Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Clive Thorn about reaching out to stake. The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We're talking this week to Clive Thorn, who we we started speaking to last time about sharing the gospel with the Sikh.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Yeah, he's based there in Southampton with uh Southampton Lighthouse International Church and uh has been ministering uh among Sikhs for many decades now and uh and uh other people from uh Asian backgrounds. Uh uh he's also the co-author of Discovering Jesus through Asian Eyes, a terrific course that people can uh um can do that that helps people to uh be introduced to Christ um from those kinds of backgrounds. Uh and uh I I yeah I absolutely loved uh interviewing him. Uh he inspired me with his uh prayerfulness and also his blunderbutt approach to evangelism. That's what he calls it. Just throw everything in the kitchen sink, just try everything, try door knocking, try open air, try practice, try uh street preaching, to try uh getting invited over to the temple, to try to try everything. And um and he's gaining real fruitfulness. So we've got much to learn from him.
SPEAKER_01So this is part of a wider series that we're doing about reaching people of different faiths. And uh we've done Muslims and Mormons and uh JWs. In fact, um I had a knock on the door the other day for the JW. Ah, were you ready? I I hadn't I hadn't sort of printed off and put by the door um Timothy Bennett's um Timothy Barnett that's right his answers to give to JW. I could only remember one, which was the uh Psalm 89 and about David being the firstborn. Uh yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I said being the firstborn because uh JWs don't believe that Jesus was eternal, but that he was born because it's a free firstborn. So I said, well actually firstborn doesn't mean the firstborn, it just means the one that with the authority.
SPEAKER_03Because David's the eighth born, and it is called the firstborn.
SPEAKER_01So I showed her that in her Bible and um managed to bring that out and then I was racking my back to get a little clear. Remind me what it was. And it was uh I I looked it up after Psalm 102 and and uh Hebrews 1. Yeah, Hebrews 1. Um, but if they do knock on your door, you know do be prepared and and print off those things like I didn't because it is very helpful. I went back and I read it you know after after they left. Yeah and I thought, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. It's about you know Jehovah being uh referred to in Psalm 102. In Psalm 102 as Jehovah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then in Hebrews it says of the Son of Jehovah.
SPEAKER_03And uh you know, uh I I had the experience yesterday of of talking to a guy who actually through Facebook um he was he was involved in a cult, and I just uh I sort of I knew him through some stuff that our church does. We play Touch Rugby on a Sunday, and I you know I knew him and friended him on Facebook. And then he started posting stuff on Facebook that was from a different cult, not from not from JW's, uh uh, but was just a different cult. And and I just, you know, I didn't publicly do it. I wasn't I I wasn't sort of commenting on on his post, but just privately direct messaged him. And he quite angrily kind of responded to those messages to begin with. And then I heard I heard nothing from him for about 18 months. And now all of a sudden he's a Christian. And he's a believer, and and he was saying yesterday to me, um, you know, did you do you do you realize like the effect that it had? You really made me think um 18 months ago when you when you were just messaging me on on Facebook. And I I thought that was really interesting because I just thought I was angering him for that. And he seemed incredibly close to it at the time. But uh now he's uh going great guns as a as a Christian. And and so you you can sort of think what's the point, especially especially when someone's involved in a in a very tightly bound religious belief like a cult. You can really think, what's the point of doing this? But but I've had I've seen people won from cults, and uh and you won't always be warmly received in in your approaches to them, but uh apathy uh does its work and it's worth keeping on sewing. Yeah, and sometimes you know anger is a much better response to this kind of uh apathy and which is why witnessing to someone with religious beliefs already um can actually be so much more invigorating and helpful to your own faith than just you know uh witnessing to the your average sort of secular Brit who you know you might end up talking about Dan Brown and the Da Vinci Code if you're talking to a modern Brit. But if you're talking to someone like a JW or like a Sadiq or Hindu or a Muslim, you're you're forced to talk about you know what is the word of God and is Jesus God and you know what happens when we die and massively important stuff. Um and uh as you're talking about that stuff, it has an effect on people. And I I was just so heartened to see that this guy who is like fully into this cult is now like released and um rejoicing in the grace of Christ. And and and these things happen if we if we just keep on like Live Thorn, keep on with the blunderbutt approach and keep on sowing the seed on all the soils. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well before we go into the interview, um just mention our Christmas video. We're gonna release it uh a bit before Christmas. Do you want to just give uh an overview? Just you know, it would be great if people could uh be ready to share it when it comes out and sort of push it a little further.
