On this edition of the Evangelist Podcast, we're talking about the power of church. The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you with Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. We're uh currently doing a series in power evangelism, and this time we're we're looking at the power of church. What do you mean, Glenn?
SPEAKER_02I mean so often in evangelism, church is the bit we're embarrassed about. And uh almost the first thing that evangelists sort of teach is that you know Christians are really uh daggy. Does that word translate? Um you haven't watched Enough Neighbours. Daggy. Uh naf? Does that work? Yeah, yeah. Church church is just square, nerdy. It's nerdy. Um yeah, you know, it's it's full of you know elderly people and you know, a man at the front dressed like grandma, you know, in a in a white nighty, you know, people singing hymns and um and we're embarrassed by church, and so what evangelists are are these brave people who go out and say, Hey, forget all that, you know. Um come to Jesus anyway. Um and and so often we sideline church in our evangelism. But I I want to make a little plea here that uh our evangelism should be really church saturated, and our churches should be evangelistic, but but our evangelism should be proud of church.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good. Um just as we want to mention uh about the 321 course that we're filming for anyone who doesn't know about three two one what listeners for the first time. Where have you been? 321 is an evangelistic gospel outline looking at the Trinity in the nature of three. Yes. Um come on, Andy. Come on, come on, what's two? I feel like I'm at school gig and two about two representatives, one being Adam, one being Christ. Very good, and then one being Are You One with Christ?
SPEAKER_02So There you go.
SPEAKER_00Uh and the course is like an evangelistic course that anybody um should be able to go to uh a website or go through an email series or something to follow this course a bit like maybe an alpha course or a Christianity explored and uh follow through.
SPEAKER_02With the unique selling points that you can do in three weeks, um which yeah, which is quite a bonus.
SPEAKER_00So that's uh we've we've got sort of a go ahead to to go and go a bit bigger.
SPEAKER_02Yes, go Hollywood. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So uh look out for that. It's coming soon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What else we've got coming?
SPEAKER_02We've got Valentine's Day, of course. You you remember Andy? Valentine's Day. You're you're planning your your romantic evening already. Um so part of uh part of uh our attempt here to uh to create a video for every single date in the calendar. Um we've got we've got we've got Christmas done. Christmas is covered, I think. We've got Halloween, got Easter, uh Remembrance Day, and so here we here we go with Valentine's Day. I I'd I'd love to do talk like a pirate day, I'd love to do crufts. Um Yeah. There's plenty to be said. Plenty to be said. Um so yeah, so Valentine's Day video is coming out, and we're also um working on uh an Easter video. So yeah, no, I'm really looking forward to that. Alex Webb Pepplo is a brilliant illustrator uh who's um written a couple of um uh graphic novels uh illustrating uh the Christmas story and the Easter story, and uh he's he's doing the illustration for this uh animated video. And uh I yeah, it's it's the one it's the one video I'm most excited about ever.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um even though you've not seen very much of it.
SPEAKER_02No, but just I no, I I I won't I won't spoil it. I won't spoil it. It's it's gonna be epic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, watch this space.
SPEAKER_02Watch this space.
