Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we're talking about reaching out to the New Age.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast. Encouragement to speak light to a needy world. With Greg Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We're uh looking this time about uh speaking to New Age people about uh Christ, an interview that you did um a few days ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. So I spoke to George Osborne of uh Lumina Ministries, so he's got a great story of uh how he himself was uh saved out of kind of occultism and that kind of stuff, and about how he reaches out to the new age today. And uh so he'll let us know uh what sort of the common denominator is in in sort of new age, various new age beliefs, because uh obviously there's there's so many different strands to it. And also how the gospel speaks uh into those situations.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, well uh before we go on, uh I wonder if you like listening to the event of this podcast. Uh we'd really appreciate writing a review on iTunes that helps us to get seen by more people. Just go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep and uh you should have the links directly there.
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SPEAKER_04Also we've got uh you've got some some things coming up uh for Christmas. You've got uh your book, The Four Kinds of Christmas, yeah, which is uh going alongside with a website uh videos.comsofchristmas.com where you can do the personality quiz, you can watch some videos, you can get the book.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, a multi-platform Christmas campaign uh trying to reach out. So uh check that out and uh yeah, share Halloween-y stuff if you're listening in time for Halloween and you can share Remembrance Day stuff as well with uh Remembrance Day video. Yeah, so lots lots of resources that we've produced um that can be used at at these sort of seasonal times of opportunity.
SPEAKER_04Okay, well let's turn to the interview then. Um do you know or have you met many sort of new age people on your travel?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sure. I mean, uh in fact just uh I think the the the day before I interviewed George, uh I I was speaking to a woman who described herself as a medium, and um you know, she said up until 1617 she's been sort of going to church and then she tried out Islam and she's tried out the Baha'i faith and she's tried out Buddhism, but she sort of settled on she thinks she's a medium and yeah, and so uh but but we had a very, very good and warm and open discussion about who is Jesus and that kind of thing, and and she was very open to that, and very open to uh coming and checking out things in church or and you know, in in our church we've seen, you know, people from from that kind of community come to faith in Christ. So, yeah, absolutely. And and I think uh it's a real blind spot if we only ever think that the non-Christian world is made up of Richard Dawkins and stuff. Yeah. Let alone a minority of non-Christians. Uh and there are so many people who believe in spooky stuff and they wouldn't they wouldn't even know you know what more to talk about. But but they believe in ghosts. And they believe in reincarnation, and they believe in all sorts of sort of spiritual realities. And and I think I think both kinds of belief are absolutely right and far more common, actually. Sort of secular humanistic type and a totally materialistic kind of Richard Dawkins type type atheist. So yeah, we need we need to be thinking about these kinds of categories and reaching these kinds of people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Good. Okay, well uh let's listen then.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm here joined uh by the wonders of technology by uh George Osborne, uh evangelist, uh helping to run uh Lumina Ministries there in Woking. How are you doing, George?
SPEAKER_01Very well, very well on this sunny afternoon.
SPEAKER_02Is it sunny and working?
SPEAKER_01It's sunny well, it's always sunny and woking.
SPEAKER_02It's always sunny on the Sunshine Coast. That's that's true. Down here in Eastbourne. Um yes, no, our Australian family think it's it's it's hilarious that we're called the Sunshine Coast, but uh Yeah, it doesn't quite compare, does it? It doesn't, no. The Sunshine Coast in Australia is about five miles from the surface of the sun. And uh you can hear your skin audibly crackling, but um not not so hearing. Not so hearing not quite that hot, though. Now, George Osborne, that it that that used to be a fine name, didn't it? That used to be a strong, strong name until about five years ago, didn't it?
SPEAKER_01Well, even longer than that, because George Osborne was Shadow Chancellor as well for for a couple of years. So yeah, I've had that that tag following me around for a few years now.
SPEAKER_02Man, you didn't you did not get lucky there. I didn't a popular man, that's the problem. Oh well. You carry it you carry it well. Thank you. You you bring glory to the the Osborne name, but uh it's spelled differently though, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01So think slightly I think he's got an E on the end of his Osborne. Mine's mine's not, so there is a difference. That's good. So you don't get people stand apart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you don't get people googling you and sending hate mail and no.
