Today on the Evangelist Podcast, we continue our discussion of apologetics.
SPEAKER_00The Evangelist Podcast from Revival. Find out what's new in telling people the good news about God, the world, and you. With Andy Brinkley and Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the Evangelist Podcast. I'm Andy Brinkley and this is Jerusalem Awards.
SPEAKER_01Not again. Not again. Winner. Winner. Oh yeah. Glenn Scrivener.
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SPEAKER_01So when was that? That was last week, wasn't it? It was, yeah. So you got your little Got my little very heavy Perspex brick. Perspex, is it? Yes. Not glass. I don't know. Is it glass? I don't I don't really know. Okay. It's um no, it's nice, it's was a nice thing to receive, and we went up to BAFTA.
SPEAKER_03That was you and Sam Quan.
SPEAKER_01Sam Kwan, who uh yes, did the video, made it look very pretty.
SPEAKER_03And um Josh Luc Josh Lucas did the uh audio.
SPEAKER_01Josh Lucas did the very good sound. And again, like you watch these videos without the sound and without the well without the music. And you think, eh, whatever. But then like the yeah, the music comes, and it's genuine goosebumps time and so yeah, that was nice. It was nice to sort of it was nice to meet lots of other people who want to speak of Jesus online um and and yeah, and we all sort of see actually that, you know, Facebook and Twitter is is really a uh harvest field and and we need to be sowing good seed onto it. So good to meet lots of other people who are keen to do that and uh collaborate with them in the future, I hope.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so so you we've got another you've got another video coming out soon, you hope.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. Remembrance day, and it needs to be soon. So uh I don't know, I mean all year I've been thinking I should probably write a World War One themed spoken word thing. Uh and then sort of one three weeks before you Yeah, I know. Sort of inspiration sort of hits instantly and you go, Oh, okay, let's give it a go. So um so we shot that last week and we're editing it together, and uh hopefully well, it'll be it'll be out in the next week or two.
SPEAKER_03Um and his uh video shooting and editing skills.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and good old Josh Lucas again. So yeah, so when it comes out, please do be sharing on Facebook and Twitter and uh emailing it around and uh yeah, hopefully it just a way of talking about the wars of long ago are actually in our hearts, aren't they? Um and we can sort of point to the Kaiser's pride and we can point to a nation's greed and fear and all this sort of thing. Um but that's all in our own hearts. Um we need to know a Prince of Peace and and sort of yeah, so a little proclamation of Jesus the Prince of Peace at the end and so hope hopefully a way in with your non-Christian friends to to talking about Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Good. Well, this week we're um we're kind of following on from what we did last time, which was uh the apologetics. We op opened up uh talking about uh apologetics. Yes.
SPEAKER_01A can of fire breathing worms.
SPEAKER_03We got some response. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're gonna be looking at that response in a moment. I just want to say thanks to Duane Seaberg. Is that how you say it? Dwayne, maybe? Yeah. Dwayne Seaburg has given us a review on iTunes. It says your Christ-centred approach and how he shapes everything and how Trinity shapes the gospel, what I get is Jesus has been eye-opening for me. I'm indebted to you. Thank you. So that's a good review for the podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Duane. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, should we ha have a look at some of this uh feedback a couple of people have commented and yeah, it'd just be good to sort of clarify some things and and uh discuss further about apologetics.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good. Okay, well the first one will comes from Dave Jones, and he says, Thanks for the helpful discussion. This is referring to last uh episode. Any thoughts on how to answer apologetic style questions when they get thrown at you by the people you're speaking to? He says, I've reconnected with an old friend by email who's heard the gospel loads and asked whether Jesus ever claimed to be God. That's his word. Which has led us into protracted emails about historical questions over whether the gospel progressively embellish Jesus' claims and whether that's more likely than him really rising from the dead and being God's son. And we've counted a bit on which God Christians do don't believe in and how rational we are. Which doesn't feel tremendously fruitful, but seems to be the issue, preventing him engaging with Jesus at the moment. Would should do you ever go down those sorts of apologetic rabbit trails or do you just show him around your house, point out how wonderful and beautiful it is until his eyes are open to see that or something else?