SPEAKER_00Good. Okay, well, this time uh last time we looked at uh the power of ordinary Christian living and we we talked about sort of being human in our evangelism and uh not trying to spiritualise but trying to humanize our conversations, yeah. Um and being being real, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we're looking at the power of church. Um church in this context being sort of the traditional stereotype of a building and going to you know, Sunday morning and uh that kind of thing. Um it can be such a a strange world for people. Yes. And people think maybe that evangelism is sort of like a halfway house or a buffer between church and the world.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Would you would you agree? Yeah, I you know, whenever you talk about church, you've always got to say when you say church, you don't just mean the building, and yeah, uh indeed, you don't just mean the building, but I think you do particularly mean the Lord's people gathered together.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um and you know, you might want us even say on the Lord's Day. Um but let's not go down that road. But you but you you are thinking of the Lord's people, particularly the Lord's people gathered together around the Word, um, around the Lord's table, perhaps, um, those people in that place worshiping God. So that, you know, in in 1 Corinthians 14, uh Paul talks about, you know, the body coming together uh with orderly worship, and if there's you know tongues they're being interpreted so that everybody understands what's going on, and then the the whole the whole point of that uh is that uh one Corinthians fourteen verse twenty-five is uh or let's go from verse twenty-four. If an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare, so he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, God is really among you. Which is phenomenal. And and I think it it kind of it it treads this uh balance between uh a a a church that is just uh full of sort of ecstatic worship that the outsider would never understand, or a church that's just so lowest common denominator that anyone who came into the church would go, oh that's interesting, I I understand it. Paul's saying, make sure that your worship is understandable by the outsider, but not that it is sort of dismissible and just the lowest common denominator thing. He wants people to come in and understand what's going on and to be convicted that they're a sinner and to say that God is really among you. So Paul pictures church being incredibly powerful. But the power of church looks very weak. He started off 1 Corinthians in chapter 1 talking about the Corinthians, and he says in verse uh twenty-six of chapter 1, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were influential, not many were of noble birth, but God chose you guys the foolish things of the world to shame the shame the wise. It's yeah, i it's it's not very flattering, is it? You know, what what do you guys like? Well, God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things and the things that are not, and he's just describing them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02These Corinthians who lived in this cosmopolitan city full of sort of Greek wisdom and and you know, that church that had you know, Jewish people had a proud history of miraculous power encounters happening. And and Paul just says, but that's not you guys, is it? You're just lowly, you're despised. Um but he uses all these things to nullify the things that are verse 28, so that no one may boast before him. This is the context in which people are encountering the living God, and uh it's the message of the cross that uh produces a cross-shaped people and and church is this ordinary, cross-shaped, looks weak, it looks foolish, looks pathetic, and yet the power of God is available there. So I I think so often we kind of despise church and we think that evangelism is about kind of apologizing for church and covering up for church and and that evangelism is about de-churchifying things as much as possible so that we can get the gospel out there. But actually what we're calling people to is church and the way that we're calling people to it should be through church. So I'm I'm just making a plea that we that we be proud of church in our evangelism.
SPEAKER_00And what about the problem of hypocrisy in the church? I mean it's it's not a great advertisement for Christianity.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, and and and it comes up again and again in evangelism. Um non-Christians do say, you know, I can I was in Starbucks uh one week ago, uh talking with a woman, just instantly, as soon as as soon as she heard, as soon as she heard that I was a minister, as soon as she heard that, she said, Oh yes, of course I could never be religious because of all the wars. Oh all the wars that religions rel religions cause. Just an absolute knee-jerk, you know, reaction. And you know, and and I just I said, you know, j yes, yes, how many wars religion has caused in the in the history of all armed conflicts. And and I think her her guess was something like seventy percent or something. And uh I I think she she realized that that maybe it wasn't as high as she thought it was. So I think she brought it down to 70%. Right. And I said, actually it's seven per cent. You know. And most of that is not Christianity, by the way. Um but so but that was interesting. So so just instantly she's just accessing that in her head that that you know, Christians don't live up to what they're meant to, and they cause wars, and uh and if it's not that sort of broad brushstroke thing about, you know, Christians are always warring or, you know, going on crusades and things, it's it's the specific thing of I was treated really badly when they heard that I was divorced, you know, s so-and-so shunned me and they call themselves a Christian. And there there is all of that that actually that happens uh in evangelism, and but I I think you've got to you've got to address that kinda head on. And you know, Tim Keller talks about you know the b the the best when hypocrisy comes up, um, he he just goes for a draw. He doesn't go to try and win that argument. Right. But he j he just sort of says, you know, think of Martin Luther King and this Martin Luther King day just uh just the other day, um when he was assassinated. And and he said, you know, when Martin Luther King did such amazing things, you know, in in America, was it because he sidelin his Christian beliefs and and s decided to be less Christian because there was this slavery thing in the past