Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we continue our interview with Timothy Barnett about Jehovah's Witnesses.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. Just a load of my hand clap. Alright, that's enough.
SPEAKER_04Sarcastic hand. Do you have a sarcastic hand clap in P3? No, that that that would be more in keeping when I when I do a terrible joke. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03So tell us what we what we try to do with the Avengers Podcast.
SPEAKER_04And you have missed like 113 episodes that you need to catch up on. Like binge listen now. What we've been doing is uh you and I speaking about how we share our faith. We've been engaging with various worldviews, um a lot uh uh on atheism, a lot on evangelistic hot potato kinds of questions, a lot on uh how we preach the gospel, evangelistic preaching, a lot on um how we share the faith one-to-one, how do we share it with friends, how we share it with strangers. And then we've done uh quite a number of interviews now with different people. Uh uh, I remember Gavin Tite, an evangelist to the beatboxing community. Um the beatbox pastor Gavin Tite, go and check out that that episode. He was the uh ITV's Nativity Factor winner a few years ago with his uh Luke's Gospel Nativity, uh, which is sensational. But we spoke to him, we spoke to online evangelists, we spoke to Roger Carswell, people like that, spoken to authors like Mike Reeves and Andrew Wilson. Uh and in the last sort of uh six weeks, I guess, we've been thinking about uh major world faiths that we haven't actually covered before on the Evangelist Podcast. We've been so caught up with talking to sort of just secular people and just sort of uh the atheistic mindset. We thought, well let's let's think about some of the world faiths out there. So we've spoken uh to Bill McKeever about Mormonism, we've spoken to Jay Smith about Islam, we're in the uh middle of speaking to Timothy Barnett about Jehovah's Witnesses, and we're gonna also talk about uh Sikhism, Hinduism, paganism, various other major worldviews and how we speak life into those situations.
SPEAKER_03I suppose uh part of it is resourcing you, the listener, with you know things that you could uh find helpful in evangelising your friends and family and things that you you mean.
SPEAKER_04Totally. So, you know, Ephesians 4 talks about the gift of the evangelist to the church, and the evangelist exists to equip God's people for their works of evangelistic service, you know, and and all kinds of other service. But that's what we exist to do. So the evangelist podcast is is not uh so much an evangelistic thing, although there's been you know some interesting stuff people have listened in, especially on some of the hot potato issues, um especially we did a series on what atheists get right. Yes. And that seemed to be to be listened to by by quite a number of atheists and that kind of thing. Um but our our main audience is how do we equip Christians to speak to their friends and neighbours about Jesus?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I mean alongside that, uh we at Speak Life and you in particular have written books to sort of go along with that. Um you wrote 321, Story of God, the world, and you, and it's sort of like um the the idea of a house. If Christianity is a house, let's go in and have a look around at all the different parts of Christianity. Yeah. Um and we're we're just bringing one out at Christmas time.
SPEAKER_04Another book, so this is called Four Kinds of Christmas. Uh and so it's just a kind of a fun, cheeky way of uh teaching about the wonder of Jesus and and taking people through four kinds of personality type at Christmas. You could be a Scrooge, you could be a shopper, you could be a Santa, or you could be a stable kind of person. And we're talking about the stable, we're not talking about you're you know you're not unstable, we're talking about um the Christmas stable. And and these are sort of four approaches to Christmas, there are also four approaches to life. And uh and so it's an evangelistic giveaway book. Uh I sort of teach my way through Isaiah chapter nine, that great Christmas reading. And so it's a very short book to me, um twenty-five pages. And um it's a great one to give away to non-Christian friends. We're we're also doing some videos around it, and we're also doing an online personality quiz, which uh hopefully lots of people will share, because everybody loves themselves, don't they? And they love to know what kind of personality they are. So we're hoping to tap into that latent narcissism in everybody. And um and hopefully that'll get shared quite widely on social media, and there'll be ways, you know, when you figure out uh having answered nine or ten questions, having figured out that you are a Santa kind of a Christmas, um, you'll get a little video that'll explain uh what your personality type is and how the real original Christmas actually speaks into that situation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, excellent. So get a copy and then I don't know, maybe buy some more copies to give away to people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um if you are a Scrooge, um then go to tenofos.com because that's why it gets Scrooges. Scrooge's love ten of those.com because they are money-saving experts at Scrooges and uh ten of those will do you a great deal, especially if you buy in bulk. Um so yeah, you could fill stockings the world over with these books. Go to four forkindsofchristmas.com or um on the show notes to this episode.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Okay, well uh let's dive into the interview then with Timothy Barnett. We we talked about what he spoke about last time. Mm-hmm. Can you remember, can you re recap a little what he spoke about the first half?
