Today on the Evangelist Podcast we're looking at the power of ordinary Christian living.
SPEAKER_01The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Everybody. To make it out of the office.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Glenn's office where we were trapped in there for two weeks.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Oh yeah, yeah, we were. We were. And then uh Oh yes, and we listened to one of my sermons. Yes. Yeah. Don't you hate listening to your own voice? But uh uh yes, so that was fun. And uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02So we're back. Um we're gonna be looking uh start the new year with a brand new series, looking at the power of ordinary Christian living and then the power of the church. The power of preaching, power of words in season. And they were looking at a n a number of these.
SPEAKER_00Yes, under the title Power Evangelism. So yeah, I don't know. I've just sort of thought what do people think of when they think of power evangelism? And uh, you know, they have certain views in mind, but you know, as as I kind of read 1 Corinthians 1, I see the sort of thing that Paul was thinking about when he was thought thinking about power evangelism. Um, you know, he he he said that Greeks look for wisdom, uh, Jews demand miraculous signs, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. And so he he he talks about this weak and foolish message that we proclaim, and he goes on to talk about how the church that proclaims this message looks weak and foolish in uh 1 Corinthians 1 verse 26. He says, Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were influential, not many were of noble birth. Uh, but God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. God uses weak, foolish looking people uh to do his evangelism. So actually actually, power evangelism looks like what God's power looks like, but what God's power looks like is Jesus dying on the cross, which looks weak and pathetic and foolish and messy. Uh but actually that's where God's Spirit shows up to bring life. So we're gonna we're gonna think about that under under a number of headings and and uh see if we can be power evangelists in the right kind of way.
SPEAKER_02Okay, excellent. So over the next few uh episodes or so we're we're gonna be looking at this uh subject. But in the meantime, since Christmas, we've uh had a couple of New arrivals. New arrivals.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yes. One has been uh a little baby girl, so yay, little Ruby Hannah Scrivener. Uh was born on the 2nd of January. So yes, a little uh wriggling, wrinkly ball of gorgeousness. She's she's great. So she's keeping mum and dad up quite a lot. So yeah, I don't think I've slept in twenty fifteen, but um maybe in twenty sixteen, you never know.
SPEAKER_02It's a it's a long, long road it's been a long road, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00It's been a very long road, and the Lord's been very faithful and kind, and and I think you know, Ruby's been the answer to thousands and thousands of prayers. Um so that's that really humbles you and and uh yeah, it gives you great cause for Thanksgiving when you sort of hold her in your arms and think, you know, hundreds of people have prayed for this little girl, and we have uh hundreds and thousands of times. But um so yeah, no, we're we're just praising God. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, excellent. Uh tell us about the other arrival then.
SPEAKER_00The other arrivals, which uh, you know, who cares really? Uh a book came out. Um uh 321, The Story of God, the World and You. So uh that came out um just before Christmas uh with ten of those. And uh yeah, that's been that's been going out uh to loads of loads of people. So because ten of those are brilliant at at getting stuff out there cheaply in in volume, um you can get a hundred copies of the book for a hundred pounds. Um and in fact, if if you just get five copies of the book, the the price halves from you know £5.99 down to £2.99. And if you get ten books it goes down to what is it, three pounds. If you get £25 books, it goes down to two pounds. So so they're very good at getting these volumes of books out. So I've already had lots of um buy a hundred. Buy a hundred, why not?
SPEAKER_02Sell ninety-nine.
SPEAKER_00And keep one. Yeah, don't forget to read it. Yeah. And hand it on to a friend. So I've had lots of uh messages from people who said um yes, my my church book bought a copy and just sort of gave it to us, which uh makes me kind of feel like U2, because you you know like U2 at the end of last year they sort of released their album onto onto the so it just downloaded itself onto people's iPhones, whether they wanted it or not. So uh yes, we are the the the U2 of uh of publishing in all the wrong ways. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But the the the book basically um its its premise is is imagine that Christianity is like a house, and you go into the house and you have a look around, yeah, and uh you basically go through it and sort of explain Christianity from the inside out.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah. So we don't try and build stepping stones from the non-Christian worldview into the Christian worldview, and we don't throw stones at the non-Christian worldviews, we just open up the doors and say, Come on over. I know you think this is nuts, that's fine. Let's just, you know, let's talk about Jesus, and Jesus is our guide, and he introduces you to God and the world and yourself, and and as Jesus used shows you these things, hopefully there's an internal logic and beauty to the Christian life and the Christian story that that that wins people over. That's the idea.
SPEAKER_02And uh it's also developing into a course.