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you very much for getting in touch, uh, Dave. Um yeah, got all sorts of thoughts about how to uh answer apologetic style questions, and uh perhaps we can put on the show notes a few other episodes we've done. We've done a whole series on sort of hot potatoes and and how we kind of go about answering those. Um and sort of one one thing that I always kind of say when questions are asked of us is not simply to respond on their own terms. So I think that's quite important as we're thinking about uh apologetics and and this way of doing apologetics. So quite often I I think of four R's when people ask questions of us. I think um firstly, like let's relate um how that question actually personally affects us. So if they talk about suffering, let's not like treat it as though it's this abstract idea and keep it at arm's length. You know, talk about how it's related to you, how it's related to your friend. I think relating the question to real life is important. I think very important is reframing the question according to gospel terms. Um so they might ask about suffering and God. Uh well, let's make sure we're talking about the Christian God. Um let's let's make sure that we're um discussing things on on the terms that the Bible gives to us. So relate, reframe, reflect the question back to the ask. Because they've they've also got to deal with the suffering world, don't they? Um whatever question they've got. Um so you know, Dave's friend here uh is uh has doubts about the authority of the scriptures and and whether you know you can trust uh these historical documents. Well, who does he trust? And on what basis? And i and is he absolutely certain that he can trust this, that, and the other, and on what grounds? Um these are all questions that everyone has to answer. These questions of authority, what we know and how we know it, they're questions that everyone needs to to answer, so reflect the question back, and then reveal the gospel centered on Jesus. Those are the sort of the four R's that I'm always thinking of when when people ask uh any particular questions. What about these questions? So for instance, Dave asks, you know, did Jesus ever claim to be God? I think that's that's fascinating, and I I I get non-Christians asking me that quite a bit. 'Cause especially if they've been reading the gospels and they see Jesus he keeps on saying he's the son of God. Okay, he's the son of God. Is he God? Where did you know 'cause Christians are always saying, you know, Jesus is God. Jesus always says of himself he's the Son of the Father and He's full of the Spirit. Um so that that I've found can be a quite a a a fruitful kind of way in. I think when when people say, Oh, Jesus never claims to be God, I think you can get into a really interesting conversation about, you know, which God are we talking about here? And it sounds like Dave's got into those kinds of areas with with his friend. But I think it it gets you into the heart of the gospel and people say, Well, Jesus never claimed to be God. Ah, well, he claimed to be the Son of the Father, who has always enjoyed the love of the Father, and he's come to be our brother to invite us into that love. That's that's that's Jesus' claim, not simply to be God in the abstract. Um and all of a sudden you're you're talking about quite gospel things.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I suppose it's difficult when you know somebody wants a specific answer to their question. Yeah. Um and sometimes the answer isn't directly an answer to their question, it's kind of from a different angle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. But isn't that exactly what we see in the gospels? Yeah. Like where does Jesus ever give a straight answer to a straight question? Like where? You know, constantly it's you know, you know, what good thing must I do to inter inherit eternal life? Why do you call me good? Yeah. Like you can you can kinda almost hear Woody Allen saying saying some of Jesus' lines in in terms of what do you mean? What are you saying? And have you never read? And what you know answering questions with questions is something we're less comfortable with, but something Jesus was very comfortable with. Um not to but this is important, not to sort of deflect the question away, but to truly answer it. Um because you know, your non-Christian friend has rightly perceived that Jesus never claims to be God, in that he doesn't claim to be the most high. He claims to be the son of the most high. And so your your answer to their question, well Jesus never claims to be God, is kind of a yes and no. It's like, well, no, not in those terms. But which God are we talking about? Ah, he's the son of the Father, therefore he's fully God. Um So I'm you know, I think it's just the