Today is the digital effects podcast. We continue thinking about reaching out to the moment.
SPEAKER_01We are looking at uh reaching moments today. We're looking at uh project to communicate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so we think that more minutes and easy line with that uh two slides of the world's high idea.
SPEAKER_01So we looked at uh we spoke to work when we've heard the first of the last year before you tell us about itself that is on history and getting us into what is the form of actually believe.
SPEAKER_04And so just familiarizing ourselves with just format uh with sort of key believers. And then now in this part of the episode, uh we're just going to be thinking about how it is uh we engage people, whether that's on the doorstep or whether that's in an ongoing relationship, what are the areas of conversation we want to focus on, uh, what are the scriptures we want to have in mind of this.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well before we go off, I want to tell you about our speak life daily. It's a small pocket size booklet that tells 31 stories of what God is doing around the world. It's got information about uh what we do here at Speak Life, uh also at Cliff. And also uh it gives us some the functional content as well. So to pick up a copy, it's free. And you can pick it up at speaklife.org.uk slash tep. Uh click the link there and uh you can sign up to receive it via post or via email.
SPEAKER_04Okay, just uh let's now get up to date when uh when Bill is gonna be in the Bill McKeever is coming to the UK and uh he'll be here very soon. So uh he's uh in Bradford on the 19th of September, he is in uh North Ireland in Bangor on the 22nd of September, he is in Dundee in Scotland on the 23rd of September, and he is in London on the 26th of September. And once you've heard this interview, I'm sure you'll be very keen to get off.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well uh let's hear it.
SPEAKER_04So uh you've got a Mormon on your doorstep. I'll ask the question in two different ways. One is when you've you've just met a Mormon for the first time and they're trying to share their faith with you. And then I'll ask uh uh about areas you'd want to talk in uh in terms of ongoing relationship. But but when you first meet a Mormon on on the doorstep or on s in in in the street or something something like that, what are the sorts of things you'd want to be talking to them uh about evangelistically?
SPEAKER_03Well, the the area that I like to focus on deals with where that individual Mormon is right now in light of eternity. I I don't have any problems letting the Mormon know that as a Christian, I have full assurance that all my sins are forgiven. And if I was to die right now, that I would be in the presence of my God. I have no qualms about telling a Mormon that. If you were to die right now, do you have the complete assurance that all your sins are forgiven and that you would get the best your religion has for you? Surprisingly, I rarely get a yes answer to that question from a Latter-day Saint. Usually the answer is something like, well, I hope so, or I think so, or something like that. Well, there's a reason for that kind of an answer. And it goes back to those two requirements that a Mormon must meet in order to know for sure they've done everything that they're supposed to do. That is repent of all their sins, confess, and abandon all their sins, and keep all the commandments. And of course, no Mormon has done that. I'll tell you a quick story here, Glenn. I had a couple sister missionaries come to my door, and they were inviting the neighbors in on my street to attend this musical. And I probably didn't look all that interested when they told me that at the door, and then maybe they saw the cross that I have hanging on the wall behind my front door and recognized that I was a Christian. So all of a sudden she says, Well, the the musical is all about Jesus. I went, Oh. I said, Well, tell me about your Jesus. So they proceeded to tell me about their Jesus being the Savior. I can't remember specifically if she said our Savior or the Savior. Usually it's the Savior. So I asked her, Well, what does it take for Jesus to be your Savior? And it was textbook. She starts telling me about repentance. I said, Well, how do you define repentance? She gave me a textbook answer, confess and forsake. I said, Well, how many sins must you forsake? She said, all of them. I said, Well, how are you doing it then? She said, Well, I'm trying. At that point, I I use this illustration and I've used it many times, and it seems to work with most Latter-day Saints. Whenever a person uses the word try, it's always in the context of failure. A person who has accomplished something doesn't say they tried, they say they did it. But when a Mormon tells you they're trying to repent, it means they haven't accomplished it yet. And I and so I told her that story. I use the illustration of climbing a mountain. If I said I tried to climb it, would you think I did?
SPEAKER_02She said, No.
SPEAKER_03I said, Don't you also have to keep commandments? She said, Oh yeah. I said, Well, how many commandments must you keep? She said, All of them. And I said, Well, how are you doing at that? And again she starts to give me this, well, I'm trying. And it was almost like she realized she had just stepped in it, because we had already talked about that. And this is how I wrapped it up with her. I said, let me see if I understand this correctly. In order to for Jesus to be your Savior, you have to repent of all your sins, uh, confess them and forsake them, which you say you haven't done, but you're trying, and that's noble. I I can appreciate that. But you also say you have to keep all the commandments. Another thing you say you're trying to do, but you haven't accomplished. I says, now, if these are the two elements for becoming forgiven and Jesus to be your savior, can I assume that Jesus is not your savior right now?