SPEAKER_01No, no, but I do think sometimes when I turn up to speak somewhere, I wonder what who people think they're gonna stand up and know.
SPEAKER_02He's not as solid on the economy as I thought he'd be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I had quite a funny one recently, actually. I had um I send out a newsletter and my local MP must be on I must have got on my list somehow automatically. And you can see who opens your email.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I saw that he'd opened it about 40 or 50 times. I was thinking, why has he opened my and then it suddenly dawned on me as a conservative MP and there's my email talking about my Christian faith. I think it probably did the rounds in the Conservative office for a few hours.
SPEAKER_02Maybe.
SPEAKER_01That would be interesting, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Make the use of every opportunity, yeah. Cool. So, George, tell me a little bit about your own story, so how how you came to know Jesus for yourself.
SPEAKER_01Um, well, I wasn't brought up in a Christian home, so I I pretty much lived in woking most of my most of my life. Um parents' kind of philosophy, I guess, growing up was just follow whatever makes you happy in life. That was the kind of philosophy in the home, and um my dad, he was a an alcoholic unfortunately, and it just meant that growing up, I guess I didn't didn't have a huge amount of discipline at home. Both very loving parents, but just I suppose mine's a story a little bit of getting involved in some of the wrong stuff fairly early on in life. Um so at the age of about eight, smoking and ten, beginning to get involved in sort of soft drugs at school and kind of just going down that trajectory really, just lots of silly mistakes and um especially as I sort of look back now, I think of this stuff you know, I see sort of young people around now and think blind, that was me me at that age doing this stuff, but um so um became when I was a teenager at s at sort of local secondary school, somebody introduced me to a Ouija board. Um and I was kind of introduced to that, told that you know you can contact dead people through this game, and initially just thought this is a load of rubbish and you know what they're talking about. I didn't really believe in anything supernatural at that stage in my life. I just thought, you know, it's what you can see with your eyes, what you can touch, that was that really. Um but I played this game. I thought I'd could wind my mates up and have a bit of a laugh, and so we set up this this game, and but fairly quickly on as we started to play the game, there's information that was coming back that I realised that nobody else knew, so there's bits about my family, um bits about things that had happened in my past, and so I I I very quickly realized this is a little bit there's something behind this, and actually became quite quite excited by it, quite enthralled by it, and addicted to it. So we were playing it all the time after school, even in school. Um and just became very embraced in it to the point where I thought after a while, could we could we try and invite these spirits to to come inside us so we don't have to set up this board game and we look f fairly darf, I remember the day quite well actually. I'm we're in my mate's um kitchen and we looked fairly daft because I had a sort of glass up to my ear and speaking to these, so it just looked ridiculous, really, and nothing kind of dramatic happened initially. Um but I guess it was a a few days later, just this kind of new, new inner voice, you know. We all have this sort of internal dialogue. I guess it was it was that a a kind of new voice that had attached to that, and I could you know, it would tell me stuff, it would give me information about things, it was generally I thought actually it was quite helpful. Okay. Um so it would tell me stuff about exam papers, so I'd have this conversation with this thing in my head, and it would give me answers and um and it was excit exciting. So it's a you know, people at my school knew what was happening.
SPEAKER_02Was there anyone telling you about this stuff, or were you just researching it in the library, or or like like how how are you coming to know about this stuff in order to invite spirits into you? Didn't was there a book?