nature of the case that all your answers to questions will be a kind of a yes and no, will be a a reframing of terms. Um Dave also sort of talks about um you know, whether uh historical questions about the the gospel's reliability, um how do you handle that in uh in uh in evangelism? We've got another question about that as well. I think if people um have preconceptions about the Bible's being corrupted, I'm all for saying, well, how is it being corrupted? In what way? What's your evidence? What's you know if people are gonna like wittingly or unwittingly tell lies about the Bible, I'm all for clearing up the truth and and just saying, you know, actually no, that's that's that's not credible, that's not the case. Um so if if people have doubts about the authenticity of the scriptures, really what they're doing is they're making a claim that I think is false and that I think I can just try and, you know, deal with with, you know, know the manuscript evidence is good and and all this sort of stuff. At the end of the day, that's not the reason why the gospels are trustworthy. The gospels are trustworthy because they are the word of God. And you'll realize they are the word of God when God speaks to you personally and powerfully through them. That that can be the only proof that they are the word of God. But if people are gonna bring up objections to um anything, the historicity of the the the gospels or any other fact, if they're if they're going to bring up untruths, it's completely cool to, you know, straighten out those untruths. That doesn't mean you're capitulating to an evidentialist apologetic and and doesn't mean that you are all of a sudden, you know, thinking that you can stand with the unbeliever and reason neutrally from these propositions to gospel truth. It's it's just setting the record straight. Um So yeah, so Dave sort of finishes, you know, do you ever go these down these sorts of r apologetic rabbit trails, or do you just show him round your house? Um and you do both because you're in a conversation, really. But but I would I would raise those four R's. So it uh whatever whatever question somebody asks you, it it might sound completely like a red herring. But it's not, it can't be a red herring if this is Jesus Universe. If this is Jesus Universe, you could discuss red herrings and and how they preach the gospel. Like if you had time, you know. So, you know, we we we did a um a youth uh a youth group recently. I was speaking at a youth group and there was a question time afterwards, and there were all sorts of questions that were sort of fired to me that you know the teenagers thought were just you know humorous, you know, where does Jesus keep his time machine and you know, things like that. And you know, how do you know that you know you're not just a brain in a vat being prodded by a mad scientist and that sort of thing? And you know, you could just laugh those off, and and you know, probab probably it might be the wise thing to do. There's there's more important things to talk about. But there's also another way in which you could say, well, actually, no, you don't know that either, do you? And you you know, how do you know that the that the past exists? How do you know that the past exists? You might have been created five seconds ago with a memory of everything that had happened, you know, in in in the past. And so, you know, the whole world could have been created five seconds ago. We live in the matrix. We l we might be living in the matrix. We might be. So how do you know what's true? Ah, what if someone from outside the matrix breaks in? You know? And then all of a sudden you you're talking about Jesus and his incarnation, and and someone from beyond, someone you know, from the mad scientist realm, has broken in and said, Here I am, and you can touch me, feel me, investigate me. Um So even the most red herringy kind of questions, and when when you feel like you're just going down a a rabbit trail, um you can be talking about gospel stuff. You really can. Um and it's just about loving the person and and spending time with them, really.
SPEAKER_03Um Spurgeon spoke about cutting across country to the cross as soon as possible. It's just like do what you can to kind of placate them or whatever and uh cut across country to the cross.
SPEAKER_01But I think even deeper than that, it's like whatever whatever byway we're on, in the you know, we might feel that we're lost. We are in Jesus' universe. And there's some there's something even about this rabbit trail that we're on that proclaims Christ. Um not necessarily that we we instantly have to say, well, you know, at Golgotha, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Um but that yeah, the ev everything already is proclaiming Christ. And we're just sitting with our friend and and pointing to that.
