Today on the Evangelist Podcast we're talking to Carl Lafferton.
SPEAKER_02The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scriver.
SPEAKER_05Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm Andy Brinkley and this is Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01This is me. Hello everybody. My friend and boss. That's it. In that order. Sounded like David Brent at that point.
SPEAKER_05Good. Well, on the podcast today, we've got Carl Lafferton.
SPEAKER_01Carl Lafferton.
SPEAKER_05So um that was an interview that you did earlier.
SPEAKER_01Author, editor, all round good egg. Um so yes, he he's written a number of books, and in fact, uh he wrote Christmas Uncut, which was the book that we gave away with our Christmas videos last year. So when people clicked at the end of the Anti Santi Ranty or at the end of Christmas in Dark Places, the offer that they received was actually a Carl Lafferton book.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Christmas Uncut. And so he's done another book with uh Michael Dormandy called Tricky, The Hardest Questions to Ask About Christianity, and some answers.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So uh what have you been up to recently? You you had a big long drive up to uh quite the drive up to up to Glasgow.
SPEAKER_01There was uh Yeah, is it Glasgow? Because you were up you were up there for a few years, weren't you? It's Glasgow.
SPEAKER_05Well Glasgow. Glasge.
SPEAKER_01Glasgow. Glasgy. Um if you're from there, please don't hate us. Um it's mainly Andy. Um I because that sounds posh to me, Glasgow.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, probably my southern drool.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. Is it bath or bath?
SPEAKER_05Cool question.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05I say bath.
SPEAKER_01Bath, yeah, I say bath. I say bath. Yeah, because I'm very southern. Um so yes, I went up to Glasgow. I was meant to fly, but there was a mix-up with the tickets. So uh having driven, you know, about an hour up to Gatwick, um, I then drove the rest of the sort of eight hours from Gatwick to Glasgow. So that was but it it formed a very uh integral part of actually my teaching, because I was teaching Colossians and how we're in Christ. And I said the difference between being in Christ and your regular just slogging it out religious life is if when you're in Christ, the ticket is bought for you, you freely, you know, get into the plane, you are seated, everything happens to you, whatever happens to the plane happens to you who are in the plane. It's exactly like being in Christ, it's all paid for you, you're in Christ, seated in heav heavenly places. Um Most of us do Christian life the Christian life like we're bombing up the M6, you know, and and we're tired and we've and we've got to keep on refueling and refueling. So turned turned that experience of I actually spent about twenty-four hours of this last weekend driving. So uh but uh you know, managed to turn that into a into a little lesson for us all. Um and it was great because the the student gave me a card at the end and they said, Thank you for driving all the way to Glasgow to tell us that we don't need to.
SPEAKER_05So You'd gone through it, so they didn't. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01How bury Christ like so that was good. So that I'm in the middle of a lot of student stuff at the moment. Um this weekend going to University of East Anglia Um so up in Norwich uh and uh speaking to students there, and then got some more student carol services with Reading and Norwich and Glasgow and Eastbourne even. Um and Lewis even. Um so a few different uh Carolsy things coming up as well. Good, okay. Oh, and the book. The book. The book. Um yes, it's been completely proofread and everything's like done and dusted and uh 321, the story of God, the world in you, is coming out with it's the Rolls-Royceable tracts. Okay. Uh Jez Pointer has done a brilliant job on the design.
SPEAKER_05It's a three D tract. Three-dimensional.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it is, yes. Because it's a Trinitarian, you know, thing, so it's it's threefold and and um and and actually it folds up into a pyramid. So that as you take people through it, you can sort of show them the pictures on the three sides of the pyramid, and those are the three, two, one it's it's uh if I do say so myself, it's going to change evangelicalism um for the next half a century. Did I go too far? Okay. Okay. It's a tract you can fold. Is that more realistic? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's attractive. It's a trap.
SPEAKER_01Very good. Anyway, enough. It makes all other tracks look flat and two-dimensional. Yes, because they are.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so um let's uh listen to Carl Lafferton and uh see what he has to say about the book.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So with me is Carl Lafferdon, co-author of the book Tricky, The Hardest Questions to Ask About Christianity and Some Answers. Welcome to the program. Thanks very much for having me. Brilliant. I I really like that your your title to the book ends with and some answers. Um because otherwise it'd be quite a strange book, wouldn't it? The hardest questions to ask about Christianity, and then that's it.
