Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're talking about reaching out to the new age.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Brian Grivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. This is the show where we encourage you to witness to your friends, to your family, and even complete strangers. And even Muslims.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Mormons. Muslims, Mormons, JWs, New Age.
SPEAKER_04We've been doing this series for a few weeks now. And hope to sort of like get a perhaps some people that have more experience speaking for speaking to these people in to sort of talk and help us really be prepared for when we have a knock on the door or the neighbourhood.
SPEAKER_02I've learnt loads from various people, but it it's funny, a couple of times I've asked sort of the question to some of these evangelists who specialize in reaching out to these different worldviews or to you know give the potted history of of what you know so and so believe. And and they've quite rightly said actually the best way of figuring it out is just to ask them. And just you know, if don't be daunted by the fact I don't know everything about the new age. Okay, well then ask the person who's in the new age. They probably do. And you can explore with them. And that's a that's a much uh healthier thing to do rather than to go away to Wikipedia and you know look it up and you believe it. Yeah, and the person in front of you is like, oh, I don't. Um you know, and so we need to be tr treating people as individuals. So if if all this stuff helps you um to think in certain categories, that's great. But don't don't imagine that every single um you know, witch who's in front of you like believes exactly you know what what what we're saying. Um the best thing to do with such people is just ask them, you know, what is it that you believe, get curious and uh and uh involve yourself in their lives and involve yourself in what it is that they believe, and then you can um speak uh not just to a category, you're speaking to a person, uh which is so important. But um hopefully as we're thinking about these uh things together, we're getting our minds running into the right sorts of areas and the right sorts of categories to be thinking in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean it's quite sort of timely that we're talking about the new age and you know, sort of sort of spiritualists and things that you know, we're coming up to uh Halloween and we're sort of thinking lots of you know horror films on TV and people are sort of like have an interest in this, particularly over this time. Yeah. And uh we've said before about our Halloween video, sort of talking about uh how that actually started in the church and you know how Christ is the light and these things.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah. And I think George is really helpful on this because he he kind of uh he acknowledges that there is uh darkness here, but he's not afraid of the dark. Yes because you know, Luminar Ministries he has the light. And I think I think that's a that's a kind of a healthy thing. You know, it's it's the C. S. Lewis thing who's always, you know, um quoted uh at these moments from the screw type letters in the introduction, he sort of says, you know, there's two dangers that we have with the forces of evil. We either spend all our time focusing on them as though they're you know they're they're the great powers, or we completely dismiss them. And and the healthy thing is to say they are there, but the light is stronger. And I think that that's really what shines through George Osborne's minute ministry with Luminar Ministries is um yeah, he takes it so seriously as these people um in so many of these beliefs are uh are lost. But let's not put them in a different category of lostness. You know, just because you've got a medium in front of you, why are they much more lost than the total materialist that's in front of you or the Muslim that's in front of you? Why do why and why do we like put them in a totally you know different category? Um aren't you know isn't the Muslim and the materialist lost just as the medium is lost? Yeah, they are. And so and so I th I think he brings a kind of a healthy um confidence in Christ that um we don't need to be especially afraid um as as we're engaging with these issues. We we don't want to be fools and we don't want to go in naively, uh, but we don't need to be especially afraid as we engage this uh kind of worldview uh because the light is stronger.
SPEAKER_04Good. Okay, well uh let's let's hear him then and we'll have a chat after.
SPEAKER_02What what are some of the most difficult things to try to communicate um to a new age friend?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess we touched on that a little bit with I guess sin, isn't it? Sin is probably one of the big so I guess the the belief in the new age that we're inherently good, and now here here you are as a Christian saying one we're born into sin, we are, you know, born into Adam, we're we're sin sinners by nature, and so it's kind of opposite their belief system, so that's quite hard to communicate um to say that there is a truth, yes, so there's an absolute truth, um that's very difficult to sort of convey, I think, in the new age.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. How did you do that? Because I've I mean I've got a friend who um she loves Jesus, absolutely loves Jesus, um, but she loves Krishna as well, and um there are you know there are so many other kind of avatars and so many other um expressions of God's love um that she could never she could never say that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. What should what should I say to my friend?
