The Evangelists Podcast. Encouragement to speak life to a needy world. With Glenn Scrivener and Andy Brinkley. You're listening to the Evangelist Podcast from Speak Life. We're continuing our series on social action and the gospel. And we're on episode four. And Glen, we've covered episode one, which was the uh Cinema Network's Faith Action Audit. Then we looked at the sort of history, social action, and evangelism, and we sort of saw that the last 40 years it's been most prominent that people have seen that social action and evangelism to be a balance. And we were looking at that, it's more of a flow in theological terms.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And then last time we looked at the theological side of things, the mission of the church is more uh like the the mission of God being sent out into the world and how we are sent out into the world.
SPEAKER_01Sent out into the world to proclaim Christ.
SPEAKER_00Is that a fair summary?
SPEAKER_01I think that's excellent. That's where we've come from. So we we in a sense we kind of started with the fact on the ground that actually the church is doing incredible things in society. Um and let the world take notice. There there is this fruit that comes from trusting in Jesus. And look at the fruit. There's this the three billion pounds worth of volunteer time that's given to the community every year. That's the fruit. Um but what's the root of it? And the root of it is proclaiming the gospel. And we just we've just wanted to be really clear that we shouldn't. If we want more fruit, let's attend to the roots and let's not get so uh focused on the fruit that we forget the roots and ha and where it comes from. And what I say it comes from is proclaiming Christ in the power of the Spirit, and that's what we're meant to. That is the mission of the church. The other stuff flows from it. Um but let's put first things first.
SPEAKER_00So what are the the key scriptures you think of when uh we're going through these questions?
SPEAKER_01Well, I yeah, I think um if you didn't tune into our last episode, have a have a listen to that, because I think the nature of God is massive in in this whole question. Um, that God Himself is not a balance between creation and salvation, that he himself is a flow, a father loving his son in the Spirit, and by the Son and through the Spirit both makes and redeems the world in one great movement, a movement that he sends the church out into. Um so that whole nature of God issue is massive, and then that earths itself in places like John chapter twenty, where Jesus says, As the Father has sent me, so am I sending you. With that, says John 20, verse 21, he breathed on the disciples. And he said, If you forgive anyone their sins, they're forgiven. If you do not forgive their sins, they are not forgiven. So basically he's saying, I've been sent by the Father into the world. The church, you are meant to go on this same mission that brings forgiveness to the world. Um so that that's very strong, isn't it, in terms of what the mission of the Church is. It's going in Jesus' name to proclaim forgiveness in the gospel. Um similarly, you could go to Matthew twenty-eight, which we've referred to many times in this series, so Matthew twenty-eight, the great commission, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all things that I've commanded, and surely I'll be with you till the end of the age. So again, here is this mission of word and sacrament to make disciples of Jesus. Um that's got to be prominent in our thinking. Another place that comes to mind for me quite a lot is 2 Corinthians chapter 4. Um there is the Apostle Paul talking about the great problem in the world, the great problem in the world is 2 Corinthians 4, verse 4, that the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. I mean, just for a start, think of that as the great plight of this world. It's a plight that is even more terrifying than asylum seekers drowning in the Mediterranean. It's a plight that is even more horrifying than that than the atrocities of ISIS. It is a plight that is even worse than those who die of preventable diseases in Africa every day. There is a power in this world, Satan, who is described as the god of this age, blinding the minds of unbelievers. It's just a terrifying thought, isn't it? So that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ. That is terrifying. The trouble is we don't see that need in the world. Um we can see photographs of upturned boats in the Mediterranean and people clinging on for dear life, and quite rightly that that moves us. We can't see this tragedy, but it is an even greater tragedy. People are blinded by Satan to the glory of Christ. What should we do in the face of such a plight? Verse 5. What we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. I think that's really important. So Paul says, Look, we preach Christ and him crucified. This is our mission. Which is might be surprising. You know, you you think of a massive spiritual battle. What should you do? Paul says, preach, preach, and preach some more, and serve others as you preach. So that's interesting. He does have a place for serving other people. But he doesn't say the mission of the church is service in general. And you can serve people on the one hand, you can preach to them to the gospel, on the other hand, you can do a soup kitchen, on the other hand, you can dig a well, and on the other hand, you can hand out tracts. He doesn't say that service is this umbrella term under which preaching exists and can be balanced against other things. The mission of the church, according to Paul, is the preaching of this gospel. Underneath the umbrella term of the preaching of the gospel, we serve other people. Absolutely we do. But it's the preaching of the gospel that is the front line of what we do. And as we go out into the world on that basis, verse six, God, who said, Let light shine out of darkness, makes his light shine in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God displayed in the face of Christ. Amazing. And here he is linking Genesis chapter one to the mission of the church. We thought about that last last time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. About Adam being told to go out into the world, you know, go go and multiply and being sent out to fill the world with new people, and Jesus did the same, but to fill them with the new creation.
