Today on the Evangelist Podcast we talk to Timothy Barnett about speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley.
SPEAKER_04Oh no, the applause is dead. Congratulatory applause.
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SPEAKER_04And the is the canned laughter as well? Yeah. It's really fun. How many people assume that sitcoms use canned laughter when virtually none of them ever do? It's yeah, it's really interesting. Like a lot of people say, oh, I can't stand sitcoms, they're always using canned laughter. I can't think of any that, you know, maybe like Charles in charge of, you know, back in the 80s and things or Punky Brewster. Do you remember Punky Brewster back then? No. Australian language. Maybe it's an American thing. But but everyone assumes that um canned laughter is is brought in on all these things artificially to raise the colour. Really? But it's not. No, it's not. Most of them are recorded in front of a live studio audience. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I thought they were all canned laughter.
SPEAKER_04No, I know, I know. Oh most people do. Um but just so that the listeners know that that was canned laughter. We are not live in front of uh. Yes, it wasn't. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. Okay. Thanks for that. That's it.
SPEAKER_04That's for free. And you're learning something already. I am.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I am. It's amazing what I learned on the edge of this podcast. So anyway, uh today we're going to talk to Timothy Barnett about speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses.
SPEAKER_04That's right, Timothy Barnett of Stand to Reason Ministries. So um you might know Greg Kukel, um, who's uh written a lot of great books on uh sharing your faith with others, and Stand to Reason um has a number of different evangelists, and Timothy is their Canadian one there in Toronto. And uh he uh speaks to people about all sorts of things, uh he's got a science background and and so speaks on those kinds of apologetic issues. But uh he also uh has some great stuff on how to share your faith with JWs. And so we'll be talking about not only what JWs believe, but how we can engage them fruitfully with the gospel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Sort of JWs? They meet me.
SPEAKER_04I was gonna say, yeah, on the doors. On the doors. You know, it's really interesting. Like we go out on the streets in in Eastbourne to talk to people, and every now and again we come across um, you know, they've got the pull-up banner, the JWs, and then they'll usually be set up shop, you know, outside a train station.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I get the train and they're uh they're they're pretty solidly seven you know, uh every weekday. Isn't that amazing?
SPEAKER_04Isn't it it it it is a rebuke to us, isn't it, that they can mobilize that kind of you know it's a very quiet presence. They they don't approach you, but if you approach them, they'll get into a conversation with you. And um and it's interesting when we go out on the streets to sort of have conversations with people, I usually don't engage them because I think, well, I might have a a long conversation, but I I don't know how far it will get. But I I think Timothy has kind of encouraged me to to see them as, you know, people, you know, really worth talking to. And forever, you know, for however long you're speaking to them, they're not speaking to somebody else. I always think that on the doors, you know. If they're if they're talking to me um on on my doorstep, then they're not talking to somebody else. So uh have another drink.
SPEAKER_02Have another cup of tea.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Well you can't do that with Mormons, but you can do that with JWs because Mormons do not partake of tannin-based stimulants, but um JWs do and and I mean he brings up very interestingly in the interview that that if ever there are people who are up for Bible study, it's Jehovah's Witnesses. And and you can open up to the scriptures and wrestle with them and it's worth doing that. And uh and so Timothy will talk about that and um uh he'll also refer to uh some material that he's got available online and he says he just keeps the material by his door so that when they knock on the door he's got it to hand and he can pick it up and go through the material with them, which I think is a good a good idea. It's sort of a you know break glass in case of JW's just in in the car menu. And you get out the little Bible study and and take them through that. So we'll we'll put that on the show notes as well.
SPEAKER_02Uh but yeah. Yeah, good. So give us a bit of a recap what's what's been happening on your calendar, your diary recently.
SPEAKER_04Gallivanting around. Yes. Uh so just this last week I spoke at uh an event pitched mainly at men, and it was on Saturday the twentieth. Was it no, wait a minute. Yeah, so this Saturday when Australia played England at the rugby, 8 p.m. And it was this uh this big event. Um I've done a couple of these before where they've got butchers in and the butchers have sort of cut up an animal in front of us all. The animal's dead. Um put the animal to death in front of people. That's that's yeah, blood sport. But uh so they cut up a pig in front of us and we had some you know local ciders and that kind of thing, and then I came and spoke. And I forget what the segue was in between you know. It probably should have been, you know, Jesus declares all foods clean. Now we can enjoy our pork. Um, pearls before twice. Wine before I don't know. Um before beer. Yeah. So uh so I spoke at that. And it was really interesting because I I got to take a couple of um friends that I'm making here in Eastbourne up to that, and they're very, very interested in the gospel and and uh we've since had uh a couple of Bible studies in John's Gospel and um they are very, very open to to gospel things. So that was really encouraging. And then the next day, Sunday, spoke up in Dartford, and uh the woman who'd been coming there for many, many years, uh well, maybe maybe for one year. Um and uh she It's very interesting, she struggles with with various mental health issues and she's got a kind of a butterfly brain, and so she'll talk to you about something and then hop over to another topic and then hop over to another topic. But as you know, as I spoke to her, I said, you know, do you think Jesus is the Son of God? And yes I do, and do you think you're a sinner? Yes I do, and do you want Jesus in your life? Yes I do. And um and sort of we went round the houses because we spoke about knitting, we spoke about grandchildren, we spoke about all sorts of things. But um yeah, eventually she she kind of said, Yeah, she wants Jesus in her life from now on and that kind of thing. And it was interesting, you know, talking with her and talking with the the pastor of the church about what saving faith uh looks like for for people with um various mental health struggles and that kind of thing. But I think she has a a childlike faith in Jesus and and um that was really encouraging to to see and and then I spoke at an Alpha Supper uh Sunday night which was great. It was sort of the culmination of a month of stuff that I've been doing with King's Church Lewis. And we've been doing a an evangelistic training course for the Christians called 321 Go. And then I preached evangelistically on uh last Sunday and then this last Sunday, um did the Alpha course and and they had sort of four non-Christians there who were really, really open and keen. And um Oh, I love I love my job. It's uh really cool. Speaking to a lot of people in this last week who are on the cusp of faith or or trusting Jesus for the first time. So yeah, really encouraging.