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_03There was this awkward pause.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and then she starts to say, Well, well, but you know, but Heavenly Father loves us. I says, Well, I I understand what you're saying. I says, but doesn't your own scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants, section one, verse thirty-one, say that your God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance? That's what it says. And I think she was recognizing the problem, the dilemma she was now faced with. If she wants to be a Mormon, these are the rules she has to follow. And I remind Mormons of that. Look, if you want to be a Mormon, that's your business. But here are the rules you have to follow. Are you going to be able to follow them? And if not, where do Mormons like you go when they die? Because it's not the celestial kingdom.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_03At best, it would be the same place they think most of us are going. And when they do acknowledge that, I say, well, if we're all ending up in the same place, why should I become a Mormon? I can drink coffee and go there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I notice that you you you use your Jesus and my God. Um you think you think it's it's important to make clear in your conversations that we're talking about different Jesus and different gods?
SPEAKER_03I I think it is, because many Latter-day Saints will try to give the impression that their Jesus is the same as our Jesus. The problem, of course, is Mormon leaders have made it clear that that's not the case. Let me give you a quote from Gordon Hinckley. Gordon Hinckley, Gordon D. Hinckley was the 15th president of the Mormon Church. He was speaking in conference in April of 2002, and this is what he said. As a church, we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. And that's a Mormon leader, the top guy at the time, admitting that there is a difference between what Mormons say and talk about when it comes to Jesus and what we say and talk about, our Jesus. So I think it's it's okay for the Christian to make that distinction. It may offend a Mormon at the beginning of the conversation, but perhaps it would help if the Christian reminded the Mormon that his leaders have actually made this distinction. I'm not making it, they are making it. And if they are making that distinction, why would I not be concerned about that?
SPEAKER_04Yes, interesting. Everything you're saying is reminding me so much of Islam. Um and and in particular and on and on this issue, you know, well, I I say, well, look, Surah 112 says Allah is one, he does not beget, nor is he begotten. So he let's just allow Allah to define himself in his own scriptures, and that's different from how the Father begetting the Son is defined in our scriptures. So let's just uh let's just have an integrity enough to say that you're describing one God and we're describing another.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I wish I I wish more Christians would politely insist on that distinction, because again, there are so many statements that have been made which clearly show that the Jesus they're talking about is not our Jesus. I mean, there's no way that we would say that our Jesus became God at any time. He was always God. Our our the one we describe as God the Father was always God. So we are not talking about the same being in that aspect alone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it's amazing that when I do walk with a Mormon through this, I have had some Mormons say, Well, you know, now I see why you hold that position. I I we really don't seem to agree in this area. Well, here's my point. If in fact the Mormons are worshiping a different God, then how could they really consider themselves to be latter-day saints? Wouldn't it be more consistent to say they perhaps they are latter-day idolaters because they are not worshiping the God of the Bible? And that's a theory of defense. He doesn't exist, really. They use his name, but even Bruce McConkey, a Mormon apostle, criticized Bible-believing Christians for using the same names while insisting at the same time that their God was not the same. Our God is not the same as the Mormon God.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's a Mormon apostle saying that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, so assurance and the issue of assurance is just one to zero in on in your first in your first contact with within.
SPEAKER_03I think it is, because it's using really an approach that's no different than what I think the Apostle Paul was using in the New Testament when he talked to the Jews. He was first trying to get them to see their lostness before he tries to offer them a way to be saved. And I think many times Mormons need to see that Mormonism is futile. You're not going to live up to the standards. So I'm try what you're being handed is a life preserver made of lead. And it's not going to help them. And I want them to see that not only are they not meeting the requirement for exaltation at the moment I'm talking with them, they're never going to meet this obligation in order to achieve exaltation. So what I'm trying to do is to get them to see that Mormonism doesn't help them. And that the gospel, mainly because it's called the gospel, the good news is because people can actually have it. You can't have the Mormon gospel. There is no good news in Mormonism because nobody really has it in Mormonism.
SPEAKER_04Good advice that's not even that good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I just want to interrupt at this point to say that uh we've prepared a PDF of notes of this episode. And uh if you'd like to download that for your own reference, then you can do so. Just go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep. And if you click on this episode, which is TEP 110, there'll be the link on that page. So it's a PDF covering the main points that Bill and uh Glenn are talking about. Just go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep and click on the episode 110. Okay, I'll let you get back to the interview.