SPEAKER_01Well, exactly. Yeah. Adam can only multiply people who are like him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Christ can multiply people by you know his spirit who are like him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and our mission, the mission of the church, is like the mission of the world, but it's been recapitulated. That was our word from last year, uh last week. Recapitulated. Brought, you know, we go back over the old ground and bring it up into something even more glorious. And how do we raise the glory of let light shine out of darkness to a new level? You know, the God who says, Let there be light, actually he says, Let there be light again as we preach the gospel. And as you preach the gospel and as the lights come on for people, the God of creation is doing that same work, that work of recreation. And so again, it's not it's not so much that you balance creation against salvation, but in this salvific mission out to the world, creation is being taken up into the purposes of God. We're not forgetting creation by doing a proclamation ministry. Um this is what creation is all about. Creation is all about people meeting the light of the world and to have his sunshine fall on them and to enlighten them. So this is this is the mission of the church, and so this is one of the big scriptures that come to mind. Um it's not that God sends the church into the world to serve in general, and preaching is one of the things we do. We preach not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and under that umbrella term, we serve others, but that's the mission of the church.
SPEAKER_00So, what is the place of you know these mercy ministries such as food bank and uh debt relief and homeless shelters and things like that?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01They're wonderful, and and as we keep saying, they are they are the fruit of this new life that comes in Christ. And I I I I think the place of mercy ministry f you know fits in a number of different places. For a start with individual Christians. Individual Christians are called to love their neighbour as their self. Um and I spend an awful lot of money and time and energy on my own, you know, personal blessing. And I take care of myself a very great deal and look after my own physical needs a very great deal. And if I'm unwilling to look after somebody else's physical needs, um I like that is completely unchristian to to not to not be about taking care of the physical needs of others. I lavish all sorts of time and money on my own physical needs. How dare I not spend money and time on other people's physical needs? So individual Christians who um want to help in this way, absolutely, um we must be. We must be doing this kind of stuff if we're going to love others as we love ourselves. I love myself not simply by making time to read my Bible. I love myself by making food for myself and clothing for myself and shelter for myself, and if and if I won't extend that kind of love to others, then I'm not being Christian. Um so there's all sorts of um there's a calling on on me to provide practically and physically for the needs of others. So food, bank, and debt relief and homeless shelters and all the rest of it, um, all sorts of space for that. So as an individual Christian, I do that. And it's interesting, you know, the Cinnamon Um Network's faith action audit is a real blessing to Christians to just sort of step back and see, oh, you know what, there's just a whole bunch of Christians who just get on and do stuff, and they never even knew we never even knew that we were doing all this stuff, but we really are doing all this stuff, um, because we just kind of get on and do it. So that's just great. That's just one of the fruits of the gospel that we get on and help in that way. I think also within the life of your local church, uh, we are called, according to Galatians 6 verse 2, to bear one another's burdens. And if there are needy people in your church, um then your church has a responsibility to bear the burdens um of those who are in need. Um and so absolutely within within the life of your local congregation, looking after one another's practical needs is massively important. Now extend that to the life of the global church. In the global church, you know, most Christians are so much poorer um than than than we are. I mean, I read a statistic the other day that um the average I happen to be an Anglican here in in in England, but the average Anglican in Nigeria um is uh a twenty-five-year-old woman who has to walk four miles to get water every day. You know, that that's the average, you know, Anglican in Nigeria, it's probably and probably therefore the average Anglican Anglican in the world is there. And there is great need overseas. Our brothers and sisters in Christ cry out for physical needs, and we need to be able to meet those physical needs if we are to be one church together. And Paul spent a lot of his time, yes, writing letters and yes preaching the gospel, but he would also take up collections and take the take it to the poor. And this was part of his ministry, and he didn't think it was a lesser ministry to do that, because if the church is meant to be this new community of Christ where we really care for one another, where we're really one together, and if that oneness is meant to be proclaiming to the world that we are Christ's disciples, John 13, verse 35, then of course we need to be involved in taking care of practical needs. Um so there's there's at least three kind of categories under which mercy ministries fits. As an individual Christian, I need to take care of practical needs. In the life of my local church, I need to bear one another's burdens. In the life of the global church, I need to make sure that the weaker members of the body are looked after. But also uh in proclaiming the gospel, there will be people who will hear the gospel, or who we want to reach with the gospel, who will have practical needs, and we need to serve those needs as we preach the gospel to them. You you move into a housing estate and you start getting into conversations about Jesus, people have complicated lives and they will need you to spend a lot of time with them sorting out their benefits payments, sorting out childcare for this, that, and the other, sorting out all sorts of practical needs. So as you preach the gospel, you can't help but be involved with serving people's physical needs. So in all these ways, that there is a place for mercy ministry, definitely.