SPEAKER_03So Four Kinds of Christmas is a multi-platform Christmas campaign. So we've got the book. Do you have the book? Don't ask us for a book. We'll send you a book for free. There's our offer to you. Which is four kinds of Christmas, and it takes you through whether you are a stand-up or a shopper or a stand-up of a scarage or a stable person, as in the manager of the stable and that kind of thing. So that's that's the book, and it's a tiny little book that you can sort of give away at Carol Services or just you know, stocking filler, that kind of thing. But uh there's also a personality quiz which we uh launch on the web where you can discover what kind of Christmas you are, and then share that on social media. And then we're filming uh the Christmas video which will be out in the next couple of weeks, which again goes through the four kinds of Christmas, and that again is to be shared on social media and perhaps played in churches. So yeah, lots of different ways of getting people to consider Jesus this Christmas. Uh and it's such a wonderful um time of the year for evangelism. There's so many opportunities. And uh you know, I've I'm just finding with the the Four Kinds of Christmas book, it's got a lovely sort of festive cover, and it's it's it's such an easy giveaway. You know, I've given away to all my neighbours, given away to uh um people who work you know around our our offices and things, and people are very glad to receive it. It's a Christmas gift and it looks wonderful and um and you know, hopefully they open up and read. So uh are there ways that you can get behind Four Kinds of Christmas? Uh whether it's sharing it online, whether it's getting the book. Yeah. We'd uh we'd we need your help with it. So uh please uh please be uh active as uh sharers of Four Kinds of Christmas.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Great. Uh okay, well let's dive into the interview then with uh with Clive thought.
SPEAKER_03So Clive, we've uh spoken a little about uh a little bit about the Southampton uh Lighthouse International Church. Have I got that right? Is that the name? That's right. And um and uh a little bit about uh your outreach to uh Muslim, Sikhs and Hindus especially uh in Southampton. How did you get into speaking particularly to to South Asians?
SPEAKER_05Well that goes back into my own uh background. Uh I came to faith from a Roman Catholic background, and when I found I was just uh overwhelmed with joy at this message, and I thought, why hasn't someone told me this before now? But I just wanted to give my life to sharing that with as many people as I could. And I was studying um biology at the time and almost gave up the degree, but prayed about it and finished it in the end. But um shortly after graduating I joined Operation Mobilization and went out to India and I spent three years with them um training, half of it in India and half of it in Coventry, um back in this country. And uh just wanted to tell people that hadn't heard about Jesus the good news that there's forgiveness of sins and a new life, a r a reconnection with the God who loves us um through Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. Okay, and so that was up in Coventry. Um so so OM to India and then to Coventry, and then was it from Coventry down to Southampton?
SPEAKER_05Yes, when I left OM um I was praying about where I should go, and what I always tell our congregation is that I'm from overseas as well because I'm from the Isle of Wight. Ah and uh so I then prayed about the the nearest uh concentration of of Asian people to the island, and that was of course Southampton.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_05And I applied to the churches here and got taken on as a missionary basically to work amongst the Asian community, supported by numbers of evangelical churches in the city originally.
SPEAKER_03Okay, amazing. Well, I'd love to ask you about uh the specific beliefs of Sikhs and Hindus, and and obviously um we we could take weeks and weeks uh on on uh on that topic, but um I mean I know nothing about Sikhism, for instance. So can can you sort of uh give me the give me the headlines on Sikhism?