SPEAKER_01I think no, no, I think it was probably just films, you know. You sort of watch horror films growing up and um you see some of this stuff, I guess people at school a bit older had been doing Ouija boards and said, you know, this is how you set the game up, and and to be honest, the whole inviting spirits was more a an experiment. So I remember we'd actually ask whoever it was we were talking to, you know, is this possible? Do we have to play the game? And you know, the answer would come back yes, so we'd so we just tried it really.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01Um so I d I mean I don't think we knew at all what we were getting into. It was just quite naive, you know, a bit of excitement, and and that was it really. It gripped us and so um yeah, as this kind of went on, I get you know, it's positive, helpful things, but um found myself outside a local church, local Anglican church, with these two mates I was doing this with, and we were just being the nice boys that we were, throwing stones at the building and causing trouble, shouting, and and this man came out from the the church, just a a kind of lay worker, if you like, someone helping out with the youth group.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and he began to chat to us and was really kind actually, and began to talk to me about Christianity, and I gave him a pretty hard time. Didn't want to know. But I remember him just sort of saying, Look, can I pray for you? And I was quite surprised. No one had ever ever prayed for me. And so he prayed, and and at the end of his prayer he just said, In Jesus' name, and it was as soon as he mentioned the name Jesus, it was like there was a a kind of reaction in me, an involuntary sort of reaction, and he thought what's going on, and so began to invite us back to the church and said, I'd love to pray for you again, and and that went on over a number of weeks. Um and I basically believe I was I was possessed by demons now looking back as I've you know looked through the Bible and I think these were evil spirits because as people prayed for me, there was these sort of strange languages coming out. There was I mean it was like something you see in a film, really. It's quite quite scary. And I know sort of talking about it, it's quite weird stuff to be talking about, it's an unusual testimony, and I I know you're you know, people listening to your podcast probably can't see me, but there's a kind of perception maybe this is stuff that doesn't really happen in England, it doesn't you know I'm I'm from a fairly normal-ish middle class white family, you know, this isn't sort of the normal thing that happens, but this is it it happened to me, and in many ways I'll try and escape my story because I you know in in the context we're in, it's a weird story, but I can't I just feel compelled by God to share it really because it's true.
SPEAKER_02And I can't escape what happened and as you do share it, do you find that others say, yeah, me too?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, quite often. Yeah, quite often. And a lot of people that I think feel misunderstood with this kind of story, and people think they're a bit weird. Is this a mental health thing? Is this drugs? You know, you talked about drugs where you just hallucinate what was gonna you know, there's we try and explain it away, I think, in a kind of especially in the Western context of that sort of enlightenment, you know, we we don't have supernatural, this can't fit in, this it does this doesn't compute. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um but yeah, there's lots actually as a as I go around and share the story, it's definitely people come out of the woodwork and um so oh so you're so you're going back sort of week after week, and this this guy is kind of praying with you, sharing stuff about Jesus. What's what's ha what's going on?
SPEAKER_01Exactly that really. So he he also got a group at the church to to pray with him. So um we'd go along to the Sunday service in the evening and then hang around afterwards, and people would pray for us and with us. Um and it got quite scary, you know, put sort of people holding in these almost like fits as people prayed for us, and um and then I guess the sort of pinnacle moment as I look back in my kind of conversion really was um I was chasing a friend down a railway track not far from the church one night. We sort of hung around in a park near there, um and these demons basically lay me down on this train track. It and it's hard to explain because basically I had I had control of my mind, I know what was going on, I could kind of think straight if you like, but I couldn't control my physical body. Um and I was lying, I was laid down on this train track with a group of fens who had stood above on a sort of like footbridge that went over the railway line, and they were just screaming, what are you doing? you know, get up, get up, because there was a train coming towards me on that that line, and I couldn't move, but before the train hit me, it was as though someone literally grabbed grabbed the hold of the back of me and just pulled me up off that train track, and then had this the train just sort of going past the front of my face. And and the reason I always mention those friends when I share my story that were on the bridge is is to this day, you know, they can all testify that they were there, they saw this thing happen, and there was Christians there, there's non-Christians in that group, um, because there was no one stood behind me, there was no human being that did that, and it I think that's my kind of pinnacle moment really of I think God's pulled me up off that train track, how he's done it, what's gone on, I can't explain everything, but yeah, um and I think actually looking back now as well, it's uh it's a great picture of of the gospel, actually, because it's a position, isn't it? I was in captivity on the railway line, I was trapped, I was facing death, and then you know, I'm brought brought back to life and set free. You didn't do it yourself. I did nothing at all. Yeah, exactly. Amazing and then that was I ran to my Christian friend's house, that man that had been praying for me that night, really. I realised this is kind of this is more serious, this isn't a game, this is life and death. And said I needed help. And it was the kind of you know, we've been praying for you, but this is more about your decision. You need to you need to call out to Jesus and ask him to save you and to rescue you, and so I did in in his living room. Um he's actually sent me a letter that I I sent to him not long after that night, actually, recently. And it it's just thanking him for that night because I l I I remember arriving at his house terrified, you know. I literally I could have died that night and I would have been in hell basically, I would have been in there for eternal, you know. It's literally a a breath I would have been there. So um, and it was such a change, you know. I prayed to Jesus. That was the first time I think I prayed, and it was lit from that moment it left whatever was going on, whether it is oppressing me, how possession works. I I'm still trying to struggle working that out, and yeah, but whatever it was, whatever that was, you know, around me left, and amazing. So that that was my kind of my journey or my beginning of my journey of faith, really.