SPEAKER_00So uh can I just run you past some uh scenarios, Glenn?
SPEAKER_01Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_00Um you walk out of here, a homeless person asks you for change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What do you do? What do you do? Well In the light of the gospel.
SPEAKER_01In the light in in the light of all that we've been saying and what the mission of the church is, um it it is absolutely not a betrayal of an evangelism only mission strategy to you know to not give that person money and just reach into your pocket for a tract and give them tract. Give them money. Give them money. Absolutely, you're you're a you're an individual Christian who is called to love your neighbor as yourself. Who then is my neighbor? says the person trying to justify themselves. And Jesus is like, yeah, even a Samaritan, a hated outsider who's not even a member of the people of God. Even them, you know. So, in in terms of my calling to love my neighbour as myself, um, you know, reach into your pocket and give money. You know, you might you might have all sorts of issues about, you know, maybe they'll spend it on drugs, and maybe instead you want to spend time with them and go for a meal with them and ask them, you know, let's have food together and uh and let me share the love of Christ as I share money with them. That would be a a much an even better thing to do. But yeah, as someone who is really narrow in what I think the mission of the church is, yes, I give money to people when they ask, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um another scenario. Uh what about like a big earthquake appeal asking for funds?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And um so the Nepal earthquake hits and um, you know, Oxfam shows up on my phone and it says, you know, give give money just by text and and what do I do? Do I do I say, oh but Oxfam won't preach the gospel to them? Or do I just think, you know what, if if the person in need was right there in front of me, could I possibly think to myself, you know, I I cannot give any help to this person in front of me unless there is some kind of spiritual opportunity to to evangelize them? No, of course not. You your heart goes out as as anyone's heart goes out. And and so, yeah, give give to money give give money to them. You you might want to think about how do I support the church in Nepal because you know, Galatians does say, does say that we should uh help the poor, especially those in the household of faith. So as as our hearts go out to people in general, I think our hearts will go out even more so to our brothers and sisters. Just as our brothers and sisters in the in the flesh call forth a lot more charitable giving than you know just the your regular neighbour, so our brothers and sisters in the faith call forth a a lot more charitable um giving from us. And so, yeah, when disasters like that hit, sure, give to Oxfam, give to Red Cross, give to Metasin Sans Frontier, give give to give to all these places if you want, but do especially think about giving towards um your brothers and sisters in the in the church, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So uh Christian charity is raising funds for well digging in Africa?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean so at that stage we mentioned, I think, in in episode one or two, about the fact that within evangelicalism there is just a such a proliferation of parachurch organizations that get into little specialities. And so you can have a a speciality and it's it's no bad thing necessarily to have a charity that really is good at digging wells in Nigeria or wherever. Um do I give towards that? Of course you can I think it becomes more tricky when charities have the Christian label on them, actually. Because at that stage it's i it's it's more tempting to say that this is part of the mission of the church or um Where I just don't think we should be too hung up if if a if a Christian charity that's not gonna mention Jesus is digging a well, and in the next village a non-Christian charity who's not gonna mention Jesus is digging a well, who should I prefer? And actually, to be honest, I don't know. If if neither of them are gonna mention Jesus, I don't know. Like give money to either, to be honest. Like you're you're helping with either. I don't think we need to have a a a rubber stamp with some kind of Christian label on it in order to do good in the world. Christians do not have a monopoly on good works in the world. Rotary goes out and does a lot of good works in the world. And it's you know, it is interesting. My mother, for instance, is uh is a member of Rotary and has the best evangelistic conversations ever because not only the people who she's helping are non-Christians, but the people alongside whom she's serving are also non-Christians. And she actually has a a a lot of opportunity to speak of Jesus in Rotary, which she might not have if she joined a you know an explicitly Christian charity and that kind of thing. So I I don't think we should be too hung up about always wanting to always wanting to serve practical needs in the name of Jesus when the in the name of Jesus bit just sounds a bit token sometimes. If it's gonna be token, then join Rotary, join Red Cross, you know. Um if you really want to if you really want to help a community, help the church in that community. And if that church is going to dig wells, support that church and support that well digging in the context of a church that is proclaiming Christ, because that's what's really going to help that community. But if you're going to divorce the social action from the gospel thing, then I don't know who to support at that stage. What we really should be supporting is the church.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, the last scenario then. What about if uh your church wants you to do something w wants to do something to serve the community?