SPEAKER_00That's right. So um a couple of years ago now, the crowded house up in uh Sheffield uh filmed me doing three talks um uh as an evangelistic course um because I think churches are are finding all over the place that that getting people on to a six, seven-week course or you know I mean Christianity Explored used to be a ten-week course, Alpha used to be a ten-week course, um and just people are not signing up for those um anymore. But we're finding that signing up for a three-week course is a much easier invite, and then on week three you say, Would you like to do something more? And very often people when they get to week three they say, What's next? Um but when you try and hit them with the seven-week thing from the outset, it doesn't really work. So so we've got this three-week course, so we filmed it two two uh years ago up in in Sheffield quite simply, and what we want to do is uh film it again a little more uh uh artistically, a little more nicely, uh, and um and offer that out there as a video course that you can you know run in churches or that's uh accessible online. So um Sam Quan, who's done a lot of our video work uh in the past, is gonna help us out with that and uh hopefully it'll look really, really nice. So we're gonna film that in the next couple of months. Excellent.
SPEAKER_02And uh working on a video for Valentine's Day.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's right. It is, I I know, always working to the deadlines. You know me, Andy. Um when did we get our Christmas one out? No, I don't know. Uh yeah before. About a week before, which is pretty good for us. Um so yes, uh uh yeah, ten of those are helping us produce a uh Valentine's video. Again, Sam Quan doing the the video stuff, and uh Josh Lucas, who does our music, is again working on on that. So hopefully that'll be a a good little a good little three minute meditation on the power of love. And and and is it true? You know, we we kind of hold up the happily ever after of the guy and the girl getting it together, and that's uh you know, and we all resonate with that, but if the grave is the end, then is is that really real? And and you know, how can you really believe in love? And then, you know, you tell a little bit of the of the Christian story that Jesus is the one who loves us, who has betrothed us. Um so that's coming out hopefully in the next week.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So th let's um look at this then the p the power of ordinary Christian living. Um so we're kind of thinking about it's not so much preaching at people as much as kind of getting into their into their situation, into their boat, if you like, and uh and just sharing with them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And life I th I think it's it's both. Obviously, you can't mime the gospel and you need words, uh, but I I think the whole context in which those words come is life shared. You know, the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we've seen his glory, the glory of the one and only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. So when God wants to wanted to preach to us, um it wasn't just a a sermon from on high, but his son becoming one with us, being among us, full of grace and truth, that we see him and beheld behold him.
SPEAKER_02He was the word. He was the word preached, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Enfleshed. Um and I think that's that's really interesting that that actually in order to preach to humans. And what I find in evangelism is is so often when you think of getting into an evangelistic conversation, you often think of I need to spiritualize this conversation. It's you know, it's a mundane thing. It's we're talking about the washing up, but I need to be able to spiritualise it and take it to the next level and and give a Christian gloss to that. Um But I think it's the other way around, that actually what God does in preaching to humans is that he humanizes himself. You know, this the Son of God is humanized to dwell alongside us, and that actually in him sharing in our life, then the word takes root in us. So, I mean, my my motto that I keep using at the at the moment is that you know evangelism is not about spiritualizing the odd conversation, but it's about humanizing all our interactions with other people. Um and and it's just my little plea that the first thing we should think of when we think of evangelism is is not so much sort of spiritualizing the the odd conversation, but humanizing ourselves, drawing alongside others, sharing in their life the way that Christ shared in ours.
SPEAKER_02How does that work out then? I mean, because you know, if you have a friend or whatever and you're you're trying to um share the gospel with them, um surely you've got to sort of communicate. Um words are important.
SPEAKER_00Yes, no, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I've often heard people quote that um phrase, you know, uh preach to every creature and use words if necessary.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I've always been a bit uncomfortable. Oh yeah. You know, faith comes by hearing.
SPEAKER_00Well, exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_02So I'm not yeah. So how do you how do you marry those two up?