SPEAKER_05Sure. Um Sikhism started in the fifteenth century with a guy called Guru Nanak, um, in the Punjab area of northwest India. Of course, at that time um there was not India and Pakistan and so on. And the Punjab is sort of borderland area between a Muslim majority uh area and a Hindu majority area, and there was always enmity for centuries between Hindus and Muslims, and sadly they still can be today. And Punjab was right in the thick of it. Uh it was in the Mughal Empire. Um some of the emperors were tolerant towards other religions, others trying to convert people to Islam, sometimes with pain of death. And um so Guru Namak wanted to unite people really, I think. And so he started a religion, Sikhism, which uh Sikhman means to learn, so Sikh is a disciple really. Um Guru just means teacher in uh Hindi. Uh he started a religion that would combine the main elements of Islam and Hinduism. So um from Islam there's uh the fact that Sikhs believe in only one God, who they see as the same god as Hindus, Jews, Christians, Muslims, just one God. And uh they also have no idols or statues. Um so from Islam there's that sort of strand. And from Hinduism, uh still believe in reincarnation, the law of Kama that means that how you live in one life determines what you'll be in the next. Um and they have um a strict sequel be a vegetarian, they certainly won't eat beef, uh and uh that is uh Hindu idea as well, which um has come uh actually from Buddhism originally, but the idea that if if there's reincarnation, if you eat meat you you might be eating great art malls or something, you know, that's right, yes, yeah. So generally view all life as as sacred. Um now it develops slightly differently in that uh Guru Narak was the first of ten Gurus and uh over the years although they were preaching sort of um brotherhood of man and they and uh one of the things they did was to uh teach against the Hindu caste system which divides people, which is why um all Sikhs that uh are have the same surname opposed to the men called Singh is lion and the women call, which means princess, because otherwise from someone's fan name you can you can determine their caste. So it was a way of trying to make everyone equal and do away with the caste system.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Again, sadly that uh hasn't always worked. The Sikh temples in Southampton uh some of them are uh differentiated by caste. And usually still people have arranged marriages within their cas their old Hindu caste, even though that was Sanya Gurunan was a was against.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_05Um and there followed after him another nine gurus, some of whom were killed by the Muslims, um uh because they wouldn't convert to Islam. There was one who was burnt to death on a hot plate uh because he wouldn't convert to Islam. Um and in the end the final tenth guru, uh Guru Gobind Singh, um, formed the Sikhs into what became uh a military brothers at the Khalsa. And uh he started by setting up a tent and saying, I want some volunteers, some young men who are true Sikhs to come with me into this tent to show that they're committed to Sikhism. And he one young man came forward and he took him into the tent and he came out with a sword dripping with blood.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05And he said, Oh now I want the next volunteer. And the other young man came forward, and he went into the tent and he came out with a sword dripping with blood, and five of them went into this tent and Dolphinson came out with a sword dripping with blood. Of course, later he brought them out, he'd killed a goat or something and blood. But the point was that if you're a true seeker be committed to the Khalsa, even to die for it. And so he uh set up a military brotherhood, um, which uh there are five symbols of Sikhism, one of which is to not cut the hair, which is why they wear turbans, another is to carry a sword, which in modern Britain is kinda is is sometimes just a little brooch thing because a sword would be an offensive weapon. Um and and another three symbols are Bengals and so forth. And um they then defended themselves against the Muslims, and when the British turned up not long after this, because I think the castle was started in 1699, um the Sikhs allied themselves with the British against the Mobile Empire, against the Muslims, and later became quite the backbone of the Indian army that in in British India.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_05Uh and so they had a long association with the British and Britain. So when the Empire uh finished and India became independent, and Britain invited people to come across from India to to Britain to work, uh back in the late fifties and sixties. Uh Sikhs were obvious ones because they had uh association with the British for centuries. So the percentage of Sikhs amongst the Asian community in Britain is far higher than the percentage in India itself.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_05In India, uh Sikhs are largely all Punjabis and confined to the state of Punjab, although they've moved around India and uh probably represent mm, maybe three per cent of the Indian population, but I think they're around probably around about twenty-five per cent of the Asian population in the UK.