SPEAKER_02How brilliant. So who th this guy who'd been praying for you, he was a lay worker in the church. Did he have any experience of dealing with people, you know, with demonization or anything like that? No, he's just making it up as he goes along as well.
SPEAKER_01Uh effectively, yeah. So he'd he'd had an experience actually two weeks before that, he'd been on a Christian conference and he would describe himself as as slightly lukewarm in his faith before that, but something really got hold of him faith-wise, literally two weeks before. And he was kind of in an on-fire state for God and really re-sort of dedicated his life to to God and just feels that God had prepared him for that moment when I arrived, really.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but the chapter is funny enough, the chappa the vicar at the time of that church did have some background in dealing with people that had got involved in the occult, and I think he did a songs of praise thing once as well back in the day. So that was quite I mean, looking back, I think I mean that's quite unusual. There's not like you say, not many churches or people that have that experience. So, you know, why was I there at that church that night, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right time, right place, and and and I guess they kind of to their great credit, didn't kind of flinch from you or get freaked out, but sort of patiently taught Jesus to you and and uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So we gave an assembly at school, and I remember look lots of people at my school became Christians, you know, there was quite a buzz around the church at that time. People said it caused a bit of a storm because I didn't quite know how to deal with these kind of lads that have suddenly come out of nowhere. How what do we do? There was some some in the church that you know didn't quite get what was going on, and um but this guy set up, I remember setting up a little sort of youth group and that we'd meet once a week and you know do Bible studies and yeah, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_02So th so there's there were there's more than you coming to Christ in this in this time?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so there was there was two or three of us that were involved in the cult the cult quite heavily. Um and we became Christians and then a number of others began coming to church as well from that. We gave an assembly at school and people wanted to know what was going on, and yeah, it was quite a quite a buzz really, quite an excitement. Wow. Um Wow. And you were how old at this stage? So still a teenager, so that's probably thirteen, fourteen. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And how are how are family responding to this?
SPEAKER_01Um, now, yeah. Um so I I mean my journey went on from there. I kind of uh ashamed to say, wandered away from church not long after, six, twelve months after that experience.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01As a girl at school, you know, things just I thought this was more fun, I started reading the Bible. It it it felt like well, a lot like rules and things that I had to do, and I I thought I wanted to do them, you know, God had done this amazing thing, but I kept mucking up and I didn't really fully get the gospel, I don't think, that that God was for me still, and I just I thought he must be so disappointed, and I I kind of just drifted away really. Um and just very much the prodigal son story, drifted empty, went travelling, did all sorts of things really, um but empty in life, and eventually came back about ten years ago and walked back into the same church and actually heard the prodigal son story, and and that's when God kind of re-gripped me and I began to look into the Bible and study it for myself and get the answers really, and and I think probably since then that's that's when it's affected my family. So um I think they've seen me wandering all those years and getting involved in drugs again and alcohol. I ran a bar in Thailand, I was, you know, just all over the place really. Um and now they've seen me come back to church and really find my life in Jesus, and you know, I've given up work and you know, do this ministry now, and they've seen such a difference in me. So my my mum's not long been a Christian now, so probably about three years ago. Wonderful, yeah. Yeah, praise God.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and my sister, probably just before her. So she's she's kind of on a journey of faith as well, and it's been amazing, really.
SPEAKER_02That's a fantastic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I know that's not always the case, is it, with families and well, it's you know, God's not done with any of them.
SPEAKER_02We uh we keep on praying, don't we? Um so so how have you gotten into what you're doing now? D describe for us a a little bit about um your day to day work today, and then then yeah, I'll ask sort of how how you kind of got into that.