and Christians had completely blown it with that slavery thing? Did Martin Luther King then think to himself, okay, I need to ditch, I need to become less Christian in order to handle the problems that that these Christians have have been involved with. No, he becomes more Christian. Um he goes deeper into the scriptures and and and and you know and so you you talk about church as a huge force for good in the world, even though yes, church has been a force for for for evil in the world. Um but I I think you can do better than than going for a draw, actually. Um I I I think actually the force for good of Christians in the world so outweighs actually the um you know, you when people bring up crusades you can contextualize it and sort of say, you know, imagine imagine somebody like ISIS taking over a massive city. What do you do? Do you send troops in? And if you're in the Middle Ages, what does a ground war look like? Looks pretty ugly, doesn't it? But what you know you can you know, and and this is this is not to s not to sort of apologize for war in Jesus' name, because there can be no such thing as war in Jesus' name. But you can talk about geopolitical realities in the past and say, well, actually, you know, the the Crusades isn't isn't this uh cut and dried case that's that just means, you know, a complete loss for Christians. Um also things you know, the the Spanish Inquisition, when you when you look into the numbers involved in the Spanish Inquisition, it's horrendous, horrible, absolutely grotesque. Um and and yet um it's it it does not represent Christendom at large at all. It represents you know madness in Spain, um in you know in those years. So y you put those in context and then you just you you talk about this sociological phenomenon called church that has just gripped the globe. And you know, why are w you know in this country people were drinking the blood of their ancestors before Christians came, and the civilizing kind of effects of Christianity on the West um is absolutely astonishing, really. And just even at the local level, you know, you you talk about Little Eastbourne where we are, you know, a hundred thousand people, about sixty churches, and the the phenomenal number, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of activities that churches put on for the community every week. Um the these this is not you know choir practice and parish council meetings. This is this is soup kitchens and and night shelters and debt counselling and and stuff that is for the community. Hundreds and hundreds, thousands and thousands and thousands of volunteer hours every week given by church for free to the community. Is it a force for good? I th I think undeniably it is. So I I would I would push yes, we need to own the hypocrisy um uh charge and and address it head on, and perhaps people people can look back at uh at former episodes of the Evangelist Podcast, how how you handle that hypocrisy thing. But the thing to do when the hypocrisy question comes up is not to then say, Oh yes, that's church. I want to talk to you about Jesus, something really different. I do in evangelism often say, Yeah, you know, church has done terrible things, but you can't say those things about Jesus, can you? And it's true, and and that's that's right to do, but we don't want to divorce Jesus from church so much because we're inviting people not just to Christ but to his body as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, because the church obviously is his body. Yeah. When I think of hip hypocrisy, you know, sometimes I want to say, you're right, and that's the very nature of Christianity, is that we're all sinners.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, we're all hypocrites if you like. We we're following Jesus, but we're completely sinners, you know. We Yeah We've all done terrible things that hypocrites for, you know. We'll say that's wrong to do that. Yeah. And yet we've done it in the past as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And we actually raise our hands to it and say, Yeah, there is hypocrisy to us, and and how terrible that you ha you would have to walk around life with a you know, trying to maintain a no hypocrisy mask. As though I've never been a hypocrite. No, I've never been a hypocrite. Well, that's a you are a hypocrite. Yeah. If you if you think you've never been a hypocrite, you are wearing a mask. Um it's it's the Christians who admit, yes, there's hypocrisy. So, you know, let's invite people into a place in which you can just let the mask drop and say, My name's Glenn, and I'm a hypocrite. And you know.
SPEAKER_00So, I mean, are you saying that we just kind of open the doors of the church? We just let everyone in and they'll just come.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. If we open up church, they will come. Um good spots. Yeah. Um it's interesting the way that the Lord does do that often. You know, I I speaking with speaking with um a a a church that has a very proud tradition of kind of house church it's it's kind of began as a house church kind of movement, um, but it has developed over the years to the point where it's well it's got a building, and they meet it on a Sunday, and they open up the doors, and people do just come because there's a church service and there's a sign up and and the Lord just draws people. And it's very interesting, you know, they they're very much into we need to get out into the community. But they're also very grateful that the Lord does just send people when they do open up the doors on a on a Sunday. But I'm not I'm not saying that that's that's you know the sum total of your evangelistic strategy put on church and people will come. I'll talk a little bit about what what a church-loving uh evangelistic strategy will look like at the end. But uh but I I I think it is about Well let me let me say, I th I think it I think it's the it's it it's at least these four things. I think it's when you're talking to your friends, talk up church. This is huge in evangelism. Absolutely huge. My um my wife's family who are um not Christians, we took them along to church uh the other Sunday, and they they came along and they heard the sermon and amazing, the power, you know. They didn't they didn't do the 1 Corinthians 14 thing and you know, confess God is really among you and and that kind of thing, but how amazing that they did that. But then, incredibly, as as we came home from church, there was something left on the the the doorstep, and it was a um a travel cart. And it was just anonymously left by another family in the church here have our travel cot and and