SPEAKER_04So he's an evangelist in Toronto, in Canada, and um uh one of the things, one of the strings to his bow is uh he is an apologist to Jehovah's Witnesses, and he equips Christians in how to uh speak to Jehovah's Witnesses. So we've been speaking with him about uh what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and some of the areas that are fruitful to speak of uh with a Jehovah's Witness, and he'll sort of continue with that, and how we can open up the scriptures with them and proclaim Jesus from all of Scripture. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well let's hear then.
SPEAKER_04John Bergdale on Twitter has asked us about Colossians chapter one. Sure. And uh he says he's he's had sort of conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses, and they've always wanted to come back to who is Jesus? He is the firstborn. Uh so that's sort of quoting Colossians one verse fifteen. And therefore what they mean by firstborn is he is the first creature who God made, and through him he then made the universe, but he himself is a created being. What what what should we say about Colossians 1?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so Colossians 1 is a I think an important uh chapter to argue for the divinity of the deity of Christ. And so uh 115, yeah, in the image Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. They take that to be the first created one, uh, the first created one in time, okay. And then through him, like you said, he's like an instrument. God is still the creator, but he's the instrument like a like a paintbrush or something. A painter uses a paintbrush. Well, the the word firstborn doesn't just mean firstborn, first created in time. Uh, it can actually mean, and it's it's it's often used as the firstborn in uh in rank, the first in rank or first in preeminence. Yes. Um, and so what I usually do with Jehovah's Witnesses is I'll say, because they they they're very strict on this, like it can only mean one thing. And uh and I agree, it can mean it could mean that, but it can also mean first in rank or preeminence. So I often go to uh Psalm eighty-nine verse 27. Okay, Psalm 89, verse 27, it's speaking about David, and uh it says this it says, and I will make him the firstborn, speaking about David, I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings on earth.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, David is not, David's actually the last born in his family.
SPEAKER_04They make a make a big deal of that in one 1 Samuel 16, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You got it, you got it. He's the last, not the firstborn. So clearly, what's going on here? Well, no, he's he's made the firstborn in rank, in preeminence, and and uh, and so here just is a clear example of firstborn. I I believe that um Isaac is called the firstborn as well. Um and so when technically it was Ishmael and then Isaac. Um and so you can you can actually continue reading in Colossians. See, I don't let them if we read the context of Colossians 1, I mean you go to verse 16, it says, uh, for by for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, invisible and invisible. So it's fine, it seems to be talking about everything invisible, uh, all things, right? But what they have to do here, and they'll do this in brackets, square brackets I've just seen the square brackets. Other things, right? Other things, as if, as if uh the reader couldn't figure this out because the text clearly says all things, but we gotta help you. The watchtower has to help you interpret the Bible because it sounds like Jesus is God. So let me put in brackets other things. So here again, they have to put other invisible thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. Uh all things were created through him and for him. And then it goes on to say, verse 19, I think is really important. Verse 19 says this for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. Wow. And I think that, I mean, I'm reading from the ESV here. I think that's a proper translation. They'll say the fullness of the divine nature, something like that. Yeah. Um but this, if you if you, I mean, they're the only translation that would put that. You read every other translation. We're talking about Greek scholars doing the work here.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01They put that all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. I that that for me, I mean, if you can memorize your memorize that short verse, yes, and this is like a knockdown. This is Jesus as God.