SPEAKER_02So how do people get I mean how do you get invites? How do people contact you?
SPEAKER_04Um they come through the website or they know me or they know the churches that I've done stuff with. Um but uh if people do want to get in touch, uh then they can just go to speaklife.org.uk and um yeah, love to love to consider invitations. Always always good to get new invitations. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Good. And uh we also wanted to talk about our Halloween video. Yeah, yeah. That's coming soon.
SPEAKER_04It's uh it creeps up on us, doesn't it? Every day. Yeah, October 31st. Uh All Saints Eve. I'm sure you knew that. All Saints Day the next day. Yes. Yes. Following the church calendar as you do, Andy. Uh so um yeah, that's coming up. So do do start sharing the Halloween video. Um we've had loads of loads of shares over the years with that, and and people have uh seen the way that Jesus meets us in the darkness by being the light of the world. And so yeah, it can be a really fruitful time to share the gospel, actually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we'll we'll put that on the show notes, as you say. And uh what we've got planned for Christmas again, it's the the four kinds of kinds of Christmas.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes. And I think you didn't get Scrooge, did you?
SPEAKER_02Uh I did it a couple of times and I did once. You tried to get Scrooge. I tried to I tried to do the opposite of the opposite of what I really was, but I got Scrooge. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Ah, you are the photo negative of Scrooge. Okay. Um So yes, so Four Kinds of Christmas exists as a personality quiz. It's also a little book that's coming out with ten of those, and um you can order it now and get your copy. Uh uh. Go to tenofthose.com or go to fourkindsofchristmas.com and uh and yeah, you'll get that. So that's a great little stocking filler and a great little book that you can um give to people at Christmas. It's also a great book to be used at Carol Service. Have you thought about your carol services? Well, here's a book, you know, you get it in bulk for a quid each, and um people go away with a lovely little gift. It's got a um lovely Christmassy cover and uh it'll explain Jesus from Isaiah chapter nine. Um and when the personality quiz comes out, uh we'll let you know, and you can start doing that and sharing it on social media and uh and get people sharing in that way. We we want to offer the book to to non-Christians on on online for free. So yeah, lots of different ways of reaching out uh at Christmas, because I think Christmas is still a brilliant opportunity in the UK, at least um for reaching out. So hopefully Four Kinds of Christmas is is uh uh a resource for you to use.
SPEAKER_02Just go to speaklife.org.uk slash T E P and uh find uh this episode which is uh episode uh hundred and twelve, is it? And uh yeah, we'll have all the details on the Okay, well uh let's let's hear from T Timothy Barnett then. Um you were speaking to him a few days ago. Hear what he has to say.
SPEAKER_04I'm with Timothy Barnett of uh Stand to Reason. Great to have you with us on the program. It is great to be on the show, Glenn. Brilliant, and you're in Toronto, is that right? I am, I'm uh Canadian. Oh, fantastic it's good it's good to have you on the program. We in fact I I um I was telling people on the program not very long ago that um uh the one Canadian joke I know is like how many letters are in the word Canada? And there's three, because it's C A N A D A. Huh? Huh? Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, that's not good.
SPEAKER_04That's uh yeah. So my first Canadian guest, and I've insulted him within the first 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_01You know what? I take a lot of abuse from the uh the other guys at Stand to Reason. They uh joke about me living in an e-gloo and that kind of thing. So hilarious. About I'm I'm gonna do my best to say about. About.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, if you if you learn anything from Greg Kugel and from Stand to Reason, yeah. How to pronounce the word out. There you go. I I get the same sort of thing. I'm I'm from Australia, but I live in the UK, so so people people make fun of me as well. We can uh we can be a persecuted minority. That's there you go. There you go. Brilliant. So so you've been with Stan to Reason only for uh a few months, is that right? What what were you doing before um stand to reason?