SPEAKER_04And so over the longer haul, so let's let's say y you're befriending your your Mormon friend and and you you're having some of the assurance questions and and you you're sowing those seeds of doubt. Um if they're trying, then maybe they're they're actually failing. How how do you go on witnessing uh over the longer haul to a to a Mormon friend?
SPEAKER_03Well, I I think if it we're talking about a relationship here with a neighbor or something, that definitely now I would move on into the more historical problems that I see in Mormonism, asking them, look, I was reading this on a Mormon website, or I was reading this in a Mormon book, and this person said such and such. This concerns me. What do you think about this? Always putting everything into a question. I often tell people when I speak, don't ever accuse a Mormon of anything. Always ask them what they believe because you don't know where they may be in a Mormon. Some are more advanced than others. And I have talked to Mormons who really don't know much of anything about their faith. And of course, I've talked to many that defend their faith, you know, on a more of a part-time or full-time basis. So how I approach them is going to be a little bit different. But I do recommend that we eventually move on into the historical problems of Mormonism. But here I think it becomes important that if a mor if that if a Christian is going to do this, they might want to have their evidence at hand, have some of the quotations with them, and read them to their Mormon friend and ask them, well, what do you think about this? Because this is what I'm getting from this statement. What are you getting from that? But always ask questions.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We know, we know from reading Mormon blog sites that historical issues do bother Latter-day Saints, especially when a historical issue is brought up by a non-member of the church.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_03So I'm not saying don't ever bring up historical issues. I'm just saying you want to be careful when you do, because many Mormons not familiar with their own history are going to think you probably made that up, or at least you're exaggerating.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So uh one of the questions I I put out on Twitter, uh, what people would like uh to ask you, and uh, I got uh a couple of questions. One from Neil, who asks, uh how much should we use the weirder views of Mormonism in evangelism? He says, such as spirit wives or colob or colored people, how much should we should we bring up those issues and make them feel uncomfortable about what they already believe as opposed to that'd be that'd be a great question.
SPEAKER_03I I think it goes back to, well, how comfortable do you think uh uh that person is going to feel if you were to bring it up right now? Is it the time to bring up some of those things? Or have you, uh I I guess the way I would put it, have you earned the right to be heard with this Latter-day Saint on that particular issue?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But again, if you're couching the question as a concern that you have and you're interested in wanting to know what your Mormon friend has to say about this, I I find that some Mormons aren't really bothered by that.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03But they don't like being accused of this. Give them the opportunity to try and explain this.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Help me to understand spirit wives, you say, or something like that. You know. I I'd like to understand your views.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if you were to say, well, I I heard that you believe that your God is married and and that he has a heaven and there's a heavenly mother, is that true? And then let them answer the question.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and I think that's probably one of the better ways to approach the subject. Let them explain what they believe on the subject. Sometimes they will agree with what their church has said, sometimes they won't. And there are times when I've had Mormons disagree what their church teaches on a particular topic, and I'll commend them for that. So, you know, it's interesting that you say this. I said, because that sounds pretty close to what I as an evangelical Christian believe, but but what do you do with this statement by President so-and-so, who said this? Do you see this as a contradiction or do you see it as complimenting what you just told me? And then again, I'm giving the Mormon the opportunity to answer the question for me.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Yeah, that's very, very helpful. Um I I've got a uh a pastor friend who I know sort of online who's in Utah, who who kind of he sort of speaks about his ministry, the Mormons, in two halves. He says the the first half of his uh ministry, he he he saw people leaving Mormonism, but he didn't see a lot of people coming to faith in Christ. And and he said and it became i yeah, it was a real shift in his thinking that that that perhaps some of the things he was doing was simply undermine uh undermining faith in in Latter-day Saints. How do we how do we make sure we're not just shaking their confidence in in Mormonism and actually building confidence in Christ?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think sometimes we as Christians can be a little too hard on ourselves in this issue because a lot of Latter-day Saints, when they leave the church, they do end up becoming agnostic or atheist. I don't know if that's so much because of the approach that they were given by the Christian that talked to them, as it is something that's ingrained in Mormons in particular. What I mean by that is I have talked to many Latter-day Saints who have told me, and I think this statement is silly, but this is what they've been led to believe. If the Mormon church is not true, nothing is. And there's a question sometimes I'll ask a Mormon. I'll say, When you finally get to the point where you see that Mormonism is not true, will you abandon any faith that you have in Jesus right now? Now, now mind you, at this point we've not really discussed all the big differences between their Jesus and mine. I'm just gonna let it go at the point that they say they believe in Jesus. At this point in the conversation, I'm content with that. But I want to let them know something. When they come to the point that they realize Mormonism isn't true, are they going to abandon any and all faith they may have in Jesus? Now, at this point in the conversation, 99% of the time they're gonna say, absolutely not. And I'll say, Good. I'd like to hold you to that. Yes, that day is going to be coming. Yes. And I'll let them remember what I said to them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Amazing. And uh I've got I've got another question from uh Kevin on Twitter. He asks, um, should we love bomb Mormons to win them like they do to others? I.e., should we get them to belong and then they will believe? Can you just uh explain a little bit about love bombing love bombing?