SPEAKER_04Because in Colossians 2, verse 9, even in the Watchtower Bible, it says, it is in him, in Christ, that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. You got it. Which is not a great translation, but it's it still seems to be according to Christ, far more divine honors than their theology would allow them, I would have thought.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And and here is something to keep in mind. When you're talking with a Jehovah's Witness, we're not just giving them one verse and saying, okay, this is it. Just believe because it's one verse. This is a cumulative case. I mean, when you take all of these verses and stack them and layer them on each other, you have a powerful case for Jesus being God. And so, I mean, they believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael. There's like two verses in scripture that are not even close to arguing that Jesus was the archangel Michael, okay? But they're willing to take those two verses and and and build this entire doctrine out of it. And yet here we can show just, I mean, just dozens of verses. And and and they can even, I mean, if they're honest, they can see, yeah, there seems to be something here. I mean, we gotta put the square brackets so we don't get confused and all this stuff. And and it just seems like it's either disingenuous, I mean, I'll sometimes I'll bring this up. I'll say, listen, you're willing to believe this on just these, on this flimsy evidence. But when it comes to something like as important as the deity of Christ, and all these verses are just layered on top of each other, how can you how can you not believe? I mean, it's uh some one apologist, William Lane Craig, he says it's kind of like our case is like chain mail. It's not like just a single chain where one you break one chink in the chain and the whole thing breaks. No, this is like all these just kind of all fastened together. And even if one wasn't so great, one evidence, you know, had you could point something out here or something here. No, there's so there's so many things keeping this all together that it it it's it you can't you can't uh can't deny it.
SPEAKER_04And I guess part of the issue is trying to communicate in such a way that they want this to be true, that we're not just kind of getting their arm up behind their back and twisting their arm until they yelp Jesus is Jehovah. But yeah, but just you know what I often do with Jehovah's Witnesses is kind of say, well, look, if Jesus is just a creature who serves Jehovah, all he can bring you into is his own servitude. He can only make you a slave. If he is a creature, then all he can do is bring you into a servant relationship with Jehovah. That's right. If he is the eternal son of the Father, eternally loved by the Father, then what he is offering to you and bringing you into is eternal sonship, eternal daughtership, eternal adoption into the love of God. And and you know, I was explaining this to one Jehovah's Witness who came and heard me preach. His wife has been praying for him for m for many, many years, and um and as we were discussing why Christians get so excited about Jesus being Lord, Jesus being Jehovah, is I was saying it was this, because if he's the eternal Son of the Father, fully God, then he hasn't just come to show us something that we, you know, copy, and then you know, we try to be servants the way he's a servant. If he is the son, he brings you into his sonship so that you you know the eternal love of God and the grace of God then sort of kicks in. And he was in tears, absolutely in tears, and we we prayed together, and I I you know I haven't seen him since that time, but I you know trust trust the Lord that he was doing a a a mighty work. But it just it just goes to show that the identity of Jesus is is it's not just a box that we tick so that we you know fulfill the creeds, but yeah it's the the very nature of the gospel depends on Christ being Lord, you know?