SPEAKER_01So I'm based at a project now in in Woking called the Lighthouse Project. So I run a ministry there called Lumina Ministries. Um and that kind of started up initially when I was invited to get more involved in new age work. So um sometimes take teams into new age shows, so mind, body, spirit festivals, and some of these um shows hold big exhibitions in in London and take over places like Earl's Court and Olympia, and so we we sometimes take a stand into those sort of places and and have a sort of four foot you know stand or whatever place that we can get hold of and and go in and try and reach out with with Christ into those places really. So hence the name Lumina, trying to take light into into the new age, so the light of Christ. So it's it's I mean, even that name I guess is a kind of little bit of a play on it. Sounds a bit new agey, but we're trying to trying to thread Christ into that.
SPEAKER_02And so that's yeah, it's quite he had the name first, didn't he? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the light of the world, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's a that's that's the point. I think is exactly they've sort of taken over stuff and so it's trying to take back some of that ground, really.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. So what I mean, what do you do? So so let's say there's a there's a big uh exhibition hall and that kind of thing, and to the left of you, there's I don't know, mediums to the right of you, there's spiritualists, I don't know. Like, like what's what's the feel of the exhibition and and what are you trying to do in the midst of that?
SPEAKER_01So the exhibitions they're they're very big. Um so there's hundreds of stands of various different things, so ranging from uh selling milkshakes or fruit juice makers to witches selling spell books to like you say, psychic stands, mediums. I think one of the shows opposite us we had a a a group that was selling um cushions that if you put your hands on them in a certain way, you get in tune with the spirit world. And so I mean there's all there's all manner of different things, yoga, there's yoga exhibitions, so sometimes you have different stages around the exhibition, so people will be sharing their ideology and or maybe teaching people how to do yoga or art, you know, but through the sp spiritualists and it's just a whole eclectic mix of different things, really. So we're we're kind of in the middle of of some of those, and so we'd have maybe two or three little cafe-style tables at our stand, okay. Um few chairs around the table. I usually take a a bowl, so we have a bowl in the middle of our table, and and we've got cards in there, and on the sort of top side of the card is is Hebrew symbols, um, and then on the underside of the card is Bible verses. Um so we just invite people. My sort of approach is to invite people to come in and sit down. Um we'd love to pray for you, we'd love to chat to you, and all that we do at our stand is free, which which in that kind of setting is quite unusual, actually. Most stands are charging something or trying to sell something.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then as people sit down, we explain, you know, we're we're Christians and we we're gonna pray to God the Father and through Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Is that okay? And um, and most people accept that. Um and then I I would often invite people to take a card, you know. It sometimes helps me to know something to pray around for you, and and then on those cards are just various different verses, really classic kind of gospel verses, you know, John 3.16, or come to me, all you who are weary, these kind of and it it's a great platform to be able to then talk about the gospel or talk about what that means, or you know, we've had people who've come to the show who maybe they've I don't know, they've had a dream the night before, and then you pull out a verse and they've been dreaming about the you know this river, and you pull out Jesus is the water of life, and you know, so it's they're quite good platforms to kind of get into conversations, and literally it's it's it's that trying to engage with them and and show that there is there is a truth really, there's a there's a Jesus that wants to know them and brilliant, and just trying trying to love them really. That's the other I mean one of the things that when I first got involved was um I guess historically as Christians we've often stood outside shows like that, mm-hmm maybe praying against it, and and you know, I think that's that's got a place, but I think it's trying to get in the middle of it and try and bring Salt and Light right in the middle of that show rather than yeah standing outside and yeah, yeah. So that's what we're trying to do.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. And have you had some good experiences at at the shows?
