Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk about reaching out at Christmas.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01Well, Glenn, we're back.
SPEAKER_02We're back from outer space. Yes.
SPEAKER_01We've been doing this series and uh reaching out to the people of different faiths.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh we thought that it was well, it could be a long series. Yeah. And what we thought we'd do is just break for Christmas.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, advent's coming, so you know, we need to we need to get our get our Christmas game on, but we'd love to return to uh thinking about other faiths in particular. Uh we haven't spoken yet about Buddhism, we haven't spoken yet about uh Hinduism in particular. And if there is a a a worldview or even a cult um that uh you'd like us to cover, then please do get in touch. We'd love to you know, we haven't thought about the Baha'i faith, and we haven't thought about Scientology, and we haven't thought about uh I don't know, lots of things. So we'll tackle that in the new year. Yeah. Um but I thought it was time to kind of uh press pause on it and just think about what where we've gotten to as we've uh looked at other faiths.
SPEAKER_01Um we've had a review um from the podcast. Uh so this is from the average Joe. Says my senior pastor recommended the evangelist podcast. I've heard about ten episodes so far and have been encouraged and better equipped. I've already used one thing I heard in a conversation with a person who ended up professing faith in Christ. I thank the Lord for TEP.
SPEAKER_02So that's great. Thank you, Average Joe. Yeah. Oh fantastic. That's and that's kind of why we do it. We we do it in order to equip God's people for their works of evangelistic service. And um and hopefully it uh it has helped you and uh and if so, then uh why not share the word on social media and um yeah, get it get it heard by more people because uh we don't do this just to entertain ourselves as Christians, like we we do it literally so that things like that can happen, so people can be equipped in their personal witness.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, wonderful. Excellent. And uh if you're not subscribed to it, you're listening to this but you're not actually subscribed, you can do that easily by going to speaklife.org.uk slash tep.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01So it would be good if we could just sort of summarise uh where we've got to so far with with um looking at uh speaking to other faiths about Christ.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um just give us a whistle stop tour of whistle stop tour.
SPEAKER_02What we've done. We had Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, we had uh Islam, we had paganism, we had Sikhism. Have I missed anyone else?
SPEAKER_01Not no, not the not at this point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so those are the those are the big five that we've looked at so far. And and we've spoken to experts um in reaching out to people in all those different fields. Um and what I've really enjoyed, and I think the number one thing I've I've gotten out of it, uh, is it's okay not to know about all this stuff. So we've gone through ten episodes in which, you know, now now the the punchline is you didn't need to know any of that. Um, it's fantastic to know about that, but the best thing you can do, if you think, oh, how on earth do I reach out to this Muslim friend of mine, um best thing to do is just ask them what Islam is and what is it for them. Because you might have learnt from us a whole bunch of stuff, but the Muslim in front of you, well, he might be a a a Shia Muslim and you've just been studying Sunni Islam or or whatever.
SPEAKER_01So And a lot of Jesus' uh interactions with people is is asking them questions. Exactly. You can get a long way with just sort of asking people questions.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Ask them the questions. And so don't feel like because you've listened to a couple of podcasts on a on a religion that um now you can tell them what the what they believe. Um the best thing to do now, having known all those things and and now knowing the fruitful areas of discussion. Interestingly, so often those fruitful areas of discussion are who is Jesus and what about assurance of salvation? Um those are always the fruitful, it's it's been very interesting. Whether you're talking to a Mormon or a Muslim or Jehovah's Witness, always the questions are who is Jesus for you? And do you know that you have eternal life? Do you know that you know God? Do you you know? So that's been interesting to me as as a sort of a common denominator between um all these different dialogues. But the yeah, the big thing is yes, find out as much as you can about that religion, but don't think that you know what the other person believes. Yes. Ask. And in that curiosity, and even as you play dumb, um, that's really, really helpful. Getting them to explain stuff to you is, as you say, Jesus method, and it draws them out. Um and it and it actually, if you're asking the questions, it enables you to explore into areas where you want to go. Yeah. Um, so yeah, continue to be inquisitive, continue to ask questions about Jesus in particular and the assurance that we have as Christians, and I think you'll have some really fruitful conversations. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There is there is a place for being prepared, isn't there? You know, Timothy Barnett said about uh that stuff that he's got printed off by the door. Yes. So that's Jehovah's Witness knocks on the door and he can quickly go through those scriptures.