SPEAKER_00Well, interestingly, faith comes by hearing in Romans 10, but interestingly, not hearing by a disembodied voice coming from the heavens. Yes. Even though in Romans 10 Paul says actually the heavens are declaring the word of Christ. He says that in in Romans uh 10, is it 17 and 18? Um but faith comes by hearing, hearing who? Sent preachers. How beautiful on the mountain are the feet of those who bring the good news. So there are those who are bringing the good news, who are preachers who we really need to hear the gospel from. And so that's that's really fascinating that that even though words, in a in a sense, are being proclaimed by the heavens, says Psalm 19. Um and and yet what we need are people who go and they're and their feet are are beautiful because their feet are carrying them from far away to close to you in order to be near to you and declare this message to you. So so what I'm what I'm saying is not is not a plea for, you know, let's let's you know get away from words, um, because yeah, I'm I'm a preacher and absolutely believe in the power of words, and and actually, as we go on in in this series, we'll we'll talk about the power of preaching, the power of words. But those words come from you. And they need to come from the you that is alongside your friends. Um and your feet are only beautiful if they've carried you beside your friends, so that you're speaking to them to them as one human being to another human being. So often we think of the words that need to be heard as words that simply come out of the out of the sky. Disembodied. You know, it's interesting, there's there's a guy who came to um talk with me just yesterday about uh evangelism, and he's a really uh he's a really gregarious kind of person. He'll get into conversation with anybody, doesn't, you know, doesn't mind any of that. His children are very embarrassed by, you know, him just you know talking to strangers in the streets and that kind of thing. But that's that's that's kind of how he's wired and that kind of thing. But he was saying what he finds difficult is talking to his long-term atheist friends, talking to his brother, um, talking to family members um in an ongoing sense. And we know we we were both reflecting that that that really is the the kind of the hard thing. But he was saying to me, you know, his his atheist friend Um he he always struggles to know what to say, what the next thing to say is, because he's already had, you know, conversations with him. And once you've you know, once you've dropped in your silver bullets, um that that only works, you know, once. Yeah you can't keep on dropping in silver bullets, a friendship is a more ongoing thing. And so he he was just sort of saying, you know, the other day my friend just went on and on about cross-country skiing and how much he loves cross-country skiing. And I was racking my brain trying to think, how do you get from cross-country skiing to the gospel? And you know, and I think a false way of doing that would be to say, Ah, did you know that in Isaiah chapter one it's it says, you know, though our sins be red like scarlet, he shall make them white as snow. And did you know, dear friends, that's you know, even you know, the the the beauty of a of a Norwegian, you know, snowscape can be matched by the forgiveness of the Lord, you know, that's not gonna work. But that's kind of that's kind of like spiritualizing uh the odd conversation. What would it mean to humanize all our interactions? And I and I suppose I was sort of saying to him, um, well get interested in cross-country skiing, it might bore you to tears, but there's there's gotta be some reason why he's into it. And just keep probing into that. You know, what what do you like about it? Is it is it the solitude, is it the is it just the exercise, is is there a camaraderie between people? What what actually happens? Tell me about it, I I need to know. And actually the the gospel conversation comes as you dig, dig, dig, dig down deep and you humanize yourself, you know, the way that Christ was humanized into our situation.
SPEAKER_02It's not by sort of glossing over the top and you know, just I mean it's what you s what you're saying is actually quite a lot harder than just than just giving someone a tract, you know. Oh yeah, yeah. Uh why why do we miss this truth? Perhaps we're um afraid to actually go the extra mile, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But and and he was saying, look, his mind was just wandering when this guy started talking about cross-country skiing and and like we've all we've all been there. It it it takes a lot to actually commit yourself to another person, but that's what love is, isn't it? That's that's completely what love is. So, you know, like 1 Peter 3 15 is is sort of the this key evangelistic verse, um where where Peter says, In your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect. And and it comes in the in the context of of this letter in which Peter is telling us suffering people to keep on clinging to Christ and keep on loving other people and keep on answering their evil with with good towards them. And you know, the whole paragraph begins in one Peter three verse eight. Finally, all of you live in harmony with one another, be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble, do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you are called. That's why it's hard. That's that's that's why we don't do it. That's why it's so much easier to memorize five arguments for the existence of God than it is to be completely sympathetic and compassionate and humble and you know, and when people give you evil to replay repay them with blessing. What's really hard is just loving people, but but that's actually the power. Um and that's what we're sort of thinking about in this series, the the power of um the gospel doesn't doesn't come simply because we hurl a message from p you know from on high um that's completely detached from what they've just you know been talking about. But it it comes in the way that salvation came to us. It comes humanized, it comes enfleshed, it comes face to face, shoulder to shoulder, eyeball to eyeball. Um it comes as as we share life with other people. And maybe my first little plea, if we want to be power evangelists, um, is to forget about spiritualizing the odd conversation, but pray before the Lord, will you make me human? Um Becky Manley Pippett's little book, um it's not a little book, it's it's um uh it was quite expanded after it did so well to begin with, but uh Out of the Salt Shaker uh just begins with that that beautiful point that Christ uh was the true human. And what we really need in evangelism is not uh more people who can bring an alien message, because it is an alien message, but we don't need more alien alienating people. We we need more human people who've been humanized by Jesus to just share life and be in it for for the long haul. So that's that's our first prayer point as we seek to be power evangelists.