SPEAKER_03That would be Yeah, it would be a short book as well if it was just the contents page and then blank pages to fill in your own answers. Yes. Um people look quite like that, actually, I would have thought. That could be we we filled in the answers for people so that they feel they've got their money's worth.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And you've filled them in very, very well. And it's it's you and Michael Dormandy. Um tell us a bit about yourself and a bit about Michael.
SPEAKER_03Uh so I'm senior editor at the Good Book Company, and um I'm also the author of uh Christmas Uncut and Original Jesus, which are um uh books to give away evangelistically. Um and um Michael is actually the the sort of genius behind the Genesis for this book, in that he came to us and said that um he felt that there weren't very many um books out there that were uh biblical and warm and written in a non-academic way for young adults and older teenagers. And um when we thought about it, we thought actually that that might be right. Um so yeah, so that's that's where the book came from, really. Michael is uh is a second year um uh ordinand at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford.
SPEAKER_01Ordenand means someone on the way to becoming ordained in the Church of England.
SPEAKER_03He's training to be allowed to wear a dog collar. Vicar factory, yes. Yeah, he's on the conveyor belt. How to wear a dog collar. Um he's halfway through. I think he knows what a dog collar is now, but he hasn't yet learned how to popper it up behind his collar.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And then he yeah. I was gonna say something that uh but then I thought my bishop might be listening, and that would be bad. Um brilliant. So how how do you write a book together with somebody else? I mean, did you sit in the same room or what how how does that process work?
SPEAKER_03Uh well, uh now you're asking how the sausage is made, Glenn, and people like sausages, but they don't like to animate. Um joint authorship works in uh innumerable different ways depending on the exact project. In this case, um Michael wrote the first draft, and then I uh went to work on it and um uh added bits and changed bits and so on, and then Michael and I would have a phone conversation uh for most of the chapters about um exactly how we were going to uh arrive at the final shape. And uh some of the chapters it was very easy to do that for, and some of them it took a lot longer because um they were harder questions or uh more sensitive questions, and so we worked much harder and spoke much more uh about those particular ones. And that's how yeah, that's how this particular sausage was made.
SPEAKER_01Well, it I mean, it does have a remarkably uniform kind of sense, so I think you did you did well on that. Let's uh let's have a look at the contents. So here are the nine questions you came up with. I'll ask you in a second, like how you whittled it down to nine or how you came up with these nine, but the nine are doesn't Jesus ruin your fun? In the end, isn't just Oh, in the end it's just a matter of opinion, sorry. I need to learn to read. You've you've written a perfectly good book, I just need to read. Um in the end it's just a matter of opinion, isn't it? Is number two. Number three, how can anyone believe Jesus rose from the dead? Number four, if Jesus is real, why is there so much suffering? Number five, does Jesus care about my pain? Number six, hasn't science disproved God? Number seven, what does Jesus really think about being gay? Number eight, surely you don't think there's only one true religion. And number nine, why should I bother with Jesus? Are these the nine trickiest questions in all Christendom?
SPEAKER_03I think I think they're the nine trickiest questions to be asked by some uh uh uh of the questions that people who are looking into Christianity or utterly sceptical tend to ask in an honest way. Um I don't think that they are the hardest questions that it is possible to ask about the Christian faith in the sense that there's nothing in here about uh the Trinity, there's nothing in here about preset predestination and and and so on. But in my experience, um people who are honestly asking questions uh tend to be asking these ones, and I think I think they're pretty tough.