SPEAKER_01You you got it. It's not just an academic thing. This is this is central uh to uh understanding it, but also to, as you've said, I mean, to fully knowing God. I mean, this is what this is uh this is eternal life, that we know God and his son. And uh and and everything you've just said is just uh it's just so true. It's brilliant. And I mean, this is what this is where we want to bring the Jehovah's Witness. It's not about, oh yes, now I've convinced them that Jesus is Jehovah. Like I've just won this argument. That's not what it's about. We want them to enter into a relationship where they truly know God and uh and the love of God. And and like you said, you can't truly know the love of God unless you know, unless you know the son and what he's done for us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a son who brings you to a father. An archangel can only ever bring you to a distant God. You gotta uh we've had a question by Ant Longville on on Twitter, and uh he asks, uh, what's the best approach to, on the one hand, street corner Jehovah's Witnesses, but on the other hand, work colleagues who are Jehovah's Witnesses? How would how would you a lot of what you're saying would would sort of uh apply to uh on the street corner or uh people you know door knocking you and that kind of thing. Is there a sort of a different approach or different things you'd want to bear in mind if you're having ongoing conversations with a work colleague who's uh who's going to the Kingdom Hall?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so if I had a because the the the people that are coming knocking on your door, there's only so much relationship you can build, right? And so we so what we've been discussing applies applies with what we would do in those situations. Um however, if you're working with someone, if you're a friend, you know, you're one of your good friends is a Jehovah's Witness. I mean, I and I I have I have a number of uh friends who who don't share my convictions, and and the same rules would apply that I'm just going to I'm gonna love them, I'm gonna show compassion with them, I'm gonna hang out with them, we're gonna go to we're gonna go out for wings and chicken wings and go to have barbecues and all of those things that we do as human beings with other human beings. And sometimes, and it's it's these situations where you don't have to be pushing, okay, we're going out for uh, you know, we're going out for a bite to eat. Well, I gotta fit in here somewhere, you know, Jesus being Jehovah. No, it's not like that. I go out with my atheist friends all the time, and we just talk about, you know, the Toronto Blue Jays, you know, or whatever. We'll talk about some sports team or something. Um, or we'll talk about how they're doing and and you know, what's going on in their lives and that kind of thing, and just developing a friendship and a relationship that way. Because what I find is those people who I have a genuine relationship with, I'm not just building a relationship because I want to, you know, get them to become a Christian. I have a genuine relationship with these people. They're much more likely to listen to me when it comes to uh significant truths about religion or or morality or whatever.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so um my my advice in those situations, just be normal, you know, just treat them like you would any of your other friends. Sometimes you go with your Christian friends and you guys talk about the Trinity. And sometimes you go out and you talk about, you know, whatever was on the news. You know, you just you don't have to, you don't have to make it so it's uh so it's all artificial and it's all a big plan, a ruse, you know, that kind of thing. Yes. It's you have time to build the relationship. It's the guys who come to the door that you're you're gonna find that you just can't get deep into a into a relationship. In fact, when they start to hear some of your arguments that you go through, that's when things get shut down.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay, you'll you will come to a point, and you so we shouldn't be surprised or discouraged that it will come to a point that they will stop coming to your door. Uh, and where you'll have to see them walking, skip your house and go to someone else, and you'll have to come out of your house and say, Hey, I want to talk to you guys. I mean, that's how that's how that's where it goes. Yes. Because you'll have a big imaginary X on your house because they know this person, you know, they they got some good arguments or whatever, they're they're a lost cause. We can't, we can't do anything with them. And so, and so where whereas your friend who you work with, uh, or or you're just uh maybe a family member or something, you don't you don't have that, there's not there's not that barrier. So you have lots of time just to make it happen naturally. Yes. You know? And uh so that's what I would uh that's some advice.