SPEAKER_01That's right. So I uh let me back up a little bit. I um went to teachers college, I got a degree in physics, of all things, physics and math. Wow, went to teachers college, uh, and then I and then I went into teaching high school science and math and some other subjects. And uh from there, kind of uh drifted towards apologetics. In fact, it was in teachers college that I found my faith being challenged on a daily basis. So I was actually spending more time defending my faith and working on papers and homework and lesson plans and all that other stuff. And so uh it was through that and then through going to the high school and seeing the need for equipping our our young people that I eventually started a ministry called Clear Thinking Christianity, which was based off of something that Greg Kokel says, because I was a huge Stan to Reason fan. And then it wasn't too long after that where uh just through God's providence putting me in certain situations, I met Sean McDowell. He ended up introducing me to Brett Kunkel, who is a part of Stan to Reason, and and uh they offered me a job. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So so before this, you uh you were still in the teaching world and doing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I actually still uh do some substitute teaching uh for the public board here um on days when I can do that. And I actually have a a part-time position at my church as well, uh, leading the the marriage group. But my full-time job is is speaking and writing and teaching for stand to reason.
SPEAKER_04Fantastic. And part of your your role um is is speaking about Jehovah's Witnesses and and kind of getting into how do you how do you outreach to to them? How did you how did you get into thinking more about Jehovah's Witnesses?
SPEAKER_01You know what? That uh that came about from just Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door. They tend to do that. They do, and uh, and it's something that uh they should be commended for. Yes. Uh there's something, I mean, what they'll do for a lie, most Christians won't do for the truth.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_01So it's uh it's it's sad. And so they knocked on my door, and to be honest with you, I knew that Jesus is God, and I knew I knew my stuff, but I didn't know why I believed it. I couldn't, I couldn't cite a chapter and verse. I found myself tongue-tied when they were at my door. And uh, and so here was this uh this challenge, this obstacle for my of my faith, and I turned this obstacle into an opportunity. I said, listen, I am going to find out the answers to some of these challenges, to some of these questions. And I think this is what Christians need to do. We shouldn't shy away from from excuse me, obstacles. I call them, sometimes I call them gosticles, obstacles of the gospel, right? And there's all kinds of gospels out there. Uh, evolution can be something like that, or some people think science is an obstacle of the gospel, some people think hell is, you know, all these different the problem of evil. And for me, it came down, they were raising some challenges. Yeah, and uh and it didn't shake me to the core, but it had me go take the opportunity to look into what do I really believe and why do I believe it? What are the reasons I have? And then I wanted, and then it turned into hey, I'm a teacher, I should be sharing this information, I should be training up people uh to to be persuasive with a Jehovah's Witness.
SPEAKER_04So we'll think in a second about some of the uh some of the lines of inquiry that you want to go down as as you're speaking to Jehovah's Witnesses and some of these issues, you know, Jesus is God, how do we defend that? Um before we get into that, uh what can you give us a kind of a skeleton history of the JWs? Where where have they come from?
SPEAKER_01Sure. They the so this cult comes out of uh a teacher, Charles Taze Russell, okay? And it actually comes out of a Bible study. He started a Bible study uh in around 1870. So we're looking at 150 years ago, okay? So this is relatively new as far as movements go, as far as cults go. And uh and it was from there that he started the Watchtower Bible and track society that we're we're familiar with today, um, that puts out the New World Translation, they have different literature like the Watchtower and Awake magazine. And so and so he started that. And uh from there, uh this this cult has grown. I mean, from that Bible study, he started uh a cult that is now around eight million people and and growing. Okay, it's the home base is in uh Brooklyn, New York. Uh, this is where the elders, like the the main elders reside, and that's where the doctrines come out of. Okay. So they're the doctrines and the interpretation of the New World Translation is uh disseminated through the Watchtower magazine and awake magazine.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so they have sort of like papal encyclicals and that kind of thing, do they? You got it, right? Right. Okay, interesting. And that's coming out of Brooklyn. And and so who who today is is is there like a pope of the of the is there a you know what?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. They do have a current president. I uh his name escapes me, but they do there is I I they they wouldn't call it a pope. They would say there's this board of elders. Um and so I don't know if there's someone who sits at the top and and and that's who uh and that's who they they don't they certainly don't worship, but they definitely get their teaching from them. No, we gotta be clear, these guys aren't infallible and they don't claim to be infallible. Okay. And so when they've when they've uh when they've made uh prophecies, they wouldn't call them prophecies, but when they've said that things are gonna happen in the future and they don't come true, they'll just say, well, we're we're infallible, we're we're not infallible. Okay.
SPEAKER_04And and some of the some of those prophecies have included sort of the return of Christ a number of times, isn't that right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so in 1914, you have uh this was supposed to be the return of Christ. Now, because there was because there was no physical return, they claimed that no, this did come true. Christ returned as an invisible spirit. Okay. And so, and so, and that was in in 1914. So here we have it's not it's not really falsifiable, you know, Christ is reigning since in heaven. Um, and and we just have to take it on kind of a blind faith that that is so. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Tell me uh what what what are the core beliefs, especially those that that deviate from Orthodox Christianity?
