Today on the Evangelist Podcast we're discussing faith as a force for good.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scribble.
SPEAKER_01Studio audience love that bit. Hello, welcome everybody in the studio to uh dear to Andy's Head.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Andy's Head, everyone. Or are they all there all the time, Andy? Jostling for position and laughing at your jokes.
SPEAKER_01Is it all real?
SPEAKER_02I'm real, Andy. I'm real. Welcome to our therapy session, our weekly therapy session called the Evangelist Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Therapy for us or uh Yes.
SPEAKER_02Certainly not for the listeners, no.
SPEAKER_01So faith is a force for good. Yes. What are we going to talk about? How is faith a force for good?
SPEAKER_02We are going to talk about the Cinnamon Faith Action Audit, which is out this week, talking about uh the three billion pounds of uh help that uh faith communities offer to the UK every year. And that's probably a quite a conservative estimate. And so they've they've sort of crunched some numbers, we've done some uh surveying of the whole country, and uh they've come up with uh a little uh report um that talks about uh faith communities and how much of a of a good impact they have on society. So we're gonna think about that report itself and think about the meaning of it.
SPEAKER_01How it relates to evangelism, etc.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01We were also um Speaking of Public Speaking of Publications, we have our brand new Speak Life Daily.
SPEAKER_02Ooh. It's shiny, you'll like it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, magazine, it's our updated International Daily Prayer Bulletin. Um but this is I mean you've you've never seen anything like it. No. It's just one of its kind that you need to um to send off for a copy, don't you?
SPEAKER_02That's your best effort at explaining it. You've never seen anything like it, so it's not even worth me telling you. Well, it's a quarterly magazine uh that gives you daily entries, and the entries are sort of uh categorized in three different ways. You've got uh good news stories about how the gospel is breaking forth and bearing fruit all over the world. Uh there's also some uh daily um devotional thoughts from the Bible, uh and then there's also ways that you can pray for us here as a charity and uh the evangelistic work that we do here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I mean it but basically the the bulletin that we produced, have been producing for years was was just thirty days over two months. Yes. And we've expanded it so that now it covers um it's a quarterly, but it covers ninety-two even. Yes. Because both July and August have thirty-one days. Um so uh really encourage everyone to to sign off sign up for it.
SPEAKER_02How much would you expect to pay for such uh a glossy document? Andy? Ooh.
SPEAKER_01A hundred pounds. One hundred English pounds. Um it's it's probably you know, you know, a couple of quid magazine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And yet offered to you for low low price of gratitude. Free. Yes. So yeah. Sign up. Do sign up for it. And it would be a great way of you getting to pray for our ministry here as well as be inspired about what God's doing around the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And find out what Glenn's doing, because nobody else knows. Including you.
SPEAKER_02That's true. I've got to look in it to figure out what my diary is.
SPEAKER_01Good. Okay, well uh How are they gonna f send off for this? They are going to go to the uh web address of this episode, which is speaklife.org.uk slash tep 96. 96? No way. Awesome. So um, yeah, I'll we'll give all the links at the end as well.
SPEAKER_02And you said speaklife.org.uk, that's a new kind of website. Yes.
SPEAKER_01You are right. Yeah, so basically we're we're sort of moving from uh revivalmedia.org to speaklife.org.uk and uh just generally the whole branding of the organization is gonna move to speaklife. Still officially the Arab Revival Evangelistic Association. Yes, which still has a ring of authority to it. But uh it has a a brand and a face which people will recognise perhaps a bit more easily.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So go to speaklife.org.uk slash TEP96.
SPEAKER_01You got it. So Glenn, last night you went to the Cinnamon Faith Action Audit Launch Presentation.
SPEAKER_02Presentation. Yes. And I was as close as you are to me to Justin Welby. Really? The very Archbishop of Canterbury.
SPEAKER_01The ABC.