SPEAKER_04That's that's good advice. And that uh you've just answered Daniel Johnson question. That that Daniel Johnson has asked uh how do we develop friendships without conceding any gospel truth, should we affirm common ground? And um I we had a little back and forth on Twitter uh asking what he meant by that. And uh and and I I was sort of making those points that you were just making, that I that I guess we've all got friends who aren't Christians, um, so it's it's an issue for all of us. But I guess his point was kind of I guess the religious side of a Jehovah's Witness is far more precious to them than uh perhaps the the secular side is of your atheist friend. And and so I I guess there's a there's a bit more of a a sensitivity to be aware of um in your relationship with the JW. I I think that's where Daniel was coming from.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And so yeah, we need to be very sensitive. In fact, I always, whenever I meet a Jehovah's Witness, and I I mentioned it to you this to you before, um, that I'll I'll compliment them. I'll say, listen, I really appreciate what you guys do as far as evangelism goes. I mean, I I wish I spent that much time uh talking with strangers about my faith on a week-to-week basis. Yeah. I mean, there's something to be commended there. Of course, they're what they're communicating is is not the truth, but they're still getting out there and doing it. And uh, and and and Christians can learn a lot from that. Yeah. We should, I mean, we are the key, we are we have the truth with us. And yet, and most Christians just keep it to ourselves. You know, we go to church on Sunday, like it's a social club or something, and then go about our business the rest of the week, and then we do it again.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Never sharing this. This we we have the key to eternal life here. And uh, and and so we we can't keep this to ourselves. And so I compliment them and say, this uh, you know, there's something here I disagree with you, but I respect the fact that you're here at my door right now. Yeah. You know, yeah, or that you're putting in time during your week, you're setting aside time to study and uh understand the challenges and go through that stuff so that you're ready to, you're ready to uh meet me today at my door, you know. And then we can go from there. So now that I've kind of given them something to uh maybe dull the impact of what's gonna happen next, which I hope will be, you know, uh something that will be impactful in in uh changing their mind on this issue. But the reality is, and I and this might be an important thing to insert here, is that we it's not our job to convert people, right? And and a lot of evangelists, apologists think I got like it's it's my job to convert. Well, it's our job to communicate, it's our job to try and and to make disciples communicate truth, but ultimately it comes to God and the Holy Spirit. Which is going to convict and convert. And so, and so we do our part, absolutely. But the Holy Spirit is going to do his part as well. And so, and we'll we need to be as effective and persuasive as humanly possible, but we can only do what's humanly possible. Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and then leave the rest to God. Good advice.
SPEAKER_04Let me um let me finish with two questions. Um one is I I was speaking with Bill McKeever on the program about uh reaching out to Mormons, and and we we talked a little bit about um the fact that it's uh on the one hand, you can destroy someone's faith in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Um and in some ways it's uh quite straightforward to do so, although obviously you know there's all sorts of psychological as well as spiritual strongholds that will resist that, but you can destroy a faith in Mormonism without necessarily leading someone a step closer to Christ. And uh in the same way as we're thinking about Jehovah's Witnesses, are there any things that we should have in mind in order that we we don't merely destroy the watchtower, but that we actually commend and and and win people warmly to Christ? Are there things that we should be thinking about as we as we witness to JW's?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we need to make sure that we are on the offensive, but we're not being offensive. And so, and and this and I've seen this, especially in in my area of work, apologetics, you know, you travel around speaking, you meet a lot of people who want to, you know, want to be apologists, and uh and you find that they just have no compassion. They uh they have no care for believe uh unbelievers, they just they just want to beat someone up with an argument. And and and what is what ends up happening is they end up ridiculing things like oh, you know, you know, those prophecies didn't come true, or you know, the watchtower, you know, and they'll and they'll come at them and and uh and being be very insulting. Yeah. And I mean, if someone, I mean, and Jehovah's Witnesses are human beings, just like everyone else. And so, and when they when when you insult something so precious to them, like the Watchtower or Awake magazine, or you're making fun of them that they think that Jesus is Michael, the archangel, or something like that. If you if you come across that way, of course they're gonna put the guard down. They're they're gonna not want to have anything to do with you. And so we need to remember to have to show compassion and not just, I mean, uh, I I like how uh Martin Luther King Jr. he said, to whom you would love, uh they must actually know that you love them. And so if you love someone, I mean sometimes we say, Oh, of course they they know I love them. Of course they know I love them. Yeah, but do they really know that you love them? So we show love and they must not only feel love, but they gotta know that you love them. And how are they gonna know that? Is it through you insulting them? Of course not. It's through, it's through taking very so we're handling, I think we need to handle the Jehovah's Witnesses with kind of kid gloves, in a sense. We're we're uh being careful. I think uh uh the New Testament says innocent as doves, but uh oh, I'm I'm gonna butcher the passage. We're innocent as doves, but um wise as serpents. You got it, wise as serpents. And so here we're trying to we're trying to uh come at this where we're we are dismantling some of their arguments. You know, we just talked about the firstborn. What does that mean? So we're gonna answer challenges, but we're not just gonna leave them there, kind of destroying their arguments. We're gonna show them, and I think this is I I was able to watch a couple of videos of you doing the one, two, three kind of gospel presentation, or three, two, one, I should say, gospel presentation, where you're actually giving them something in return, right? You're not just saying, Well, you, you know, you guys can't explain this, you can't explain that. Uh, I've just demolished this argument, demolish that argument. It's we don't leave them there. We're we present the gospel, we present the good news that they're missing, and that's something that they can take with them. Yes. Okay. And so, and so there's kind of a a couple, you're we're not just, you know, uh uh I think it's 2 Corinthians says that we're just we're demolishing strongholds or arguments raised against the knowledge of God. You know, 1 Peter talks about being ready to give an answer. Of course, we can do those things, but we do so with gentleness and respect, and that's what it says there. Yeah, um, and so and so that is an integral part of uh of what we do as evangelists and apologists.