SPEAKER_01Where are the sure, sure. Where I normally zero in on, and I think it's one of the one of the most important, is the deity of Christ. Yeah. Okay, so that for the Jehovah's Witness, Jesus is not God. Um, he is actually the created Archangel Michael. Okay, so he's the highest created being, and so and then when when when Jesus was born uh on earth, well, that was the Michael coming as Jesus, and now that he is back in heaven, he's returned to being Michael the archangel. Okay, and so this is a huge point of deviation. This is what separates uh orthodoxy from heresy. Yes, and so uh but there's there's many other things. Salvation on the Jehovah's Witness view is a combination of faith and good works. Yes. Okay, you have to be obedient, and this is why, this is why they're out uh Saturday mornings knocking on doors. Um this is part of they're actually they actually record how much time they've been in the field. Yes, and that's actually reported back to Brooklyn. Yes. And so, and if you don't do a certain number of hours, you're not reporting this, then then this can lead to you being either disciplined or or eventually thrown out. Is it something like four or five hours just if if you're healthy and able or yeah, so so five hours but would be uh a typical time. Some of these guys can spend 20 hours, 30 hours a week going door to door.
SPEAKER_04I am a very bad Jehovah's Witness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there you go. There you go. Well, even five hours a week. I mean, you can think of uh what the normal uh you know everyday Christian does in a week. You just it does we just don't compare to these two numbers. But they're see, they're few they're being fueled though by this emphasis on good works. It's not faith alone that saves, it's this combination. So there's another another serious point, the Trinity. Um, obviously, the the deity of Christ we talked about, Jesus isn't God. So there is no there is no trinity. The Holy Spirit is just an inanimate uh power or force of God. Okay. So there's it's not a personal, it's not a person, it's just this force that God uh uses. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh I mean there just a couple more I'll mention would be things like the resurrection. They believe in a it's just a Jesus was raised spiritually, not bodily. And so it's I mean, I I do a whole talk on the on the resurrection, and and you know, you have the empty tomb. So they say, okay, yeah, the tomb was empty. So God took the body away, but he Jesus was only raised, uh was only raised spiritual uh in a in a spiritual sense. Um which which contradicts, by the way, when Jesus says that you he'll just you destroy this temple, I'll raise it up in three days. John tells us he was speaking of the temple of his body. Of his body. Yeah that's right. And so this is a physical body. They have a messed up view of the atonement. They they think that Jesus died as a as a ransom to Satan. This is called the ransom theory of atonement, whereas uh kind of the orthodox view would be the substitutionary atonement that Jesus dies a substitute for us, paying our penalty in our place.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's sounding very much like uh the the sort of the Sasinian. Of the sort of 17th, 18th century coming out of these hyper-rationalists.
SPEAKER_01Sure. You know what? There's really nothing new under the sun. It's just the same stuff that just keeps being rehashed throughout history. And uh and so, you know, things like you know, the doctrine of hell, they they they don't believe in eternal conscious torment, they believe in annihilationism. Here is something that Christians like to debate with Jehovah's Witnesses about. Yes. But there are even there are Christians that believe in annihilationism. So this isn't necessarily a point of uh you know orthodoxy versus heresy. Yes. There are different views within Christendom. There are some views we would call heterodox, but they're still in the pale, you would say, of of Christianity. Um so not everything that we differ with has to be, well, this is you know heretical. Yes. There are points of disagreement, and this is where we need to be careful because we can get down these rabbit trails where um we're debating things that are important, yes, but they're not ultimately significant enough that if you change their mind on this one issue, they're all of a sudden going to repent and you know truly believe in Jesus Christ as Lord. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Like the 144,000 or something like that.
SPEAKER_01You got it. This is 144,000, you know, that those 144,000, which no Jehovah's Jehovah's Witness today would say they're a part of, you know, those 144,000, because there's 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses, those are already uh people that have probably gone on, they're in heaven, they have their spiritual eternal life in heaven. The rest, the rest of the Jehovah's Witnesses are those who will have a physical life, eternal life on this earth. Okay, so so the only ones who are truly born again, they would teach are the 144,000. They're the ones who can take communion, yeah, um, and and that sort of thing. They're uh the rest, the vast majority though, do not have, are not a part of that group.
SPEAKER_04There's a there's a woman in our uh in our home fellowship group who used to, she came out of Jehovah's Witness, came out of a kingdom hall, and she said she said that she did once see somebody take communion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and that can happen too. And it's just, and how do you so that person, how do they know that they're one of the hundred and forty-four thousand? Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like this is where it becomes this subjective. Well, you we just have to take them, you know, on their own kind of experience and and what they're telling us.
SPEAKER_04Um of course all the rest of the people are just passing the elements on.
SPEAKER_01That's right. They just let it go.
SPEAKER_04They just let it go.
SPEAKER_01And there's someone there writing it down, you know, this person took it, so they must be part of it. Um, it's it's very interesting.
SPEAKER_04Astonishing that they get to handle, you know, what what Christ says is here's my body broken for you. Here is here is you know the new cup of the cup of the new covenant of forgiveness for you, and they just pass it on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and this is this is the sad part. This is why it's so tragic, and we should really just mourn for Jehovah's Witnesses because they're missing out on. I mean, some people would say, hey, just leave them alone, you know, they're worshiping God their way, but no, they're missing out on the truth. Yeah. And there's so much to it that they are, but passing the elements, there there's something there that they're they're missing out on.