SPEAKER_02Break glass in case of Jehovah's Witness to bring it out. And that you know, and that is that is helpful, especi especially with people of the book, people who are very booky, like Jehovah's Witnesses or like Muslims. Um it is it is very worth um having some, you know, a couple of scriptures you know in your mind because they they love Bible study, they love opening up the book like that. So it it is worth being prepared like that. And if it wasn't we wouldn't have done the ten episodes. But um uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01And of course if you know if you don't know anything, you can just say, Well, I'll get back to you, you know, and it give you an opportunity to meet the person again.
unknownTotally.
SPEAKER_01And uh, you know, it as you as you said before, it sharpens your own face to to sort of study these things and think, well, yeah, I suppose, you know, this is about the nature of God or whatever, and it kind of builds you up at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Hundred percent it does. I mean, I was I was giving a day of teaching on Monday to some church leaders in training, and I was basically taking them through the Torah, the Pentateuch, Genesis to to Deuteronomy. And um and they asked me, you know, well, gosh, you know, how did you get into all this stuff to begin with? Because I was preaching Christ from Exodus and Christ from Numbers and Christ from Deuteronomy. Like, how did you get into this? And I said, Well, honestly, it's through engaging Muslims at Speaker's Corner, Sunday by Sunday. And whenever I preached Jesus from the Gospels, they would say, Ah, but you've changed the Gospels. But they they tended to have uh a respect for the Torah a lot more, or at least they they tended to think that it was genuinely scripture, whereas they thought that the Christians had changed the gospels. And so it just forced me to proclaim Jesus from the Old Testament, and and it's sharpened me and it's helped me to be a better Christian. I think all all these dialogues help you to be a better Christian, help you to understand the riches that we've already got in the gospel, and it just as as a as a Pepsi challenge almost, and and you know, you taste some of the other cola brands that are out there and you go, I'm very glad I've got Jesus. Very, very glad I've got Jesus. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So what have you been doing recently, Glenn? You you um been travelling around.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So I don't know, like on Thursday, um I went up to Oxford and I had to I had to borrow a uh a bow tie, and then I had to get someone to show me how to tie a bow tie, and then in the end they just had to tie the bow tie for me. Um and uh I was at this sort of black tie event where I was speaking at uh at the end of a a dinner put on by St St Aldates in Oxford, and that was brilliant, and they got they got well over two hundred people there, and a and a good number of those were non-Christians. Um so yes, I I was reflecting on the way up 1 Corinthians chapter 9, to the posh, I became posh in order to win the posh. All things to all people. So that would that was a great event. Signal dates did a brilliant job. And um interestingly, there I just I just spoke on Philippians 2, not for very long, about 12 minutes, and and just sort of said, um, I don't know what kind of God you don't believe in, but here's the God that I do believe in. Here is the God who became nothing and poured himself out and made himself a servant and a slave and a human sacrifice. Kind of an interesting God, don't you think? And just got into brilliant conversations afterwards uh with people who I I guess at Oxford quite often they are used to um being engaged by Christians on a philosophical level and kind of matching philosophical firepower for philosophical pi firepower. And I just enjoyed going up there and saying, hey, check out the cross. That's interesting, that's weird, that's different. And just kind of subverting people's um thoughts about where they might find God. You know where you're gonna find God? On the cross. Ooh, that's different. Um but it led to some really fruitful conversations, so that was cool. And then I did the uh weekend away for University of East Anglia Christian Union, so uh up near Norwich. So I'm I'm about to go to Norwich Cathedral in a couple of weeks to do their carol service. Okay. Um which is great. I did their carol service last year and they got sort of a thousand people into the and you know, there were 20 people away. So they they need to start thinking about, well, let's do two services and maybe they can invite the town in. And you just you just think, you know, this this organization, uh we call ourselves speak life now. We were the Hour of Revival Evangelistic Association, was started by Eric Hutchings and he would go to the centre of towns and and put on, you know, big events and it would take a lot of organizing. And and you know, they would get those kinds of numbers of people to come to the centre of town, to a town hall or that kind of thing where he would preach. But it's it's it is amazing that at Christmas those kind of opportunities are just offered to us on a plate. You know, we haven't had to do any, you know, massive publicity and um they're not