SPEAKER_01Um I I my kind of fallback sometimes is one of my illustrations talking about that is imagine you've got four people and they're sitting on top of a high story building or whatever, and the first person says, Look, if I jump off this building, I'm gonna bounce. And the next person says, No, no, no, no, I jump off the building, I'm gonna, I'm gonna float. And the next person says, No, I'm gonna jump off, I'll be able to fly. And then the fourth person jumps off and says, or is gonna jump off and says, No, I'm gonna hit the floor and I'm gonna splat and I'll I'll I'll die. You know, only one of those four is telling the truth. And I would explain to my friend, well, how do you know which one of those is telling the truth? Um, and that's the question I'd probably try and focus on on with them is well, you know, what would you do? Throw a stone off the building, would you push a friend and see what happens? You know, so you're examining the evidence, aren't you? You're trying to weigh up which is the which is the truth, and and I think that's where I try and get to and say, well, look, let would you let me sit down with you and examine the the truth for for Jesus and why he's saying, Look, jumping off that building is gonna lead to splat, you know, you you don't do it, come this way, you know. Um but it's it's hard it's hard for I think it's hard for that person to to kind of see that an issue, but it's that gently just keep keep going and keep going back to that person prayer. But I think it is putting the putting the truth before them, trying to gently explain the gospel and praying that you know God would open their eyes to that. Um but in everyday life, I mean that's the other thing, isn't it? We do have truths, we do have your friend is gonna press the button to cross the road and is gonna trust in that red light and why?
SPEAKER_02Yeah why you know Yeah, pick and mix works in the sweet shop, it doesn't so much work in the pharmacy. Um there are some things where it really matters what the truth is, yeah. Absolutely. Um and as you talk to sort of Christians about it as well, um, you know, that I I mean I I I sort of feel somewhere within myself that um, you know, I'm very happy talking to a Muslim, very happy talking to a materialist, but somehow if I was talking to a medium that there's something more spiritually dangerous about that. Or I mean I mean I I I would struggle to find any theological justification for that, but but there is that kind of sense that you've that somehow when you're dealing with the occult, you're dealing with a spiritual force that's greater than when you're dealing with someone who's kind of enslaved to mammon. Um should we think through that issue of of kind of spiritual battle and uh yeah?
SPEAKER_01I don't well, I don't think there is a difference, is there, really, in the in the whole scheme. There isn't a you know between an atheist and a and a medium or a m Muslim and a Hindu that's it's basically darkness or light, isn't it really? Yeah, that's the only kind of options, and I think I think it's a trick of the enemy as well to kind of get us in that that fear. So we need to fear a medium or a psychic or and I think as I mentioned earlier, that whole breaking down those barriers. So I think in a sense a psychic or a medium is expecting that from a Christian as well, to to sort of fear them and stay away from them, and so when you actually cross that divide, it it makes such a greater impact because it's people aren't expecting that. Yes. Um but I think in I mean there is scripture, isn't there, that warns quite strongly against going to mediums and going to sorcerers and um but then there's a lot of scripture that talks about don't you know idolatry and liar liars and thought you know, so it it kind of puts them in the same bracket. But I think there's some you know, it is dark stuff, some of it, you know. So in some of these shows, there's people that I tend not to get to engage with kind of know that you're Christians and stay away. Well, you can see them walk past the stand, you can see them trying to almost do spells on the stand, or leave cart cards, so when we come the next day, there's these things around the stand.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So there is a there is a spiritual dimension, but yeah, he that's in you is greater than he that's in the world. There's no need to be afraid of of them, and and I think there's a real emptiness in the new age, and people are just crying out for Jesus, really. So when we engage with them, we don't need to go with fear, we can just go knowing God's got the greater power. You know, I think some Christians worry is, you know, even if I put a hand on a medium to pray for them, is that you know something gonna jump across or you know, yeah. I yeah, I I've nothing untoward has happened to me. I've had no I don't you know, I think there's an oppression in terms of reaching out and doing evangelism full stop, isn't there? But there's nothing I don't think any greater in these places um than perhaps going to a pub on a Friday night, really.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there are certainly false gods involved there, aren't there? Yeah and um yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean So don't my my thing would be don't don't be afraid, go for it, God's with you, you know. Don't need to fear.
SPEAKER_02And what would you say, you know, okay, so let's say you're you know you're a church minister and uh a yoga class wants to meet in your church halls. What how do you start thinking through those kinds of issues?