SPEAKER_01Um, been amazing, really. Yeah, I mean, I I I think one of the things that I found in going into these shows is people have got a real level of faith. There's a belief in the supernatural, there's uh you don't have to convince people that there's there's something else out there. Um so you can start a little bit further along. Yes. Um but yeah, I mean one story, the last sort of show I went into, there was a lady who um sat down. I mean, it's this classic evangelists pray for this kind of opportunity. And they they uh don't always come, but this is amazing. So she's she'd had a prayer about Jesus the night before, literally the night before, knocking on her front door. Wow, and she went down to her front door, and on her front door there's a bit of glass by the side, and she looked through the glass and saw that it was Jesus, but he had a a crown of thorns on his head, and she didn't know what that meant, she was quite scared. Wow. So she didn't open the door, this is all in her dream. Wow. And then she sat down there saying, You know, it's amazing that you're here, you Christian. I didn't think there'd be Christians in this sort of place, you know, but I don't know what this dream meant, you know, what does it mean? And so we're obviously able to to explain that with her and and go through that with her and you know, explain what the thorns meant and just open the scriptures and and talk to her. And it was just a a divine moment, really, and it was her time, and she wanted to to, you know, we're saying, Do you want to open the door to Christ? That's basically what he's wow, yeah. He wants to know you, and yeah. So there's amazing stories like that that that that happen. And there's you know, let's talk about the flip side where you get somebody sitting down and there might be a medium and they give you a stone cold stare, and they they let you pray, and you know, we pray in twos or threes usually, and sometimes I might have my eyes open, and this my colleague will be praying for this medium, and they're just staring at him with his eyes closed and just hard as nails, and yeah. So you kind of get both extremes, but it's you um some amazing stories in there as well. So I'm I found it very open, ground much more open than I thought it was gonna be. I thought I was gonna be going in, it's gonna be a battle, and you know, we're gonna be fighting, and actually God's given me a real heart to to love the people that are in front of you. Um and we've had people sit down and say, Oh, you're not gonna you're not gonna like me, you know, I'm a witch, and uh and say, Well, no, God, you know, God God loves you actually, you know, and it's you know, God wants to know you, and yeah, you know, amazing to hug a witch and say, Yeah, Jesus loves witches. Yeah, Jesus loves witches, yeah. Um but yeah, lots of stories and lots of encouragements along the way.
SPEAKER_02So can you put your finger on like is there a common denominator kind of belief in in the new age movement? I mean, obviously it's so eclectic, as you say, you've got you've got witches and you've got mediums and you've got all kinds of people. Um what what tend to be the common things that that that they hold together in terms of their beliefs?
SPEAKER_01Um I guess it's very very postmodern, you know, your your beliefs are sort of fine for you, and these are my beliefs, don't don't come in here or don't express any sort of absolutes. Um that's that's probably I would say one of the key things for someone in the new age. Um man is kind of central, so there's that sort of you know, evolution, not just in the sort of physical sense, but spiritually, so we're we're all evolving, and you know, eventually we're gonna be like God, you know, we're kind of getting to that stage. Um I think that's probably a a common thread. Um God's impersonal, so it's not a kind of named God or a personal thing, it's it's a force or a spiritual thing, or uh. Um, so it's very very loose. Mm-hmm. Um yeah, I'd say those are some of the key things.
SPEAKER_02And and that humanity is not full, and we're we're sort of the top of the evolutionary tree, aren't we?
SPEAKER_01So we're we're quite that we're yeah, that's exactly so. That's yeah, that's probably another key one actually. There's no so we're not sinners, we're we're basically good. Yes. Um we mess up from time to time, but that's because we're we're evolving and you know, we're eventually gonna become godlike and perfect, and you know. Um so that's quite yeah, that's quite a key thread actually, yeah, that we're not we're not good. I mean, we are good, you know, that's what they believe. We're m basically good. So if you're coming in here and saying we're not good, that's quite a difficult, yeah, conversation to have with someone in the new age.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And in terms of good and evil, you know, are there are there such things as is sort of you know objective good and evil?
SPEAKER_01There there I there is a kind of so when I've talked to people about so if I'm sharing my testimony in the new age context, there is this sense that what I get how they sort of compute what happened to me is why I just got involved with bad spirits. Yes, okay. And I needed to get involved with good spirits, and you know, the spirits that they're with are good and they're healthy, and so you might hear people talk about black witches and white witches, you know, there's a kind of good and a bad witch, if you like. There's an e evil one and a a witch that's actually helping and trying to do good in the world, and um, but a good question is where how do you measure that standard? Who's who where does that come from? Who decides what's good and bad? And so they don't have an absolute to sort of measure that with, so it's where does this come from? So they've got quite good, you know, it sounds quite good on the service, but as you dig back a little bit, you know, where does this come from?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Often that's a great question, I think, to ask someone in the new age, where does this come from, or even where does your power come from? If you as you go behind the door, there's there's nothing there, they don't quite know where it's coming from or what it really means.
SPEAKER_02Or interesting. And what are the what do they think of Jesus in general?