coming to hear me, which is good, you know. But they are they are coming to think about the true meaning of Christmas. So what an opportunity Christmas is. And we'll be thinking about that and how to take advantage of that. So that was uh that was on over the weekend, and then um uh yesterday yesterday I spoke at the uh the Faith's Forum. So it's interfaith week um all over the country. And there are all sorts of faith forums where people get together and um and it's it's usually um a a very sort of positive, groovy, you know, we're all in this thing together kind of thing. Until they invite me, and then I I kind of I I I don't know. I I I was gracious and you're the grit in the shoe. I'm the grit. That's the last time I spoke at one of these was in 2010. And um and and a and a lovely Christian man afterwards said, you know, everybody else when they spoke, they were sort of the the Vaseline that was smoothing everything over, and every time you spoke, you just had a little bit of grit, Glenn. That was his way of saying I was abrasive and nasty piece of work or something. But uh no, that was that was very interesting. It was on the topic of let's give peace a chance. And obviously after the events of the terrorist attacks in in Paris, um there were some very pointed questions, and I was expecting very different pointed questions about let's give peace a chance. But actually, three times in the Q ⁇ A session there was about seven of us on stage. We all had five minutes to to lay out what our religion thought about peace, and then we were to take questions afterwards, and I was nervous about the questions afterwards, but actually none of the questions were accusatory in any way about religion. Because we're meant to be facing, you know, the town and secular Eastbourne is meant to be, you know, quizzing questioning all the fates, yeah. Yeah. But actually, nothing was said um negatively at all. Three times there were impassioned pleas from uh people in the con uh people in the audience saying, um, how on earth can we stop Islamophobia in Eastbourne? And and there's no doubt going to be all sorts of, you know, retaliation as people get angry at the terrorism and they're going to lash out against the mosque. And how are we going to stop Islamophobia? And and so, you know, the first time the question was asked, I was like, Well, you know, we need to understand each other, we need to get together and face to face and over meals and understand where one another is coming from, and that that's really important. And then the second time the question is a asked, I sort of say a similar thing. And then the third time the question is asked, I just turned to the Imam and and I said, Abdul, can you just tell us about your experience of being a Muslim in Eastbourne? Because if it really is um a terrible experience of Islamophobia, like I I need to hear that and we need to know how we can repent and help you. And and Abdul just said, My experience of being a Muslim in Eastbourne, pleasant. Very, very pleasant. And I don't know, it it just it was very interesting to me that we've learnt that a knee-jerk response is we need to f worry about Islamophobia might come up because of uh retaliations for uh terrorist account uh attacks. But that's certainly not the problem in Eastbourne. It might be the problem where you are. Um it's not the problem in Eastbourne, and actually part of the grit that I was trying to throw in was to say to people, listen, it is a cliche to say that religion causes all wars. And I wheeled out the statistic that I always wheel out, which is that Philip and Axelrod's Encyclopedia of All Wars chronicles 1763 different wars that have happened in history, and they say that about 123 of them are religious in nature, which is seven percent. Which puts pay to the lie that religion causes all war. You know, God is not the common denominator in war, man is, and I was making all those points, and so I was trying to say, look, on the one hand, we don't want to buy into that cliche, but on the other hand, we don't want to buy into the cliche that just says all religions are by their very nature peaceful. Because they're not. There was a god called Zeus. There was a god called Mars. And what we believe does have implications for these kinds of things. And I would like to sit down with the Imam, and I would like I'm reading through the Quran, rereading through the Quran, and and I would like to ask him, what does Surah 5 verse 33 really mean? What does Surah 9 verse 5 really mean? And I I'd I'd just like to to just on the basis, you know, I I I think he's a lovely, lovely guy, and I all the Muslims I've ever met have been the most hospitable, lovely, you know, lovely, lovely people. And and um but can we with books open and eyes wide open have this discussion? Yeah. Um so that's what it that's where I was trying to get to um last night, and and I've got a an invitation to the mosque and um yeah, I'd love to take that up and um started some good conversations with s with some people from the mosque. So um so for me it was worthwhile for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That would be really interesting, sort of like kick, you know, k to do uh you know, a one-on-one Bible study or Quran study. Yeah. Just you know, what's your understanding of these very interesting verses?