SPEAKER_04And if you know, if they can't call Jesus Lord, my goodness, you know, they're missing out on the very scepter. Yeah. That's right. And so so there's there's many things, many kind of rabbit trails that you could go down. Um if a if a Jehovah's Witness, let's let's say a Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door. Yeah. Um so we've thought about some of the things that that might kind of lead to uh a less fruitful conversation. Where do you want to hone in on? Where where's the center of where you want to get to with a with a Jehovah's Witness?
SPEAKER_01So at stess at STR we try and simplify issues. So the abortion issue, we try and simplify simplify it with a question. Islam, we try and simplify with a question. Well, for the Jehovah's Witness, I simplify the issue down to really one question that matters. And the question is: who is Jesus? Who is Jesus? That is central. All these other things, they they can get you sidetracked and get you into debates that may be fruitful and may not be, but this central question gets you right down to kind of the nub of the issue. It gets you right down to where you you want to be uh arguing for the deity of Christ. And so I always, whenever they come to my door, that's where I'm trying to take the discussion. Who do you say that Jesus is? Because this is this is such a crucial, this is such a crucial question. Yeah. Um, and and and so if I'm gonna change their mind on any issue, I want it to be this issue.
SPEAKER_04And the typical JW answer, will will they, I mean, I don't I can't think of any JWs who who have instantly said he is the archangel Michael. They That's right. What will they tip typically say?
SPEAKER_01So they well, they do think he they might use the word he's the highest created being. They may something like that. Yeah, um, he they they'll say he's Lord. Um they they make a distinction between God, Theos, which we'll see in the Greek, and Lord, which is curios. And so why, yeah, why in the New Testament over and over again is Jesus called Lord? Why don't they just come out and say Jesus is God, Jesus is God? Why do his disciples call him Lord? And we can talk about that. Yeah, I think there's a very specific reason why the disciples chose the word curios to apply to Jesus Christ and not Thaos, even though, and we I can show you there are certain times in the New Testament where the disciples can't contain themselves and they call yes, they call Jesus God. Yes, explicitly and implicitly. Yes. Um, but uh but usually that they refer to him as Lord. And a Lord can be, I mean, in all fairness, the Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, if someone's the head of the house, you might call them Lord, you know, lowercase L, something like that. Yes. Um, and so that doesn't, just because we say Lord, doesn't automatically mean that he's God. Yes. Okay. So they so they have no problem with using that kind of terminology. But as soon as you say God in the big G sense, I mean they'll in John 1.1, they say in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was a God. Little G. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so they'll even they're even willing to say that, but they believe that that is that is infinitely removed from the Almighty God.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so we gotta be clear when we're approaching this issue that we understand where they're coming from.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Because we may use our terminology, yeah, Jesus is Lord, you know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and they'll say, Yeah, he's Lord, and you both think that you're in agreement.
SPEAKER_04He's divine, even. They went to the right.
SPEAKER_01There you go. Yeah that's right. And so we're using terminology completely different.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so we gotta be sure on what we're what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so how do we then go about it? Ryan Hunt on Twitter uh has asked this question. Uh he's asking for what are the most effective scriptural proofs of Christ's eternal pre-existence that used the Jehovah's Witnesses translation.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and this this is, I think, this is a brilliant question because this is, I think, where you want to go with the Jehovah's Witness. This is uh this can this is where you're gonna make the biggest impact. Uh we can talk about other verses, John 1.1, John 20, 28, there's Colossians 1, there's a lot of verses that seem to point to Jesus being God. But these they have rehearsed responses to these challenges. Okay. And so they don't just knock on your door. There's a history behind that. They they've been preparing during the week, they've been studying, they've been rehearsing, okay. If I ask this question and I get this response, here's how I move forward. Or what happens if I get this particular challenge? So they're ready for these typical, uh, these typical verses that Christians will trot out. Now, so this is where I go. I want to show, I want to show from their version, from their New World translation, which I think is actually a mistranslation, but we'll just for the sake of the argument say it's the translation of the Bible from their version that Jesus is identified as Jehovah in the Old Testament. Yeah. Okay, and so there's a couple reasons why we want to use their version. Um, first of all, we we want to use their version because uh this avoids arguments or debates over translations. Okay, so if I have my ESV or my NIV and I bring it to the door with me, they have their uh NWT, their New World Translation. All of a sudden I read John 1.1, they read John 1, oh no, okay, things aren't matching up here, and then we're debating over whose translation is correct. Yeah, this avoids that. If we can use their, if we can use their version, well, we're in good shape. Okay, and this is this leads to the other point. The other point is when they leave your door, they're leaving with their New World Translation under their arms. Yes. They won't take, usually, they won't take your Bible, they won't take your tracks. I mean, they've been trained to we don't take that stuff, okay? It's very isolated, this cult. And so um, they try and keep all that, the challenges, all the uh literature that's opposed to their teaching out of out of view. And so, but they do leave with their Bible, and so they can go back and check what you just what you just said to them. Yes. Okay, and so here's where I would go. I think one of the most persuasive uh passages in the in the Bible for arguing that Jesus is Jehovah is first found in Psalm 102. Psalm 102, 25 to 27. Okay, so I'm going to, when I'm reading from here, people are following along with their Bibles. I'm gonna be reading from the New World Translation.