SPEAKER_02The ABC, who I called the JW on Twitter and got into a lot of trouble. Um when he first became Archbishop of Canterbury. I said, Is anyone worried that the new Archbishop of Canterbury is a JW? And I got loads of people saying, You can't say that, what's your evidence? Where's your proof you can't make accusations? Like, no, I just mean the oh never mind. Justin Welby. Justin Welby, JW Anyway. So um, yeah. I was uh I was very close to JW, but I didn't I didn't say hello. Um maybe another time. And he didn't say hello to me, so you know. Uh I feel a little snubbed. Um he w he was just a bit too over on my place. Yeah. That's it. And uh yeah, he gave a a great little opening address to this launch of the Faith Action Audit. And and he sort of said in his uh in his launch um that uh a few years ago they did some polling of um 18 to 24 year olds, and they asked 18 to 24 year olds, do you think religion is uh a cause of more good than evil? Or neutral or more evil than good? And among eighteen to twenty-four year olds, uh forty-one per cent said that religion is uh more a cause of evil than it is of good, and only fourteen percent saw uh thought that it was a cause for good more than it was of evil. Um and he said, you know, that's the perception problem. Here's what the faith action audit does. It um, you know, surveys all these different uh faith communities and says, well, no, actually here is all that we're doing for society. Um and here's the empirical evidence for the claim that actually faith is good for the world. Um so he gave that sort of opening address and and then we were sort of presented with some of the uh of the figures and um yeah, and it makes for very interesting reading.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it says uh in the result, the executive summary in their booklet, it says uh sixteen thousand and sixty-eight total number of projects, a hundred and thirty-nine thousand six hundred total number of volunteers. I mean that that that's an awful lot, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02And that's only of the the two thousand odd faith groups that actually responded. Right. So yeah, you extrapolate that out to the whole nation and and you've got something like two hundred and twenty thousand social action projects every year in the community.
SPEAKER_01If the church wasn't doing this and it was just down to the the local government to organise and budget and everything, it would be almost impossible. It would cost billions and billions and billions. I mean, it it says here from the just over two thousand number of people that responded, the total financial value that those two thousand groups bring to the economy is two hundred and thirty-four million. Now, I mean if everybody did respond, who was involved in some kind of project, yeah. You know, if they sort of work that out and extrapolate it up, it could be as much as three billion a year. Yeah. And that's just work in the economy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that's just in terms of if you were to remunerate all the volunteers and just take into account all the staff that are being paid. So it's that's just in terms of the people. So I think, yeah, I think those projects are worth um a lot more than three billion. And yet, you know, so which is is not not nothing, is it? Um and you know, when you think 220,000 social action projects in the in the country, these these are things like um food banks, um, which obviously, you know, in the news a lot around uh election time, um, which is interesting because you know uh over election time, you know, politicians were asked, isn't it dreadful that uh food banks are in existence? And and in one sense, every every food bank you know says, no, we we want to do ourselves out of a job. We wish that we didn't have to um provide this service, we wish that people had enough to eat, but they don't. But why do we think that it's it's the government that ought to solve all those problems? And when the church steps up to the plate, there's something wrong about that. Actually, I think with if we've got Bible goggles on and we look at the world, we actually think, well, of course the church steps up to that. Of ch of course they do. And yes, the government should do what you know what they ought to do, but it's um it's a wonderful thing when the people of Jesus step up and act like Jesus. And and so, yeah, these social actual action projects are like food banks, they are like um uh street pastors, they're like cap money courses, they are like mums and toddler groups, they are um all sorts of activities. Uh this is not churches running um, you know, PCC meetings, parish council meetings, and and choir practice. This is stuff that is for the community, for the poor, for the marginalized. Um and you know, the estimates are that um there are almost 48 million beneficiaries every year from this happening. Um now some people will count more than once in that figure, in that forty forty-eight million figure. But that's a lot of help being given. Um so and and you s at that point you just want to say to all the respondents to that survey back in 2011, you know, do you think the church is a or or religion is a cause for evil or for good? If 41% of them say no, it's it's it's a cause for evil, you just want to say, well, have you have you seen the statistics? Have you seen the figures? Um I think it it's it's a powerful witness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I mean, how does that relate particularly to to well let's take Eastbourne? Yeah. The local thing. Yeah. Um because there was an an audit, wasn't there, in in 2009?