SPEAKER_02I mean uh I mean Surah 5 verse 32, I heard quoted very often in response to the um the terrorist attacks, uh in which it says, you know, whoever kills an innocent, it is like they've killed the whole human race. And whoever saves the life of an innocent, it's like they've saved the race they've saved the whole human race. Mm number of interesting things about that. What is your definition of innocent? Is is a non-Muslim an innocent? Another interesting thing is that that verse is actually reporting what Allah's message to the children of Israel was. Allah's message to the children of Israel was if you kill an innocent, then it's like you've killed the human race. That was his message to Israel. The very next verse, Surafai verse 33, says Allah's message to um the present-day Muslims is that for all the enemies of Allah and his messenger, they should be killed, crucified, beheaded, and amputated. Um and and those two verses are side by side. And and it's I I love that Surah 5 verse 32 is in your book. Great. How do you put that together with Surah 5 verse 33? Which actually, you know, it's interesting with the Christians and you know, questions about the Old Testament are raised with Christians, and we sort of say, ah yes, there's Old Testament, but Jesus comes and does something new to Israel, and and so how we read the Old Testament is different. And so the trajectory is away from certain acts of holy war in the Old Testament um into the New Testament. So that's the trajectory from the Bible's perspective, from the Quran's perspective. Surah 5 verse 32 is the Jews are protecting life. Surah 5 verse 33 is the Muslims kill, crucify those who are enemies of Muhammad. Um and so the trajectory is entirely different. And and therefore you know, I and I I I want to hear good explanations of that. You know, and I and I and I and I don't assume anything of ill will in any Muslim whatsoever, but I do look back at a book um th, you know, that has come from a warrior. And I do want to know how are you going to read that book um today. So yeah, I mean it's interesting. I've got a I've got a debate with a or a discussion, a dialogue. I don't know what we're gonna call it, but um I'm gonna have some time, he's gonna have some time, we're gonna get to rebut each other and then feel questions. So if you want to call that a debate, then I guess. So in Portsmouth. Okay. So the Portsmouth Christian Union. Ah, right. Portsmouth University Christian Union, uh, together with the Islamic Society there, um, they've got uh a guy called Adnan Rashid's gonna speak, and I'm gonna speak on the Christian uh view of Jesus. Right. So what's the Islamic view of Jesus? What's the Christian view of Jesus? And then we're gonna take some questions.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that'd be really interesting. I want is it gonna be recorded, do you know?
SPEAKER_02Oh let let me ask. Let me ask. Fergal Kelly, if you're if you're listening, can we record it?
SPEAKER_01That'd be good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, hope yeah, hope, hope we can.
SPEAKER_01Maybe we could play it in in the episode of uh the end of this podcast.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, and if you're near Portsmouth, it's on the second of December and you can get in touch and we'll tell you when and when.
SPEAKER_01So what other faiths were represented at the Faith Forum then? Oh loads.