SPEAKER_01In general, I think uh he he's a kind of guru, you know, he's uh he's quite a good guy. Um he represents love, you know. Often you'll hear things like, Well, Jesus is great, he taught turn the other cheek, love your enemies, you know, they they love kind of attaching to that. So there's a real message of of love, I think, in the new age and peace, and so they sort of attach some of that to Jesus, but tend to take out um Jesus when he might talk about hell or you know, might talk about him being the the only way or way, the truth and the life. Um so it's a kind of pick and mix Jesus, so they'll take out some of the bits that don't agree, but Jesus is definitely a good platform to be conversing on, and yes. Often I found people in the new age will be quite anti-church but pro pro-Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it can sometimes be a better place to start.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because how do they tend to think of Christians in Christianity?
SPEAKER_01Generally, um, sceptical, some have had bad experiences going to church, maybe they've been involved in some new age stuff, and and Christians have been or they've perceived that Christians have been quite judgmental of that, and I guess obviously rightly so. You know, we don't want people getting involved in the occult, but sometimes we can be so quick to to shut that down that we shut the person down and we shut the dialogue down and they feel bruised and hurt and kind of walk away from church. So that's quite a common experience that somehow they've had an experience either growing up or um in the recent past where they didn't find the answers in church and are quite anti. Um how do you get over that? That's a good question, it's a really good question, and something I'm constantly sort of struggle with and try and work out. Um I personally sometimes it depends on each situation, the person you're talking to, but I'm I'm trying to do away with some of that damage sometimes, and if if there has been something that's that's happened that's wrong to say sorry, you know, I'm sorry if you've been hurt in the past, and I'm sorry if that's been someone from the church, but look, this is this is what we're trying to do, this is why we're here. Um and it's trying to build bridges really. I think that's one of the things as well that people don't expect Christians to be in there, so that's that's a surprise for them straight away. And this the second surprise is that I'm not coming out and saying to them, Oh, you're gonna hell, stop this straight away, and you know, trying to sort of browbeat them. I'm I'm trying to come with a um a loving attitude and a non-judgmental attitude, but while trying to obviously communicate the truth of the gospel that they are lost and they are in sin, and and that is that's the hard bit really, is trying to get that across. But one of the ways I found very helpful is to when talking about sin with someone in the new age is is to use kind of common illustrations. So my favourite really has been marriage. So if I tell someone, you know, look, you've sinned, or what you're involved in is a sin, or um that doesn't go down too well. But often if I talk about, you know, are you in a relationship yourself, do you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or whatever, you know, how would you feel if your boyfriend went off and slept with different people and just did what he wanted, and more often than not, people get okay, yeah, I'll be upset and that would hurt, and and then trying to explain, well, look, that's that's God, He's made you and He's created you and He loves you and He's desperate for a relationship with you, and and we're going to these other things instead of coming to Him and it it hurts him and it upsets him and it hurts you as well, ultimately, going to all these other places and so I found that to be quite a helpful way in to begin to talk more about sin and Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Unfaithful and using biblical categories. I mean that's yeah that's far more the biblical category, isn't it? Unfaithfulness and spiritual adultery and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_04So that was uh George Osborne from Lumina Ministries talking to you, Glenn, uh a few days ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, what a story.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And we've kind of cut him off again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We've got a habit of cutting people if they go on. Next up, we'll uh we'll hear the second half of the.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but uh I I'm just uh really interested and encouraged by his story. I mean, on the one hand, you've got uh how the Lord redeemed him out of it and uses his story to bless others. Um I think that's a beautiful sort of picture of redemption. But also just kind of the the ordinary way in which uh sort of youth workers and pastors and that kind of stuff in his youth just didn't flinch back from this kind of stuff and uh engaged with him and prayed with him, and they didn't know all about you know, the occult and that kind of stuff. But uh neither did they run away from it when they prayed with him and and and I thought that was a really encouraging kind of model for us. Um that that yeah, let's uh let us engage with people from these kinds of backgrounds as we would engage with anyone. Not with fear, but with a knowledge that that you know Christ the Lord is stronger, yeah. Um and that in him we've got everything we need to deal with with people from whatever background they've come from. Uh the name of Jesus is stronger, and let's in confidence preach him to people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, well uh we're gonna leave it there and uh we'll catch up next time.
SPEAKER_02Catch you on the flip side.