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which hopefully it does. Yeah. Um we yeah, we want to serve. So n none of this is like we don't want to serve the community. We just want to stay within our four walls and and preach sermons. Um it should never be that. But it should it it should be. We want to serve our communities, and the front foot priority is gospel proclamation, and and so, you know, uh in our church we've you know door-knocked the locality and and and asked people what they think the great needs are in the world, but also asked, well, how can we pray for you? Because we think that there's a God in heaven who defines what is really real, and and that's the real need, your spiritual need. And and so we've asked, you know, how we can serve people, and and you know, off the back of that we've done, you know, cap money courses, we've sh we've reshaped the way we do our toddler groups and that kind of thing, on the basis of what people have said. Um we've established a uh a men's work, Who Let the Dads Out, um, which is run in all sorts of churches around the place. Um uh on the basis of, you know, people perceive a need in the community, and here here are things that we can do. And we run that alongside. We take part in homeless shelter, we take part in a uh in a feeding project on a uh on a on a weekend from our church. Um but how we go about serving the church. It's really interesting in Mark chapter six. In Mark chapter six, it's uh the feeding of the five thousand, it's it's Mark's version of the feeding of the five thousand, and there is Jesus, and he looks on them and they're harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. And what does he do? He starts a soup kitchen. No, they're harassed and they're helpless and they're like sheep without a shepherd, and so he begins proclaiming the kingdom to them. And people come and as they come, they come with hunger, and he realizes that they're hungry, and then he provides their needs, their physical needs, like that.
SPEAKER_00And I I think you know I mean first he sort of says to the disciples, You go and do it. Yeah, you go and do it. Not you know, I'm going to, but you go and do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna preach. And and so that isn't that interesting. That's the way we would tend to do things is um let's have a soup kitchen and then have a five draw people in and then ha a five-minute god slot at the end, which people kind of you know grimace through. But uh Jesus on the front foot of proclamation does that and then absolutely serves all the needs. So I I think I think what I'm wanting to argue for is not let's do some social action with with a few gods thrown in, but let's move into needy areas proclaiming the gospel, and let's resolve to serve all those who come. Two Corinthians four verse five. We preach Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. So on the on the front foot of gospel proclamation, we think, yeah, I I will serve the needs of of all those who are in any way coming under the sound of this gospel. Let's do it that way around. And you look back into history and and you and you see people like William Booth, who again didn't didn't start the orphanages and the poor houses and and that and that kind of thing as the front edge of his evangelistic ministry. He he he really just preached the gospel and then the social needs became apparent and he served those in that Galatians six kind of way um as it came up. Or David Wilkerson, you know, he goes into um Brookl is it Brooklyn? And anyway, one of the boroughs in New York and he doesn't start a whole bunch of teen challenge drug rehab centres and then try and preach Jesus. He preaches Jesus. But if you preach Jesus into that gangland culture, you're gonna have to deal with the with the rehab. And so you're gonna have to s you know start up because those who come under the sound of the gospel need to be served in that way. And in that way, it's fruit o of the gospel ministry, but the real root is gospel preaching. I just I just wanna, you know, really make a plea for can we get out there and preach the gospel? If you really if you really love social action and helping the poor, the one thing that's actually gonna give the poor hope and and and a sense of being set on their feet and and not just ministered to from a great height, but actually given dignity and raised up to be brothers and sisters alongside us, and now because you're family, I'm gonna I'm gonna help you. Not the helping hand from on high, but okay, I'm a sinner, you're a sinner, we need Jesus. And if you trust this message, you are my brother, and now I will serve as as your brother and make sure that as family we are sorted out. Not that, you know, I I from a great height am reaching down beneficently and you know giving giving you all this stuff. So let's be preaching the gospel, can we? That's that's it. That's all I gotta say. Let's just be preaching the gospel. Um and to serve those who come under the sound of the gospel, but let's let's make first things first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, well we're we've come pretty much to the end of this um rant. This series I was gonna say. Series, yeah, no, series, that's right. On the social action. Yeah. Um any sort of overarching thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I think I think I've said it. I think I've said it. Yeah, I I am all for serving practical needs because I serve my own practical needs in every possible way.
SPEAKER_00Um keep in mind that it's it's the flow. It's the flow.
SPEAKER_01As as Andy Brinkley's always saying, it's not a balance, it's a flow.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well we best leave it there then. If you want to go and find out the links for this episode or that want to share it, or maybe you've got a comment that you'd like to make, you can do that simply on um speaklife.org.uk slash tep ninety nine.
SPEAKER_01Ninety nine. What are we gonna do next episode? Wait and see.
SPEAKER_00Balloons. We'll find out. All right then. See you then. See you later. Bye.