SPEAKER_02Christian, Muslim. So there was a Roman Catholic as well as Catholic myself, uh I think I was down as Church of England, but I I I sort of I took the Protestants with me. And so So there was Roman Catholic, me as as um sort of Protestant. There was Christian science, so the Mary Baker Eddie thing. Yes. The Imam from the mosque. Um the Jewish representative couldn't make it, but they were going to be there. And there was a Mormon and there was a pagan from the northern tradition, and there was somebody else. A Buddhist. Right. Interesting. So yeah, I mean the the the f where because you can't shut me up, I kind of took the mic and gave the final thought, but um it's interesting on the s on the topic of peace, it's very easy to sound you know, warm and fuzzy on the issue of peace. And I was I was just constantly wanting to say peace and tranquility shouldn't really be synonyms. There's nothing tranquil about what real peace is. If Jesus shows us what peace is, it takes blood, sweat, and tears to bring peace. It brings pain. He would he died on the cross to bring peace with us. And what it will take for us to turn the other cheek to other people, it'll be a costly, painful kind of thing. And so I was always wanting to to sort of say, you know, forgiveness sounds lovely as a Facebook meme. And you know, there's a there's a picture about, you know, if I don't forgive my enemy, it's like, you know, drinking poison and hoping that they die, you know, and and and I can have all sorts of ideas about forgiveness, I can have all sorts of ideas about loving the world. But you know, funnily enough, the Bible really doesn't talk about loving the world, it talks about loving your neighbour, you know, the actual person who crosses your path and gets in your way and is annoying. And so, you know, a as much as we might want to sit around a campfire and sing kumbaya, what about the war that goes on in our own hearts? And James 4 says, Fights and quarrels come from my desires that are within me. How am I gonna deal with those? And then I just urge people, will you will you pray? Because, you know, if you're gonna have peace in the world, you need to deal with the junk that is inside you that causes you to be a warmonger. And my challenge to all of you is to to go home and just pray. You know, God, will you will you identify the stuff that's in my heart and will you show me the way of peace? So um it wasn't exactly an altar call, come to Christ, but in that in that forum that was that was my way of of moving it into a yeah, into a into a direction in which I didn't spoken about Jesus. So when the when it comes around Yeah, in five years' time when I forgotten what I did last time.
SPEAKER_01You might get another invite.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I tell you what, maybe on these show notes you can put links to my last appearance on the um that was on video, wasn't it? Yeah, it was on video and I I was answering questions um back then. Yeah, maybe maybe we'll put that on the show notes.
SPEAKER_01Okay, good. Uh we also need to um uh tell people about the uh Christmas campaign.
SPEAKER_02Don't they already know? Hasn't it already hasn't it already flooded their Facebook timeline? Um so hopefully, like somewhere on social media, someone has put on your timeline, I got Santa. What kind of Christmas are you? Take the test. And uh that will take you to fourkindsofchristmas.com and uh you can answer eight questions about your Christmas habits, and then it'll tell you whether you are a Scrooge, whether you are a shopper, a Santa, or whether you are the stable when it comes to Christmas. And this is part of our Christmas outreach. Um we've got the book which is um selling like hot cakes. Yeah. Um because ten of those are thousands of them. Thousands, tens of thousands of them. So out it goes, I think it's on its third reprint already. It's only been out for like a month. So that's probably just means that Jonathan Carswell didn't think it would sell very well to begin with. No. No, they're very they're very pleased with how it's going. And um so can you on social media share this quiz? Do the quiz yourself, it's a bit of fun. Um, share the quiz, and it's a gentle way in so that people will then perhaps um click through to read the book online or get the book sent to them. And then in two weeks' time we're gonna launch the video as well, which will be another um another aspect to the to the campaign.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you've got John Lewis, you've got Saintsbury, so then you've got Glenn Scribini.
SPEAKER_02That's right, you've got the you've got the Speak Life video. It'll yeah, Christmas does not begin until the Speak Life video comes out. So we shall see. We're gonna we're gonna be doing some work on it actually this afternoon, and uh yeah. Yeah, it's a bit of fun.
SPEAKER_01Great. Well uh we've got uh some exciting stuff coming up next week. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Um you're going to Cumbran this Yeah, Thursday to Sunday, so it's the two hundredth anniversary of and I'm gonna get the pronunciation wrong, Pontridin Church in uh in Cumbran. Please write in and tell me how I've mangled the Welsh language. Is it Pontridderan or Pontridiran? Anyway, I'll I'll find out. Um I'll find out before I open my mouth again. Um in Cumbran, and they're having their 200-year uh anniversary, Pontridun Baptist Church. And uh we're putting on all sorts of different events and uh we're taking a team, so the guys that are studying with us to do their um postgraduate diploma in theology, they're they're studying through union, but they're coming with us um as uh helpers on the mission, and they'll be doing some of the talks, and I'll be doing some of the talks. And uh yeah, Cumbran, watch out, because we're gonna gospel ya.
SPEAKER_01Great. Well, uh, I don't think there's much more to to say from this episode, so uh we'll leave it there.
SPEAKER_02That's it. We've run out of everything to say. Glenn's the end. Glenn's run out of something. Finally. Alright. Well then, Andy, what would you like to talk about? Come on, man. That's it. Finish. Did you have a joke? Yeah, it's over. It's over.