SPEAKER_01They're certainly the ones that I get asked, and and it seems like you've had a very deliberate uh your your method has been to get straight to Jesus and to think, how is Jesus the answer to these questions? How does what he did and what he said answer these questions? Was that a sort of a deliberate choice from from the outset?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I think there there were two things that um we wanted to do, um both of which really came came from Michael, so I can't claim credit for them. The the first was not to just do a book uh that that got a head knowledge. So um chapters like you know, Does Jesus Care About My Pain are much more trying to um uh reach the heart. Um we didn't want it to be nine sort of fairly intellectual questions about the resurrection and you know suffering in a in a sort of a whole world sense and um those kind of things. We wanted there to be chapters which are the ones that we asked from our hearts as well as our heads. That was the first thing. Second thing was yes, it was a deliberate policy to to make sure that we we got to Jesus reasonably quickly, simply because I mean he's he he is the hope that we have, isn't he? And um and so he's the one that is going to grab people and it's a cliche, but that all authors Christian authors say, but you know, I want people to walk away from the book thinking about him and not thinking about something funny that happened to Michael or me or whatever. And I spent the first, I guess, four or five years of my Christian life attempting to argue people into the kingdom by sort of deploying arguments that I thought would tear down their position. And and of course, that that just never works. What people uh are saved by is is a person on an argument. And so I think our our tactic in this book, as as in general evangelism, was to respect the question and run to Jesus for the answer to the question. I think it's easy to sort of it's easy to get it wrong in one of two ways, isn't it? Either to sort of uh be so busy arguing about the question that you forget to talk about Jesus, the uh the other equal and opposite error is is to say, Oh, I'm really glad you've asked me about science. Let me just tell you about Jesus dying on the cross, because that's really the question that you ought to be asking him. Um and this is trying to sort of go somewhere in between those two extremes.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and uh but it it so organically shows that Jesus is indeed the answer uh to these questions. I th yeah, I think if if we if it's a shift of gears between the questions that people want to ask and our concept of Jesus, perhaps we've got quite a small concept of Jesus at the end of the day. Um but I but I think I think you've got a very um a very rounded full view of Jesus which which comes across in the book. Um can we have a look at maybe maybe a couple of the the tricky questions? And um let me let me get a flavour of your your answer um to them. I I actually I I liked that you began with with question one, doesn't Jesus ruin your fun? Um what were you trying to do with with that chapter?
SPEAKER_03I th I think a lot of people just have this view of Christianity um maybe without articulating it very often, that actually, you know, it might be true, but it isn't wonderful. Um and I think um for the rest of the book it was important that we showed that actually it would be great if Christianity were true, rather than it would be a real shame if Christianity were true. Um and so the the aim of that chapter was simply to to say, look, actually, you know, when J Jesus meant what he said when he said that he'd come to offer life and life to the full. Um and and to and to try and sort of just gently strip away at this idea that Christianity is about trading in your life now in order to get eternity later. Um so that was why that that was why the the the chapter was in there. I I hope that a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily articulate that question would look down the contents page, get to number one, and think, actually, that that is pretty much what I think. And and then want to read the book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I th I think it was very uh helpful um the whole Jesus-centeredness of the whole book. And when you are uh you know addressing an issue like doesn't Jesus spoil your fun? I mean, instantly you were just able to say, Well, look, let's think about Jesus. When he lived on earth, he didn't get accused of being boring very much. Um and then you're just off and away. And I I I thought that sort of characterized your answers in really helpful ways. Um do you think that's something we need to sort of train ourselves to do a bit more? Just think, well, how does Jesus answer this particular question?
SPEAKER_03Uh to a certain extent, yes. I mean, I think I I I don't want to get red letter Bibile in my evangelism where um I I feel I can only talk about what what Jesus did and said um in in the Gospels. So I want I want to guard against that. But I think that Jesus is it is is just a great model for for our evangelism. I mean, talking about that uh that particular question, I mean it it's just very striking who it was who clearly felt able to um spend time with Jesus, ask Jesus questions, um, you know, they're precisely not the kind of people that we tend to find in most of our our evangelical churches today in this country. And I I think for my for my own life and witness, I just find that extremely challenging. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So as long as we have a uh yeah, if we have a big enough Jesus, if it's yeah, if it's the red letter Jesus, then that's actually probably quite a small Jesus. Um but yeah, we we definitely need a bigger vision of Jesus, and then as we bring him to bear, hopefully it has uh fruitful outcomes for our evangelism. Um I uh I was also very taken and and enjoyed your chapter seven. What does Jesus really think about being gay? Um, because I I think in evangelism that's that's a question that sort of comes up in a heartbeat. You could be talking about any question in the world, and then suddenly sort of sexuality is uh on the menu, even if you didn't order it. Um wha what do you think is uh sort of some helpful principles for us to think through if that issue gets raised in evangelism? How do you think we should go about addressing it?