SPEAKER_02We did we did one that was um quite a lot more thorough. We had a bit more time to do it, and um we managed to get uh a lot more responses from people in 2009 and and um uh discovered that just here in Eastbourne, Eastbourne's less than 100,000 people. Um there's about 70 congregations, um, averaging about 125 people in each. Um so you know, a a a town here on the south coast of England, little old Eastbourne, and yet um every week we run 372 midweek activities that are for the community. And again, this is not choir practice, this is not, you know, elders' meetings, this this is for the community, um, which involve 200 uh 2,200 volunteer hours every week. Um and that's just that's just from the churches. In addition to that, just in little old Eastbourne, back in 2009, we had 26 specialist agencies serving the poor in Eastbourne. Now we've got over 40, which is interesting. Um so this is like this is just a a little seaside town on the south coast of England and and 372 midweek activities every week for the community. And again, if the council tried to do it, they'd they'd bankrupt themselves. And I'm I'm bringing out these kinds of statistics quite a bit in evangelism because the question comes up quite regularly, you know, isn't e isn't religion just the cause for for evil and war and all that kind of stuff. And people are just blind to the fact that that charity is an overwhelmingly Christian thing. I mean, just the very idea of charity just comes straight out of the Bible. That that overflowing with good deeds towards your neighbour just doesn't really happen in any other religion, for instance. Um certainly, you know, you you are called um within the five pillars of Islam, um, to give money and to give alms to the poor. That certainly happens, but interestingly, it's it's part of the five pillars, and part of your vertical vertical relationship with Allah is to tick off that box. Whereas in the New Testament it's such a a different thing, isn't it? It's um you know, the Lord Jesus, though he was rich, yet he became poor for your sake, so that you through his poverty might become rich. And the Apostle Paul says that in 2 Corinthians eight, in order to inspire this overflow out to the world. We've we've got a God who has just been charitable to us. Um He hasn't given us what we deserve. We are the undeserving poor and Jesus has spent himself for we the undeserving poor. And now so we've got a very different view of the world. We we don't think that we've been rewarded by God for goodness and and paid a wage. If we thought that, then we wouldn't really have much of a place for charity in our hearts, would we? If God has just paid us a wage, then obviously the way that we should handle other people is that we can pay them a wage if they're worth it, if they work. But why should we why should we lavish poor people with money that they don't deserve? Um charity is uh a very Christian idea. Philanthropy is an incredibly Christian idea. And so when you see this kind of stuff happening, you you are seeing one of the fruits of the gospel. And I think it's important to point to it.
SPEAKER_01Well I mean it's doesn't it say in Corinthians well the translation says faith, hope, and charity. Yeah. Instead of love, and it says the greatest of these is charity. Yeah, yeah. So 1 Corinthians 13, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is it the King James that does it maintains it as charity, which some people didn't like because it it turned love into perhaps a more um uh a religious notion or more sort of institutionalized notion of charity.
SPEAKER_01But it but uh yeah, but I but I think But it and the fact that it's actually come through, you know, to translate you know, when you think of charity you think, oh this is this is an organization of love. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than a charitable organization.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And the proliferation of charities and and that kind of thing, it's it's a deeply Christian thing. And you know, I think the culture needs to be reminded of that, and I think the Faith Action Audit does that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I have to be honest and say that when I'm presented with loads of figures, yeah. Gets a bit blurred and I've kind of you know, or some some really obscure facts that you can't really quite get your head around and and all the facts merge into it. Um the idea that perhaps this is just we're kind of boasting. Huh, this is this is all what the that we're doing. Yeah. You know. I mean, how d how do you sort of feel about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, I I and and it could be, and it could come across in that way. And especially if it's allied to a kind of power grab. You know, here we are, the Christian community, we all we are worth this amount to the economy, we want to get paid. You know, we are worth this amount to the economy, therefore we we want some kind of compensation in power. Or if that is the intention behind, I don't think it is at all. But if that if that is the way that any of us kind of use these figures, then I think that would be an appropriate. You know, it's it's hard to know what you know, King David when he counted his armies. Yeah. And that was a great sin. It's hard to quite figure out what the precise sin going on there. Yeah. But we might be in that kind of territory, mightn't we? Yeah. If if what we're doing is uh trying to establish our power not by pointing to our King Jesus, but by pointing to our own deeds and our own influence in society and that and that kind of thing. Um and certainly, you know, in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2, Paul is very keen not to boast in the way that the that the world boasts. In fact, both both letters to the Corinthians are massively a rejection of the kind of boasting culture that the Corinthians were into. And we s we certainly want to do that. Um, you know, God forbid that we boast in anything but the the cross of Christ. So if if it's anything uh uh to do with a boast for the church, then I think that's inappropriate. But didn't Jesus say in John 13, verse thirty f 34 and 35, by this all people will know that you are my disciples if you love one another. By this people know there is a demonstration. Love demonstrates something. Um and it demonstrates who Jesus is. So is there a self-effacing way of of saying yes this is a place where there is love? Not so much to big ourselves up, but to s but to say to the world, and this love is for you if you if you want it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean there is that whole aspect of we using up resources that you know for this charitable work, which could be used for you know, preaching, and uh, you know, we could get more preachers and we could do more um things. So how does this kind of relate to evangelism and how can we think about these as evangelists?