SPEAKER_03Good. Okay, well hopefully that's uh helped Dave. Uh Howard Nolan says uh he could only hear the first half of this, he couldn't download the rest. Uh sorry about that, but maybe try again. Uh but what I find comes up today is the reliability of the accounts of Jesus, the Gospels and the New Testament themselves, and the arguments of the likes of Dan Brown and Bart Ehrman filter into our culture. Surely that's where apologetics plays some role.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I and that does come up a little bit. I mean it was fascinating when Dan Brown's, you know, Da Vinci Code came out. Suddenly I was talking with like non-Christians about the Council of Nicaea. Suddenly my friends I remember just remember there was um one journey, I was playing cricket and um we're playing away from home, and we spent most of this sort of hour and a half's journey talking about the Council of Nicaea. Thanks to Dan Brown. Well, so thank you, Dan Brown. Um you know, you got people talking about these sorts of issues. And again, I'd just sort of say, look, if if people tell stupid lies about the Bible, then it's yeah, set the record straight. You know, and just you know, if somebody, you know, says the history was like this, uh you know, it's perfectly reasonable to say no, the history was not like that, and let me show you how. I don't think at that stage you're sort of capitulating to a a sort of a classical apologetics, you're just setting the record straight uh on on something that they've said about the Bible. So absolutely correct them on on the sorts of ridiculous things that Dan Brown said, and s some of the not quite so ridiculous, but but still ridiculous things that that that Bart Ehrman says uh about the scriptures. But at the end of the day, on the scriptures, the only thing that's gonna, you know, convince people that that they are the Word of God is that God speaks to them with living power through that word. But quite interestingly, you know, on those Gospels, um I often say to non-Christians, why don't you read the Gospels that that Dan Brown is talking about, you know, the Gospel of Thomas or something, these Gnostic Gospels that were written centuries after the events that they are meant to be narrating in a language that Jesus never spoke, speaking of, you know, pictures of God and salvation and women that are against all reason and sanity and you know, and against everything that the Bible has stood for, certainly the Old Testament. And you know, so you've you've got these things, and they are a brilliant kind of compare and contrast to the actual Gospels. And and just get people to read the you know, the Gospel of the Talking Cross, or you know, any any of these sort of nuts kind of documents. And what's interesting about those is when you read them, you realise what happens when people do just make stuff up. If you were, you know, sitting at a distance of of a couple of centuries and you you didn't live in Jerusalem and you were going to make up the events of Jesus' life or the teaching of Jesus, um, you would come up with the Gnostic Gospels, and they are just crazy. And and then, okay, now read Luke's Gospel, which just begins on Luke's own terms. He says, Look, I'm just wr writing an eyewitness testimony, I've gathered together all the eyewitnesses, I'm putting them together into into this account. And then he goes on to to describe, you know, scores and scores and scores of place names, scores and scores and scores of of uh people names, um the leaders of of various you know parts of the ancient world and all that sort of stuff. And just do a compare and contrast. But at that point what I'm doing is just asking them to open up the Bible and and sort of read it for themselves. Um and again I I I think at what you're always trying to do is to have this top-down apologetic approach from the Word of God down to you. Um don't you see that this has divine authority? So absolutely um try to clear up any misunderstandings of the Bibles, any lies that are told about the scriptures and how they came to us, clear those up. That's cool. Um but get scripture into people's hands so they can they can see it for themselves.
SPEAKER_03And those four R's, you know, very helpful there as well. You know, ask them questions and uh getting getting them to sort of state their position and uh question them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, how do they know what they think they know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well Dave Kaye says he enjoyed the podcast, but he didn't take a selfie. Dave As I reflect on it, I think there may be three different approaches to the relation of evangelism to apologetics. Ooh, three's good. Number one, positive. Come over to my house, it's built on rock. Acts 17, 2 and 3. Or two, negative, defensive. I'll just dismantle that wrecking ball by being wielded by Richard Dawkins against our house. Reference to 2 Corinthians 10 5. Or the third negative offensive response uh your house is built on sand and it won't hold up. Acts 17, 22, 31. It says, really, we need all three. What we have to be careful of is going over to the sand and saying, I'll just build our house here. And it'll look much the same and people won't need to travel as far.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Exactly. I th I think that's very well put. So do we have the so the three the three approaches are positive come over to my house, it's built on rock. Negative we stop people from trying to wreck our house. That's the negative defensive, then there's negative offensive, you go over to their house and you know, poke around and see how rickety it is. That kind of thing. Um I th I think, you know, in any evangelistic encounter, it's it's going to involve those sorts of things. Of course it is, because you know, as as as much as you simply want to proclaim Christ, well they're gonna come back at you with something. Um So that's absolutely true, but I think um Dave very correctly says what we what we mustn't do is go over to the house built built on sand and s you know, and on their own foundation. Build on their foundation. That's you know, that's not gonna work. And it does need to be this top-down thing. Um and interestingly, he he sort of made a follow-up comment, I think, um later on. He was he was thinking some more about uh 2 Corinthians ten. Uh 2 Corinthians 10 is uh all about, you know, we demolish strongholds. That's it uh uh 2 Corinthians 10 verse 4. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. That's interesting. On the contrary, they have divine power out these weapons, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought uh captive to make it obedient to Christ. So, yeah, I mean that that's um that i that is quite a a kind of a manifesto for you know, proclaiming that yeah, that there is sinking sand in the world.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I guess when we go over and we build our house on on their sand, as it were, you know, that that is a little bit like trying to use apologetics to try and authenticate Jesus who Jesus is, or you know, or we use science to try and prove that God created the world.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Whereas, you know, although that's perhaps viable, it's not the right way around. You know, we've got to um I mean basically it comes down to a heart thing rather than a mind thing, because a lot of people come to these things with with their mind and although that's not something that's completely you know, you you don't forget your mind.