SPEAKER_03Well, the first thing to say is I'm no kind of expert. Um and I and I think anybody who thinks they've got kind of uh a way of speaking to something that is is culturally very unacceptable and personally very painful for people, anybody who who thinks they've got a one-minute answer to it is is is almost certainly wrong. Well they haven't probably tried it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03They've either not tried it or they're about to um completely change the face of um of the the church and the country. Um I look, I I think in this area above all, we've got to live evangelistically before we seek to speak evangelistically. Um by which I mean I think we've we've got to both corporately as churches and individually as Christians make it very clear that we love people. And it doesn't matter what you do or who you are or how you identify yourself, we we love people, we will pour ourselves out for people, go the extra mile for people, and we'll be accepting of people in the sense of not making our our love or our time dependent on who you're sleeping with. Yes. Um so I think I I think we're never gonna win somebody's ear for the gospel if we don't live the gospel to them. Yes. And something that I think is very challenging for me, for for all Christians, for churches, is do I actually have friends and keep friends who who are gay and actively gay? Because if not, then I think then I think actually we are living up to or rather down to the media stereotype of evangelical Christians as being bigoted. Um we need to have friendships that can that that are l clearly loving enough that they can bear the weight of us telling the truth within that friendship. Yes. And then having said all that, we need to be uh clear about what the Bible does say and doesn't say um on this issue, as as with all others. And I I I mean i it it won't be a surprise to know that as we wrote the book, the chapter that we found the hardest um was this one um because we want to be clear about what Jesus says uh about sex, um but we also wanted to acknowledge how hard it is for somebody who is same-sex attracted and has been living that out um to hear that Jesus uh to hear what Jesus has to say about their particular life choices and to see that as good news. Um that is that is obviously gonna be gonna be very hard. So so we need to be clear, but we need to be loving at the same time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and I I that that's all I've got.
SPEAKER_01No, well, I mean I and I think you do that quite well in the in the book in terms of the chapter, um setting it up with yes, the that loving nature of Jesus, um, yeah, being truthful. Look, Matthew 19, this is what Jesus says, and then you you know you go to Romans 1 as well and say, look, you know, the rest of the New Testament sort of comes at it from this same angle. And what I enjoyed is is sort of as the chapter comes to an end, you you end with a few could it be uh sort of questions, sort of painting a picture. You know, could it be that Jesus is the God who can give you more joy and security than than sex ever could? And and you and I uh it was interesting we had um uh we had Andrew Wilson in in the studio uh a couple of weeks ago um talking about sort of the I'm I'm following Andrew Wilson, that's um Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's a bit ridiculous, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_03From the sublime to the anyway, go on.
SPEAKER_01To the laffeton. Yeah. Um we um yeah, no, and and and we spoke then about the need to paint uh beautiful pictures of the Christian view of sex. And and you know, is is there a way of proclaiming Christian sexuality um in a way that, yes, to begin with, sounds outrageous and strange and but if entered into has an internal harmony and beauty to it um that could be compelling to somebody. Um we we sort of we concluded that yeah, that that book has has yet to be written, but um look, I think I mean on on a book like Tricky, I I think we are mistaken if we think that a an apologetics book is very likely to be anything more than one stage in an ongoing conversation between a Christian and and a non-believer.
SPEAKER_03Um and so it a chapter like that, particularly on a subject like this, um I can't imagine. I mean, I I pray that the Holy Spirit uh uses that chapter to bring people who either are same-sex attracted themselves or for whom this is a huge stumbling block in general. I pray that he uses the chapter to bring them from thinking Christianity cannot be correct because it says that act of homosexuality is wrong, to repenting and believing by the end of the chapter. But being realistic and humanly speaking, that's not going to happen. What this might do is move somebody along in an ongoing conversation. And so that the reason that we wanted to raise those questions at the end was so that we didn't finish, if you like, on an exclamation mark, but with a question mark, just saying to somebody as gently as possible look, actually, could it be that while you find great things in um sex outside uh heterosexual marriage, and and and let's be honest, you know, the gay community can be. Very welcoming, affirming, and secure. And often our stereoty we stereotype others as much as they stereotype us. Could it be that actually there is something even better? Could it be that actually what you've been seeking and only finding to some to a certain extent, but not fully, in one place could actually uh be given to you completely in in the Lord Jesus? Now, obviously, I I think and you think the answer is yes, but just telling somebody that um is is is unlikely to work, I think, on a on a subject like this. Asking them whether it's possible and therefore whether they need to keep looking and looking openly is is I think perhaps a more fruitful way of moving the conversation forwards. That's that's why we we finished that particular chapter in the way that we did.