SPEAKER_04Yes. As you s as you were speaking, I was thinking of uh 2 Timothy 2, um, the very end of that chapter just really resonates with all that you're saying. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know that they produce quarrels. The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed in the hope that God will grant them repentance, leading them to the knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their centers and escape from the trap of the devil who has taken them captive to do his will. Amen. I just love the there's the seriousness of the spiritual battle there, that you know, Satan has taken them captive. Um but what what do we do? We gently instruct. You got it. Yeah. Great. Final question. Uh, final question. Uh, how do we get better at this? If if we want if we want to witness whether it be to work colleagues or whether it's just to be to be ready when the door knockers come, how how do we get better at witnessing?
SPEAKER_01So there, I mean, in this Jehovah's Witness issue, there is a lot of different areas to cover, right? You can find yourself talking about all kinds of things. What I do, just kind of as a practical advice, is I actually keep notes by my door. I mean, that's because I know that's where they're coming from. They're gonna be at my door. So I have actually I have a 10-page set of notes. I think I sent you a reduced kind of uh two-page thing or something like that. Yes. Uh that that, and so this is something, and I and and we're gonna we'll find a way that people who are listening can actually get a hold of my notes and they can keep those at the door because then you don't have to remember everything. But with anything, it takes if you want to get, if you want to be persuasive, you need to know your stuff. You can't just read the stuff off the page. So it it takes time to uh look over the material, study this stuff for yourself, look into some of the verses that I've been talking about. Um we need to we need to be prepared to give an answer. And and so that and the the reality is that takes time. And so it means that you know, maybe we don't spend the night watching TV or or watching whatever movie, but you allocate that time to training up because uh because there is a battle coming. Uh they and I mean I'm using the term battle because that's how the New Testament describes it, but this is they're gonna be at your door. It may not be this Saturday, it may not be the next Saturday, but but uh I know in my area it's it's coming. Yes, and I gotta be ready. And so the one way I do that is I'm in my Bible, I'm studying the scriptures, kind of like the Bere, and see if these things be so, so that I'm ready. And I usually keep a couple arguments. We went through a couple of them that I just have now in my mind. And uh so I don't need to get out any papers for that. Um, but if I do get a tough challenge, I may say, Hey, do you mind if, you know, um I think about this and you guys can come back? And the Jehovah's Witnesses love coming back. In fact, that's part of it's kind of like a salesman. You want to kind of get the person to sign the dotted lines.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, in the same way, they don't want to leave without setting up an appointment for the next visit. You know?
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so and so this is a great opportunity to say, you know what, you've given me stuff to think about. I've given you some stuff to think about. How about we set up another time where we can come together, have some coffees, and and talk more about this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. And you've served us really well with those notes. So um, yeah, we'll have to find a way of making those available. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I I should plug, you know, Stand to Reason has a website that's the ministry I'm with. It's str.org. And and so there's lots of material on there. Uh in fact, everything I went over, I have I over two hours of teaching on YouTube uh where I give basically training seminars on on how to navigate through uh conversations, how to witness to a Jehovah's Witness. And uh there's just so much material there. Um and and I encourage people to go find those videos, watch them over and over again, make notes, uh, and and find arguments that resonate with them and try those out. And if they don't work, try something else. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um so yeah, that's brilliant. We'll put all of that onto the show notes, and uh yeah, I highly commend uh those YouTube videos. They uh they definitely helped me. I I hadn't seen that uh Hebrews 1 Psalm 102 thing before. It's uh yeah, I'll be I'll be using that. Next time, next time they knock on my door, they better watch out. They're gonna get some Psalm 102.