SPEAKER_03Well, I I think what we're talking about is the difference between relationship evangelism and stranger evangelism. And and certainly I think we have to portray to the Latter day Saint as anybody we're talking to, that we have a genuine concern for them as people. I do a lot of stranger evangelism. In other words, talking to people that I don't know. And naturally, I'm not gonna have a lot of that time to build a relationship with many of those people, so I get right to the heart of the matter with them. And I find that a lot of Mormons don't really have a problem with. That because I don't know them, they don't know me, you know, things like that, and so we'll go our merry ways, but let's have an effective dialogue and talk about some questions that are really important to each of us. So, um, in a relationship, certainly, they need to feel a trust with you to sense that you're really concerned for them, and I think to a certain extent that needs to be the same in a stranger situation. But I don't rule out any any type of approach. And sometimes I find those that emphasize the relationship type evangelism do so at the expense of stranger evangelism. I like using both, depending on the situation. But in in answer to that question, definitely we should show that we have a genuine concern for them, no matter what it is, stranger or a relationship.
SPEAKER_04Great. And I mean, do you see Mormons coming to to faith in in Christ and and and if so, what what is it that seems to shift in their in their thinking and understanding?
SPEAKER_03Well, we are seeing a lot of Mormons come to faith in Christ. Uh certainly that is happening. I think one of the reasons why that could be happening is because even as Latter-day Saints, they had a desire to really want to believe and serve the God that they understood him to be at the time. And usually, when a Mormon sees the historical problems of their faith and still wants to hold on to a relationship with God, eventually they will also come to see the differences between the God they were worshiping and the God they should be worshiping. And that kind of transition is not difficult for them. Once they see that Mormonism is not true, but they still want to have a belief in God. They still want to have a faith. But I don't see with a lot of those that come out of Mormonism wanting to be a person of faith merely exchanging the attributes of their God with the attributes of the God of the Bible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's not that difficult for them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, interesting. Uh last couple of questions. I'm gonna ask you about uh you're coming to the UK very soon. Um, but just Bill, why do you do what you do? Why do you why do you get up in the morning and and and continue um your your ministry to Mormons?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think the same thing that drives me drives all Christian missionaries. We we feel a calling to a certain type of people, a certain people group, and we want to see the best for those people that God has put on our heart. And uh again, I I've been among Mormons for, I guess you could say, all of my Christian life, and I've come to love these people, and I'm very concerned for those individuals, and I value truth. And I get asked that question a lot by Mormons. Well, why isn't you do this? I want them to have the assurance that everything has been taken care of for them when it comes to their eternity, and the only way they can have that assurance is by placing their complete and total trust in what Jesus did on the cross at Calvary, not what they think they must add to it. Because once you think you've got to add something to Christ's death and resurrection, you're never going to be able to do it. And so the assurance is thrown right out the window. I want them to have that assurance. Because I think as far as a Christian being concerned, and I'm a convert, I converted, you know, after high school. I think that's one of the greatest things about Christianity is the assurance we can have in our faith in Christ, knowing that everything has been taken care of.
SPEAKER_04Well it's incredible thought. It is incredible, and it's it's it's really encouraged me, um, just just having this conversation about Mormonism. And I and I I guess as we engage with people of other faiths, so often it just sends us back to the scriptures, sends us back to the gospel with a renewed confidence that Jesus really is good news. Um so there's there's another there's another reason to engage in these kind of dialogues too. Um so Bill, you're coming over to the UK soon, is that is that right? I am.
SPEAKER_03Um September.
SPEAKER_04Looking forward to it. Fantastic. I've got some dates. We'll put these on the show notes as well, but you'll be uh up north uh Bradford, if you're in the north of England. Uh come and see Bill. And uh and are there others um from Mormonism Research Ministry coming with you?