SPEAKER_02Massive question. And I think it's it's so massive, I think we should probably do a series on it. Or else we could be here all day. So yeah, I think I think we'll try and answer that question over over a few different episodes. How how does social action and evangelism interact with one another? How do we how do we consider the two? Um because it is it is true that I I don't think we would have assembled the same buzz, the same numbers, the same dignitaries as we did last night if it was let's evangelize the UK again. Unfortunately, I d I I don't think I it was it was uh a a wonderful evening and there was a lot of goodwill and a lot of enthusiasm um but I haven't seen that same level of enthusiasm for uh on a proclamation footing, let's reach let's reach the nation. And and it's j it's true financially as well, that you know, giving to charities I won't name names, but the you know, there are charities that people give to to to the tune of millions and millions and millions of pounds um every year. And and there are s there are several social action charities in this country that themselves receive far more than every evangelistic charity in the country combined receive. And that's interesting. So there's there's all sorts of questions to be raised about yes, the fruit of the gospel is lives transformed. And sometimes you can point to that fruit and say, Well, that's interesting. Do you want to check out the root that produces such fruit? And you can say to people, you know, it's it's this gospel of Jesus that actually produces this transformed life. And to that degree that's that's wonderful and brilliant. But what's interesting is that it can be far easier to look to the fruits and to lose the root. Yeah. It's far easier to go to Africa and take photographs of need and come back and raise money than it is to go to Tunbridge Wells or Sevenoaks and take pictures of spiritual need. Because to be honest, the pictures of spiritual need in Sevenoaks look pretty darn nice. There are there are mansions there, there are people who are still without hope and without God in the world, who need the gospel more desperately than the African child needs the well to be dug. And yet, what is it that motivates us? And quite rightly, seeing a picture of need, of physical need, does motivate us, but how much more should the eyes of our heart and and the eyes of faith see spiritual need and see a great need for evangelism and and to go out? And certainly no one no one to do with the Cinnamon Faith Action Audits is trying to get rid of evangelism or any of it or downplay any of that. But it is it is worth stepping back and and thinking where are our priorities and how do we coordinate the gospel itself, which is Christ given for sinners, raised again for our justification? How do we coordinate that proclaimed message with the fruit of that proclaimed message, which is love of the poor and overflowing charity to to the to the nation and and all of that kind of stuff. How do we coordinate those two things? It's a big question, and I don't I don't think the answer I think we need to be clear about the answer because I think a lot of people can speak in muddy ways that end up losing the gospel.
SPEAKER_01So we've got to kind of be clear in what we're not doing social action instead of the gospel. No. And we're not doing the gospel despite social action.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01But we're working them together in some way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and but and then the question becomes in what way? And I think the way is to keep the analogy going, root and fruits. The the way is it is the gospel itself that transforms people and transforms communities, and then enables those communities to overflow in love and charity for the nation and transforms societies in that way. Um but I I I think the mission of the church is proclaiming Christ.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, maybe this is something we can uh go into a bit more next time and uh Absolutely We'll look a little uh deeper perhaps at the more spiritual side of dovetailing.
SPEAKER_02The the dovetail. How how does the dovetail together? And and yes, like two wings of a dove, as John Stutt would say. Uh we'll have we'll have a look at kind of the history of how evangelicalism and activism have always gone together. Yeah but then the history of of how evangelism actually overflows into generosity and and goodness and and and how that might be the the the the most fruitful way of of uh thinking about the the the interaction.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well we'll leave it there then for this week. If you'd like to make a comment about the uh show, you can go to speaklife.org.uk slash tep ninety-six. On there we'll also have the links to get this brand new Speak Life Daily 44 page booklet. It's a DL size, um fits easily inside a Bible, and it gives you information, background information on the work here at Revival as well as what God is doing around the world. So do pick up a copy of that. Okay, I think that's it. See you next time. See you later.