SPEAKER_02I mean when I when I think back, the spiritual developments in my life have come about through people, you know, yes ministering God's work. Many, many people who say they come become Christians have had a person that has brought them to the Lord. I mean, I have heard of people, you know, picking up a tract off the off the ground.
SPEAKER_00You read a Gideon's Bible, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But majority of people come through a person, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well, exactly. And it's so it's back to that Romans 10 thing, isn't it? That the yeah, absolutely, the whole heavens declaring the gospel, but the the the normal, ordinary way that God has designed for for for the church to spread is actually preachers, eyeball to eyeball, going to be with another person and and and that's because God's growing a family. Yeah, he's not just zapping, you know, he could he could just say, Okay, India, zap, you're Christian. He he could do that. Um but he's building a family, he's not zapping people from on high. And if that's if that's true, then what's what's his power evangelism gonna look like? It's not gonna look like the the the lightning bolt. It's gonna look like ordinary Christians living ordinary lives, being completely sympathetic and living in harmony with one another and loving his brothers and sisters and being compassionate and humble. That's that's what it's gonna look like. So that's that's my little plea to begin with. To be a power evangelist, for goodness sake, love.
SPEAKER_02So have you seen this sort of working out in your own experience?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I mean I I think every every church is built on this. Not not so much the fire falling from on high, but but ordinary Christians living ordinary Christian lives. I I think back to sort of we had a batch of baptisms at uh at our church recently, and and sort of all the baptisms sort of testimonies were were kind of, well, this friend met me at a hard time and stayed with me, and um here I am, you know. It's it's that kind of thing. I I I think of one guy who came to to Christ in our church family um a couple of years back, um who got to know us through cricket, and in particular the the vicar of our church uh is a great cricketer and and I love to play cricket as well. But um uh you know, he he came to Christ not because in the dressing rooms my vicar, you know, had the the this killer line that you know always stuck and stuck with him. But actually this guy got a cancer diagnosis, he had six months to live, and he thought, who do I turn to? I'll turn to Neil because I trust him, I know him, he's done life with me. Um and then, you know, and and his wife came to the Lord and and you know but but that's that's the way everyone well v virtually everyone comes to the Lord in these sorts of ways. Often in evangelism training I sort of ask people to picture an evangelist, and they always picture the the guy with on the soapbox with the placard. And then I ask them to describe to their neighbour someone who helps them come to trust Jesus. And the person they describe at that point is someone completely different, someone who's genuine, someone who has real authenticity and integrity to their life, who's patient, who's you know, very different to the evangelist who they imagined. And yet the person who led them to the Lord, are they a good evangelist? You know, they're tremendous evangelists. But it's the power of ordinary Christian living that got them there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well that kind of uh brings us to a summary, you know, that uh i as you were saying at the beginning, it's you know the the ordinary, the foolish things of the world.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02That uh God's chosen to to do his work.
SPEAKER_00And I th I think two points of application. One is, you know, pray, Lord Jesus, break my heart, make me someone who loves rather than someone who has all the answers. You know, I I want to be the evangelist with all the answers, and God calls me the per to be the person who loves all the people. Um I love to be right. Do I love you know the people who are asking the questions? That's that's the much deeper, much more profound, much more powerful point. So, you know, pray Lord make make me a lover. And I think just in the back and forth of a conversation with a non-Christian friend, I think the the way on is the way down. If if the cross is anything to go by, the way on is the way down. So that it's not so much your friend talks to you about cross-country skiing and you want to slap on top of that a Bible verse from Isaiah chapter 1, verse 18. I think far more it's let's go deeper with cross-country skiing. Why? Why? Why? And and as you dig deeper and deeper, you're going to more heart level issues, and you're going, so what is it about I don't know, solitude? Or what is it about, you know, getting together with friends, or what is it what is it about you know, what is it about rest? What is it what is it about any of these things? What is it about nature that you're responding to in in all these things? Um Yeah, it's it's not uh it's not about slapping a Bible verse on top of stuff, but going deeper and deeper and deeper. Not to spiritualise a conversation, but to humanize your interaction.
SPEAKER_02Okay, we've got some things to to think about there. We'll go on next time to talking about the power of church. Good plan.
SPEAKER_00I'm all for that, yeah, I'm totally. I haven't slept this year. You need to you need to realize this.
SPEAKER_02Right, the web address for this episode is uh we're we're episode 81, so it's uh revivalmedia.org slash tep eighty one. We'll have the links there. If you want to sign up to the podcast via email, you can do that on that page. That's it for now. See you next time.
SPEAKER_00See ya.