others, but leave room for God's wrath for judgment is justice is mine, is it is mine to avenge. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord, it's mine to avenge. Um so because there is a God who will perfectly and righteously and fairly deal out judgment at the end of all things, because of all things all those things, therefore I can love you now, and I can love the non-Christian now, I can love my enemy right now. Um and actually, do I have room for God's wrath in my preaching? Yeah, I've got a lot of room for God's wrath. I'm I'm told to leave room for God's wrath. Um and what that means is I trust God with the judgments. In the meantime, I can offer good news. So that's what I'm trying to do in evangelism. Uh and you know and that's that's why Paul is able to say, Look, the love of Christ compels me because I'm convinced that one died for all and therefore all died. Um he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died and was raised again for them, and and we are therefore ambassadors of Christ, God making his appeal to us, be reconciled to God. So, yes, there is wrath, but in this gospel age, the message that we are commissioned with is be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. So that love of God compels me and drives me out. Is there wrath of God? Absolutely, but I leave room for that. I leave room for him to do what is right. In the meantime, I'm called to love, I'm called to deliver good news.
SPEAKER_04Okay, well, if you wanted to uh to read Glenn's post on Angry Evangelism, you just Google it. Just Google Angry Evangelism.
SPEAKER_01I hope my picture.
SPEAKER_04Have you had a look at it? No, it's not your picture, it's not your picture. That's good. Glenn Scrivener, the Angry Evangelist. So just go to speaklife.org.uk slash TEP to find all the episodes of the Evangelist podcast there. And this one, if you're listening to it recently after this it's been published, it will be number one. If not, just um you can scroll down to Angry Evangelism and you'll uh you'll find it there. Okay, well we're gonna leave it there uh at this point. So thanks very much, Glenn. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Oh thanks. Let's let's just all have a deep breath. Breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth. Placid evangelism with Kevin Scribble. Can you put some new age music behind it? Yeah.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Imagine yourself at the beach. The water's gently lapping against your toes. Your toes have dissolved into the ocean. Sounds a bit Buddhist now. Yeah, leave it there. All right. Hope that sent you to sleep. Good. Speak to next time. Bye.