SPEAKER_03Right. Interesting. Okay. And what's what does the religious life of a Sikh kind of look like?
SPEAKER_05Well, a religious Sikh will um listen to what they call the Bani, which is a um uh chanting of their holy book, which is called the Grand Sah, because what Gobind Singh said that was that after him there wouldn't be any more gurus, human gurus, but rather the spirit of the gurus would pass into their holy book, the Grant Sahab, which they have in the Sikh temples. And so if you visit the Sikh temple, um usually that's in an upstairs room, and uh that's regularly chanted by Gyanis, um Sikh priests who are trained to chant that in what's known as Gurmukia, it's a sort of medieval Punjabi, a bit like Shakespearean English I suppose. Um so not that easy for modern Punjabi necessarily to understand. Uh but they would listen to the uh this maybe nowadays on tape or um whatever, mm-hmm, or CDs, and uh regularly visit the um the temple. Uh part of Sikhism was uh to help the poor. So most Sikh temples will have free food available, simple Indian food, rice and dal lentils, um and so on, available to anyone who comes there. And um recently even in Southampton the Sikhs have done what they call sewa, which means uh service, where they've gone out and uh distributed this sort of food to the homeless. Uh so um yeah. What I found is that most Sikhs uh don't know uh what the Grant side says in a language that they understand, a bit like um numbers of religions that unless a Muslim knows Arabic, then he won't know what the Quran says. Yes, yes first hand. Um and uh similarly Hinduism with uh Sanskrit, the ancient Indian language, uh so um most of them don't know what their book says and are Sikhs or indeed Hindus or Muslims because they were born into that. Um so it's quite a different uh idea to um sort of finding the Christian faith through their own research and so on.
SPEAKER_03So those those who are in the UK, how how do they see Christianity in general?
SPEAKER_05Well, because the Asian religions are um if you like cultural, that you're born into it and and that's it, um originally when they're newly over from the subcontinent, they think uh that Britain is a Christian country. So that just as Pakistan's a Muslim country and just that everyone is Muslim and so on, um, that uh Britain is a Christian country so that everything they see, whether it's the drunkenness or um football uh riots or um the breakdown of family life, they see all of that as a result of Christianity.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um that's why in discovering Jesus, the first question in the the uh booklet that Jesus regi and eyes is is Christianity a Western religion?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because of course it isn't. Uh but that is the major misunderstanding that people from the subcontinent have about Christianity that starts there. And of course that's enough to put people off at the start.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_05I had one Afghan Muslim thinking about the gospel, and after a while he said to me, he said, Well, yeah, I'm I'm interested, but there's one thing I you know I'm still struggling with, and I said, What's that? And he said, Um, oh, the Christian attitude to marriage and old people.
unknownMm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05And I knew what he meant. He meant that the society that we live in of course doesn't uh venerate marriage very much or or necessarily perhaps look after the elderly sometimes. And I said, Look, that's not the Christian attitude. Yeah. That's that's maybe how British society has become. But uh so there's major misunderstandings there about the Christian faith, and that's what the Jesus who Asian eyes book at the Discovering Jesus Course seek to try and deal with. Because when you're trying to reach uh an Asian person with the gospel, uh it's actually very, very easy to talk to them about religion because it's part of their culture, it's something they're interested in, unlike perhaps a lot of Westerners these days, but they are interested in that, and they will be, especially Hindus and Sikhs, will be curious about what uh Christians believe because they work alongside people who they're Christian in Virtual Commons and and uh they see that well, they don't really talk about their faith or even know anything much about it. So if they come across someone who does, they're quite curious. But it's the sort of curiosity that someone might Have about uh Chinese cookery or something. Uh it's oh yes, how do you do it? Because uh uh one of the major beliefs of Hinduism and Sikhism is that all religions are the same. That it they're all valid and all lead to uh God. So uh the fact that they would ask questions about the Christian faith, or even agree to pray with you um i is not necessarily a sign that they're totally spiritually interested.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Or even if they call Jesus' Lord, you know. Well maybe Christian maybe Krishna's Lord as well, and you know.