SPEAKER_01That's very helpful actually. Hav having uh modest aims for your sentence for your chapters. I I I think maybe in our conversations, perhaps we need to think about having modest aims in a conversation if if homosexual homosexuality comes up, that our modest aim would be can we at least say that there is a conceivable world in which Christians could hold a traditional sex ethic and not hate everybody? Like, is it is it possible not to be homophobic and to, you know, hold to the words of Jesus? Maybe that should just be our first goal, and then yeah, seek to keep on loving and keep talking and yeah.
SPEAKER_03I I when when when homosexuality comes up in a conversation, uh my my prayer is not that in talking about that issue, um somebody would suddenly realise that Jesus is the Son of God who can't save them from their sins and fall down and worship him. My hope, my prayer is that we will be able to keep having a conversation beyond that topic. Um that won't that they won't rule Jesus out because of what he says um in that area, that they will keep considering Christ, um even once we've sort of moved on from talking about about homosexuality.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that sort of gels with what you've said about you know your hopes for this book is to progress somewhat along the along the road to to faith. Is is that what you see as the point of evangelistic books? I guess that there could be different kinds of evangelistic books, I suppose. What what what are you hoping for from a book like Tricky or from your previous books, Christmas Uncut, or or Original Jesus? What are you hoping for as you as you publish those books?
SPEAKER_03That that's that's a good question. I mean, uh obviously I'm hoping that somebody will will I mean take Tricky for an example that they will read the book, they'll get to the last chapter which which looks at Zacchaeus, and they'll think, you know, I need to I I need to I well, I have climbed a tree to look at Jesus as it were by reading this book. I need to get down my tree and uh and welcome Jesus into my life just as Zacchaeus did. Obviously, I hope and pray that I'll meet one or two, or you know, maybe a hundred or two hundred or or whatever people in the new creation who say, you know, actually I got to the last chapter and that's what I did. And, you know, all glory to God if if that happens. But I think a a book that an evangelistic book that finishes with two options, accept Christ or reject Christ, is actually unhelpful, I think. Because I think a lot of people are going to finish a book like Tricky or like Christmas Uncut or Original Dis or any book about about the gospel. And and they they're not yet in a position to accept Christ, to repent and believe. And I want to give them another option, which is keep looking. Uh I think it's well, I I don't think I know it's only the Holy Spirit that can bring somebody to the position of saying, Yes, Lord. And I don't want to suggest to people that if they're not in that position, then the only thing they can do is say, no, absolutely not, and and and walk away from the whole thing. I'd like them to finish tricky and think, I I'm not ready to say yes, but I do need to keep looking, I do need to keep asking, I do need to keep talking, maybe I do need to go to a church if I'm not already. And I think, you know, hopefully there'll be another book or another conversation or another sermon or another uh outreach event at which the Holy Spirit does um does work in their hearts. Um but but I want them to be in that conversation or at that event rather than having felt that this was their one shot, as it were, and and that was that. I once went to a horrendous evangelistic, no, it's a very good evangelistic talk, but the leader afterwards said, Um, you know, we're gonna have a time of quiet now, and this is a time for you to uh give your life to Christ if you want. And then and then she said um after a time of quiet, she said, Right, I'm gonna give you another ten seconds to give your life to Christ. This is your opportunity. Um and I'm gonna count down. And I was like, this isn't well, this might be your only opportunity. Jesus may return in ten seconds, but if he doesn't, then the day of salvation is continuing, and um we need to make clear to people that they they have until their death or the return of Christ to to repent and believe. The time is short, but you know, not that short.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And perhaps I mean, would it would it have been better if that came from the actual speaker in their address saying, Now is the day of salvation, close with Christ now. Um I d I d yeah, I yeah I guess the so that the the revelation of the good news, here is Jesus offered to you, take him, is is a message that that needs to be expressed somehow, but perhaps that happens best, you know, from the pulpit in a in the moment. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Um I think there's always got to be uh an an invitation or command, um hasn't that you know, um the the gospel is brilliant, won't you come in? The the gospel is urgent, you really need to come into the kingdom. But but I think and you know Glenn, I'm uh I'm aware that um you have far more experience of this and and have done more far more thinking. It seems to me that I need to say, you know, maybe maybe you're somebody who knows you need to respond to that invitation right now, and if you are, then do it now, and that's wonderful. Um but maybe you're somebody who who knows that there's something here but you need to carry on thinking about it. And if that's you, then here's how I would encourage you to do that thinking, but don't just walk away and stop thinking. I I I think there need to almost be two invitations um in our evangelism. Come into the kingdom, that's the best thing you can do. Uh but if you're not going to do that, then for goodness sake, keep thinking about these things because I hope you've seen that you can't just dismiss it. Um and you know, people people I I remember when I was working uh for a church up north, because I was working for the church, a lot of my evangelism was speaking to people and and somebody else had already done the hard yards, you know, somebody else had already witnessed to them and shown them what a Christian life looked like and got them interested and answered their first questions, and now I was going out for a pipe with them or whatever. So they're already like a long way along. It's very easy to think that everybody is in that state if you're in the Christian sort of pastoral bubble, as it were. And and actually people are uh are way, way back, and it normally takes years and countless conversations and a lot of um questions and answers and events and so on for them to come to the point where that they're ready to to make the commitments. And I need to remember when I'm writing and when I'm speaking how far back uh a a lot of people are, and that one book and one talk is is unlikely, humanly speaking, to be what the the only thing necessary to bring them into the kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Very helpful, thank you. So what what do you what have you got up next at the Good Book Company? What's uh you've got quite oh you've got you've got a Christmas um Alex Webb Peplo drawn illustrated uh Luke's gospel thing happening. I saw that the other day. That looks fantastic.
SPEAKER_03What's that uncle? So that's that's light in the darkness. That is a uh I think they call it a graphic realization of the events of um Christmas. It goes with the third day, which is the same uh for Easter. And the the great thing about it is that um Alex Webpe is just a fantastic artist and he he does um you know bring the events to life. And if you're somebody who isn't a reader, or you know people who aren't particular readers, then you know something that is more visual than the wordy is great. The other genius of it is that the the only words in it are the words of Luke's gospel, there are no additions, and so it it just brings people face to face with the Jesus of the gospel um in a in a really uh evocative and and interesting way. So yeah, so I'm I'm I'm praying that that would be greatly used and greatly used by the Spirit for people who probably wouldn't read um what we might call a a normal book. Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01What would you do uh sort of final question almost, what what would you give away in an evangelistic setting? So you've got a mate, and maybe they'll come to a Christmas carol service or something, and they'll be interested enough to come with you to that. They were interested enough at the carol service, and you think, I'm gonna get this person uh a a present, a book that will help them to understand more about Jesus. What would you what would you uh and you you're allowed to say your own book, but um but if you if you say your own book, you've got to say at least two others. Um so what would you what would you offer to people in that sort of situation?
SPEAKER_03Um well it depends completely who they are, and I know I know that sounds like a cop-out. Um one thing I would say is that um particularly with the Christmas Carol service, I'd want to give them something short. Um Christmas, uh yeah, the the whole time is busy, isn't it? And people I think read less than we would like them to, or certainly as a publisher than I would like them to. And but particularly at Christmas, you know, if I give somebody a 400-page book, it could be brilliant, but the chances are they're never going to get going with it because it's just a big book and you don't have time to read big books. So I'd want to give them something short. It uh and it's why I wrote Christmas Uncut, to be to be to be gospel, to be about Christmas, and to be short enough that I would hope people think, yeah, I could I could read a chap a chapter a day over Christmas, no trouble. There's only like ten pages a chapter or whatever, and there are only eight chapters. So um, so given that that's why I wrote it, I I'd want to say Christmas Uncut.
SPEAKER_01We gave that away last w last year, actually, with um with our Christmas videos. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for putting food into my children's mouths, Glenn. There are two there are two very grateful toddlers um in um and they now have shoes.
SPEAKER_01Otherwise, yeah.