SPEAKER_01No, no, you don't.
SPEAKER_03Um you know it's it's it's a heart and Spirit thing.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Fundamentally.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah. People don't want to believe. They really don't want to believe. And if and so often what we try to do is to convince them merely of the truth of Christianity, and you know, Jesus is Lord, really, really is Lord. As though we're backing into them into a corner trying to get their arm up behind their back until they squeal, Okay, he's Lord, he's Lord, fine.
SPEAKER_03Have you ever tried that one?
SPEAKER_01Kind of a Nehemiah style uh I don't know. Pull the beard out. Pull the beard out. Evangelism. Um, I'm not really built for that. But um but yeah, if it if it's like that, is that going to elicit faith in the unbeliever? I don't think it'll elicit faith. I don't think it'll elicit loving trust of Jesus in that way.
SPEAKER_03You know, sometimes you can answer their question quite well, and you you know you complete their question, they they go to a different one and ask something completely different trying to come at it from a different angle. Uh my wife, when she came to Christ, you know, beforehand, she had loads and loads of questions that she was trying to get the answer to and then she got saved, and then you know, she didn't she wasn't really interested in you know all the questions that she had before. Yeah. Sh sh you know, she may have still had questions, but uh she didn't need to know the answer.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And and doesn't that sort of match up with what we were saying about Jesus, you know, very rarely giving a straight answer to a straight question. Yeah. Well he knows what's in people. You know, he n he he knows what are the genuine questions and what aren't. So it's very interesting to see how few questions he answers on their own terms. You know, how many questions are really? You know, it's just just fascinating in Luke 10, where we get that psychological insight into the teacher of the law, you know, wanting to justify himself, he asked another question.
SPEAKER_03Um there's something about questions which kind of narrow the framing, you know, narrow the the point that people are trying to come from. Yes. And by asking another question and everything, you kind of you know break out of the single-pointedness of the question.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, exactly. And and and then it becomes more like a you know, an actual conversation with you know. Who would have thought who would have thought that evangelism could take that form rather than, you know. It's not it's not as though someone wants to come up to you and press the button marked, you know, this the problem of suffering, and then you just belch out, you know, your your answer that people don't want that. They do want this this interaction, this relation. But I I think I I really like what Dave's saying in terms of, yeah, evangelism will involve all sorts of things. There's the positive, just proclamation of Jesus, there's the defending against attacks on Christianity, and there's the pointing out of weak spots in the non-Christian. But Dave also said he sort of uh uh wrote this sort of follow-up comment, and he said he'd been thinking more about 2 Corinthians 10, and he noticed that, you know, it says the weapons that we fight with are not the weapons of the world. Um and actually, you know, in 2 Corinthians 6, verse 7, he talks about the the weapons of divine power that have been given to them. And of course, in in 2 Corinthians 3 to 5, you know, that is the gospel, the this new covenant life-giving words that switches the lights on for unbelievers, and therefore that's that's what he's into. He's an ambassador for Christ, God making his appeal to people. So absolutely, um 2 Corinthians 10 is there to say that we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. But we don't do that by jumping onto the sand with them and agreeing to their terms of arguments and using those terms of arguments. Actually, what we do is with the Word of God say, actually, that doesn't make sense now, does it? So I think, yeah, Dave's absolutely right that that evangelism will always involve those three movements, proclaiming, defending against attacks, and pointing out weak spots in the in the opponent. If we want to, you know, speak in those sort of adversarial terms, which we probably don't, but um certainly well Paul does, so maybe we do. That uh you know, we we are at war in in in some senses. But I I I think let me let me let me do it like this. Let me let me take uh something I read on the internet just today as an example of how I think uh apologetics and evangelism works. There was something online at uh Huff Oh no, it's it wasn't Huffing the Post, it was the The Atlantic. There's an uh an article by a guy called Crispin Sartwell. I'm not sure he gave this article this headline. It's it's usually not the um the authors who give the the the headlines, but it's called Irrational Atheism.