um and Emma's family were just blown away by this. And actually, as they've seen that our church has, you know, been providing hot meals for us, you know, in the in the early um early couple of weeks of of uh Emma having given birth and and you know they go into our nursery and they see so-and-so gave us this, and you know, we've got this car seat, and we've got you know, these different things from different people, they're absolutely blown away by the love of the community of God's people. And and I just think in evangelism talk up church a lot because it it really uh we we've we're in this antenatal class, um, and now I guess we're postnatal, but um uh even so meeting up with other couples, none of the other couples are Christians. Um most of them have family that are far away. And whenever you talk to them about, you know, the the the challenges of of raising young children, they're kind of like, well, it's just me and my partner and the baby, and we've just got to be our own little units and hunker down and you know, we are it. And of course every time Emma and I talk about child rearing, we're just like, Well, you know, like we're in a church in which there's like nearly sixty under-elevens, and there's all sorts of people who've gone before us who have wisdom, who have hand-me-downs, who have love for us, and it's so remarkable to them. And and we are so different, not because of any kind of I I I don't think I've articulated any of the the points of doctrine of the Apostles' Creed in any of our classes, but we are marked out primarily because everyone knows that we're in a community of love. Everyone knows that we're in a community we're we're taken care of. Um hugely, hugely evangelistically powerful. And so I I just talk up church every every chance I get. So I think the first thing we need to do is is talk up church in all our evangelism, and just sort of say, you know, that's what I love about my church. Um it's not like this or that or the other, it's like this. Let's talk about talk talk about church. I think another another thing we we do is that let's go out together. Um so often we think of, okay, church on a Sunday is the gathering of the saints, and then we individually leave church to be our own Lone Ranger evangelists and we go on our solo mission to convert the heathen. What if we considered Monday to Saturday um church scattered, church going out, so that I don't just join the squash club by myself, or or I don't just start a book club, you know, with and I'm the only Christian. I'd don't don't just have a book club by yourself. That's not a book club. That's just reading. Um But like if you start a book club, don't just start it with you as the only Christian, start it with two other Christians. And then what people get to see is not just you being a Christian, but they get to see you interacting. By this all people will know that you're my disciples if you have love one for another, which you never get if you're the only Christian in the cricket team, or if you're you're if you're the only Christian in in Rotary, um you know, it needs to needs to be en masse. So as church, go out together. So that's that's the I think first thing talk up church. Second thing, go out into the world together as church. I think that thirdly, um, I think we need to in holding together evangelism and church, we need to make evangelism churchy and we need to make church evangelistic. Um and so, yeah, churches need to be places where, in one Corinthians fourteen terms, there is a holiness and a reverence for God, and stuff that non Christians just won't get. But there'll also be an interpretation, and there'll also be a a level of understanding so that they get enough to be able to say God is really among us. So what you want is a gospel content on on a Sunday morning, um that That will communicate to the outsider. I think you do need to have an eye on the outsider in that 1 Corinthians 14 sense. Not so that you make it a sort of a lowest common denominator seeker service and strip anything kind of meaty out of your service. Not at all. Paul says you you want people to be falling down saying God is really among you. But you do need church to be evangelistic and you do need therefore to preach the gospel every Sunday. Um that would be that would be wonderful whether you're thinking about evangelism or not, but can we please have sermons that preach the actual gospel of Jesus every Sunday so that there's something for the non-Christian there to hear. But all also so that the Christian hears the gospel every Sunday and is fed and able to go out into the world and has something to say to their non-Christian friends. So number one, talk up church. Number two, go out together as church. Number three, make church evangelistic. And and I think fourthly, just invite people to church. Like do do that. We're so nervous about that. And and we we want to bring church in as a last resort. You know, we we we design whole evangelistic strategies that wait until somebody's, you know, been disciple for twelve weeks before we even invite them to church which is really strange, I think, when you just look at you know how the Bible does it. Um church should be front and center in our evangelism. And we might be embarrassed by it, um, but if you think that you are cooler or wiser or more attractive than Christ's body, you've got you've got real self-importance issues going on. If you as an evangelist think, ooh, church is a bit naff, I'm gonna go out and I will be more attractive to my non-Christian friend than I mean I uh as as an evangelist, I am just so grateful that even though I'm a total jerk, at least I can say to people, my church isn't.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_02So as we go to our antenatal classes and we and we meet these six other couples who aren't Christians, yeah, they might think I'm a jerk, but as I talk up church, that's the attractive thing. So often, so often evangelists think exactly the other way around. They they would never say it out loud, but they would they basically think, yeah, church is a little bit we'll keep that off to one side. I'll try and do all the work of drawing people to Christ, and then we'll we'll have to corral them into church at some point, unfortunately. And they think they are more attractive than Christ's body. Nuh-uh. No, no. So I I so let's let's stop being ashamed of church. We're always gonna be tempted to, we're we're gonna be tempted to just like the Corinthians because they think they're so wise and noble. And Paul says, No, you're you're a bunch of nobodies, but but that's where the power is.