SPEAKER_01Um so I guess that's uh you've got to take those decisions personally, haven't you? But I think I would very much stay clear of it. Um it's so yoga for me uh as I've worked in this sort of area has been a way so I often think of the devil sort of dropping sweets. So it's like have a little taste of this, you know, try this out, it's harmless. And then it becomes a little bit enticing as you begin to get into yoga, you then enter this kind of slightly more new age world. So my my cousin's quite heavily involved now in the new age, but he was a uh physical trainer, you know, he'd help people in the gym, that sort of thing, and then people would be into yoga, he'd try yoga, and now he's you know, he's taking drugs and going to South America and contacting the spirit world, and you know, it's it's you can see the progression. Um so I know some Christians say, Well, I go to yoga, and while I'm there, I I pray and I you know I'm I'm thinking about scripture, and and I guess they've got to make that decision on their own conscience. But my my advice was why why dabble with it really? Yeah why why get involved and yeah, stay clear. So there's a group near me that have just started up a I think it's come across from the States, but a a group called Praise Moves. So in their church they've started doing something called Praise Moves, and it's based on scripture, and they'll they'll read out scripture through the class and for people to meditate on as they're doing these different stretching exercises, and so there's alternatives out there really.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. And like how would you prepare, you know, or how would you get parents to prepare their children for things like I mean, because you I mean you got into Ouija at school, um, and there are kind of versions of that that go around um not always Ouija, but uh other sort of uh ways of contacting the spirit world or or whatever. What what would be your policy in in trying to prepare kids for this kind of stuff?
SPEAKER_01Um I would say again, like don't don't be afraid, and I think don't almost teach your children if you're Christian parents or whatever to be afraid of the occult because I think it it gives it a kind of intrigue and uh so for me it was like what what is this? What's you know so it kind of draws you in. I think people are naturally quite enticed by by the darkness and by the occult. Um so I just open the dialogue, really talk about it, and I think it's definitely happening in schools. I mean there's a recent um thing called Charlie Charlie where people are using pencils and you know trying to contact the spirit world, and and that was uh going across Facebook and people in schools doing it, and so I think every gener you know there's a new way of doing it and it's gonna be around. So it's just I guess talk talk to children about it, open up the conversation, tell them idiots like me got involved in it and and what happened to me and where I ended up and because that's the the part that got me initially was I thought this was good, it's positive, it's helpful, and the devil's a he's a deceiver, and he'll he'll use every trick in the book to make you think that you know the fruit is pleasurable for eating and actually it just leads to destruction. So it's just war worn but without fear, I think would be my yeah, summary.
SPEAKER_02That sounds wise. Um, I was doing some door knocking on Tuesday and uh got to meet uh a woman called Julie, and she was a really lovely uh woman. She said, I'm a medium, uh psychic, and uh she grew up in the church until 16, and then she got into Baha'i, and then she got into Islam, and then she's describing herself now more as a Buddhist, but um and you know, um and a psychic. Like w if you met such a person, where would where would you want to sort of move the conversation towards? What are some fruitful um areas that you can start talking uh to people about if you if you wanted to witness to them?
SPEAKER_01I think you probably want to so perceptions again. So, what's her perception? So if she's she's been in the church, I might just want to explore that a little bit to be honest, to just try and find out in a sense what you're up against, so what what her experience of church, why why has she gone away from that, what's what's drawn her away from the church, and that might reveal some of the points that you could perhaps talk about in a conversation. So it might be, I mean, you know, God's written eternity on our hearts. I think people are searching for the spiritual, and sometimes churches don't always express that, so maybe she's that's what she's looking for, and so it's trying to explain to that there is that side that God is spirit, that He He is the Holy Spirit, and so I would just try and pull down some of the misconceptions really that people have about Christianity, and and it sounds like she's searching, she's gone from one thing to the next to the next. So maybe sort of push on some of those points, you know. Why have you yeah, why have you gone from Islam to this to that? What what hasn't it given you that you're looking for really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it you know, the classic kind of story with Jesus, the Samaritan woman at the well. Um people are thirsty and they're going to all these different places and trying to show them that because I think people haven't tasted Jesus if Jesus, if they had, then they wouldn't have left. So I think maybe they've been in church and they've not quite met with Jesus. So it's trying to just get them back to that really and explaining who he is and what he's done and Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you say that in evangelism? That's a powerful, powerful line to say if if if you've tasted him, you wouldn't you wouldn't have gone on from him.
SPEAKER_01Is that s the sort of thing that's I've never said that before, Glenn? Yeah, that's the good thing. I can't remember that. Well you're the one who said it, so yeah, but I it's true though, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It's I think they've maybe got something they that's the and that's the thing, they think they've tried Christianity. Yes. So they've been I've tried Christianity, it didn't do anything for me, or but they've not tried Jesus, they haven't experienced Jesus really, they haven't had that relationship with him.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Um but it's that right tried tried Christianity, that's not got the answers, so I'll try this thing. Um so it's trying to show them really I guess it's classic evangelism, isn't it? Show them who Jesus really is and just keep pointing them there and praying that the eyes would be opened or any.