SPEAKER_03They well, one shoe. Um other uh other things um that uh that I might give away would be, you know, I I think uh Tim Keller's prodigal god is Keller at his most accessible, so you get the brilliance of of Tim Keller in a very sort of pared-down um uh you know, it's it's a reasonably short book. Um other other things I would I would give away. Some of the um some of Roger Carl's well's sort of testimonial or testimony-based um books are are are just a different way of getting the truth of the gospel. And you know, then there's a there's a very good book called 321. Coming out soon. But you know, I think I think the thing about evangelistic books is um it takes it takes a lot for somebody to give their non-Christian friend a book. You know, it's it it it's maybe their one shot. Um and so um these books need to be the best we're producing and publishing. Um they need to be they need to be better written and better designed and look better than the books we write for uh for fellow fellow believers, um in in my opinion. Because, you know, if if if as a Christian I read a Christ uh a book about Christianity and it it's not particularly good, then that's fine. I'll probably read another one. I forgive her.
SPEAKER_01I forgive him, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But but you know, I will because I'm a Christian and and I want to ease up the gospel in in in any way I can, but but if I'm a non-Christian, then uh and I don't like a book about Christianity, then that might be it. And I might not read another one, I might not carry on the conversation. So I I'm I'm much more careful about the books I will recommend to give to a non-Christian than I am books I recommend to uh for for for Christians to to read. Yes.
SPEAKER_01It's the front door. We want to polish the knob and uh make sure it's all uh well marked and yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. That's a good word for it.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. Well, Carl, thank you so much for spending time with us. Oh, thanks. Yeah, Carl and Michael Dormandy's book is called Tricky, The Hardest Questions to Ask About Christianity, and some answers, and the answers are heartfelt and Jesus centered and very helpful, and uh we hope it does great good. I'm sure it will. Was I meant to say something then? I don't know. I I hope so. Yeah, I know. I'm sure it'll do great, great good. Um so thanks so much, Carl. Thank you for having me. See you again.
SPEAKER_05He touches on some really quite complicated questions there. And uh, you know, ones which uh could get you in a lot of hot water, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I did drop him in some hot water, sort of uh so how do you how do you handle the question of homosexuality and all that sort of stuff?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um I thought it was very wise what he was saying.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, first of all, it's about loving them and you know, and it's good that he's written it with someone and they've kind of discussed it and uh you know it's it's very helpful, you know, to kind of look at that from from different points of view.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I I really yeah, so as he was talking about, okay, in this chapter, I'm just wanting to move someone from you know here to here and and just make a move them an inch along the line rather than get them confessing, you know, Christ as Lord. Um I think yeah, I I think that's that's very important um you know to be held together with. There must be a way there must be a way of proclaiming Christ the Lord to uh as to a culture that that views sex so uh highly surely there's a way of of I mean I don't know what it is yet, but there's gotta be a way of of talking about you know Jesus the fulfilment of our sexual desires. If he's the fulfilment of every other kind of desire, then then surely he is that. And yeah, we've got we've gotta keep on doing some work, but I thought I thought Carl was pointing in all the right directions.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Okay, well h how can folks get hold of a copy then?
SPEAKER_01So they can go to the show notes and uh and look up uh tricky, the hardest questions to ask about Christianity and some answers, and it's published by the Good Book Company.
SPEAKER_05Okay. And we can also put a link to your book, which is available for pre-order.
SPEAKER_01That's true. That's true. Yeah. Yes. And it says it's available for pre-order on the first of January twenty fifteen. Might be able to get it out sooner than that. Might be able to get it out for Christmas, but we shall see. We shall see. You can pray about that.
SPEAKER_05Get in there before New York Times bestseller list. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Get in there, get in there. Okay, so uh the place to go for this episode to uh to get the the links to the books is revivalmedia.org slash T E P seventy Um It must be about seventy um seventy-one, seventy-two. Seventy-three. Seventy four. It must be about seventy-seven. I reckon it's seventy-seven. Anyway.
SPEAKER_00Adrian Holyway was seventy-six. Really? Yeah, so seventy-seven.
SPEAKER_05For all those people that are crazy about the evangelist podcast will realize that we didn't have an episode last week.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05But uh yes, okay, so the web address is revivalmedia.org slash tep seventy seven. So that's it for this week. Uh sign up for the email notification for the podcast, and we'll see you next time. See ya.