SPEAKER_00And I think sometimes that people are um perhaps more ready to come to church than we are to invite them. Yes. Uh I had a chap that lives nearby me. He he came one time with a with a um sort of an urgent issue regarding his family. And uh he was he was really sort of worked up and I said, Well, let's just pray about it. So I just prayed, you know, the situation and he said, Oh Andy, thanks so much. He said, You know, he said, I must come to your church sometime.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00He said, I'm really frightened of death. He said, I've got to get that sorted out. Yeah. And I didn't even invite him, yeah. It's just I'm going one day.
SPEAKER_02I wish I prepared the st uh there are statistics that you know, there's a um uh a book by Tom Rayner written in the States, which people can sort of look up. We can put it on the show notes sort of afterwards, but um perhaps on the show notes we can put what the what the true statistics are. But a phenomenal number of people this is this is in America, um, but a phenomenal number of people would come to church if if invited. And you know, it's it's just such a missed opportunity when we don't I I think of you know, there are there are a couple of fairly popular hashtags on Twitter in in Christian circles. Try Alpha and try prayer. Try church is much less popular. And I I think that might that m might point to part of the problem that the that I'm trying to sort of speak of here, that that we want people to try everything except church and and get people get people to Christ and then oh I guess they've got to come to come along to church later on. I I mean I I I basically think if you get someone sitting in the community of God's people, hearing God's word on the Lord's day, if they're in church for a month, they are a sitting duck. You you you pretty much expect them to become a Christian, don't you? You pretty much Because this is this is where it happens. Let's just let's just finish with um Psalm 14. You know, you think, what's gonna what's gonna reach a culture that's increasingly going towards atheism? And you know, a survey uh recently came out that said that um uh two-thirds of men are either atheist or agnostic. You know, two-thirds of men, you think. Um what are we gonna do to a culture that says that there is no god? Psalm 14. The fool says in his heart, there is no gods. They are corrupt, their deeds are vile. There is no one who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one. So you've just got this scene of like complete unrighteousness in the world. Some people are articulating it as uh as atheism, but the whole world is unrighteous uh before God. Verse four Will evildoers never learn, those who devour my people. Ah, my people. There seem to be there's this group that's sudden somehow been brought out from the world. My people as men eat bread, and who do not call in the Lord. Uh there they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. So in a in a world that says there is no God, where are they going to meet him? God is present in the company of the righteous. You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge. So you've got this these people have been brought out from uh a wicked world, brought to the Lord, who is their refuge. Now they are a company of righteous people, and then verse 7, oh that salvation for Israel will come out of Zion, the Lord's house. When when the Lord restores the fort fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice, and Israel be glad. So you there's this place where you can meet God, where where the Lord is present, and it's in the company of the righteous. And there's a place from which salvation kind of comes and reaches out into the world. And again, it's the household of the Lord. So let's not despise church. Let's look in all ways to put church back at the at the heart of our evangelism.
SPEAKER_00Well, we'd better leave it there for this week. We've been looking at this uh series on power evangelism. We've got the power of preaching next time.
SPEAKER_02That's right. So I'm not I'm not just saying, like when I say the power of ordinary Christian living and the power of church, I'm not just saying that you know you mime the gospel and people somehow get it by osmosis. I totally believe in the power of preaching, and we'll see the power of the word to bring new life.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, look forward to that next week. Thanks very much for listening. If you have any comments about today's show or would like to share it, just go to revivalmedia.org slash tep eighty two and we'll see you next week. See ya.