SPEAKER_05Okay, I've got my version here. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. And it's and so here's what I would do I would start by just asking them, do you mind if I show you uh a verse about Jehovah? And usually they're gonna be excited, okay? Because, first of all, if you use the name Jehovah, you're gonna see a smile light up on their face because they they think that's really God's name. I mean, that is God's only name. And so, and this comes out of the Old Testament. There was uh, so there was uh the name for God was actually four letters that we that we put as Y-H-W-H, no vowels, Y-H-W-H, and that's called the tetragrammaton. And we and the tetragrammaton just means tetra four grammaton letters.
SPEAKER_04He was in Transformers, by the way. That's somebody else. That was yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that would be that's funny. And so, and so the so Yahweh, this is what we we think was translated Yahweh, and what they've done is transliterated Yahweh into Jehovah. Okay. Now, my English standard version will say in the Old Testament, capital L, small case, but still capital L O R D. So L-O-R-D, all capitals, but some kind of smaller case capitals. That is Yahweh, that's Jehovah. So when I'm reading my Bible to them, I will actually, in my mind, as soon as it says Lord like that, I'll say Jehovah, because I know that that's more comfortable for them. Okay. And so part of this is help making them feel comfortable. I should have mentioned when they come to my door, I don't just want to stand there at the door with them. They're used to people slamming the door in their face, um, that kind of thing. I want them to feel comfortable. I'll invite them in. Sometimes they'll come in, sometimes they won't. I'll offer them something to drink. You know, because we might be here for a second, you know. We don't want to rush this.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, if we want to make an impact. Okay. And so this is crucial. Just showing the love of Christ when they're at the door. Um it's it's it's very common. If they come to the door, of course, they don't disagree with you. And so you kind of get your dukes up, you uh are already in a defensive posture. That's not going to come across as loving. Yeah. And so we want to be as gracious and loving as possible. So here's so here we go. Psalm 102, 25, 27, New World Translation says this. It says, Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. So that's 25. That basically says your creator. Your creator. It says 26. They will perish, but you will remain just like a garment, they will all wear out, just like clothing, you will replace them, and they will pass away. But you are the same, and your years will never end.
SPEAKER_0320.
SPEAKER_01So 27, you are the same, you are unchanging. You are, theologians say, immutable, right? You are immutable, and your years will never end, you are eternal. So here we have, here we have it is three in three verses. We have the unique creator, immutable or unchanging, uh, eternal God. Okay. And so these are the these are attributes. Oh, you ask them, who is the you? Long ago, you laid the foundation of the earth. Who is the you in this passage? And your Jehovah's Witness friend is going to say, and they're gonna be excited to say, Jehovah. Yeah, this is Jehovah. Yeah, now some Jehovah's Witnesses maybe have never read this passage, okay? And so you got to be prepared, just like if someone sprang a verse on you, you may not know it off the top of your head, who it's talking about, or the context. You can help them and say, Well, if you don't know it's Jehovah, if you just go back to the very first verse, verse one of Psalm 102, says, Oh Jehovah, hear my prayer. Yeah, let my cry for help reach you. Verse 12 says, You uh, but you remain forever, O Jehovah, and your fame will endure for all generations. 21 says that the name of Jehovah will be declared in Zion and the praise in Jerusalem. So six times in this passage, Jehovah's name is used. It's referred, this passage is so clearly referring to the unique creator uh who is eternal and unchanging, Jehovah. Yeah. Okay, so once you've made that point, I mean, you cannot leave that passage until they agree with you. Okay. Okay. And it shouldn't be, I mean, it shouldn't be really debatable. Now, uh, what you want to do next is you want to flip to the New Testament.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01You want to ask your, you ask your Jehovah's Witness friend to go to uh Hebrews chapter one.
SPEAKER_04And they they love Bible study, don't they? They actually love doing this.
SPEAKER_01No, the reason they're at your door is to do a Bible study. Yeah. Like sometimes they're there just to show you an article in the watchtower or something, but if they're and they will be excited to have a little Bible study with you, especially if you're using their translation, right? Yeah, brilliant. So uh now you want to you want to be in Hebrews chapter one, verses 10 to 12 is where we're gonna land. But I usually back it up and go to verse six. So this is again in their translation, it says, but when you again uh but when he again brings his firstborn, we're gonna talk about what it means to be firstborn, into the inhabited earth, he says, Let all of God's angels do obeisance, obeisance to him. Now, what's obeisance? This is actually in our translation, it says worship, yeah, because the Greek word there is proscuneo. And so they but they cannot have the angels, God's angels, worshiping Jesus because only Jesus can be worshipped alone. I mean, only God can be worshipped alone.