SPEAKER_02And what are the challenges for us as a church? Um, because as as as you say, you know, churches often don't express the spiritual that you're you you're talking about. So how can we be churches that that actually do offer the living waters you know in their fullness in a way that that clearly the the new age haven haven't bought in the past? But do we do we need to change as churches in in in what how we are operating?
SPEAKER_01That's a big question. What do churches need to do? I th I I mean as I look back on my sort of church experiences, there's some styles of churches, I guess, that appeal more to somebody coming from the new age. Um so I think I think we do need to change, and some some churches do need to kind of understand that people are seeking, people don't think the church can provide what they're looking for, and what that what that looks like, I don't know really. It's an ongoing kind of debate really, isn't it? What do we do with church and how does it look for people? And but I think as people come into church from the new age, it's trying not to try not to judge them or get everything sorted out straight away. So your friends might have come to Jesus, but they've still got you know their spell books on the mantelpiece and you go around for dinner one night and it's panic and you you know, oh you've got to destroy these and let's get them in the fire now. And but it's trying to understand people are on a a journey and it's not all gonna happen at once. As I look back on my own, you know, how long did it take before I've really fully got the gospel and understood it as being patient with people um and giving people space and time to work it out for themselves, you know, keep presenting the gospel and keep loving people and don't think we'll go far wrong, but it's that kind of sometimes I think we can get a bit a bit judgmental, a bit kind of too quick to try and sort everything out and yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And how does it kind of affect your own spirituality? I mean, obviously, you've got your own story of your um kind of history with the occult, and now you've got your sort of ministry of outreach to those in the new age. Do you do you see how those kinds of perspectives um uh in some ways deepen your own understanding of of the gospel? Obviously, you know, not that you buy into the occult stuff at all, but but having seen that side of things, does it does it give you different insights into your own Christianity?
SPEAKER_01I think I've I think I've got uh maybe an appreciation for the spiritual battle side of things, I think, and how real that is. Um one of my favourite lines from um Usual Suspects is the the trying to remember the line now, the greatest trick the devil's ever done is convince the world that he doesn't exist. And I think that's true as well in in churches, so we kind of we believe in God, but the devil seems this sort of pitchfork cartoon. type figure that isn't real but I guess I've seen that he's real so I think that gives me a an appreciation for the battle and and an empathy with people in the in the new age you know I think I was I was duped by the devil so I can see how that happens and I think that gives me maybe a bit more empathy when I speak to people with that sort of background. Yeah and just the dangers I think is probably probably the biggest thing that it's it's given me that there is a it's dark and and just how nasty the devil is you know how conniving and and as you walk around some of these New Age shows certainly the first couple of times there's this there's a sort of sadness that you feel that you know there's people sitting there with these sort of metal pyramids on their head holding these things in their hands thinking that they're tuning into the universe you know it's it's sad the devil must be sort of la you know laughing at mocking them and it's it's a sad thing really so I suppose God's given me a real heart for people in that place really a compassion for the lost in that arena and that certainly wasn't the case at the very beginning I thought this is weird and wacky and um but yeah I think my past has definitely helped to see the darkness in it all.
SPEAKER_02And I get I guess as you think about that darkness like two different approaches kind of suggest themselves like one would be okay they have a spiritual power that's enslaving them they need a power encounter bring on John Wimber power evangelism on the one hand. On the other hand you might think oh okay they're they've been duped by this stuff what we need to do is just get them back to the scriptures and steer them clear of that kind of spiritual thing. How do you navigate that debate?