SPEAKER_03No, I'm gonna be the only one on this trip.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So there'll be Bill that you can come and meet. So 19th of September in Bradford, uh, 22nd of September in Northern Ireland in Bangor, uh 23rd of September in Dundee in Scotland, and then uh a day conference in London on the 26th of September at St. Luke's Church, Wimbledon. We'll put those uh details on the show notes, but uh I think people will be really uh interested in coming along and hearing more about this, not only so that they can engage uh with uh with Mormons in the in the gospel, but also to engage their own hearts and minds in the goodness of the good news and and how we can share it with others. So, Bill, it's been uh uh absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for giving your time.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I'm glad you could do this.
SPEAKER_04Oh, fantastic. And uh and if I can get up on the twenty-sixth, I'd love to I'd love to come and say hello in Wimbledon. That'd be great. Oh, I'd be honored, that would be great. Thank you so much. All right. God bless then, bye-bye.
SPEAKER_01So that's uh Bill McKeever talking to you, Glenn, uh earlier. What kind of uh strikes you about the what he said there?
SPEAKER_04I think what he's helped um me to do is uh really to focus in on that question of assurance, um that that real sense that uh we have Romans chapter 8, that the spirit of the Son testifies with our hearts that we are God's children. And it's very interesting, you know, all the times that I've spoken to to Mormons, when you press them and press them about what it is they are founding their faith on, really it's on a feeling. You know, they've they've wanted that witness in their hearts, the witness of the Holy Ghost that's gonna, you know, because James One says, if anyone lacks wisdom, ask. And and so they so very strongly within Mormonism, there's that sense that you need to pray, and you will have this warm sense of the Holy Spirit's, you know, kind of testifying to you that that Joseph Smith is a true prophet and all this kind of stuff. And yet when you push into it, that spiritual experience leads them into ever more slavery. Yes. And it leads them into ever more hoop jumping and box ticking, and have I done enough? And they're never sure. And so going to Romans 8, for instance, is just so key, and just sort of saying, actually, a true experience of the Holy Spirit, the spirit of the Son, leads you away from slavery and into freedom. He has not He has not given us a spirit of slavery again to fear, but he's given us the spirit of his son by whom we cry up a Father. Um and so Bill's Bill's kind of focus on that assurance that we have of as believers that Christ is given to us entirely by the Spirit, and therefore we are adopted as children into the family for free and forever. Um not only is that a wonderful thing to offer to Mormons, it's also a wonderful truth to refresh yourself with and to um and to really rejoice in. So uh uh yeah, I I learnt uh a lot from Bill, especially on that that issue of assurance and and uh zeroing in on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, excellent.
SPEAKER_04Good. Well, can you just give us the dates again for for when he's in the UK? Brilliant, we'll put this on the show notes. Uh, but he's in Bradford on the 19th of September, he is in Northern Ireland in uh Bangor on the 22nd of September, he is in uh Dundee on the 23rd of September, and he's back down in London on the 26th of September. Do get along.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, to find that uh on the website, go to speaklife.org.uk slash TEP. You can also sign up for our free Speak Life Daily magazine. Uh and what have we got on next week? Just uh whet our appetites.
SPEAKER_04Oh my goodness, you are in for such a treat. We're talking to, I think, the foremost Christian apologist to the Muslim world. It's Jay Smith. And uh he uh is a phenomenal apologist and evangelist, really, and polemist. Uh and he likes the word polemetist because, you know, he's not just uh an apologist uh always kind of you know dealing with objections, he's getting on the front foot and uh he's brilliant. If you ever want to go down to Speaker's Corner on a Sunday afternoon, you can see uh Jay Smith in action, or you can go to his YouTube channel and see him at Speaker's Corner in action. He's got his own PA system right there in his chest. It just kind of just comes out. And uh, but uh he's speaking to me about Islam and how we reach out to Islam. And interestingly, you know, there's a lot of parallels with Mormonism actually. Um, you know, there's this prophet who comes later who you know comes up with this book that you know it's meant to be the true book and let's forget so much about the Bible and that kind of thing. So uh and there's all sorts of issues with assurance, and there's all sorts of issues with the character of the prophet and all sorts of things. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of uh overlap with Islam, but but there's you know well over a billion Muslims on the planet, so it's uh it's really good that we get uh familiar with what they believe and how we reach out to them. So that's what we're gonna talk about.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, don't miss it. Let's tune in next time for the evangelist podcast. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.