SPEAKER_03And it's all about um It's got the tagline not believing in God isn't always based on reasoned arguments, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which is refreshing to hear, isn't it? At last. At last, at last somebody's admitting what Christians have always known. Christians have always known that, you know, however loudly an atheist bangs the rational drum, what is animating that? You know, even as they bang the rational drum, their heart is animating that. They have a love for rationalism, they have a faith commitment to a certain view of the universe. And it is a faith commitment that cannot be proved on its own terms. It can't, it really can't. Um So here's an atheist who's just coming out and admitting that, and that is just so refreshing to hear. Um he says um early on in the article, he says atheism embodies a whole picture of the world, offering explanations about its most general organization to the character of individual events. So atheism embodies a whole picture of the world. Then he says, ironically, this is similar to the totalizing worldview of religion. Neither atheism or religion can be shown to be true or false by science, or indeed by any rational technique. Whether theistic or atheistic, they are all matters of faith, stances taken up by tiny creatures in an infinitely rich environment. And he goes on to say, Well I have taken a leap of atheist faith. Now that's really refreshing to hear. Because so often the the sort of the new atheism of sort of a Dawkins or a Daniel Dennett, they are very much sort of logical posationalists, modernists, and and just want to take the rational high ground. How do we respond to that? You know, if if we want to, in the words of 2 Corinthians 10, demolish arguments, how do we demolish that kind of argument? Do we sort of do it on its own terms? And I think so often um the new atheists falsely say, Oh, you faith heads. You know, you have faith. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. Now that is a false definition, that's a false argument, it's a false definition of faith. It's nowhere in the Bible. Um but so often what we want to do is to say, no, you're wrong. You're wrong, Mr. Atheist. Um, we uh we believe because of evidence. And then all of a sudden we're we're playing on their terms. No, we do. We do believe in you know, a as a response to evidence. But as soon as we kind of make that step and said, it's about evidence I think we've started to st uh stand on sand at that point. Because in the Bible, what is it that corresponds to faith? In the Bible, what corresponds to faith is the Word of God, the preaching of the gospel, the gift of Christ, the grace of God in Jesus. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. So in the Bible, what it is that actually corresponds to faith is not so much evidence, it's the gospel, it's the word, it's preaching. Um it might seem the obvious thing to do, you know, the non-Christian says you know, faith is belief in the absence of evidence. It might seem the obvious obvious thing to do, to climb onto their terms and not reframe the question, just say, No, no, there's all sorts of evidence. But I think instantly we then start playing by their rules. And I don't think we want we want to do that. I think far more than than saying to the atheists, No, Christians also believe in evidence, I think what we what we really need to do is to say, no no no, you atheists are also people of faith. Which is what this this article does. And it's so refreshing, you know, atheists are also people of faith. They've they've got these totalizing worldviews. Um they've got a whole picture of the world that they live by. Of course they do. It's it's a faith position. So I I think that's that's a brilliant admission, and I think that's, you know, that's something I I will point my atheist friends to, you know, in the future. But then what's fascinating is in this article, um, Chrisman Sartwell finishes by by saying, Well, why why is he taking this leap of atheist faith? Like why did why is why is he an unbeliever? And it's to do with the the problem of evil, the question of suffering. He says that genuinely bad things have happened to me in my life. One of my brothers was murdered, another committed suicide. I've experienced addiction and mental illness, and I, like you, have watched horrors unfold all over the globe. I don't, I can't believe this to be the best of all possible worlds. Now I don't know, you know, you see he's picking that up from uh uh Leibniz and Spinoza, um sort of philosophers, um but that's certainly not the only position that you know Christians have ever taken that this is the best of all possible worlds, but but you know, that's what he's reacting against. I can't believe that this is the best of all possible world worlds. I think there is genuinely unredeemed pointless