SPEAKER_05You can't worship angels, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so this would mean that Jesus is God. So they changed the word there to obeisance, which which means like you know, curtsy or bend a knee, you know, show a sign of reverence by by your body movement.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01So it's it goes on from there. So just leave that alone. You can debate that, but you want to make a bigger point here. So I would just leave it. Yeah, verse seven says also he says about the angels, he makes his spirit uh angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire. Here's the key verse, verse eight. But about the sun, he says, God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of righteousness of uprightness. Now, there's something fishy about verse eight as well. Um, it says, God is your throne.
SPEAKER_04Which is Psalm 45, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's right. Yeah, but this actually, this is a mistran. They they translate it, God is your throne when it should say your throne, oh God. Yeah, so this is God speaking to the sun, yeah, but about the sun, he says, Yeah, God speaking to the sun, calling the sun God. Yeah, again, they can't have that. This is, I mean, they've got to do some serious hermeneutical gymnastics around these these verses here. But again, we're gonna leave that dangling carrot. Okay, just just ignore it because we're gonna make a bigger point, yeah, right? So uh so we we keep going. So it's about the sun. So he says this, and then uh we get to verse 10. And it says, and so about the sun, he says this, you know, your throne, oh god, your God. God is your throne. And then verse 10, continuing to talk to the sun, God says this at the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hand. It should already sound familiar. They will perish, but you will remain just like a garment, they will all wear out, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end. Now, this should sound very familiar. In fact, in the New World Translation, there will be a little star beside these verses, and it will say, This is actually a reference to Psalm 102, 25 to 27.
SPEAKER_05Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, this is incredible because your Jehovah's Witness friend, they've already agreed that Psalm 102, 25 to 27, is a description of the eternal, changeless creator, Jehovah. Yes, the you, the you in Psalm 102 is Jehovah. Yeah, but here, who's the you? It says, at the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth. That's the exact same phrase. Yeah, but this time the you is not referring to Jehovah, it's referring to the Son. Yeah, it's referring to Jesus. So this is my question. This is the question to my Jehovah's Witness. I ask, is Psalm 102 about Jesus or Jehovah? And the answer is yes. Because it's about because Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus is Jehovah.
SPEAKER_05Amen. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I feel like, and and you what you will get in response to this is the sound of silence. Because most Jehovah's Witnesses have not, first of all, ever considered connecting these two passages together. Um, they just haven't been trained on this. This is not part of, you know, this isn't like John 1.1. This just seems clear. Jesus is Jehovah passage. And so, and and here's the thing: we don't, this isn't okay, let's, I gotcha, you know, let's laugh at them or let's, you know, aha, moment kind of thing. Yeah. Um, we're not, we're again, we're being gracious here. This is something they've probably never seen before. And so we need to show grace and say, listen, while you're thinking about that, I want to show you another one.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Do we have time to do another one?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, do another one, please. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So what I do now, because we're already in the New Testament, I just hop over to John 12.41.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01So I'll go to John 12.41. Again, you want to show the context. It shows that you know you're not just picking a proof text out, you're not just grabbing a verse and saying, you know, deal with this. So giving the context, this is this is in the context of Jesus ending his his public ministries at the end of his public ministry, starting his private ministry with his disciples. And now he's just performed many signs, and there's people that still will not believe in Jesus. And so John uh 12, let's go to 39. Again, this is New World Translation, says, the reason why they will not bel uh they are not able to believe is again, is that again, Isaiah said, and so here we're gonna have a quote from Isaiah in verse 40. It says, He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and turn around and I heal them. Okay, this is actually from Isaiah 6, verse 10. So he just quotes Isaiah and then verse 41. This is important to connect these two verses, because 41 says, Isaiah said these things, what things? Well, what he just said from Isaiah 6, verse 10. He said these things because he saw his glory and he spoke about him. He said these things because he spoke about him, because he saw his glory and he spoke about him. And then it goes on. All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but they would not acknowledge him, the hymn again being Jesus. I mean, it's the context because of the Pharisees, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue, for they love the glory of men even more than the glory of God. Okay, here's what here's what we ask. At this point, we'd ask who did Isaiah see? Who did Isaiah see? I mean, the hymn is clearly. In verse 41, talking about Jesus. They wouldn't believe in him because uh their hearts are hard, their eyes can't see. The hymn is Jesus here in the context. There's no there's no other subject, right?
SPEAKER_04It's it's Jesus, totally.
SPEAKER_01It's yeah, so so then you go back to the old testament again. Well, Isaiah saw his glory, spoke about him, he said these things. Well, those these things are referring to Isaiah 6, verse 10. If you go to Isaiah 6, you'll see just a profound text. Most Christians know Isaiah 6, verse 1 to 3. And this is what it says in their translation. In the year that King Uzziah died, his important part. I saw Jehovah. I saw Jehovah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. And then it goes on, uh, it talks about the seraphim. There's six of them. And then it says, and and one called to another, Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory. There it is. Isaiah saw his glory, right? His well, and this actually, this text is even stronger than it appears in the New World translation because John would have used the apostle John would have used the Septuagint, which is the uh Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. Okay, so the Greek-speaking uh Jews at the time would have probably read the Old Testament in Greek called the Septuagint. Well, when you go to the Septuagint and look at that first verse, Isaiah 6, 1, it says, And it came to pass that in the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord or Jehovah sitting on a high and exalted throne, but it doesn't end there. It says, And the house was full of his glory. In the first verse, he saw Jehovah, it was full of his glory.