SPEAKER_01Yeah so that's that's one of the hardest things I've found in running teams in the new age so I often um have teams from different churches different backgrounds so from the charismatic end the conservative end and how do you kind of hold those tensions even within the team and that's quite difficult. So one of the things I felt God sort of lead me to and speak to me about was the the spirit and truth you know John 4 you know my people to worship me in spirit and in truth um so it's keeping that tension between yeah people do need to experience God I think do need to have that encounter with God and for it to be a tangible experience you know and I think when I was lifted off the train tracks and I know that not everyone's gonna have that kind of dramatic kind of thing happen but um or even when I I've come back in the prodigal son story and I I believe God spoke in my heart you know I sat there in in tears and I think God was with me and you know I encountered God through that prodigal son story and um so I think people need massively need the truth and massively you know we need to point people to the scriptures and that's my sort of background really that's where I come from so I think that's hugely important but I think we can end up getting too paranoid and too worried about the spiritual stuff as well that actually people do need to experience God. So sometimes I mean wacky story that we had at one of the shows there was a guy who came up to our stand he literally just stood sort of in front of our stand arms to his side and um my colleague said you okay can we help you know he's just sort of staring into the stand and he said I've been told to come here. Right and I said um who's told you to come here thinking maybe someone from another stand I said he said well there's the spirit guide has told me to come here and so I said well you know what does that mean he said well I I I'm in tune with the spirit and I it tells me when to go left and when to go right and it's told me to come here because he says you've got a message for me. Well exactly they just jump into the boat the fish just jump into your boat this exactly so it was like yeah come and sit down I think I think we've got a message for you so I guess in that it's explaining to him the gospel isn't it the truth of the gospel and um so it's both and it's holding that tension um how how we do that is difficult I think and I think we can go too far one way and too far the other so it's I think it's trying to keep a balance and I've I've found that difficult so I've done some training in uh for Christians and been talking about how we take the truth and I've been quite heavily criticised for that quite heavily you know this is too doctrinal and too then I I I'd be saying right we need to pray for people in this new age and they need to encounter God and I I would receive criticism that we're not giving enough truth and so it's trying to keep that's been one of the tensions that I've had through this sort of minute trying to keep keep keep both together.
SPEAKER_02Yes yeah well good on you for doing that because yeah it's it's got to be in spirit and in truth hasn't it um what are what are the blessings of of this kind of ministry I'm sure like like you talk about the spiritual battle and you and you see the darkness what what are the blessings of doing well that last story I share that guy sort of coming up you you get those sort of highlights um and you'll know from sort of knocking on doors and um doing stuff in eastbourne that it's it's it's cut hard work isn't it you know people don't want to hear the gospel and don't so having these amazing kind of moments where people I mean as you said the fish are jumping in the boat is like this is brilliant it's exciting um and I think they just stories of that woman having that dream of seeing people that are a lot of people that go to the shows are are hurt so maybe someone's died or you know they're looking for answers and just being able to minister to people in that situation and tell them that there is hope and there's answers and and this is one after the other so through a through a show might start at nine o'clock in the morning till sort of six o'clock in the evening and we'd have three tables with two people on each table and they're pretty busy throughout the whole day.
SPEAKER_01So you're probably you know sixty seventy eighty people through the day that you're sort of praying for and lots of amazing stories that come out and so yeah they're the blessings really and those are the things that sort of keep you going and keep coming to faith. So I've had remember one lady um vaguely remember talking to her at the stand praying for her she was a medium and gave her a a a leaflet Christian leaflet and didn't think anything more of it and then I think I was somewhere about two years later and I was speaking somewhere and this um lady came to me afterwards and added me on Facebook and her friend found me on Facebook saw this video and said oh it's you you know you you prayed for me two years ago and gave me this leaflet and you know it really spoke to me I went home that night and I prayed to God and it you know it just began a journey in in her life so it's just an encouragement to to keep sowing the seeds and who knows what God's going to do with those and you know people are coming out of out of these dark places so that's makes it all worth it when you sort of hear stuff like that and it's you know people are coming to faith. That's amazing. So how can people find out about Lumina? So we've got a website Luminarministries command um so very welcome to go to that and my story is in a book now called Out of Darkness. Great um it should be available online and people want to get hold of that and use that for for people that are in the new age and to just warn people I guess that look this this happened to this guy and this is this is where he's ended up now and um fantastic fantastic well it's been great having you on the programme George thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for having me very kind of you so it's been good to talk to you and yeah keep going with what you're doing and keep trying to share the gospel.
SPEAKER_02Oh you too brother okay God bless bye man.
SPEAKER_04So that uh concludes the interview with George Osborn from uh Lumina Ministries dot com.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Yeah and you can sort of see a video of his testimony and also you can get his book about his testimony and um and check out some of the other stuff that they do in reaching out to to the new age can you tell us what we're gonna do next time so uh we've got two more major sort of faith and worldviews we're gonna be engaging with uh Hinduism and Sikhism.
SPEAKER_04And so we're gonna be uh talking to some experts in the field there those uh who've been engaging with uh uh Hindus and Sikhs for uh for many decades and getting their wisdom on uh on how to reach out with a lot of craft great well after this uh this series we've we've had a number of uh different uh the Muslims and Mormons the JWs and now uh the new age uh we've got a few in the can do go to the website and uh listen back if you haven't had a chance to uh to get the previous ones just go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep 44 and also we wanted to mention again the Halloween video which is relevant for this time of year and also the remembrance video to end all wards video coming up for remembrance.
SPEAKER_02That's right there was another turn out and uh yeah thanks very much for listening and see you next time. Bye