pain. Some of it is mine. By not believing in God I keep faith with the world's indifference. I love its beauty, get this, I love its beauty, I hate its suffering. I think both are perfectly real because I experience them both all the time. I do not see any reason to suspend judgment. I'm here and I commit, that is, I commit to my atheist faith. I'm perfectly sincere and definite in my belief that there is no God. I can see that there could be comfort in believing otherwise, believing that all the suffering and death make sense, that everyone gets what they deserve, and that existence works out in the end. But to believe that would be to betray my actual experiences. And even without the aid of reasoned arguments, that's reason enough not to believe. So I'd love to have a beer with uh with Crispin and just like talk to him about this because I I think that actually his experience does not make sense on the atheist worldview. He says he loves the beauty of this world and he hates the suffering of this world. Um and he thinks that both are perfectly real. I don't think he thinks that they're very real at all. If he if he thinks that all of reality is, you know, time and chance acting on matter. If this has all come from slime plus selfishness plus, you know and here we all are, slime plus struggle plus selfishness equals beauty and evil? No no no. If it's just slime plus struggle plus selfishness, then that's all it is. And beauty and suffering are not really real. They're just surface level stuff. Um so I'd I'd I'd you know, I mean C. S. Lewis, you know, I often, you know, use this example. C. S. Lewis says that, you know, if you'd never ever seen a straight line in your life, then you've never ever seen a crooked line either. If every line you've ever seen is wavy, then lines aren't wavy or straight, they're just lines. Because there's there's nothing straight against which to judge a wavy line. We look at a a world that is crooked. But how do we know it's crooked? And why do we call it crooked? Surely it's just life, right? You know? Sometimes sometimes you get lucky in the l lottery of life, sometimes you don't, but nothing's beautiful or evil or suffer, you know. Nothing's evil. Nothing's wrong if everything's random, right? Everything's random and nothing's wrong. Not really. So I I would just want to encourage Christians that look, you've got you've got these experiences of evil. I want to tell you about a good God that gives you the right to call good good. And the right to call evil evil. Um And it seems like I don't know, he it seems like he hasn't kind of encountered that. It seems like all he's really coun encountered is is kind of this this belief in karma that, you know, everyone just gets what they deserve and and all that kind of stuff, and that there could be no unjust suffering if there is a God. Well that you know, that's that is a lot of religions out there in the world, but it's not Christianity. There is unjust suffering. There is innocent suffering. At the heart of the universe, there is the Lamb who was slain. Um so I just I just want to talk more with him about yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I want to do that sort of negative dismantling of his arguments. Um but on the on the basis of, well, come on, your experience of the world only makes sense on a Christian worldview. So you know, and then just proclaim that to him. That's that's that's the way around I think evangelism should happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um so this kind of we're kind of followed up our episode from last time. If there are any more questions, then uh do submit them. Okay, so the web address for this episode is revivalmedia.org slash TEP74. You can leave comments on that page there. You can sign up to this podcast via email, and there's a link to the iTunes listing where you can leave us a rating and review. We'd be very happy if you'll do that, and we'll read it out online if you leave us a review.
SPEAKER_01Even if it's awful. Even if it's dreadful. Nothing about my nose, though.
SPEAKER_03Got the perfect lows for radio.
SPEAKER_01I've got the perfect nose for radio, that's true. For podcasting. Except it keeps hitting the microphone. It's dreadful. Next week. So next week, yes. Next week we've got Andrew Wilson. Okay, who is Andrew Wilson? Who is Andrew Wilson? He's a uh pastor and elder at uh King's Church Eastbourne, the author of many books, including uh Unbreakable, a new book about uh scripture, about Jesus and uh how he saw the scriptures and therefore how we should see the scriptures. Uh so really looking forward to talking to him about his book, about the Bible, about writing, about apologetics, evangelism, the life of the local church. Be great.
SPEAKER_03So big longer episode next week. Okay, thanks very much for listening, and uh see you next time. Bye.