SPEAKER_05It's possible to go into a Hindu home in in India and find uh pictures of the different Hindu gods, maybe a picture of a Sikh guru, uh even the Kaaba in Mecca and a picture of Jesus, which they got from the Roman Catholics.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um, with the idea that the more spiritual insurance policies you have, the better.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um so um yeah, it's it's it's quite well known, I think, that um uh uh you know the Hindu and Sikh folk will even agree to pray to Jesus' laws. Um, that doesn't mean they're they're they're putting their faith in him. The key, the key always comes if you say, Well, if you're gonna follow Jesus, you'll have to give up uh the Hindu gods or Sikhism.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah. And like how do you how do you address that in in just evangelism?
SPEAKER_05Well, um not straight away. Yeah. If you want to um build a friendship and a relationship, that's really important to um get to know people and so on. Uh but at some point if they are showing an interest in Jesus, serious interest in him, then um we would have to bring up the fact that uh he is the only way to God. And um the gentlest way is to is to talk about our uh shortcomings in sin and say, Well, he is the only one who died as a sacrifice in our place to forgive our sins.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_05Um it's not the best approach to in it in in talking to anyone about the gospel to attack their religion or um, you know, denigrate it in any way. And uh the it says in first Peter three fifteen, always be ready to give an account of hope within you, but do it with gentleness and respect.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So gentleness and respect are key words there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And if we love people, we don't want to unnecessarily offend them and uh insult their cherished beliefs about gentleness, gentleness.
SPEAKER_03What kind of practical advice do you have for for those cultural appropriateness issues? Because you know, we we as um and well myself as an unthinking Westerner might do something unwittingly to to to be offensive. What should we look out for?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean there are some almost hilarious uh sort of instances in some ways. I mean someone asked me once, um, should I invite my Muslim contacts to our Christmas carol service?
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I said, Well, considering you're gonna have mold wine and sausage rolls afterwards, and that singing is haram in strict Islam is forbidden, that's probably not the best service to invite them to. Um so obvious things. Um food is a big thing in in most cultures, and certainly a South Asian culture, uh, but of course if you're trying to reach Muslims uh not to have pork or wine, and with Hindus and Sikhs that the best thing is is vegetarian to be on the safe side.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um when we have our barbecues, we always have um halal meat and vegetarian options available for the guests. Um so and that that's some obvious things. Um another one is how we use the Bible. Um they see holy books as something really special. A Muslim will keep the Quran on a shelf higher than his head and wrap it in a nice cloth and everything. If we have a a tatti or underlined Bible which we then put on the floor uh or something like that, that that's going to cause offense 'cause they think, well, they don't respect their holy book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Uh and so on. Um clothing um most Asian cultures cover up quite a bit. Um in our church, even in the summer, we we don't allow shorts and so on simply because we have uh non-Christian guests coming in.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05And uh culturally not appropriate.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um but having said all of that, uh love covers a multitude of things. And if there's a genuine love and friendship, mm that will go uh a huge way to even covering mistakes that we may make. Yes. Yes and so on. Um so that's really important. And what I would say is as I said before, is that most Asian people are quite happy to talk about religion. There isn't the sort of awkward silence or change of subject that often greets that from modern British people these days.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um the they are quite interested and happy to talk about religious things and to know what we as Christians believe.
SPEAKER_03And when, for instance, a Sikh starts to discover Jesus what what is it about Jesus that tends to kind of capture the heart of of of a Sikh?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think the same as for everyone in in the sense of uh if we've been convicted of our sin by the Holy Spirit, the fact of the love of God in coming in Jesus to to pay the price for our sins and to save us. This is uh huge uh thing. Um uh it was what uh affected my colleague in in Lighthouse International Church, another minister is from Sikh background, called it Raja. And something he's always said is that there have been many gods and gurus and someone have claimed different things, but it's only Jesus who died in our place for our sin and and rose from the dead um to save us. And so um if you ask these folk from Hindu, Sikh, Muslim background why did you come to faith, um this is primarily what they'll say is an assurance of salvation which wasn't there in the other religion. There's one guy in our church from Muslim background, and the other Muslims have often said to me, Why didn't you come back to Islam? He said, Well, if I come back, can you guarantee me I'll go to paradise when I die? And they say, Oh no. Why should I come back?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, good one. And is that so so those areas of conversation about about sin and therefore Jesus being the only saviour, he's the only one who's come, and then issues of assurance. A are they fruitful areas of conversation that you find?