SPEAKER_01There you go.
SPEAKER_04Brilliant. Well, uh Timothy, we are so grateful that you joined us uh on this.
SPEAKER_01It's been a pleasure talking with you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, fantastic. And and of course the JW thing is not not the only thing that you do at STR, is it?
SPEAKER_01No, we uh because of my background in physics, um, I spend actually most of my time talking about science. So looking at the fine-tuning of the universe, uh the origin of the universe, uh, are science and faith compatible? What about evolution? I actually taught um biology and the evolution unit to a grade 11 class uh in the public school system. So that was a whole that was a whole thing.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_01Um uh and so what you know, what do we do with some of these arguments and that kind of thing? Talk about you know everything from truth, the resurrection, the problem of evil, uh, tons of material on YouTube and uh on the website sgr.org.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. Well, maybe maybe we'll be back in touch and and uh and speak about some of those issues. I'd love to do it again. Fantastic. Thanks so much, Timothy. All right, take care.
SPEAKER_03That was uh Timothy Barnett talking to you, Glenn, a week or so ago. Yeah, sometimes I've found anyway that Jehovah's Witnesses are are tough cookies. You know they're kind of really quite set in their ways sometimes. Yeah. Um, they came came to my door one time and and I started doing a Bible study with them. Uh about five weeks or so of Bible studies. And uh I I kind of thought, you know, I would be able to say stuff to them and you know, they would the scales were full of their eyes. But I found them very, very hard, you know, very unmoving. Um it seems that they were quite prepared for all the questions that I posed to them, you know. I mean, there were one or two things that I said that they kind of hadn't thought of, but um you know, they were they were really quite rigid, I thought.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yeah, people in cults like really are. But on the other side, the things that you will have said to them from scripture that they didn't have an answer to will gnaw away at them more than you're just talking to a pagan and you you know, if if you mention something from the scriptures, you know, to someone who doesn't hold the scriptures as as an authority, it's far more likely to be water off a duck's back. But if you do manage to get through some of the defences and sort of say, Ah yeah, but what about Psalm two? What about Psalm 110? What about Genesis 19, verse 24? What about these places, you know?
SPEAKER_03Um and what he said w Timothy said was was good, you know, get a a new translation. New World Translation or even say, Can I have a look at your Bible and I flip through.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, don't pay any money for that. I mean they're gonna spend money on on Can I just see your Bible for a minute? Yeah, they would love you to have it. So get a New World Translation. I I yeah, I th I thought that was very wise. Use their translation. Because you don't want them to sort of wriggle out of it just by saying, Oh well, that's the you know um uh a corrupted translation. So yeah, use their translation. And of course, when when you use their translation, they've doctored so much of the New Testament, but they've left the Old Testament wide open, really, apart apart from sort of Proverbs 8, they haven't really done much to the Old Testament at all. So yeah, so I was saying on the on the episode, you know, I often go back to Genesis 18 and 19. You've got Jehovah raining down burning sulphur on the Jehovah in the you know on the earth. To which Jehovah you are you witnessing? Jehovah the Father or Jehovah the Son, you know. Um but and there's all sorts of stuff like that, um, that even works in their Bible. Um so actually maybe maybe on the show notes we'll we'll put uh a a link to uh I did a blog post years ago on twenty-four scriptures from the Old Testament that talk about two Jehovahs. At least two Jehovahs. Um so yeah, that that might be useful as well. And most of those work, even in the New New World Translation. Um examples in the Old Testament where you just can't make these two Jehovah into one person. Um there are two Jehovahs going on in Genesis 19, 24, there are two Jehovahs going on in Exodus 33, there are two Jehovah's going on in Zechariah 2 and and all these places. So I yeah, I I find that that stuff is stuff that they haven't really considered before. And it's a it's a stone that