SPEAKER_04So that's what John's referring to, John 12. Saw his glory and spoke about him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's right. So if you ask Isaiah, who was sitting on the throne, Isaiah, he would Isaiah would say, I saw Jehovah. I just told you. Verse 1, I saw Jehovah, I saw his glory. Yeah. But if you would ask John, who did Isaiah see? John, who did Isaiah see? He would have said, Jesus. He saw his glory. And this only makes sense if Jesus is Jehovah.
SPEAKER_04Jesus is Jehovah. And that, yeah, that's that's your straight line. And so you want a witness to Jehovah? Well, Jesus is Jehovah.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And I mean, this is the place where you want to go. There's I mean, there's lots of ways you can uh you can go about arguing Jesus God. But to the Jehovah's Witness, this I mean, this is what they want to see.
SPEAKER_04Do they have a strong doctrine of the invisibility, the transcendence of Jehovah, such that, you know, it would they even like without the New Testament, just look at Isaiah 6 and think, oh, how how does anyone see Jehovah? Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Like Yeah. So I I would say that they I think they do have a strong, uh, they do have a strong um concept of God being kind of this invisible, um, infinite, eternal creator. I think they would agree with all those attributes. Yeah. Um I don't I to be honest, I don't know what they would say to seeing Jehovah on a throne, as if he was, you know, someone you could see on a throne.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I and and I don't know how far we want to push the uh the the vision that he's seeing. Sure. Um uh is everything he's seeing literal, uh, or is there something more metaphorical going on there? Yes. I think you could probably argue um some in different ways there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and probably you'd get different Christians uh d debating one another on that issue. Sure, you you've got it. You've got it.
SPEAKER_01So that would be more an interpretation of like uh uh how do we interpret that text?
SPEAKER_04Do you ever do yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_01No, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04Do you ever do stuff on sort of uh verses in the Old Testament where you you kind of get two persons called Jehovah kind of interacting in one text? You know, some sometimes I'll take them to Genesis 18 verse 1, where you know Jehovah appears to Abraham, and it turns out that there are two other angels with him, and then he shares a meal with uh Abraham, and then you get into Genesis 19, and it's the it's the bit about Sodom, and Abraham is kind of interceding on behalf of Sodom, and you know, suppose there are 50 righteous people, what about 45? What about 40, 30? Gets them down to 10.
SPEAKER_01You got it.
SPEAKER_04And then eventually in Genesis 19, verse 24, here is this you know, there is this Lord who has just shared a meal with Abraham, who he's been interceding with. And then in Genesis 19, 24 it says, Then Jehovah, and it's been the Jehovah that's been speaking with Abraham, then Jehovah made it rain, sulphur, and fire from Jehovah from the heavens.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Again, that it that seems like a clear, I mean, that's another verse that it would be great to share with a Jehovah's Witness. Uh, they might, I mean, the the traditional view would be this is uh either a theophany or it which is kind of a God materializing himself on on earth, uh, could be a Christophany, which is you have the you know pre-incarnate Christ uh coming to the earth and and and uh and doing these things that you're talking about, even eating, you know. And so um yeah, there's some there's some debate over that as well.
SPEAKER_04But that yeah, I mean that's that's kind of the the historic position in the church is that this you know here here is the pre-incarnate Christ. Um but the fact that he is called Jehovah um and and calls down uh judgment from Jehovah out of the heavens is is that's right. It's pause for thought.
SPEAKER_01It is, it is, and this gets into the the the Trinity, you know, and the the persons of Christ. I think this just adds to our case that um, and you could add many, many verses to show that there seems to be three persons, three distinct persons who share one co-equal, co-eternal, divine nature. Yes. Um and and these are great verses to show from the the old testament, yes, and there are many from the new.
SPEAKER_04And each each can take the name Jehovah, and therefore to which Jehovah are you witnessing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. That's right.
SPEAKER_02That was Timothy Barnett um speaking from uh Stand to Reason. We sort of split his interview into two, and we're gonna hear the next half next time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But um yeah, just a great encouragement to um to open up your Bibles with Jehovah's Witnesses. If there's anyone who's gonna do a Bible study with you, it's probably a Jehovah's Witness. Um so yeah, be ready and be engaged, and um yeah, I think he's given some some good pointers there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well that's it pretty much for for this week. Uh if you'd like listening, we'd really appreciate a rating and review on iTunes. It helps us to get seen by more people. Just go to the website for the podcast. There's a link there, speaklife.org.uk slash tep.
SPEAKER_04And when I get sharing on social media just this week, I had I had two different friends uh who've known me for for a couple of years, and they're like, I've just discovered the Evangelist podcast, and this is like this is like the best kept secret in all podcasts. And so yeah, so they were very kind on uh on Facebook and on Twitter. So why not why don't you find us Speak Life uh uh on Facebook and Speak Life UK on Twitter and uh and start sharing around because um yeah, share the wealth, why not?
SPEAKER_02Okay, thanks very much and see you next time. Yeah.