SPEAKER_05Indeed, yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And it does appeal to um a Hindu uh Sikh mindset, the idea of self-sacrifice. Uh when I was in India we we showed a film of the life of Jesus once on a big sort of recreation ground in in uh the biggest city in Gujarat, Ahmedabad, and there were thousands uh there watching this uh film. When it came to the crucifixion, people went really quiet. And when it came to the resurrection, they were throwing things in the air and cheering.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um it it really um Which is what we should be doing. Yes, yeah. That's right. So it really appeals to their um thinking way of thinking.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I I once gave a talk and sort of uh spoke of, you know, who who is like Jesus, this this this Lord who would die for you. And and somebody kind of came and said um was it was it Krishna who c who kind of you know fought a battle and and gave his life?
SPEAKER_05Um Uh no. Krishna incarnates to in the Bhagavad Gita, that's the Hindu sort of one of the Hindu holy books, the main one I suppose, to encourage this fellow Arjuna to fight. Um and so it's quite different. In fact, in the Gita, Krishna says, I have come to destroy sinners.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05Uh so uh he he's encouraging Arjuna to fight these other people who are bad.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05And and of course you can contrast that with Jesus who said they come to save sinners.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, exactly. When I when I checked out the story afterwards, it yeah, it's it seems like the complete opposite of Sometimes Sikh people will say, Well the gurus died for us, and what they mean by that is that as I said before, they some of them were killed for their faith in in Sikhism, and so some Sikhs will see that as you know giving their life for the Sikh community, but it's in a different way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So while we were still enemies, Christ died for us. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Brilliant. Well, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to leave it there, Clive. Um yeah, uh it's been absolutely fascinating to to talk to you about um uh about these various aspects and so encouraging to hear uh uh about uh your church and your work there in Southampton. Um if if people want to want to pray for your work there, uh they they can uh obviously check out uh discovering dash Jesus dot com and we'll put uh a link to uh Southampton Lighthouse International Church on the show notes. But if if we were to pray for you there in Southampton, what can we pray for?
SPEAKER_05Um pray that we would shine with called a lighthouse that we would shine with that light of the Lord God, and that God will continue to bring those people with open hearts to a new life from darkness to light, from everlasting destruction to everlasting life. Uh to finding the joy of a new relationship with God the Father through Jesus. That's what it's all about, that's what's always motivated me to to keep going, and uh that's what we need prayer for. And we do have a website at uh www.lighthouseic.org.uk and we also run a national Asian Christian youth movement called Nordjaban, uh for the 1630 age group that meets up and down the country a few times a year, um, to inspire, develop, and equip the next generation of uh young Asian Christians. And that can be really encouraging for anyone from those backgrounds to find that there are other young Asian people that are following Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And that has its own website, www.norjivan, which is n-a-u-j-av-a-n.com.
SPEAKER_03Okay.com. Brilliant. We'll make sure that's on the show notes uh as well. And uh do check out uh Discovering Jesus through Agent Eyes from Good Book Company. It's uh it's a great resource. Clive, thank you so much for being with us.
SPEAKER_05Thank you, Glenn. It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01And our thanks uh to Clive Thorn, the author of uh Discovering Jesus through Agent Eyes, which is a course in literature um, we'll put a link on the show notes for this episode. If you want to go to the web address for this episode, just go to speaklife.org.uk slash TEP. And this particular episode is TEP118. Also, we'd be very pleased if you give us a rating review on iTunes. And uh this podcast.