you put in their shoe that m counts for a lot more with a Jehovah's Witness because they they they're meant to be bibli biblical and they're meant to hold this as their authority. So yes, on one hand they are very tough, tough cookies tough cookies. Tough cookies. Tough tough, tough nuts to crack. Tough cookies to crack. They are they are tough in that way, but if you can get if you can get the scriptures into them and let the scriptures work on them, you've got more leverage with them. And and I s you know, last year I was preaching on John one at a at a church and a Jehovah's Witness was there, and and you know, by and large, the witnessing had been done by this man's wife, who's a Christian and she'd been praying for him for thirty years, but he he came along to hear about John one and I was speaking about the Trinity and he was just in tears at the end. And and I remember, you know, talking to him afterwards and and saying, Look, if Jesus is just a servant of Jehovah, then all Jesus can do is bring you into his slavery. And he said, Yes, that is ex that's exactly my experience of of the watchtower, um slavery, the whole thing. And I said, Ah yeah, but if you come to what the scriptures are actually saying, Jesus is the son of the father and he brings you into his adoption, into the life of God, and now you're a child and you're free. And and he was just like really released by that. So although they are tough to talk to, uh at times it's it's yeah, it's totally worth persevering. And and and it and it makes sense of, you know, why why do I bang on about 321? Why do I bang on about God is three? Actually, when you're talking to a Jehovah's Witness, you see the real difference of of a Trinitarian um account of who God is, and and that really is truly liberating for the Jehovah's Witnesses. There are other gospel presentations out there that evangelicals have come up with and evangelicals use, and the Jehovah's Witnesses use them too. Which is interesting. Like if your if your gospel presentation can be used by Jehovah's Witnesses, it's probably not a good one to use.
SPEAKER_03And also a lot of the hymns as well. Um, when I was doing this this Bible study, I thought, yeah, this hymn's not Trinitarian. I mean it you know you can sing it as a Trinitarian, but yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's no sort of uh distinction between Almighty God or Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, um it it helped me to to get an understanding of of where Jehovah's were coming from and you know and and to look on them, you know, as lost as well, you know, they're um barking up the wrong tree.
SPEAKER_04They are. And another argument for engaging Jehovah's Witnesses is just what you said. It's made you think about, oh, the hymns that we sing and how Trinitarian are they, and and what I find in evangelism is it just helps my own theology so much because as you as you're dealing with the counterfeits, it throws you back to the original and and you see the reason why are we Trinitarian and why is it such good news that Jesus is the Son of the Father and not just the servant of Jehovah?
SPEAKER_03It sort of refreshes your own. Totally does, yeah. Totally does good. We're going on next time in this series to talk to um George Osborne.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03From Luminum Hatteries.
SPEAKER_04Not that George Osborne.
SPEAKER_03Not that George Osborne, but George Osborne um talking about New Age and how to witness to New Age.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, stay tuned for that one. It's gonna be a good interview.
SPEAKER_03Good. So just before we sort of close out, um just want to remind you about our Halloween video. It's a good video to sort of share, put on your Facebook feed and Twitter feed, etc.
SPEAKER_02Or use it at light parties or that kind of thing if you're holding one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Sort of explaining about the the light of uh Christbrings. Mm-hmm. Um and also Remembrance. We've got remembrance coming up. You did a remembrance video. That's right, this time last year.
SPEAKER_04It was something that we we developed for use in Remembrance Day services and that kind of thing, but it's been shared online quite widely as well. So um yeah, check out our remembrance uh video. I forgot the name of it. To end all wars. To end all wars, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so have a have a look at the remembrance video. Good.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well uh we better leave it there. Thanks so much for listening and see you next time. See ya.